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View Poll Results: Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Second Season - Episode 9 Rating
Perfect 10 97 61.78%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 28 17.83%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 21 13.38%
7 out of 10 : Good 8 5.10%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 0.64%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 1.27%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 157. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-12-06, 22:33   Link #481
NyxOne
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Okay, since you're apparently a total pillock, I will explain it in layman's terms.

Ali has NO SENSE OF HONOR. He may not be totally insane, but he doesn't fight like a knight, or someone with a sense of nobility about themselves. He says "Fuck you" to precepts and rules of combat- which do exist- and fights like a wild beast, and dominates people in the process- case in point, his most recent battle. He is relentless, without mercy, without compassion, without remorse, and without any sense of ruth. (And there's a difference between being ruthless because one, along with their skills, is a beast on the battlefield, and one being apparently 'ruthless' because they're following orders. You want a real-life definition of ruthless, look at the Russians in WWII around the closing stages. They were following their own orders- namely, kill any German in sight, whereas the Americans were following set objectives and not raging like total madmen. That is RUTHLESSNESS.

Graham, on the other hand, fights, AGAIN, with a strict moral code in mind and abides by an equally strict code of honor. He battles as if the rules of combat- and rules are made to be broken- cannot be broken. If it were Ali, or any other soldier, he would have gutted the downed 00 when he had the chance, but AGAIN, Graham didn't, because he fights with honor. Now, use what logic you have, and pit someone who fights by honor to the letter against someone who does the exact opposite, and someone who is a merciless murderer like Ali is.

I'm fully expecting your ego to shine, though, so I don't expect anything good out of you.
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Old 2008-12-06, 23:16   Link #482
Slick_rick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyxOne View Post
Okay, since you're apparently a total pillock, I will explain it in layman's terms.

Ali has NO SENSE OF HONOR. He may not be totally insane, but he doesn't fight like a knight, or someone with a sense of nobility about themselves. He says "Fuck you" to precepts and rules of combat- which do exist- and fights like a wild beast, and dominates people in the process- case in point, his most recent battle. He is relentless, without mercy, without compassion, without remorse, and without any sense of ruth. (And there's a difference between being ruthless because one, along with their skills, is a beast on the battlefield, and one being apparently 'ruthless' because they're following orders. You want a real-life definition of ruthless, look at the Russians in WWII around the closing stages. They were following their own orders- namely, kill any German in sight, whereas the Americans were following set objectives and not raging like total madmen. That is RUTHLESSNESS.

Graham, on the other hand, fights, AGAIN, with a strict moral code in mind and abides by an equally strict code of honor. He battles as if the rules of combat- and rules are made to be broken- cannot be broken. If it were Ali, or any other soldier, he would have gutted the downed 00 when he had the chance, but AGAIN, Graham didn't, because he fights with honor. Now, use what logic you have, and pit someone who fights by honor to the letter against someone who does the exact opposite, and someone who is a merciless murderer like Ali is.

I'm fully expecting your ego to shine, though, so I don't expect anything good out of you.
I actually wanted to avoid getting into this argument as I found it fairly pointless but I'll just weigh in a bit.

While I do see situations where Ali's ruthlessness would be beneficial I also feel it other situations where it can be a problem. Let's take when Ali critically damaged Lockon's Gundam in S1. He's ruthlessly went in to kill Lockon and that what lead to his Gundam being destroyed and him getting hurt. When you know you enemy is just out to kill you and won't allow you to surrender you will be more prone to fighting to the death instead of surrendering. He has a bounty on his head by most of the Gundam pilots already. He is hated and many characters would kill him if they had the opportunity. I think most will agree that his chance of dying this season is well past 100 percent while Graham has a decent chance of actually living.

Ruthlessness can be extremely beneficial but it's highly dependent on the situation and can be equally a hindrance. Because, Ali is more ruthless doesn't mean he's better or worse than Graham though or would win a fight between the two.
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Old 2008-12-06, 23:36   Link #483
StratoSpear
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Wow, the heat.... And a whole lot of new language!

Tone down on the arguments, people!
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Old 2008-12-06, 23:37   Link #484
mechabao
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@wtfftw
I was writing a couple of lengthy replies but I kept losing them due to random power outages where I live. Anyway, here goes my response:

I never said Ali didn't have extensive experience, skill, and tactics. However, unlike someone whose options in combat are limited because they follow some pre-established rules of engagement(Meisters, Graham, A-Laws and Federation grunts), Ali just doesn't give a fuck about morals, ethics, or rules. Which is what makes those rules of air combat even deadlier in his hands. If throwing a bus full of civilians at the enemy mobile suit would give him the upper hand in a fight, he won't think twice about doing so.

