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Old 2008-12-03, 17:05   Link #221
lmd_84
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Care to explain the 'stupid' comment? You use that icon, then continue to say that Maka is going to end up an all-rounder. What am I missing here?
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Old 2008-12-03, 17:49   Link #222
Stream
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The full text, maybe?

The smiley says "I'm with stupid" - meaning "I agree."
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Old 2008-12-03, 17:57   Link #223
Iron Maw
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Originally Posted by Stream View Post
Mary has a version of it too (the internal generation used to get rid of the snake), and Justin certainly has something like that. You inferred it, but I don't believe that's the case.
Marie, didn't do anything similiar to B*S and Stein, nor did anyone state as such. I wouldn't be surprised if "internal generation" could be used by most people at Shibusen contrast B*S and Stein's ability which has been said only few can use.

Justin's "Silvergun" seem much closer to performing a Resonance than what Stein does, but there's too little info on that to say.

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Moreover, speaking of having a large soul:
Spoiler for From the manga, but it's hardly a spoiler - just a picture of Maka with a large soul.:
I'm aware of that.

But that was after Soul helped bring out her "latent potenial". My point is B*S's Wavelength had been at similiar size from the beginning, not that Maka's own Wavelength wouldn't grow overtime.

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I'm just saying the distinctions you seem to be making aren't the ones you ought to be making. There are implications in them that aren't quite right.
My wording likely a bit off, what I said though has been supported by the manga.

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Yeauch, I forgot about that scene. For what it's worth, Black☆Star was being much weaker than usual in that fight, but I'll have to agree, it does look unlikely that Maka will beat Death if he's that strong.
Kid had been holding back in the fight until last few minutes though.


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Originally Posted by Reincarnated View Post
^ Okay I have to against the theory "a large soul" or sumthing. But if you're talking about a large soul WAVELENGTH , then I do believe. Stein and B*S have a talent for enchant their wavelength even without weapon. Maka has that large soul-wavelength because of Soul's wavelength amplified hers, while B*S and Stein doesn't need to do that.
That's what I was taking about, I'II simply just call it "wavelength".

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Originally Posted by Stream View Post
Soul amplified Maka's wavelength without Maka wielding Soul? (Look at the right side of the picture again, Maka is clearly not holding anything. In fact, we clearly see Soul transforming into a scythe and Maka grabbing Soul later, on the left side of the page.) That's impressive. So, the sidetext displayed later saying "This is the strength of Maka" is off too?

You sure it wasn't just that Soul gave Maka the push she needed to tap into her own soul wavelength? Because, tbh, that's what it looks like to me.
Yes, it is her own power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lmd_84
Even taking soul wavelengths into account might not change much: Kid has Soul Perception at least as good as Maka's (they're the only ones of the kids to sense two particular souls in a later manga chapter), plus the manga has recently shown.
Actually, Maka's beats Kid's as she was the only one who was able to sense Stein and Marie in the magnetic field during the Brew arc.

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I would like to know more about the supposed differences in Maka's soul wavelength. What is it that gives her that particular advantage? State of mind, or some innate characteristic?
It's one of differences is probably tied to her strong Soul Perception.

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Originally Posted by Stream View Post
Because Maka's been forced into fighting people unarmed before and probably will be forced into it again.
The only times she's fought unarmed was when she and Soul had damaged their synchronzation with each other before the Free fight, and when B*S and her had their spat. Being able to fight like that isn't as big of deal as you might think it is, a Meister and Weapon Combo, is far more powerful than fighting on our own. Doubt that Stein would have defeated Medusa wth out Spirit, or, B*S would not be as strong as he is now without Tsubaki.

Besides, B*S being able to attack with his Wavelength is what separates him from Maka with her Demonslayer Wavelength and Soul Perception. and Kid with his Shinigami powers. The three are meant to develop differently, and will likely end up equal in the end.


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Because all the characters seem to need to fix those issues that've been plaguing them. Maka's been having issues over her unarmed combat ability,
Her issue was more her strength in general compared to B*S at least, that's how I saw it. Her "Demon Hunter" was her way getting that strength, just has how B*S has now gain control over Masamune.

Last edited by Iron Maw; 2008-12-03 at 18:24.
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Old 2008-12-03, 20:58   Link #224
Stream
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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Marie, didn't do anything similiar to B*S and Stein, nor did anyone state as such. I wouldn't be surprised if "internal generation" could be used by most people at Shibusen contrast B*S and Stein's ability which has been said only few can use.
You could be right, but it seems to me that internal generation is an ability more specific to Marie. It seems to have a lightning/electricity motif to it, which fits Mary to a T, Mjollnir being her name and all. Plus, since it's a lightning-based ability, I think it more or less has to be powered off of soul wavelength.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Justin's "Silvergun" seem much closer to performing a Resonance than what Stein does, but there's too little info on that to say.
It's a safe bet, though.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
I'm aware of that.

But that was after Soul helped bring out her "latent potenial". My point is B*S's Wavelength had been at similiar size from the beginning, not that Maka's own Wavelength wouldn't grow overtime.
And my point is that Maka should be capable of it now or sometime in the future. She's starting to satisfy the preconditions.

BTW: It's perfectly possible (I'd even say probable) that Black☆Star's soul wavelength at the beginning was less than Maka's current soul wavelength, but still greater than the average person's.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Actually, Maka's beats Kid's as she was the only one who was able to sense Stein and Marie in the magnetic field during the Brew arc.
Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
It's one of differences is probably tied to her strong Soul Perception.
Possibly, but for all we know it could just be tied to the Witch Hunter class of abilities, so Stein would fit the bill too.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
The only times she's fought unarmed was when she and Soul had damaged their synchronzation with each other before the Free fight, and when B*S and her had their spat. Being able to fight like that isn't as big of deal as you might think it is, a Meister and Weapon Combo, is far more powerful than fighting on our own. Doubt that Stein would have defeated Medusa wth out Spirit, or, B*S would not be as strong as he is now without Tsubaki.
There's more than that.
Spoiler for Manga spoiler, I guess.:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Besides, B*S being able to attack with his Wavelength is what separates him from Maka with her Demonslayer Wavelength and Soul Perception. and Kid with his Shinigami powers. The three are meant to develop differently, and will likely end up equal in the end.
They are meant to develop differently, but I don't think that precludes them from gaining new abilities in different fields. I mean, Black☆Star becomes a sword fighter later on, which was outside his preexisting specialization.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Her issue was more her strength in general compared to B*S at least, that's how I saw it. Her "Demon Hunter" was her way getting that strength, just has how B*S has now gain control over Masamune.
I don't think it was so much the Demon Hunter that was her way of getting that strength as much as it was her own rise in soul wavelength. At any rate, envying Black☆Star does say something because it's not so much the strength of the bond between Black☆Star and Tsubaki that she envies as much as she envies Black☆Star's own strength. A good portion of it is emotional, to be sure, how she envies the way Black☆Star can be sure of his own path and let the devil take the rules, but I think a good part of it is literal too. Maka wanted the strength to avoid having Soul get hurt. (The same, Soul wants the strength to avoid having Maka get hurt, which is why he, similarly, envies Justin. Sacrificing your body, while a nice gesture, doesn't really help.) The type of strength that it requires for Maka to be able to fight without having Soul get hurt is the type of strength for Maka not to have to rely on Soul, for her to be able to fight by herself without him. That doesn't mean Maka and Soul intend to just fight solo, but that they want to be able to fight solo when it's called for, so they won't be helpless without each other and they won't have to put each other at risk.

