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Old 2008-11-29, 16:44   Link #101
Tiran86
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Also true.
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Old 2008-11-29, 17:35   Link #102
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Why couldn't the situation between Kitamura and Ami be as simple as the fact that Kitamura isn't interested in her romantically or sexually and only wants to remain her friend? Not every heterosexual man chases after every heterosexual woman he knows. Men can be just as discriminating in their romantic partner choices as women can be.
He's what, 16, 17? At that age, practically all blokes think about jumping the bones of any female they come across (family excluded, natch. No incest malarky here boyo!). It's the hormones. Sure, he's almost certainly not interested romantically, but given her looks and body I very much doubt she hasn't given him a boner or two.

Then again, given his apparent lack of embaressment at showing the goods to the ladies, maybe he's just really, really self-disciplined.
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Old 2008-11-29, 18:35   Link #103
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Why couldn't the situation between Kitamura and Ami be as simple as the fact that Kitamura isn't interested in her romantically or sexually and only wants to remain her friend? Not every heterosexual man chases after every heterosexual woman he knows. Men can be just as discriminating in their romantic partner choices as women can be.
Where the heck do I imply he's gunning for Ami?

I'm saying he's showing off and relying on his reputation to be pardoned for his behavior, so in a way he's two-faced like Ami.
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Old 2008-11-30, 11:55   Link #104
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Where the heck do I imply he's gunning for Ami?
That was how I understood what you wrote.

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I'm saying he's showing off and relying on his reputation to be pardoned for his behavior, so in a way he's two-faced like Ami.
That's not the impression I got from your original post, but I understand what you're saying now.
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Old 2008-12-01, 02:05   Link #105
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I wrote a post on Ami's complexity. Please read and comment on it here.
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Old 2008-12-01, 18:13   Link #106
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I wrote a post on Ami's complexity. Please read and comment on it here.
That's pretty damn good!

I just hope that's what the anime will go for, I wouldn't want to see a character as deep as I think Ami is, to just be on the sidelines forever.
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Old 2008-12-02, 12:13   Link #107
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She is a teaser, not a heroine material in the narrative. I don't see how she go beyond what she is now.
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Old 2008-12-02, 12:26   Link #108
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Wow especially after 9 I absolutely utterly love ami to death! I hope she becomes more romanticly involved with ryuuji... she deserves it even though she seems like she's teasing a lot it does seem like she has geniune feelings
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Old 2008-12-02, 15:18   Link #109
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She is a teaser, not a heroine material in the narrative. I don't see how she go beyond what she is now.
Why is it that authors never seem to have the guts to make supporting characters actually pair with a lead character for once?
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Old 2008-12-02, 15:47   Link #110
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The easy answer is that it isn't the story the author wants to tell. This story is about two oddball somewhat broken people with their dysfunctional friends. It isn't about "guts" when a 'choose the girl' scenario isn't what the story is about.

That question makes more sense when critiquing anime adaptations of eroge. There's where lack of guts comes into play - over and over and over. Many of them even take surveys to choose the "most popular girl" rather than the most interesting or the most off-beat choice.
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Old 2008-12-02, 15:50   Link #111
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Why is it that authors never seem to have the guts to make supporting characters actually pair with a lead character for once?
By their nature, supporting characters don't get as much development and time in the spotlight during the story. If you paired the main character off with a supporting character, you'd lose some of the focus on the relationship, unless you slowly turned the love interest into a main character. In which case, why didn't you just do that in the first place?

Plus, a lot of it has to do with expectations. You have people like me who like things at least somewhat unexpected, but than you have a lot of people who expect the main pair to get together and are actually dissappointed when it doesn't happen.

And Vexx's point is true as well.
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Old 2008-12-02, 16:04   Link #112
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Vexx, actually the most popular can be thge most interesting as well. Since in a lot of such questioning the purposed main girl of the story looses (like in Kimikiss, Mao and Eriko (the supreme goddess of Kimikiss, noone can ever beat her in ratings even Mao falls short against her) are the most popular ones though they were not 'main' heroine girls of Kimikiss game).