And I stand by my statement that the Meisters are in fact relatively incompetent pilots who use their Gundams as a crutch due to their crappy piloting skills. The only reason they owned entire armies was 80% due to their massive technological advantage in season 1 and only 20% due to piloting ability. That and because the writers said so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NyxOne View Post
Okay, since you're apparently a total pillock, I will explain it in layman's terms.

Ali has NO SENSE OF HONOR. He may not be totally insane, but he doesn't fight like a knight, or someone with a sense of nobility about themselves. He says "Fuck you" to precepts and rules of combat- which do exist- and fights like a wild beast, and dominates people in the process- case in point, his most recent battle. He is relentless, without mercy, without compassion, without remorse, and without any sense of ruth. (And there's a difference between being ruthless because one, along with their skills, is a beast on the battlefield, and one being apparently 'ruthless' because they're following orders. You want a real-life definition of ruthless, look at the Russians in WWII around the closing stages. They were following their own orders- namely, kill any German in sight, whereas the Americans were following set objectives and not raging like total madmen. That is RUTHLESSNESS.

Graham, on the other hand, fights, AGAIN, with a strict moral code in mind and abides by an equally strict code of honor. He battles as if the rules of combat- and rules are made to be broken- cannot be broken. If it were Ali, or any other soldier, he would have gutted the downed 00 when he had the chance, but AGAIN, Graham didn't, because he fights with honor. Now, use what logic you have, and pit someone who fights by honor to the letter against someone who does the exact opposite, and someone who is a merciless murderer like Ali is.

I'm fully expecting your ego to shine, though, so I don't expect anything good out of you.
It also helps that Ali absolutely enjoys being in combat, I mean it's almost an orgasmic experience for him. While he may not be insane, he most certainly is a psychopath.
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Old 2008-12-06, 23:46   Link #485
mechabao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
I actually wanted to avoid getting into this argument as I found it fairly pointless but I'll just weigh in a bit.

While I do see situations where Ali's ruthlessness would be beneficial I also feel it other situations where it can be a problem. Let's take when Ali critically damaged Lockon's Gundam in S1. He's ruthlessly went in to kill Lockon and that what lead to his Gundam being destroyed and him getting hurt. When you know you enemy is just out to kill you and won't allow you to surrender you will be more prone to fighting to the death instead of surrendering. He has a bounty on his head by most of the Gundam pilots already. He is hated and many characters would kill him if they had the opportunity. I think most will agree that his chance of dying this season is well past 100 percent while Graham has a decent chance of actually living.

Ruthlessness can be extremely beneficial but it's highly dependent on the situation and can be equally a hindrance. Because, Ali is more ruthless doesn't mean he's better or worse than Graham though or would win a fight between the two.
I agree that being ruthless doesn't automatically equate to being victorious but it does give you a significant advantage. In a game of one-upmanship, the one who wins is the person who's willing to go to extremes.

I also agree that having a reputation as bad as the one which Ali has isn't exactly good for one's well-being in the long term. Unless Ali is the 00 version of Yazan from Zeta and ZZ.

Last edited by mechabao; 2008-12-07 at 00:08.
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Old 2008-12-06, 23:53   Link #486
SaintessHeart
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One thing, notice that Ali never uses his fangs for long, unlike Michael in S1. And he never used his fangs against 00.

He is a pro pilot who only uses the special weapons when the situation calls for it.

Besides, wtfftw, your opinions are so self-centred. Either look on the different perspectives or just gouge your eyes out.
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Old 2008-12-07, 00:12   Link #487
bloodyknight
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My opinion... Ali figures that the OO is too fast for the fangs to even hit it so he has abandoned that idea of using it...

The 00 is a close combat type and moves too fast... Unless you force him into a corner just like what Michael did to Howard in season 1 and then deploy the fangs to attack or use the fangs in the most unexpected way (planning a sneak attack, attacking the 00 from behind, etc...), the fangs are useless against the 00...

That is what i believe anyways.
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Old 2008-12-07, 00:18   Link #488
NyxOne
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Actually, the Fangs did rather well against 00.
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Old 2008-12-07, 00:22   Link #489
Cherudim Arche
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyknight View Post
My opinion... Ali figures that the OO is too fast for the fangs to even hit it so he has abandoned that idea of using it...

The 00 is a close combat type and moves too fast... Unless you force him into a corner just like what Michael did to Howard in season 1 and then deploy the fangs to attack or use the fangs in the most unexpected way (planning a sneak attack, attacking the 00 from behind, etc...), the fangs are useless against the 00...

That is what i believe anyways.
Ali manage to corner 00 and seravee with the fangs. As for 00, there hasn't been enough battles with far superior units such as Arche or other Gadessas, to say it is that good in close combat and agility.