Also, the ability to release a soul wavelength unarmed requires a strong soul wavelength, which she now possesses, and the ability to pay careful attention to one's own soul. Black☆Star has had the former from the beginning and does the latter naturally by virtue of his egomaniacal megalomania, but Maka seems to be starting to fit the bill in her own way too. Maka does have a large soul wavelength now, and as for sensing her own soul, well... We've seen Maka look at her own soul in the Crona fight, and there have been incidents later too, ESPECIALLY in the Clown arc, where we see Maka's awareness of her own soul. Moreover, Maka has a very capable Soul Perception which she can use to look at herself. Plus we've seen her release her own soul wavelength now (and that was practically an attack by itself, the way it blew crap out of the way), so it really seems to me like she's only a short step away from being able to fight unarmed now.
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Old 2008-12-03, 22:41   Link #225
Iron Maw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stream View Post
You could be right, but it seems to me that internal generation is an ability more specific to Marie. It seems to have a lightning/electricity motif to it, which fits Mary to a T, Mjollnir being her name and all. Plus, since it's a lightning-based ability, I think it more or less has to be powered off of soul wavelength.
I think the "lighting" was just an effect for her. If anyone else could do it they would probably have a special effect for them, like with the Soul Projections, (i.e Maka's Wings, Justin's Cross etc.)

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It's a safe bet, though.
Maybe.

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And my point is that Maka should be capable of it now or sometime in the future. She's starting to satisfy the preconditions.
Oh, she is capable of it now, this isn't like what happenend with BREW and Kid.

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BTW: It's perfectly possible (I'd even say probable) that Black☆Star's soul wavelength at the beginning was less than Maka's current soul wavelength, but still greater than the average person's.
Who knows?


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Possibly, but for all we know it could just be tied to the Witch Hunter class of abilities, so Stein would fit the bill too.
I dunno from the test the Shinigami gave at the beginning of the manga/anime, that did not look like the case and Stein is like a combination of Maka and B*S.

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There's more than that.
Spoiler for Manga spoiler, I guess.:
Spoiler for manga:


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They are meant to develop differently, but I don't think that precludes them from gaining new abilities in different fields. I mean, Black☆Star becomes a sword fighter later on, which was outside his preexisting specialization.
I agree with that, what I mean is that I don't want them becoming clones of each other. Gaining skill in different fields fine as long as they don't lose what makes them unique. I've stated before that I personally see Maka learning Stein's ability to maniuplate Wavelength of others and her own, allowing her nullfy attacks and be able to match quite a bit of Weapons. This supposedly requires a great understanding of Souls and a strong Soul Perception, Maka easily the best at that in her generation.

B*S used a Ninja Blade which like a Short Sword so, using a Sword later won't be too new to him, and it's more Tsubaki's ability than his.

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I don't think it was so much the Demon Hunter that was her way of getting that strength as much as it was her own rise in soul wavelength. At any rate, envying Black☆Star does say something because it's not so much the strength of the bond between Black☆Star and Tsubaki that she envies as much as she envies Black☆Star's own strength. A good portion of it is emotional, to be sure, how she envies the way Black☆Star can be sure of his own path and let the devil take the rules, but I think a good part of it is literal too. Maka wanted the strength to avoid having Soul get hurt. (The same, Soul wants the strength to avoid having Maka get hurt, which is why he, similarly, envies Justin. Sacrificing your body, while a nice gesture, doesn't really help.) The type of strength that it requires for Maka to be able to fight without having Soul get hurt is the type of strength for Maka not to have to rely on Soul, for her to be able to fight by herself without him. That doesn't mean Maka and Soul intend to just fight solo, but that they want to be able to fight solo when it's called for, so they won't be helpless without each other and they won't have to put each other at risk.
It your right to an extent, but B*S fighting skill extremely limited without Tsubaki, he certainly can't defeat Mifune, Asura, or Medusa especially since his nowhere as good as is Stein with it because he does not see nor, understand Souls. A lot of his best moments of skill has been due Tsubaki including his current control of Masamune. It's more of a bonus and a very situation power more than anything.

His true power is seen when he's with her not without, whether he will is ever admit that is another story.

Also during the Clown arc, after getting "Demon Hunter" She look like some one who had truly gotten her confidence back in her own power for the first time since her first fight with Crona. This was possible thanks to Soul.

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Also, the ability to release a soul wavelength unarmed requires a strong soul wavelength, which she now possesses, and the ability to pay careful attention to one's own soul. Black☆Star has had the former from the beginning and does the latter naturally by virtue of his egomaniacal megalomania, but Maka seems to be starting to fit the bill in her own way too. Maka does have a large soul wavelength now, and as for sensing her own soul, well... We've seen Maka look at her own soul in the Crona fight, and there have been incidents later too, ESPECIALLY in the Clown arc, where we see Maka's awareness of her own soul. Moreover, Maka has a very capable Soul Perception which she can use to look at herself. Plus we've seen her release her own soul wavelength now (and that was practically an attack by itself, the way it blew crap out of the way), so it really seems to me like she's only a short step away from being able to fight unarmed now.
Maka will probably use her Wavelength another way than B*S, possibly like Stein's like I said earlier.

Last edited by Iron Maw; 2008-12-03 at 23:06.
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Old 2008-12-04, 00:01   Link #226
Stream
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
I think the "lighting" was just an effect for her. If anyone else could do it they would probably have a special effect for them, like with the Soul Projections, (i.e Maka's Wings, Justin's Cross etc.)
Um... I don't see how this answers back the point I'm making - that it's a soul wavelength release.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Maybe.
Only when if you can point out where Black☆Star's soul release does anything remotely close to this.
Spoiler for No spoilers in this pic really - just a picture of Maka's soul wavelength causing a big shockwave.:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Oh, she is capable of it now, this isn't like what happenend with BREW and Kid.
I know.

What I'm saying is that she should be capable of launching soul wavelength attacks now or pretty soon.

Spoiler for manga:

What I'm saying is that Maka does get dragged into fights where she uses her bare hands, and sometimes she does this of her own will. The fight with Chrona, for instance, was one she could have completely avoided.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
I agree with that, what I mean is that I don't want them becoming clones of each other. Gaining skill in different fields fine as long as they don't lose what makes them unique.
I'm completely with you there.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
I've stated before that I personally see Maka learning Stein's ability to manipulate Wavelength of others and her own, allowing her nullfy attacks and be able to match quite a bit of Weapons. This supposedly requires a great understanding of Souls and a strong Soul Perception, Maka easily the best at that in her generation.
I agree with that theory. I mean, I've put forth some stuff that supports the theory myself in the past few posts. I'm saying by the same token I also see her learning attacks like Stein's unarmed attacks (soul purge, etc.).