The most popular actually means that the girl does have something else to offer. Not always, but the fact that usually in such polls the main (and rather dull) heroines looses quite a number of times tells us that such popularity polls are not as simple as they can look from the first glance.

It is not always that those girls have something deeper. But they are much more captivating than the supposed main leads. Even in manga we have a few situations like that like in School Rumble Eri and Yakumo beat Tenma (supposed main female) in 4-5 times bigger numbers or Hina beat Nagi and other characters (from Hayate) so many times over and over again that it makes no contest eventually. You just know Hina will win.

Are Yakumo, Eri or Hina deeper, more complex than Tenma or Nagi? (well ok, even a a bit more intelligent monkey has more brains than Tenma but Nagi is not that stupid surely) It is hard to tell. But they do make spectacular characters.

So why not going with that rather than listening to never ending grumbles about why the most popular character was shafted for the sake of boring heroine. It works. And increases popularity and gains as a plus.

Well in Ichigo 100% that didn't work but again mostly because horrible ending build-up and total shaft of others characters out of sudden.
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Old 2008-12-02, 16:33   Link #113
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Probably not the best place to discuss it, but Junpei was moving towards choosing the girl he did for nearly half of Ichigo 100%. Maybe not as nicely developed as Toradora is, but its still there.

I won't argue the characters getting shafted though, since quite a few did.
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Old 2008-12-02, 17:24   Link #114
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Vexx, actually the most popular can be thge most interesting as well. Since in a lot of such questioning the purposed main girl of the story looses (like in Kimikiss, Mao and Eriko (the supreme goddess of Kimikiss, noone can ever beat her in ratings even Mao falls short against her) are the most popular ones though they were not 'main' heroine girls of Kimikiss game).

The most popular actually means that the girl does have something else to offer. Not always, but the fact that usually in such polls the main (and rather dull) heroines looses quite a number of times tells us that such popularity polls are not as simple as they can look from the first glance.

It is not always that those girls have something deeper. But they are much more captivating than the supposed main leads. Even in manga we have a few situations like that like in School Rumble Eri and Yakumo beat Tenma (supposed main female) in 4-5 times bigger numbers or Hina beat Nagi and other characters (from Hayate) so many times over and over again that it makes no contest eventually. You just know Hina will win.

Are Yakumo, Eri or Hina deeper, more complex than Tenma or Nagi? (well ok, even a a bit more intelligent monkey has more brains than Tenma but Nagi is not that stupid surely) It is hard to tell. But they do make spectacular characters.

So why not going with that rather than listening to never ending grumbles about why the most popular character was shafted for the sake of boring heroine. It works. And increases popularity and gains as a plus.

Well in Ichigo 100% that didn't work but again mostly because horrible ending build-up and total shaft of others characters out of sudden.
Yes, they *can* be, but I think what you're missing in my comment is that the japanese otaku don't necessarily have the same tastes I do - so the "most popular" girl is less often my preference (we're talking harem "choose the girl" anime here). They don't necessarily have "more to offer" - they just match what more japanese viewers seem to want and I'm not particularly fond of their aggregate preferences.

I just find it annoying that typically all the character archetypes do have fans but there are certain types that rarely ever "win the guy". The moral of that is that my tastes don't seem to match "what the otaku hordes want".
So it goes .... and it tends to lead me to focus more energy in other types of stories (like this one) with more complex threads.

I don't even see much comparison between Toradora and a "typical harem romance". This seems much more of a "mesh relationship" story than a simple "choose the girl" story.
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Old 2008-12-02, 22:01   Link #115
physics223
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It's a long shot that she'll end up with Ryuuji, but it would be great to see her change and finally be honest with her feelings toward him. Ryuuji doesn't look at her because he always thinks he's mocking her. But what if she really got serious?