Last edited by Cherudim Arche; 2008-12-07 at 00:35.
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Old 2008-12-07, 00:36   Link #490
lakz
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I just don't see how one can still argue that A-LAWS answers and operates within any boundaries set by the Federation. Okay, they "officially" are the secret police of the federation we know that, but they work by themselves and act as they deem fit to "keep peace".
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Old 2008-12-07, 01:15   Link #491
mechabao
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Originally Posted by lakz View Post
I just don't see how one can still argue that A-LAWS answers and operates within any boundaries set by the Federation. Okay, they "officially" are the secret police of the federation we know that, but they work by themselves and act as they deem fit to "keep peace".
I agree with the second part of your statement since the difference between them and the regular military is that they have the power to plan and execute military operations without having to ask for permission or suffer any sort of political interference. It's basically every military commander's dream.

In any case however, they still have to answer to the governing body of the Federation. For example, inquiries into the results of any operations that they performed, any relevant intelligence they may have gathered etc.

tl;dr
They can shoot first and ask questions later.
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Old 2008-12-07, 07:52   Link #492
wtfftw
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Originally Posted by NyxOne View Post
Okay, since you're apparently a total pillock, I will explain it in layman's terms.
layman terms?? You know at this point your post would never have the creditability to support that Ali is better because he is ruthless. That's your perception on what you think puts him above others. In the case of war, what puts ali above others is not ruthlessness but skill and other factors that i already mentioned. ALso starting to think that you could at least make a discussion is laughable because i already gave 100 arguments examples that state otherwise that you do not address. Mechabao has more of a case then you ever will at this point. Ill just quote my own stuff on stuff you bring up

Quote:
Originally Posted by NyxOne View Post
Ali has NO SENSE OF HONOR. He may not be totally insane, but he doesn't fight like a knight, or someone with a sense of nobility about themselves.
This has absolutely value what soever. All people killed by Graham dont think he was honorable since they died.

I earlier said which you did not understand the meaning of
Quote:
Honour is something subjective, some people view it as a disrespect if they lost that they arent finished off. What you gonna say about that that those people are dumb idiotic? Others even see it as idiotic to let someone live when you have the chance to kill him. Anyone can have his own view. However Graham fight by his own belief and sees that as honorable. I skipped the WW1 part cuz i rather have you understand the important issues 1st
Quote:
Graham would kill too if he were to fight Ali. If assume an all out battle between the 2 and not the stupid restriction you people seem to put on just so you can be right. A fight between these 2 would not be creditable if 1 side has restrictions.
Quote:
Im saying you guys pick circumstances that are obvious who will win when the objective is to kill. Whereas im saying in war anything can go. If they go all out meaning intend to kill both side would pick something to take out the other in such a situation both Ali and graham would pick something to kill.

Your example just says ALi would go out in his normal suit Whereas Graham would go unarmed. For me such examples to prove your point are simply dumb.
Nyxone your whole point is like this. If jesus and satin where to fight honorable jesus would lose because satin is a ruthless mofo.

I say Well if they would fight i bet it depends on who has more power seeing how jesus made satin or something in that line satin could pretty well be owned. So it doenst depend on whether satin is ruthless rather who has more power and circumstances of the battle or what these 2 do to do what they always do lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by NyxOne View Post
He says "Fuck you" to precepts and rules of combat- which do exist- and fights like a wild beast, and dominates people in the process- case in point, his most recent battle.
So what

someone honorable can do the same. War is in essence without rules. Both involve killing indiscriminately of enemies. Rules of combat do exist because SOME countries apply them but THEY ARE NOT the defining factor what decides who will win as you decide that ruthless is the case to win

Many rebel soldier in Africa are ruthless however America who views his way of war honorable can own them any day.

This example i just gave you just pawned your entire ruthless is supposed to be the thing that puts Ali above graham. You cannot say that with any proof or logic whatsoever. Its all in your head

Quote:
Originally Posted by NyxOne View Post
He is relentless, without mercy, without compassion, without remorse, and without any sense of ruth. (And there's a difference between being ruthless because one, along with their skills, is a beast on the battlefield, and one being apparently 'ruthless' because they're following orders.
Geuss what Ali wanted to troll more with Setsuna and Tiera then the other way around.

Tiera had more hate AND setsune to KILL ALi then other way around your whole he attacks ruthless is so nonsense as the entire fight had intents to kill.

NOne of them whatsoever hesitated to end the other ones life.

THey thus do not have any remorse for the opponent whatsoever. You watch this show completely weird. Do i need to put screenshots up to show how much setsuna and tiera want to kill Ali?


