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Old 2004-05-17, 14:16   Link #81
Devin
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
I'd like to see this actually get released in the US. Dispite it's supposed licensing, I still have my doubts.

The realness of this series (and the topic incestual romance) would make it difficult for American consumption, I think.
Hi there TronDD, I somewhat disagree on with you on that one. I mean, if americans may find it difficult to watch Koi Kaze, they'd find it appalling to watch Angel Sanctuary, which has been licensed in the U.S. for awhile now, and is well... the most blatant anime with incest that i know of, heh. So i think Koi Kaze will be fine, because it has made the incest issue tasteful to watch with the innocence of it all. Oh and Onegai Twins has been licensed recently too, so i think there are more liberal thinkers in the U.S. that watches animes than before.
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Old 2004-05-17, 16:20   Link #82
boneyjellyfish
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I've really been enjoying Koi Kaze lately. In fact, I just watched the first five episodes today. However...

Episodes four and five disturbed me to no ends. It was more than enough without having to realize that he was masturbating after sniffing his sister's underwear.
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Old 2004-05-17, 18:23   Link #83
TronDD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devin
Hi there TronDD, I somewhat disagree on with you on that one. I mean, if americans may find it difficult to watch Koi Kaze, they'd find it appalling to watch Angel Sanctuary, which has been licensed in the U.S. for awhile now, and is well... the most blatant anime with incest that i know of, heh. So i think Koi Kaze will be fine, because it has made the incest issue tasteful to watch with the innocence of it all. Oh and Onegai Twins has been licensed recently too, so i think there are more liberal thinkers in the U.S. that watches animes than before.
I have not seen Angel Sanctuary, but Onegai Twins and Koi Kaze are very different. I think it's "safer" to portray some of the controversial issues in a comedy setting. That's why I specifically mentioned the realness of Koi Kaze. Also, unlike the incest (and other types of romance) in most anime, Koi Kaze is physical about it. Most shows don't go as far as a character actually having an orgasm over their sibbling.

Maybe it's not so hard to sell to Americans, I sure don't know the content of everything that's on the shelf at a movie store. It's just something I wouldn't expect to see there.
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Old 2004-05-18, 08:27   Link #84
Dagger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
I have not seen Angel Sanctuary, but Onegai Twins and Koi Kaze are very different.
Angel Sanctuary is *very* dark, angsty and... well, un-comedic.
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Old 2004-05-18, 08:31   Link #85
TronDD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magus IX
Angel Sanctuary is *very* dark, angsty and... well, un-comedic.
Yeah, I did a little reading up on it. Doesn't seem like it'd be as *real* as Koi Kaze. Regardless, either Koi Kaze hits shelves in the US or it doesn't. I hope it does and people seem to think it will and it does have a US licenser fronting money for it.
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Old 2004-05-19, 04:46   Link #86
Iron Monkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
Yeah, I did a little reading up on it. Doesn't seem like it'd be as *real* as Koi Kaze. Regardless, either Koi Kaze hits shelves in the US or it doesn't. I hope it does and people seem to think it will and it does have a US licenser fronting money for it.
Yeah, the issue with Koi Kaze is that there is no fantasy element whatsoever. Everything that takes place in the anime is in a real life setting, with real life problems. Thus, it might make a lot of people a litte uncomfortable to watch it.
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Old 2004-05-19, 14:16   Link #87
TronDD
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Woah. A little slip of the tongue in episode 6.
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Old 2004-05-20, 00:01   Link #88
Za Paper
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After what onii-chan said at the end of ep 6, I wonder if he would be in love with her when she gets older. If not, then he has a real problem.
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Old 2004-05-20, 04:40   Link #89
FeiFongWong
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I've already seen ep.7 raw, and have been waiting for ep. 8 raw ;-) 7 is good... now lets see how do you use spoiler tags...


Spoiler:


Hehe, when you watch as much anime as I do, not to hard to figure out whats going on, only the names of things I have a hard time with. Ohh, and no idea what the next episode preview says. ;-)
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Old 2004-05-20, 10:01   Link #90
Gorksnip
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Aside from him being her much older brother, I thought it was ok for him to be shagging in bed while thinking about her, bra. I mean when I saw her clipping her nails I thought about playing with myself too! You know what I'm talking about right? She's kind of hot like that, bra!
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Old 2004-05-20, 11:25   Link #91
HaRoRuleZ
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Recently Broccoli who also possesses all 4 volumes of Koikaze manga doubted whether Koikaze really ends at the end of volume 4 and asked me to check "Evening," a fortnightly manga magazine where Koikaze had been serialised whether the story would still continue there. I told him the followings.

1. The story could not be elaborated further.
2. Short extra manga following the last chapter of each volume from volume 1-3 was missing from volume 4.

Which implied that it should definitely ended. Therefore the story should end at the last chapter of volume 4.