That's what I want to see. Minori and Taiga are fine and all, but Ami is the most complex character of the show.
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Old 2008-12-02, 22:44   Link #116
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Well Ami is getting her epiphany, that is she can find people that she can be herself with. That is her story in current narrative, not as romantic interest of Ryuji. Her role is to instigate and push Taiga and Ryuji especially to realise where their respective feelings should go to. Minorin and Kitamura is some sort of villain in the story, an obstacle where 2 principal players overcome to reach their own utopia with each other.

The title already tell you big time it is between Taiga and Ryuji. That's the goal, now what we see now is how they get there. It is not the goal, it is the in between that what makes this story rocks.
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Old 2008-12-03, 01:40   Link #117
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Tiran86, it could have easily went to other girl, because if you look at it the other girl could have won and then you would also have those details that would support that it was thought out and visible. I remember reading that author herself was affected by popularity polls and isntead of originally planned ending went with other one. But it was not as far reaching as poeple make it out to be since the other girl had just as much those minor keys thrown for things going her way. The ending build up was horribly rushed, not to mention that other characters and that other girl got shafted to the side out of blue.

Thats what make Ichigo's ending so arguable and referred as 'bad' by many, not just the girl that lost fans. It reallyhad a bad build-up.

Anyways this should be about Toradora.

Vexx, why some heroines are more pupolar than others? Is it really because some archetype being more popular between otakus?

I have seen a lot of genky girsl win and a lot of tsundere girls win, a lot of silent girls win and so on... The archetypes are different and yet they win over the archetype which may have won in another game.

If everything would be predestined to happen based on the archetype then all polls should be won by the same archetype as well. But they are different. So what creates the difference? Why does some moe girls archetypes loose in some polls and others win?

I think it is part of game's situation and setting rather than just pre-justice of otaku's. Meaning that they do react to the way it is build and can be a rather good guide to follow up.
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Old 2008-12-03, 01:42   Link #118
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Probably not the best place to discuss it, but Junpei was moving towards choosing the girl he did for nearly half of Ichigo 100%. Maybe not as nicely developed as Toradora is, but its still there.

I won't argue the characters getting shafted though, since quite a few did.
Not to derail the thread anymore than it already has, but I gotta say I agree with this statement completely. The hints about the ending girl could be felt ever since halfway through the length of the story. And I was rooting for poor Satsuki... Still, even then, I found the ending of the manga quite satisfying.

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I have seen a lot of genky girsl win and a lot of tsundere girls win, a lot of silent girls win and so on... The archetypes are different and yet they win over the archetype which may have won in another game.
I'm still to find a "harem" anime/manga where the more outgoing/feisty female wins in the end. Probably my real life preference, I guess.
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Old 2008-12-03, 01:53   Link #119
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BetoJR, as i said about ichigo - there were hints about the other ending just as much if you look carefully. And if the other girl would have won then others would be saying that it was also hinted from the beginning of the show.

Personally I was rooting for Satsuki too.

And yes in manga/anime's (not in games though) a strong outgoing female character do rarely win , unless she is a lead heroine.

In the game polls, however, strong outgoing females do win. It's just that when animating it directors do tend to go with the 'original' heroine (who is usually a 'perfect waifu' stereotype). Thats what I think is worser than just following the popularity polls.

If it is not an adaptation and is original then it comes to the author's preference. The strong/outgoing girls tend to loose here.
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Old 2008-12-03, 02:10   Link #120
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Of course, it would also be hinted at the other girl's outcome, as she was the one that fit the role of the "promised girl" and "perfect waifu" to a tee. But I, for one, found it extremely interesting that this particular archetype actually lost, this time.

Maybe that's why I like Toradora! so much: even if, on a superficial level, we can label the characters, they are not all that easy to pigeon-hole, once you get past the first impressions.
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