In fact Slick_rick hints this a biut out with saying that ruthlessness can be negative in battles too. Thus enforces what i say that. WHat puts ali above others is not his ruthlessness but his pilotting skills Experience ability to adapt in situation having no fear etc. I also in the beginning said if you feel that ruthlessness give him an edge fine. However i do not believe that is the deciding factor.

The thing that put Ali above Tiera and setsuna is Experience, (Piloting)skill adaptability.

Ruthlessness had nothing to do with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NyxOne View Post
You want a real-life definition of ruthless, look at the Russians in WWII around the closing stages. They were following their own orders- namely, kill any German in sight, whereas the Americans were following set objectives and not raging like total madmen. That is RUTHLESSNESS.
I dont get what your saying here your saying. Nor can anyone else deduce anything from this.

Your saying both side are in war they both kill just that the US just captures alot of german soldier whereas the sowjet just kills them on sight.

How does this have to do with ali being better then Graham because is more ruthless?

There is no comparable logic here.

If you at least wanted to use this example you would have to say the Sowjet was more effective in killing germans and state that with proof in fact the eastern front was TOO large for the german army to defend compared with the Western front. Nor did the americans have anywhere near the men of the sowjet army, and the fact that the russians had way more deaths on their side and suffering thus more reason to fight. ALso the reason why the eastern front became easier for the Sowjet was because the americans where attackingon DDay. if there was no DDay. That front would still be going on for god knows.

Thus this example shows nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NyxOne View Post
Graham, on the other hand, fights, AGAIN, with a strict moral code in mind and abides by an equally strict code of honor. He battles as if the rules of combat- and rules are made to be broken- cannot be broken. If it were Ali, or any other soldier, he would have gutted the downed 00 when he had the chance, but AGAIN, Graham didn't, because he fights with honor. Now, use what logic you have, and pit someone who fights by honor to the letter against someone who does the exact opposite, and someone who is a merciless murderer like Ali is.
Fighting with a strict moral code does not mean you would lose or have a disadvantage.

It can just as easily give him more pride and reason to fight good

if looking at grahams personality if he were to fight like Ali his Performance would go down. He would not perform good because he would go against his code of honor.

Thus ruthlessness can not be a factor that decide what comes on top.

Ali fighting Graham would have to be a fight to the death. In such a fight neglectfulness of Graham to kill would either mean if Graham has the chance to kill but does not that graham indeed is a better pilot because he has the chance but does not do it means the fight would go on extendedly

or that Graham does not want to kill and thus has a disadvantage (Graham is thus not fighting to the death) and not taking it serious. This would mean that the fight is not creditable as the intentions and circumstances are different.

The only creditable fight would be for both to go for the kill and see who would win. Ruthless would not matter as both would use a ruthless attack to take the other down
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyxOne View Post
I'm fully expecting your ego to shine, though, so I don't expect anything good out of you.
Look whether you dont like to be proven wroing and nag about it has nothing to do with the correctlness of things i say

You DO not have a case here face it. Unlike you i know when im not right i stated this the moment i saw Ali's performance this ep by saying that you had a point on him being better granted that he has a better suit and stuff.

I still do not go to lengths like you to just get my right when you dont have any case whatsoever.
Quote:
I actually wanted to avoid getting into this argument as I found it fairly pointless but I'll just weigh in a bit.

While I do see situations where Ali's ruthlessness would be beneficial I also feel it other situations where it can be a problem. Let's take when Ali critically damaged Lockon's Gundam in S1. He's ruthlessly went in to kill Lockon and that what lead to his Gundam being destroyed and him getting hurt. When you know you enemy is just out to kill you and won't allow you to surrender you will be more prone to fighting to the death instead of surrendering. He has a bounty on his head by most of the Gundam pilots already. He is hated and many characters would kill him if they had the opportunity. I think most will agree that his chance of dying this season is well past 100 percent while Graham has a decent chance of actually living.

Ruthlessness can be extremely beneficial but it's highly dependent on the situation and can be equally a hindrance. Because, Ali is more ruthless doesn't mean he's better or worse than Graham though or would win a fight between the two.
Well thats what im been trying to say sorta

I can pretty much say the same thing but from the other way that i believe you need to be a pussy to get on top because pussies in most anime's always seem to win. This is the type of reasoning they use.

Ali is just 1 individual on top who just happened to be is ruthless. it could just as easily be someone who is honorable for all ai care. I wouldnt say he won because he is honorable thats crap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mechabao
@wtfftw
I was writing a couple of lengthy replies but I kept losing them due to random power outages where I live. Anyway, here goes my response:
thats sucks


Quote:
Originally Posted by mechabao
I never said Ali didn't have extensive experience, skill, and tactics. However, unlike someone whose options in combat are limited because they follow some pre-established rules of engagement(Meisters, Graham, A-Laws and Federation grunts), Ali just doesn't give a fuck about morals, ethics, or rules. Which is what makes those rules of air combat even deadlier in his hands. If throwing a bus full of civilians at the enemy mobile suit would give him the upper hand in a fight, he won't think twice about doing so.
i wasnt so much talking about you saying that he didnt have those but those for me matter.