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
B*S used a Ninja Blade which like a Short Sword so, using a Sword later won't be too new to him, and it's more Tsubaki's ability than his.
Eh, ninja blade and katana don't handle the same. The fighting style is different for them.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
It your right to an extent, but B*S fighting skill extremely limited without Tsubaki, he certainly can't defeat Mifune, Asura, or Medusa especially since his nowhere as good as is Stein with it because he does not see nor, understand Souls. A lot of his best moments of skill has been due Tsubaki including his current control of Masamune. It's more of a bonus and a very situation power more than anything.
I think they made a point of saying that Black☆Star is plenty strong without his weapons, given his dueling track record at school. To be honest, I don't see Black☆Star defeating Asura or even Medusa even with Tsubaki. Those two are crazy good.

Of course, I don't deny that he's better off with Tsubaki, at all. I'm just saying he's plenty strong without her too.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Also during the Clown arc, after getting "Demon Hunter" She look like some one who had truly gotten her confidence back in her own power for the first time since her first fight with Crona. This was possible thanks to Soul.
While I'm not sure what point you're making here, I'll agree to this much.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Maka will probably use her Wavelength another way than B*S, possibly like Stein's like I said earlier.
EDIT: Woops. forgot to comment here. What I meant to write here is that I agree she'll possibly use it like Stein's, but I'd also like to point out that Stein's method includes Black☆Star's.

Last edited by Stream; 2008-12-04 at 14:02.
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Old 2008-12-04, 03:00   Link #227
lmd_84
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Originally Posted by Stream View Post
The full text, maybe?

The smiley says "I'm with stupid" - meaning "I agree."
Ah, sorry. I saw the full text and thought you were calling me stupid. Hence I was a bit put out. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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Old 2008-12-04, 03:12   Link #228
JunkKitty
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Originally Posted by Stream View Post
Not even Soul manages that much.
Soul doesn't have any training in fighting, he pretty much sucks at it and he should. But we have seen him use his form to fight with, and he can transform pretty quickly.

I simply don't understand why Maka, with her natural disadvantages, would not want to learn how to use one of her natural abilities to her benefit. It doesn't make sense. Even "That's how much she hates Papa" doesn't follow, since she can tolerate him better than rejecting what she inherited from him would suggest. Shibusen is unlikely to care unless she starts eating souls.

You can say that she can be stubborn and reckless, and I won't disagree, but those are in-the-moment things. She can be impulsive, but she's too serious to sustain stupidity for .. eh.. days? Weeks? Certainly not years. The SE world is changing under her feet and she knows it. Even if she started out not wanting to use an ability she has, she'd be super-stupid to not be beginning to use it now.

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Originally Posted by Stream View Post
Maka doesn't demonstrate preexisting additional abilities when in danger as much as she gains new abilities at the moment and demonstrates them.
Sorry, this is too convoluted. I think I understand what you're saying but you're almost arguing that the lack of evidence of Maka being a Weapon is evidence she's maybe a Weapon.
Is this right: 'Maka wouldn't be fast enough to use her Weapon as defense in a fight, proof is Soul's not that good, but if she finds herself in another major pinch she might break through her barrier to find yet another totally new thing and it will be *this*!' ---how I'm reading it.

But the only truly new thing Maka has gained in a pinch was the Soul Perception. Everything since then has only been building on what is already there. Her bases are Soul Perception/ Resonance/ Black Blood, every new ability is rooted in those. Or am I forgetting something?

Honestly, the burden here should be on you to better explain (if you care to) what evidence you can show that suggests Maka could be a Weapon. I discount the other theory (Maka doesn't know) for the same reason I discount her willful refusal for the same single reason: a total lack of any suggestion, hint, tease, or bit of evidence that it's possible for a Weapon to never use/not know what they are and that Maka could be such a person.

Seriously, I love fan theories, but some are just fun musings, others spun of thin air, and don't have much to do with canon. I like them when they're presented and treated that way. There are also theories that seem to answer questions nicely and may be possible, but there's no good reason to believe it yet, there may be other answers. I see the Maka-as-Weapon theory as the former, unless I'm missing some clues from the manga or something. If there were some tease in the canon to support the theory, I'd accept it as a valid possibility. Can point me to some? I would be interested

In addition, does the plot seem to need her to be revealed as a Weapon? She seems to be doing fine without it. BTW, if your position is that Maka's not a weak useless character, I totally agree with you. She has a place in fights, and it's not just hanging out in the back waiting for a chance to unleash some UBER:not-a-real-fighters-technique technique. But I just don't get the Weapon theory, I think it's distracting from the talents she DOES show.

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Originally Posted by Stream View Post
[LIST=1][*]Generic action shounen series protagonist reasons, because in the end this is just a generic shounen action series with style (and lots of it).
Wait, cuz we can type the show, we can predict Maka will get/reveal another new type of ability rather than developing what she already has? Obviously the characters will grow and become powerful, I expect all 3 main Meisters will surpass their mentors.

Hehe, this doesn't have much to do with the subject I think? But I'm not sure SE is really just a generic shounen action series. I've read my share, and I'd put SE closer to FMA than Bleach. The series is plot driven, the fights are a part of the story. The plot doesn't exist just to give a framework to have fights. SE is a really smart shounen that alters/cuts out a lot of the generic-fight type crap. I get the sense Okobu is trying to write the kind of smart shounen he wanted to read, and we love it because of that.

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Originally Posted by Stream View Post
[*]Because all the characters seem to need to fix those issues that've been plaguing them. Maka's been having issues over her unarmed combat ability,
I can't imagine anyone would disagree with the first part. But the unarmed combat, I guess I missed that! I haven't seen her worry about her solo fighting ability. She's not supposed to fight solo, and I don't know where she expressed the desire to. She doesn't train for it, but she studies for tests, so I think she'd try training solo if it's something she worried about.

Maka's issues had revolved around her feelings of inadequacy, not exclusive to the physical. She didn't believe she had resolve, inner strength, dedication, courage, wisdom, ect, in addition to ability to fight with the scythe. After the Italian incident, she felt she didn't compare to Soul - not his physical strength (something he's never demonstrated), but the other types of strength she credited him with. She had built up this idea of him and didn't meet up to it herself. That was part of her problem back then. And she doesn't want to go toe-to-toe vs B*S, let alone unarmed. It's not her deal, she knows it.

edited to add, sorry: I wouldn't interpret her temper-punches as a desire to fight major enemies unarmed. It's an outlet of anger and frustration, not a planned fighting style. With B*S, she was just trying to settle a dispute the way the boys often do it. She chose not to take him up on his duel offer. She tried punching Crona because attempts to cut didn't do anything, while at least punching had an effect of slowing/bewildering Crona even if it wasn't a fight winning move. It's not enough. I guess I had thought you meant she wanted to go solo because of her 'I need to get stronger' stuff after Italy. Sorry. I got the Free fight stuff below.