The things is mechabao you and others who support you need to come with valuable proof showing that Graham when fighting setsuna is limiting himself. Show this please instead of just assuming that Graham is fighting with a handicap. The only thing you could pretty much throw at him is saying he doenst have a gundam.

Graham has already chopped Exia as much as he could. And is till going for the intent to kill everytime he fights 00

Actually Graham doenst give a fuck either he doesnt listen to anyone but himself nor does he hestitate to kill. For all that matters A-LAWS has no rules of engagement what so ever. They did not warn kataron they is gonna deploy automations did they? A-LAWS does what it wants. You guys need to stop making up stuff.

Rules of engagement also do not always limit options to fight in fact they enhance the ability to attack and the safety of men and also the effectiveness of attacks.

The meisters for one dont have any rules of engagement whatsoever.

the only one i see holding to the rules of engagement at this point is the federation and that would only be when attacking other countries. Whereas A-LAWS would just go in and shoot anyone they please.

And if you wanna say well yeah the meisters had plans to do this and that so thats a rules of engagement that ALi is been under rules of engagement just as much as he isnt attacking just because he is working as mercinarry and thus also falls under the so called rules of engagement.

Anyhow it still does not hold when talking about ruthlessness. AS the attack to kill on itself is ruthless. The reason why these rules exist is because they have objective. if the freaking objective is to capture you are not going kill. This even applies to ali so even he has his own restrictions just that you guys dont seem to know they exist for him.

About the buss being thrown at the enemy. Its very unlikely it would even make a difference seeing how any pilot could just fly away when its is thrown at to them. Dont really know what to make of that part^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by mechabao
And I stand by my statement that the Meisters are in fact relatively incompetent pilots who use their Gundams as a crutch due to their crappy piloting skills. The only reason they owned entire armies was 80% due to their massive technological advantage in season 1 and only 20% due to piloting ability. That and because the writers said so.
Difference of opinion id take any of the meisters over the grunts though



Quote:
I agree that being ruthless doesn't automatically equate to being victorious but it does give you a significant advantage. In a game of one-upmanship, the one who wins is the person who's willing to go to extremes.

I also agree that having a reputation as bad as the one which Ali has isn't exactly good for one's well-being in the long term. Unless Ali is the 00 version of Yazan from Zeta and ZZ.
If you know ruthless doesnt equate to being victorious then you also know it does not matter in an all down battle between ALi and Graham

what do you mean with the one upmans?

anyway take Ali vs Setsuna and Tiera

Please tell me and those who do not know what you mean what Ali did in that fight what can be seen as ruthless.

Quote:
one thing, notice that Ali never uses his fangs for long, unlike Michael in S1. And he never used his fangs against 00.

He is a pro pilot who only uses the special weapons when the situation calls for it.

Besides, wtfftw, your opinions are so self-centred. Either look on the different perspectives or just gouge your eyes out.
nah im like if you say something wrong then im gonna tell why its wrong.

anyway i bolded some parts in your quote

The 1st bolded part has to do either with preference/suit limits/tactic
2nd bold part has to do with piloting skills
3rd only uses -> deciding(the ability to decide whats best)
4th last resort because of some negative effect/special skill/putting more effort

So which of these have anything to do with Ruthless if i respond on someone saying otherwise it doesnt have to do with being self centered.

in fact none of these have to do with ruthlessness

Quote:
My opinion... Ali figures that(experience) the OO is too fast for the fangs to even hit it so he has abandoned that idea of using it(priorities)...

The 00 is a close combat type and moves too fast... Unless you force him into a corner just like what Michael did to Howard in season 1 and then deploy the fangs to attack or use the fangs in the most unexpected way (planning a sneak attack, attacking the 00 from behind, etc...), the fangs are useless against the 00...

That is what i believe anyways.
I get what you mean and im not saying you said he is using ruthlessness here but do you get my point when im like dude the smart things he does in battles have nothing to do with being ruthless when fighting

Quote:
I just don't see how one can still argue that A-LAWS answers and operates within any boundaries set by the Federation. Okay, they "officially" are the secret police of the federation we know that, but they work by themselves and act as they deem fit to "keep peace".
mechabao already answered it i guess pretty much what i been saying the whole time >.>


im gonna close on this subject so ill just say the last this i wanted to say

ALi

set up children to fight wars didnt even feel shit about it
Ali killed civilians who could not fight back didnt see mecha. Nor does the entire city need to burn for that
Or killing Saji's sis who did not have an intend to fight or kill and killed her without remorse

These 3 things are ruthless

you cannot see look at an all out battle and pin what happened in azadistan or saji's sis to well ALi is ruthless so he would win. It has no logic in it whatsoever.

Burnining down some 3rd world country with technology thats way beyond their lvl did not require any skill what so ever. Graham would never do this not because he didnt think he could not do it but because he finds its stupid and dishonorable. This would not mean that if this was Grahams home town and Graham would go 200% seed mode he could not beat ali because ali is ruthless.

This entire ruthless argument has no solid proof and logic.

Last edited by wtfftw; 2008-12-07 at 08:08.
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Old 2008-12-07, 08:57   Link #493
NyxOne
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...What do you mean 'it has no logic', when, taking Ali's whole style of fighting into account, and, this:

Quote:
set up children to fight wars didnt even feel shit about it
Ali killed civilians who could not fight back didnt see mecha. Nor does the entire city need to burn for that
Or killing Saji's sis who did not have an intend to fight or kill and killed her without remorse
You just SAID he was ruthless. And...you know, what, *Insert code of honor stuff here*. I'm tired of explaining myself.
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Old 2008-12-07, 09:00   Link #494
StratoSpear
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I... think it'll be better if you let him loose on his logic. Let someone else take the honor to explain.
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Old 2008-12-07, 10:18   Link #495
Tsukou
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I'm not going to lie, I'm really glad I asked who would win in a fight between Ali and Graham, even though it is a dream match that will most likely never come to fruition..

Reading wtf's responses.. is tiring to say the least.. but from what I can understand, and while episode 10 is all ready out, I'll still post this in 9.

The reason most people believe Ali's "ruthlessness" but I'd call it "savageness" would outshine Graham's "honor" is pretty simple. The most relevant thing I can think of are Samurais and Ninjas. Samurai's have the Bushido, and from my understanding, a part of respect is to never show your back to a fellow swordsman. To slash another Samurai in the back is considered a great dishonor. While for a Ninja, the only code a Ninja has is to assassinate his target. Whether he be sleeping, or doing it with a prostitute, a Ninja waits for his chance, and strikes when he's 100% sure of the kill.

While an attack from a Samurai is from the front, the attack of a Ninja is from the back. I don't believe a ninja really cares whether or not he killed his target in an unfair manner, because ultimately, it is one's own responsibility to take care of their own life. While for a Samurai this is a dishonor.

Ali is not beyond using dirty schemes to get advantages in a fight. It's especially apparent when he basically says, it's not his fault Lockon went into the fight with a bad right eye. But then we look at Graham, who fought Setsuna recently, and even though Gundam 00 was floating right infront of him, he did not want to win in this manner. This is an apparent difference in their two ideologies.

Of course, swordplay and mecha-warfare, are definitely different, Graham is (imo) above mindless killing and the slaughter of defenseless people, while Ali is the kind of man who thrives on it. While Graham has the spirit of a samurai warrior, Ali has the savagery of a wild beast.

The ruthlessness everyone is talking about is a definitive key in winning a battle. It's the difference between a moment's hesitation and an instant reaction. In sword match, if one of the players kicks sand in the other guy's eyes and then stabs him without skipping a beat, this is both experience, and a sense of ruthlessness. A will to do whatever it takes to win, and take whatever opportunity presents itself, even if it means playing dirty.

Intent to kill and ruthlessness are a completely different concept. Obviously when someone gets into a mech, as corny as it was.. Lelouch from CG said it really well, "Those who are prepared to be shot, shoot." Obviously everyone in this show has that the second they ride a mech. Mech vs Mech obviously everyone is willing to go for the kill, but you saw Ali shoot the Trinity brothers, and then fight one of them, even though he was shot.

Ok.. this is getting too long, so I'll wrap it up. For the reasons above, a moral code can get in the way of finishing a kill, aka Graham vs Setsuna, in episode.. 7.. I believe, or 8.. can't remember. A boxer who uses his elbows, or punches below the belt, has an advantage over someone who doesn't. It doesn't mean he will win, but it is an advantage. Ali is the guy who, when the ref isn't looking, hits behind the head, or gives a crotch shot, it's unfair, but that's his style. Aiming for weaknesses, like in Lockon's case is not a bad thing, in fact it's a rule in any sport, to aim for the weaknesses, but it's just a different of ideology in which Graham chooses to confront 100%. Meh I drifted in and out, if it doesn't make sense, whatever..
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Old 2008-12-07, 12:32   Link #496
wtfftw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyxOne View Post
...What do you mean 'it has no logic', when, taking Ali's whole style of fighting into account, and, this:.
Because in war when going for the kill ruthless does not matter because killing on itself is ruthless.