On an off-topic aside since this is the Maka/Soul thread: I expect her negative self-feelings derive in a major way from the way Spirit treated her family. She was shown from a young age that no matter how much she was loved by her Papa, it wasn't enough to stop his family-damaging behavior. His love for her and her mother didn't outweigh whatever was driving his womanizing. She may not think "I'm not worth enough to my father for him to try to meet my needs" but it's terribly common in real world psychology for children from families like hers to have that subconscious belief unknowingly driving her sense of self-worth. Since Okubo appears to have put alot of thought into the psychology of the story, I think Maka's self-feelings make sense.

But she doesn't show so much hatred or spite to her Papa that it seems realistic she's shoving aside something like Weapon ability. She could seriously spurn him but she doesn't because she still hopes he'll become the father she wants. She's hoping sometimes angry treatment of him will prompt him to behave better.

(proof- the way she looked through her child photos/ the way Soul realizes Maka's love for reading came from Spirit's encouragement/ her willingness to accept his post-exam gift (before she opened it!)/ her willingness to ask him out on the date, it was just a stupid bet and she's stubborn enough she could have refused to honor it.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stream View Post
I'm not saying Maka should be a complete asskicker, but she shouldn't be worthless either. Most series have a bad habit of giving each character their place by creating situations which only they can handle (everyone else is worthless) and basically pigeonholing the cast into certain roles.
Thing is, Maka isn't worthless But she doesn't need the weapon-thing to not be worthless
I know most series DO pigeonhole characters (typical fighter crap), but SE is smarter than that. Seems to be too smart even for its fans, judging by how long it took people to accept the Weapons=genetics thing

IMO B*S is the most obvious pigeonholed character- in a magical/soul-based world like this one, what is a muscle-based guy gonna do? Brute force doesn't win the cake here. But his role is pretty interesting, in a typical fighter he'd be the main character, he's be kicking butts, he'd be the assassin who can keep his mouth shut, ect... and here he isn't. Meanwhile, Maka's the main girl, but she's not one of those girls who needs to hide in the safe corner. She can, and is willing, to take a beating when it's involved in what she wants.

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Originally Posted by Stream View Post
I think they're doing it to balance out the main characters. ... I think they're just balancing it out for marketing reasons (ie. target demographic is boys, so we need to at least give the male protagonists just as much screen-time).
Shounen Gangan is targeted to boys, and it seems to do fine letting Maka have her moments heh. The manga seems pretty balanced as it is. The anime isn't giving new screen-time to the boys or emphasizing them anymore than the manga does, they're just cutting out some key Maka moments.

I didn't like them cutting the Tsubaki bit, but I really disliked them toning down the crazy fight. BONES doesn't have the guts that Okubo has- to show the main female character going disturbingly out of her gourd. When I first read the manga, I was totally blown away by how we never see such a thing, so explicitly, but there it was. It was almost hard to look at, which made it awesome. It's why SE is smart.

I had thought BONES just wimped out, but adding it with the other cuts I think they just like drama too much. Make Maka seem weaker, makes it more tragic for the boys around her when something happens to her. I don't think it's screentime balance, it's attitude tuning. BONES probably thinks she is more sympathetic if she seems more vunerable, which is sad. I could see this: they think the audience (boys) will like her better if she's weaker. But are they right? Western fans don't seem to agree, but its not made for us. My first real complaint about the anime, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Stream View Post
Spoiler for The Free fight.:

That's why I predict that Maka is going to be a stronger all-rounder type fighter later, and she does have a lot in common with Stein.
B*S- can't manage his strength. He'll get it, but he has to come to honest terms with Tsubaki first (not his thread, I know). He'll be a better fighter in purely physical terms, though.

I got the impression that in the end of that fight, Maka was influenced by the new insanity of the BB. Free even says something to the effect of how insane she must be. She definitely felt the post-BB change in resonance, then. Add the effect to her determination and desperation.. well... Going unarmed wasn't typical of her. Probably she does secretly wish she were a fighter of B*S's type, but it's not a goal.

Sorry, I know I addressed some stuff, probably repeated some of what was already said today, long class/work days suck. I should have read the rest more before I started this
I'd rather see some interesting discussion about SE, even if its disagreements or just telling each other what we all already know in new ways... then the usual type posts that happen

Last edited by JunkKitty; 2008-12-04 at 03:23. Reason: because I just read something interesting
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Old 2008-12-04, 03:34   Link #229
Iron Maw
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Originally Posted by Stream View Post
Um... I don't see how this answers back the point I'm making - that it's a soul wavelength release.
I wasn't desputing that it wouldn't be, what I'm saying is that Internal generation" isn't necessary lighting based and that visual effect variy from person to person even though it achieves the same goal.

Ex, if Jackie was asked to perform the technique instead of lighting burning out the snake, fire would. This hinges on of course if only a unique ability available to Marie.

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Only when if you can point out where Black☆Star's soul release does anything remotely close to this.
Spoiler for No spoilers in this pic really - just a picture of Maka's soul wavelength causing a big shockwave.:
No, but that doesn't look like what B*S does.

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I know.

What I'm saying is that she should be capable of launching soul wavelength attacks now or pretty soon.
The thing is however, if this is the case why hasn't someone like Sid a top ranked Meister used it too then? I'm quite sure his Wavelength is much large than B*S, Maka, or Kid.

Maka might be able to attack with her Wavelength but, certainly looks like it will be in another fashion.

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What I'm saying is that Maka does get dragged into fights where she uses her bare hands, and sometimes she does this of her own will. The fight with Chrona, for instance, was one she could have completely avoided.
There's no doubt that Maka obviously knows Martial Arts, however she won't be as effective as B*S is since he can ampifly his strength through his Wavelength. I've said before that she fought Crona the way she did because at that time it seemed more effective.

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I agree with that theory. I mean, I've put forth some stuff that supports the theory myself in the past few posts. I'm saying by the same token I also see her learning attacks like Stein's unarmed attacks (soul purge, etc.).
The ability to cancel-out Wavelengths like Stein would be fine defense for her, it doesn't have to be attack oriented. Her Demonslayer Wavelegth can do some of it already looking at the last chapter.

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Eh, ninja blade and katana don't handle the same. The fighting style is different for them.
Yeah, I know they aren't exactly the same, but he's likely had practice with similar weaponry, Tsubaki probably eases the adjustment anyway.

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I think they made a point of saying that Black☆Star is plenty strong without his weapons, given his dueling track record at school. To be honest, I don't see Black☆Star defeating Asura or even Medusa even with Tsubaki. Those two are crazy good.
Yes, but we don't know if those people who he beat were the strongest of their class and, I have hard time see him defeating say Kilik without Tsubaki.

Against Medusa, he stands more of a chance having Tsubaki then by himself.

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Of course, I don't deny that he's better off with Tsubaki, at all. I'm just saying he's plenty strong without her too.
But, I doubt it's nearly enough to beat Mifune and the rest of the big fish.