Graham doing ruthless things because somehow it supposed to do add an advantage might actually make him less effective


Those 3 things i quoted have to do with Ali being ruthless

Having no compassion or pity; merciless, feeling or showing no mercy, adjective merciless, hard, severe, fierce, harsh, cruel, savage, brutal, stern, relentless, adamant, ferocious, callous, heartless, unrelenting, inhuman, inexorable, remorseless, barbarous, pitiless, unfeeling, hard-hearted, without pity, unmerciful, unpitying, without pity a ruthless attack; a ruthless tyrant

All these points above apply in this show to killing or doing something harsh to someone else(basically war). In none of these does it say it will add you an advantage over enemies.

You have not been able to counter this

Quote:
Many rebel soldier in Africa are ruthless however America who views his way of war honorable can own them any day.
do i need to describe what those rebels do with people who cannot fight back.

American soldier most of the time^^ do not go on just raiding villages. They are told only to fight soldier who can fight back.

SO ruthlessness has no meaning what so ever.

The 3 points about ALi are cases in which people cannot even do anything back. Thats why you view him as ruthless this does not have to do with piloting or being a better pilot or that he should have an advantage next battle. Yes you can say he won in killing innocent people i do not regard that as great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NyxOne View Post
.You just SAID he was ruthless. And...you know, what, *Insert code of honor stuff here*. I'm tired of explaining myself.
dont get this what do you mean with this?


@Tsukou the whole attack in the back your taking this out of proportion. If you go back in time and see feudal samurai war you will undoubtfully see 1 zerg of samurai attacking a smaller ground and just as easily killing them in the back

The whole attacking in the back has to do with either its a match to the death (a challange) or just when you have no beef with someone who then attacks you when you werent alert. That does not show how Graham vs ALi, Ali would get the upperhand.

What your saying is equivalent to Ali being a ninja on Graham. Graham who is just chilling in central park being shot by Ali. how does this has anyting to do with showing that Ali's savageness puts him above Graham is beyond me.

But what you can grasp is that one is not even targetting the other while the other intend is to kill.

Samurai's hate ninja due to the fact they attack unprovoked or when not expected. It does not tell how good each side is just that another takes an opportunity over the other. If however they are faced off against each other and anything goes. Then Graham would just as easily kick sand in someones face to win.

I have seen countless of good guys kick sand in an evil characters face just to win or take an advantage. Even in this ep you see CB use Smoke to take away the enemies vision. The enemy did not say how CHEAP was it to use SMOKE. The entire warfare is based on deception and deceiving.

Savageness or ruthlessness has nothing to with being a better pilot. If you wanna go about making savage moves if that is needed or crap like that.

Both Ali and Graham would use such. Moves in Fact Graham and Setsuna All tried to attack each other from the back to take the other down.

In fact fighting like a total savage can injure you more then you actually gain from it. Graham pretty much coughed blood because he was fighting like a madman in his pumped up suit.

Quote:
Intent to kill and ruthlessness are a completely different concept. Obviously when someone gets into a mech, as corny as it was.. Lelouch from CG said it really well, "Those who are prepared to be shot, shoot." Obviously everyone in this show has that the second they ride a mech. Mech vs Mech obviously everyone is willing to go for the kill, but you saw Ali shoot the Trinity brothers, and then fight one of them, even though he was shot.
This does not show how Ali is taking an advantage over him since the dude was already down. I have said it already Ruthlessness what you guys are talking about relates to the fact when someone isnt able to fight on to just go make him hurt more does not describe how he got an advantage over a dude that was already down

Quote:
The ruthlessness everyone is talking about is a definitive key in winning a battle. It's the difference between a moment's hesitation and an instant reaction. In sword match, if one of the players kicks sand in the other guy's eyes and then stabs him without skipping a beat, this is both experience, and a sense of ruthlessness. A will to do whatever it takes to win, and take whatever opportunity presents itself, even if it means playing dirty.
Dude someone that is honourable when killing someone is still ruthless in the eyes or family who he killed.

The thing that can put someone above another is the bold parts I have stated those all over my post. Ruthless is not the same as not hesitating and instant reaction.

Having no compassion or pity not the same as not hesitating; merciless not the same as not hesitating, feeling or showing no mercy not the same as not hesitating, adjective merciless not the same as not hesitating, hard not the same as not hesitating, etc.

Someone that views himself as honorable can do something without hesitation he doesnt per se need to be ruthless to do something without hesitation.