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While I'm not sure what point you're making here, I'll agree to this much.
What I mean is she seems to no longer compare herself to B*S as much anymore now after discovering her own strength, granted it's not full resolved and she has long way to before reaching her prime, but she's much closer now.

Last edited by Iron Maw; 2008-12-04 at 03:48.
Iron Maw is offline  
Old 2008-12-04, 16:30   Link #230
Stream
Radical Dreamer
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Whee!

I knew I picked a winner for starting a good, long discussion! It's a pity I have to defend the theory like it's fact though. :-/

O wellz, lets get going.

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Originally Posted by lmd_84 View Post
Ah, sorry. I saw the full text and thought you were calling me stupid. Hence I was a bit put out. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Haha. Guess you weren't there for the T-shirt craze that read "I'm with stupid." with an arrow pointing to the left. A good few girls used to wear them when they were with their boyfriends. It may be a bit insulting, but it's affectionate (usually, anyway).

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
Soul doesn't have any training in fighting, he pretty much sucks at it and he should. But we have seen him use his form to fight with, and he can transform pretty quickly.
I don't know why he should... and if his envy over Justin, his desire to overcome his inability to fight by himself, and his desire to be able to be able to protect Maka have anything to say, it will change.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
I simply don't understand why Maka, with her natural disadvantages, would not want to learn how to use one of her natural abilities to her benefit. It doesn't make sense. Even "That's how much she hates Papa" doesn't follow, since she can tolerate him better than rejecting what she inherited from him would suggest.
Because she's strongly committed to being a technician like her mother not a weapon like her father, so she refuses to fight as a weapon. It's also possible that, for whatever reason, she is hiding the fact that she is a weapon and doesn't want anyone to know. You say it doesn't make sense but it only doesn't make sense to you who neglects the power of decisions and commitment to one's path. Maka does have the kind of determination for such a thing.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
Shibusen is unlikely to care unless she starts eating souls.
Indeed. That's not the problem.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
You can say that she can be stubborn and reckless, and I won't disagree, but those are in-the-moment things. She can be impulsive, but she's too serious to sustain stupidity for .. eh.. days? Weeks? Certainly not years. The SE world is changing under her feet and she knows it. Even if she started out not wanting to use an ability she has, she'd be super-stupid to not be beginning to use it now.
You say you're not disagreeing, but you are. You only acknowledge her stubbornness and recklessness for the purpose of discounting it. At any rate, I disagree. Maka's reckless drive isn't something that's just something that flares up for a moment. It's a pervasive recklessness that controls her actions and her behavior and it lasts as long as it will, be a it a moment, be it years. She may reconsider her recklessness if it's the type that hurts her friends, etc., but when it comes to putting herself on the line, she doesn't have many qualms about it. (To the contrary, sometimes I wonder if that girl is suicidal.)

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
Sorry, this is too convoluted. I think I understand what you're saying but you're almost arguing that the lack of evidence of Maka being a Weapon is evidence she's maybe a Weapon.
I wouldn't do anything that silly. (Okay, so maybe I would, but still...) All I'm arguing is that the lack of evidence of Maka being a weapon doesn't preclude her from being a weapon. In the end, you can't prove she's not a weapon, which means that the possibility is there, considering that her father is a weapon too.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
Is this right: 'Maka wouldn't be fast enough to use her Weapon as defense in a fight, proof is Soul's not that good, but if she finds herself in another major pinch she might break through her barrier to find yet another totally new thing and it will be *this*!' ---how I'm reading it.
I won't deny that what I said implicates that, but that's totally not my point. My point is just that Maka wouldn't draw on her abilities as a weapon as much as she would just try to tough it out as a technician, and it works for her.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
But the only truly new thing Maka has gained in a pinch was the Soul Perception. Everything since then has only been building on what is already there. Her bases are Soul Perception/ Resonance/ Black Blood, every new ability is rooted in those. Or am I forgetting something?
I'm saying she draws on new heretofore-nonexistant strength, not that she develops radically new abilities. Here are the examples thus far.
Spoiler for Manga - Covers most of the Maka fights.:

What I'm pointing out right here is that Maka isn't so much reliant on her preexisting abilities as much as she just gains the strength to win the fight during the fight.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
Honestly, the burden here should be on you to better explain (if you care to) what evidence you can show that suggests Maka could be a Weapon. I discount the other theory (Maka doesn't know) for the same reason I discount her willful refusal for the same single reason: a total lack of any suggestion, hint, tease, or bit of evidence that it's possible for a Weapon to never use/not know what they are and that Maka could be such a person.
Not really, if I could prove it beyond a shadow of doubt, it wouldn't be a theory, now would it? As for the evidence and suggestiveness, well, scroll down to my next answer.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
Seriously, I love fan theories, but some are just fun musings, others spun of thin air, and don't have much to do with canon. I like them when they're presented and treated that way. There are also theories that seem to answer questions nicely and may be possible, but there's no good reason to believe it yet, there may be other answers. I see the Maka-as-Weapon theory as the former, unless I'm missing some clues from the manga or something. If there were some tease in the canon to support the theory, I'd accept it as a valid possibility. Can point me to some? I would be interested
It is a fun theory just for fun. From the very beginning, I have not been out to prove that it is the case, only that it's a certainly a possibility. The only indicators I have to go off of this is that being a weapon is in the blood and with her father being a Death Scythe, Maka seems strongly disposed to being a weapon. Besides, this is about as much advance warning as we'd get for a twist surprise revelation that Maka is a weapon - if it'd happen, of course.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
In addition, does the plot seem to need her to be revealed as a Weapon? She seems to be doing fine without it. BTW, if your position is that Maka's not a weak useless character, I totally agree with you. She has a place in fights, and it's not just hanging out in the back waiting for a chance to unleash some UBER:not-a-real-fighters-technique technique. But I just don't get the Weapon theory, I think it's distracting from the talents she DOES show.
The theory's just for fun and food for thought. How's it distracting?

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
Wait, cuz we can type the show, we can predict Maka will get/reveal another new type of ability rather than developing what she already has? Obviously the characters will grow and become powerful, I expect all 3 main Meisters will surpass their mentors.
The rule of shounen action series is that the characters not only become stupidly powerful within limited specializations but that they also gain some measure of power in general.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
Hehe, this doesn't have much to do with the subject I think? But I'm not sure SE is really just a generic shounen action series. I've read my share, and I'd put SE closer to FMA than Bleach. The series is plot driven, the fights are a part of the story. The plot doesn't exist just to give a framework to have fights. SE is a really smart shounen that alters/cuts out a lot of the generic-fight type crap. I get the sense Okobu is trying to write the kind of smart shounen he wanted to read, and we love it because of that.
I won't deny that it's smart for its genre, but it has the core elements of any shounen action series, like Bleach, Naruto, DBZ, etc. It has battle auras, mostly revolves around the fights (Yes, the fights are plot-driven, but the plot is also fight-driven.), the standard "must get stronger" syndrome, etc., etc.

Generic shounen action series is more or less a genre. As far as these types of action series are concerned, I like Claymore and Soul Eater the most.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
I can't imagine anyone would disagree with the first part. But the unarmed combat, I guess I missed that! I haven't seen her worry about her solo fighting ability. She's not supposed to fight solo, and I don't know where she expressed the desire to. She doesn't train for it, but she studies for tests, so I think she'd try training solo if it's something she worried about.
We don't see any training montages in Soul Eater, really. Just occasionally a few scenes about training or trying out a new ability. Next, here, I'll quote myself on it:
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Originally Posted by Stream View Post
I don't think it was so much the Demon Hunter that was her way of getting that strength as much as it was her own rise in soul wavelength. At any rate, envying Black☆Star does say something because it's not so much the strength of the bond between Black☆Star and Tsubaki that she envies as much as she envies Black☆Star's own strength. A good portion of it is emotional, to be sure, how she envies the way Black☆Star can be sure of his own path and let the devil take the rules, but I think a good part of it is literal too. Maka wanted the strength to avoid having Soul get hurt. (The same, Soul wants the strength to avoid having Maka get hurt, which is why he, similarly, envies Justin. Sacrificing your body, while a nice gesture, doesn't really help.) The type of strength that it requires for Maka to be able to fight without having Soul get hurt is the type of strength for Maka not to have to rely on Soul, for her to be able to fight by herself without him. That doesn't mean Maka and Soul intend to just fight solo, but that they want to be able to fight solo when it's called for, so they won't be helpless without each other and they won't have to put each other at risk.
Also, biting, sarcastic cynicism. Not the way to go if you're trying to have a friendly conversation.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
Maka's issues had revolved around her feelings of inadequacy, not exclusive to the physical. She didn't believe she had resolve, inner strength, dedication, courage, wisdom, ect, in addition to ability to fight with the scythe.
I already said as much in my other posts. (The section has been quoted right above.) Sometimes I get the feeling that when people respond to my posts they don't keep my previous posts in account. No offense.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
After the Italian incident, she felt she didn't compare to Soul - not his physical strength (something he's never demonstrated), but the other types of strength she credited him with. She had built up this idea of him and didn't meet up to it herself. That was part of her problem back then.
Soul and Black☆Star. At any rate, I have put forth a solid argument for why she also wants the physical strength. Please don't disregard my arguments.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
And she doesn't want to go toe-to-toe vs B*S, let alone unarmed. It's not her deal, she knows it.
That is your view, and I have provided analysis to the contrary. Where is your analysis that refutes mine or your proof that Maka unarmed combat is not her thing.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
edited to add, sorry: I wouldn't interpret her temper-punches as a desire to fight major enemies unarmed. It's an outlet of anger and frustration, not a planned fighting style. With B*S, she was just trying to settle a dispute the way the boys often do it. She chose not to take him up on his duel offer.
Temper punches indicates a predisposition to punching, and she accidentally hit Chrona this way too. The common method for a girl to physically berate another person involves slapping, I believe. Maka punches. People who punch are more likely to want to get physical than people who slap.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
She tried punching Crona because attempts to cut didn't do anything, while at least punching had an effect of slowing/bewildering Crona even if it wasn't a fight winning move. It's not enough. I guess I had thought you meant she wanted to go solo because of her 'I need to get stronger' stuff after Italy. Sorry. I got the Free fight stuff below.
In that case, can you explain why Maka resorted to punching and kicking Crona in the first fight, before she discovered that she can't cut Crona? Also, when she opted into fighting Chrona, she opted into using her fists too.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
On an off-topic aside since this is the Maka/Soul thread: I expect her negative self-feelings derive in a major way from the way Spirit treated her family. She was shown from a young age that no matter how much she was loved by her Papa, it wasn't enough to stop his family-damaging behavior. His love for her and her mother didn't outweigh whatever was driving his womanizing. She may not think "I'm not worth enough to my father for him to try to meet my needs" but it's terribly common in real world psychology for children from families like hers to have that subconscious belief unknowingly driving her sense of self-worth. Since Okubo appears to have put alot of thought into the psychology of the story, I think Maka's self-feelings make sense.
Um, just a quick question but are you making it look like Maka is trying to win her father's approval or something like that? Isn't it that Maka is disapproving of her father?

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
But she doesn't show so much hatred or spite to her Papa that it seems realistic she's shoving aside something like Weapon ability. She could seriously spurn him but she doesn't because she still hopes he'll become the father she wants. She's hoping sometimes angry treatment of him will prompt him to behave better.
Or, it could just be a bloody stubborn life decision of hers, and Maka can be very stubborn. I agree with you that she wants him to behave better, of course.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
(proof- the way she looked through her child photos/ the way Soul realizes Maka's love for reading came from Spirit's encouragement/ her willingness to accept his post-exam gift (before she opened it!)/ her willingness to ask him out on the date, it was just a stupid bet and she's stubborn enough she could have refused to honor it.)
She could also be stubborn enough about things she's agreed to that she does honor it. Either way, this is not the issue.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
Thing is, Maka isn't worthless But she doesn't need the weapon-thing to not be worthless
I agree with you on the not worthless part, but, eh, what exactly are you trying to say in the second part? (I hate saying "Um, your point?" but I guess that's kind of what I'm asking for right here.)

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
I know most series DO pigeonhole characters (typical fighter crap), but SE is smarter than that. Seems to be too smart even for its fans, judging by how long it took people to accept the Weapons=genetics thing
I more or less figured the weapons=genetics thing as soon as I discovered Maka's dad was a Death Scythe (ie. Chapter 1). But, I also believe that it is because SE is smarter than pigeonholing that we will be seeing a decent rise in Maka's combat ability unarmed.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
IMO B*S is the most obvious pigeonholed character- in a magical/soul-based world like this one, what is a muscle-based guy gonna do? Brute force doesn't win the cake here. But his role is pretty interesting, in a typical fighter he'd be the main character, he's be kicking butts, he'd be the assassin who can keep his mouth shut, etc... and here he isn't. Meanwhile, Maka's the main girl, but she's not one of those girls who needs to hide in the safe corner. She can, and is willing, to take a beating when it's involved in what she wants.
Black☆Star is one of the most versatile fighters, imo. Although brute force may be his thing, he has a ridiculous array of weapons at his disposal through Tsubaki and to top it off he can even fight unarmed.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
Shounen Gangan is targeted to boys, and it seems to do fine letting Maka have her moments heh. The manga seems pretty balanced as it is. The anime isn't giving new screen-time to the boys or emphasizing them anymore than the manga does, they're just cutting out some key Maka moments.
In the manga though the author had considerably more control over the content, whereas in the anime they may be subject to additional decisions about marketability, which it really didn't need.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
I didn't like them cutting the Tsubaki bit, but I really disliked them toning down the crazy fight. BONES doesn't have the guts that Okubo has- to show the main female character going disturbingly out of her gourd. When I first read the manga, I was totally blown away by how we never see such a thing, so explicitly, but there it was. It was almost hard to look at, which made it awesome. It's why SE is smart.