This is why hesitation stands lose from ruthless
Quote:
Of course, swordplay and mecha-warfare, are definitely different, Graham is (imo) above mindless killing and the slaughter of defenseless people, while Ali is the kind of man who thrives on it. While Graham has the spirit of a samurai warrior, Ali has the savagery of a wild beast.
Id say a savaged beast can just as easily be killed by a honorable person as the other way around. Just depends on who is more skilled in piloting, has the best reflexes etc. if the goal is to take the other one out.

Tsukou Ill tell you why in war and in an all out battle between Graham and Ali all these things you say do not matter for in ep 15 S1 Graham found it dishonorable to fight with so many Suits against 4 suits Now he did not say he was not going to do it. He still fought. This shows that the whole RUthless and OOH mister Honorable does not hold when it comes to war both a ruthless person and honorable become equal when its about war => WAr is ruthless. All attacks used by either are to for the kill.

Last edited by wtfftw; 2008-12-07 at 13:28.
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Old 2008-12-07, 13:14   Link #497
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Did anyone else notice when Graham and Billy were talking that Graham seemed to have understood how the battle would already turn out? I'm referring to him saying he had no interest in "ship to ship combat" and Billy being impressed that that he was that deep into strategy. I'm curious as to how good of a tactician Graham actually is.
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Old 2008-12-08, 00:25   Link #498
mechabao
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@wtfftw
The thing is, Graham doesn't go for the kill versus the 00. If he were, Setsuna would have been dead after their first fight.

The fact that he's only out to duel(similar to an honorable duel between two samurai/European nobles) the 00/Setsuna means that he will never resort to the same tactics that Ali would resort to using.

Of course the A-Laws wouldn't warn Kataron. A real-life equivalent of them giving Kataron a heads up would be like the US military warning Al-Qaeda that they're going to bomb one of their bases at an appointed time using X amount of planes and bombs. Specially considering that Kataron is the 00 universe's equivalent of <insert major terrorist group name here>, the A-Laws high command wouldn't want to risk their soldier's lives by sending them into a terrorist stronghold.

You already gave the answer regarding Ali's ruthlessness in the fight against Setsuna and Tieria. Toying with your opponents and mocking them is something that could be described as ruthless. As I said before, Ali absolutely revels in fighting and killing. By toying with both Meisters, he's savoring the moment.

By the way, if the three alliances that existed prior to the Earth Federation's founding didn't have an equivalent of the Geneva Convention, you'd see people using NBC weapons left and right with zero regard as to the consequences of using those types of weapons.

PS
After the awesomeness of the Ion Cannon shot in ep.10, A-Laws has finally taken that crucial step towards being the big, bad military force that Sunrise, CB, and Kataron have been talking about.
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Old 2008-12-08, 14:22   Link #499
wtfftw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechabao View Post
@wtfftw
The thing is, Graham doesn't go for the kill versus the 00. If he were, Setsuna would have been dead after their first fight.

The fact that he's only out to duel(similar to an honorable duel between two samurai/European nobles) the 00/Setsuna means that he will never resort to the same tactics that Ali would resort to using.

Of course the A-Laws wouldn't warn Kataron. A real-life equivalent of them giving Kataron a heads up would be like the US military warning Al-Qaeda that they're going to bomb one of their bases at an appointed time using X amount of planes and bombs. Specially considering that Kataron is the 00 universe's equivalent of <insert major terrorist group name here>, the A-Laws high command wouldn't want to risk their soldier's lives by sending them into a terrorist stronghold.

You already gave the answer regarding Ali's ruthlessness in the fight against Setsuna and Tieria. Toying with your opponents and mocking them is something that could be described as ruthless. As I said before, Ali absolutely revels in fighting and killing. By toying with both Meisters, he's savoring the moment.

By the way, if the three alliances that existed prior to the Earth Federation's founding didn't have an equivalent of the Geneva Convention, you'd see people using NBC weapons left and right with zero regard as to the consequences of using those types of weapons.

PS
After the awesomeness of the Ion Cannon shot in ep.10, A-Laws has finally taken that crucial step towards being the big, bad military force that Sunrise, CB, and Kataron have been talking about.
lol didn't know you thought so high about Graham :O

Well if graham isnt going for the kill and ali is fooling around i see that pretty much as the same i guess.

Makes you wonder how graham actually would kill 00 would it have to be a double stab or some kind of wild wild west revolver ending like last season.
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Old 2008-12-09, 11:40   Link #500
astranagun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfftw View Post
lol didn't know you thought so high about Graham :O

Well if graham isnt going for the kill and ali is fooling around i see that pretty much as the same i guess.

Makes you wonder how graham actually would kill 00 would it have to be a double stab or some kind of wild wild west revolver ending like last season.
Simply destroying it during a normal 1-on-1 fight or after having it disarmed, no?

And no, I'm not saying this scenario will happen; only that this is the most probable situation.
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