I had thought BONES just wimped out, but adding it with the other cuts I think they just like drama too much. Make Maka seem weaker, makes it more tragic for the boys around her when something happens to her. I don't think it's screentime balance, it's attitude tuning. BONES probably thinks she is more sympathetic if she seems more vunerable, which is sad. I could see this: they think the audience (boys) will like her better if she's weaker. But are they right? Western fans don't seem to agree, but its not made for us. My first real complaint about the anime, I guess.


Agreed, all the way.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
B*S- can't manage his strength. He'll get it, but he has to come to honest terms with Tsubaki first (not his thread, I know). He'll be a better fighter in purely physical terms, though.
What do you think Black☆Star needs to be honest about? I mean, he's a pretty upfront person and he does make good strides with Tsubaki.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
I got the impression that in the end of that fight, Maka was influenced by the new insanity of the BB. Free even says something to the effect of how insane she must be. She definitely felt the post-BB change in resonance, then. Add the effect to her determination and desperation.. well... Going unarmed wasn't typical of her.
Free was just expressing shock at the fact that Maka, a weapon technician, decided to attack him without a weapon for her last blow. I think it was Maka's own decision to fight like that, and not just the effect of the Black Blood. Plus, I thought the insanity of the black blood faded once Soul got it under control. The little demon said that it quickly disappeared in the 2nd Crona fight anyway.

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
Probably she does secretly wish she were a fighter of B*S's type, but it's not a goal.
If you don't believe it's a goal, then what do you believe is going to happen to that wish?

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Originally Posted by JunkKitty View Post
Sorry, I know I addressed some stuff, probably repeated some of what was already said today, long class/work days suck. I should have read the rest more before I started this
I'd rather see some interesting discussion about SE, even if its disagreements or just telling each other what we all already know in new ways... then the usual type posts that happen
I like these discussions too.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
I wasn't desputing that it wouldn't be, what I'm saying is that Internal generation" isn't necessary lighting based and that visual effect variy from person to person even though it achieves the same goal.

Ex, if Jackie was asked to perform the technique instead of lighting burning out the snake, fire would. This hinges on of course if only a unique ability available to Marie.
Oh okay, I see. Well, there's no real evidence either way but it doesn't really matter.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
No, but that doesn't look like what B*S does.
Exactly, and Maka's soul wave surge was the most badass one we've seen.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
The thing is however, if this is the case why hasn't someone like Sid a top ranked Meister used it too then? I'm quite sure his Wavelength is much large than B*S, Maka, or Kid.
Maybe he sucks at drawing out his own wavelength? Anyhow, it's possible that he can do it. At any rate, Sid's a knife technician, and so far he hasn't even been pulled into such close range, and if he is, being a knife technician he'd use Nygus, the knife. That bloke is such a green beret.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Maka might be able to attack with her Wavelength but, certainly looks like it will be in another fashion.
Um, there's not much to Black☆Star's or Franken Stein's method, tbh. All it is is injecting one's own wavelength into the opponent directly. It requires a big soul wavelength and the ability to manipulate and listen to one's own soul wavelength. Maka, just recently, seems to have fulfilled both of these requirements, so I don't see the skill as being far off for her.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
There's no doubt that Maka obviously knows Martial Arts, however she won't be as effective as B*S is since he can ampifly his strength through his Wavelength. I've said before that she fought Crona the way she did because at that time it seemed more effective.
And in the first Crona fight she punched and kicked Crona too, before learning that cutting was ineffective. Moreover, if Maka's focus was just to defeat Crona effectively, she would have fared better to leave the fight to Black☆Star like she was supposed to.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
The ability to cancel-out Wavelengths like Stein would be fine defense for her, it doesn't have to be attack oriented. Her Demonslayer Wavelegth can do some of it already looking at the last chapter.
I'm just saying she'd learn both. Besides, Stein's ability isn't canceling out wavelengths. It's the ability to take the wavelength without damaging oneself by synchronizing your own wavelength to your opponent's. I think if you can pull off this move, you should already be more than capable of injecting your own wavelength into your opponent.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Yeah, I know they aren't exactly the same, but he's likely had practice with similar weaponry, Tsubaki probably eases the adjustment anyway.
True, but he's still had to learn and do something new.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Yes, but we don't know if those people who he beat were the strongest of their class and, I have hard time see him defeating say Kilik without Tsubaki.
Black☆Star has a habit of challenging strong people to a duel, and the one time he beat up Ox he specifically said that's not going on his dueling record because he's not counting people that weak. So, there are good odds that they were at least pretty strong.

I think he'd fare well against Kilik without Tsubaki, imo. It'd be a match worth seeing.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Against Medusa, he stands more of a chance having Tsubaki than by himself.
Virtually any technician is at their strongest with their weapon. That's a moot point. All I'm saying is that Black☆Star is plenty strong without Tsubaki too.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
But, I doubt it's nearly enough to beat Mifune and the rest of the big fish.
True, but it's not insignificant either. Bear in mind that he uses his own soul wavelength attack in conjunction to Tsubaki too.

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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
What I mean is she seems to no longer compare herself to B*S as much anymore now after discovering her own strength, granted it's not full resolved and she has long way to before reaching her prime, but she's much closer now.
Fair enough, but the keyword is seems. We still have to find out if those issues have really been resolved. Plus, there are good odds that her new wavelength lets her pack a serious punch without soul now.

Last edited by Stream; 2008-12-07 at 06:39.
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Old 2008-12-04, 18:21   Link #231
Reincarnated
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Sorry , it's not because I don't respect all of your posts guys , but it's just too long for me. I'm not a fluent native speaker and my English was bad (especially reading and vocab) , so I'll just point to what I can give my theory to.

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Originally Posted by Stream View Post
Because she's strongly committed to being a technician like her mother not a weapon like her father, so she refuses to fight as a weapon. It's also possible that, for whatever reason, she is hiding the fact that she is a weapon and doesn't want anyone to know. You say it doesn't make sense but it only doesn't make sense to you who neglects the power of decisions and commitment to one's path. Maka does have the kind of determination for such a thing.
Still with the weapon? I still have to disagree , because I have said a soul resonance is performed by a meister and a weapon (unless there's a scene between a weapon and a weapon performed this then I give up) and I haven't seen a weapon have Soul Perception ability , which mostly meister do have it. (e.g : Stein and
Spoiler:



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Maka's reckless drive isn't something that's just something that flares up for a moment. It's a pervasive recklessness that controls her actions and her behavior and it lasts as long as it will, be a it a moment, be it years. She may reconsider her recklessness if it's the type that hurts her friends, etc., but when it comes to putting herself on the line, she doesn't have many qualms about it. (To the contrary, sometimes I wonder if that girl is suicidal.)
Hm yes , I'm quite agree with this. I think she doesn't want any of her friend getting hurt , but when it comes to herself , she can care less about that. Maybe this act is because of Soul getting hurt for her sake , she doesn't want that anymore. (while Soul said "I'm willing to die for my technician" , she is kinda "I prefer die before you can put your life for my sake" )

Sometimes she isn't reckless , but she has miscalculation when thinking of strategies. (She has said this during her first meeting with Chrona "I'm way too careless")
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Old 2008-12-04, 19:38   Link #232
Stream
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reincarnated View Post
Sorry , it's not because I don't respect all of your posts guys , but it's just too long for me. I'm not a fluent native speaker and my English was bad (especially reading and vocab) , so I'll just point to what I can give my theory to.
Oh. I'll use simpler English then. For what it's worth, English is my 3rd language. :-/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reincarnated View Post
Still with the weapon? I still have to disagree , because I have said a soul resonance is performed by a meister and a weapon (unless there's a scene between a weapon and a weapon performed this then I give up) and I haven't seen a weapon have Soul Perception ability, which mostly meister do have it. (e.g : Stein and BJ)
I haven't seen that, but we have seen Liz and Patty use each other. Liz and Patty shoot amplified wavelengths, so this is a short step away. Also, Tsubaki can use Soul Perception. Watch or read the Sid fight. When Black☆Star senses Sid, he says he can sense Sid through Tsubaki.

I agree with you on the rest.
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Old 2008-12-06, 22:47   Link #233
Stream
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Um, did I like kill this thread?
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Old 2008-12-07, 05:21   Link #234
Iron Maw
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Nah, this happens sometimes, generally I've been too tried to post due to Finals and all. I"II probably be able to discuss more in next few days when I am less stressed.
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Old 2008-12-07, 08:33   Link #235
lmd_84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reincarnated View Post
Still with the weapon? I still have to disagree, because I have said a soul resonance is performed by a meister and a weapon (unless there's a scene between a weapon and a weapon performed this then I give up) and I haven't seen a weapon have Soul Perception ability , which mostly meister do have it. (e.g : Stein and
Spoiler:
There are several meister characters who have Soul Perception (Stein, Maka, BJ, and Ox spring to mind), but Weapons also do.

Yumi uses a version it to stake out the Arachnaphobia base with senrigan (sp?) for she identifies the powerful of Mifune and the "monster" Mosquito, and Spirit recognises the increase in Asura's wavelength when the Kishin is freed. Also, his ability to affect both Stein and Medusa's wavelength with the sewing technique suggests that he has Soul Perception to some extent.
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Old 2008-12-07, 18:30   Link #236
Reincarnated
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^ really? In my opinion her senrigan is due to her ability as a weapon. Also for Spirit's case , he controlled Stein's wavelength as well , as a weapon. But it doesn't mean they have that ability. Soul Perception ability is all about seeing into a person's soul , to look at the personality and all.

that's why I said , 'soul' and 'soul wavelength' are different.

Also , Patty and Liz can use each other , doesn't mean they can do resonance. It's just because their wavelength matched each other.

This weapon thingy sure is complex to describe. They are like mediator for their mesiter's wavelength , yet they have their own ability and wavelength too , so yeah .. I am not really sure about this.

correct me if I'm wrong
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Old 2008-12-07, 22:24   Link #237
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reincarnated View Post
^ really? In my opinion her senrigan is due to her ability as a weapon. Also for Spirit's case , he controlled Stein's wavelength as well , as a weapon. But it doesn't mean they have that ability. Soul Perception ability is all about seeing into a person's soul , to look at the personality and all.

that's why I said , 'soul' and 'soul wavelength' are different.

Also , Patty and Liz can use each other , doesn't mean they can do resonance. It's just because their wavelength matched each other.

This weapon thingy sure is complex to describe. They are like mediator for their mesiter's wavelength , yet they have their own ability and wavelength too , so yeah .. I am not really sure about this.

correct me if I'm wrong
Senrigan is almost certainly a manifestation of her weapon-ness, but she can still see souls when she's doing it. When she drew the map of the facility she noted that Mifune was really strong, that Mosquito was a monster, etc, and when she looked down at BS fighting Mifune she once again compared the souls. So she has soul perception.
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Old 2008-12-10, 05:57   Link #238
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^ really? then I'm wrong then ^^;
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Old 2008-12-10, 09:32   Link #239
lmd_84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reincarnated View Post
^ really? In my opinion her senrigan is due to her ability as a weapon. Also for Spirit's case , he controlled Stein's wavelength as well , as a weapon. But it doesn't mean they have that ability. Soul Perception ability is all about seeing into a person's soul , to look at the personality and all.

that's why I said , 'soul' and 'soul wavelength' are different.

Also, Patty and Liz can use each other , doesn't mean they can do resonance. It's just because their wavelength matched each other.

This weapon thingy sure is complex to describe. They are like mediator for their mesiter's wavelength , yet they have their own ability and wavelength too , so yeah .. I am not really sure about this.

correct me if I'm wrong
I don't think you're quite right about Soul Perception. The only one who's adept enough to actually analyse people's personalities is Stein. Yet Maka is described as having Soul Perception when she, on a simpler level, is capable of seeing souls and sensing their wavelengths (which, indeed, are described as two seperate but connected things; the soul emits the soul wavelength, as shown by the diagram during Stein's description in ep8).

I would guess the two abilities go hand in hand, but differ between one individual and the next. So, what Stein and Maka can do is Soul Perception, as is Yumi's use of it.

Maka's is apparently impressive amongst the kids, whereas at the other end of the scale you have Stein and
Spoiler:


I'd argue that Spirit must have Soul Perception to some extent, given that to manipulate both Stein's and Medusa's wavelength he must be aware of their souls and their respective wavelengths.

Also, it's said to be a skill of powerful weapons to alter their Technician's wavelength the way the sewing technique works; not just any of them, and we've only seen it in Spirit so far (which, given his Tech was Stein, I find curious to say the least). Possibly another indication - along with Yumi's precise mapping - of the power and abilities of the Death Scythe group (incidentally, Sid's phrasing when he compliments Asuza confused me...but anyway).
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Old 2008-12-10, 10:07   Link #240
Reincarnated
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Wait wait wait. B*S can once feel Sid's presence through Tsubaki.
Spoiler:
is that all Soul perception ability then? And if Spirit has Soul perception ability , why did he ask about Maka's condition to Stein in Kishin arc?

Spirit and Yumi are Death Scythes , which it's possible that they are special from any of Shibusen students after eating those 99 bad souls and 1 witch soul.

but...Soul perception ability isn't special then?? That's a bit disappointing

Spoiler:


but still argue about Maka being a weapon. Actually it's for my egoism opinion , I want Maka keep struggling to keep stronger for the way she is , being a meister , not being a weapon or anything else. It just seems interesting to see her jealousy , or rather , her stubborn way of thinking 'I want to be stronger' while maybe some of you guys find it quite annoying. But for me , it makes her being on my top list of coolest girl I've ever seen in shounen manga.

That goes same for Soul. His personality is quite mysterious. While I know Black Star indeed is self-centered and Kidd has his OCD yet mature , Soul is somtimes mature , but sometimes not. Sometimes he's calm , sometimes he's as freak as B*S.
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