I later took a look at Evening No. 11 (05/25) and Koikaze was not there. The longest pause between each volume was 3 issues between the last chapter of volume 3 and the first chapter of volume 4. The last page of volume 4 was published in Evening No. 6 this year which means Koikaze has been absent for 5 issues and now can be safely confirmed that the story ends at the last page of volume 4. Besides, the anime is now at 7/13 episodes and episode 7 ends at the end of volume 2, half way already.

--------------

Someone including the fansubbers, have referred to Koikaze as an incestuous show which is quite irritating. Let take a look at the meanings of "incest."


Quote:
Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary

incest, n.
1. sexual intercourse between closely related persons.
2. the crime of sexual intercourse, cohabitation, or marriage between persons within the degrees of consanguinity or affinity wherein marriage is legally forbidden.
[1175–1225; ME < L incestus (n.) sexual impurity, deriv. of incestus (adj.) profane, sexually impure (in- IN-3 + -cestus comb. form of castus CHASTE), by analogy with v. nouns derived with -tus]
Quote:
Longman - Dictionary of Contemporary English

incest, n. [U] a forbidden sexual relationship between close relatives in a family, e.g. between brother and sister or parent and child
Quote:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Incest is sexual activity between close family members. It is a taboo in most societies and a criminal offence and an impediment to marriage in most countries, as well as being opposed by most modern religions.

But the exact definition of what is a "close family member" varies widely: some jurisdictions consider only those related by birth, others also those related by adoption or marriage; some prohibit relations only with nuclear family members and ancestors or descendants, while others prohibit relations with aunts and uncles, nephews and nieces, and cousins as well.

The term is also sometimes used metaphorically and legally, to describe relationships between an authority figure and a pupil, such as teacher-student or troop leader and scout, or between those who are closely related in some other nonsexual way, as in an "incestuous relationship" between stockbrokers and mutual fund managers.
Sexual intercourse is clearly a main element of "incest." If you search the internet for incest then you can find a lot of pornography web sites leading to sex stories or photos of father XXX daughter, son XXX mother, and brother XXX sister, etc. and that represent the true meaning of incest.

Koikaze does present love and bond between siblings but not sexual intercourse between them.
Spoiler:
The author has carefully done a great job in presenting the story to its beautiful side. If you do enjoy the story why not try to promote it to its true contents?

Siblings' love story is not incestuous in English meaning. Misjudgingly imposing incest on Koikaze is not only tasteless but also scares away some audience from this beautiful love story.
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Old 2004-05-20, 13:28   Link #92
TronDD
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Quote:
Longman - Dictionary of Contemporary English

incest, n. [U] a forbidden sexual relationship between close relatives in a family, e.g. between brother and sister or parent and child
You don't think masturbating while thinking of the person makes it a sexual relationship? It's certainly a step further than the "normal" brother sister relationship.

The show doesn't show us an incestual relationship but it certainly is about incest. That's exactly what was on his mind while he was cleaning the pipes.
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Old 2004-05-20, 13:56   Link #93
HaRoRuleZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
You don't think masturbating while thinking of the person makes it a sexual relationship? It's certainly a step further than the "normal" brother sister relationship.

The show doesn't show us an incestual relationship but it certainly is about incest. That's exactly what was on his mind while he was cleaning the pipes.
Imagination during masturbation has nothing to do with incest which defies sexual ACTIVITY. Incest is a strong word. Longman dictionary says "sexual relationship" but masturbation is not a sexual relationship at all. It is personal pleasure and is just one side act. The other party does not take part to complete a sexual act. Do not omit what others dictionaries say as well. If you want to insist that incest covers imagination/thought you need to provide the proof.

By the way, incestuous is the correct adjective for incest.

Episode 8 just finished and it still stays on course of the manga.
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Old 2004-05-20, 14:35   Link #94
TronDD
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What he imagines during masturbation IS incest. Argeed? I think that makes incest a topic of the show worth mentioning.

Intercourse isn't the only "sexual" act.

Quote:
I prefer Marriam-Webster because the URL is short.

Main Entry: sex·u·al
Pronunciation: 'sek-sh(&-)w&l, 'sek-sh&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin sexualis, from Latin sexus sex
1 : of, relating to, or associated with sex or the sexes
Masturbation relates to sex, and desire for sex relates to sex.

Quote:
Main Entry: re·la·tion
Pronunciation: ri-'lA-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English relacioun, from Middle French relation, from Latin relation-, relatio, from referre (past participle relatus) to carry back
7 a : the state of being mutually or reciprocally interested (as in social or commercial matters)
That says to me, that if both parties desire eachother sexually (in the case of Koi Kaze, Koushirou has displayed such desire, though Nanoka hasn't) it is a sexual relationship. Even a nonmutual relationship is a relationship and can be a sexual one.
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Old 2004-05-20, 23:08   Link #95
Broccoli
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HaRoRuleZ
Episode 8 just finished and it still stays on course of the manga.
According to the official website, the 5/21 episode (「風花」, Kazahana = 'Snowflakes') is really episode 9. For some reason TV Asahi skipped episode 8 (「露霜」, Tsuyujimo = 'Frozen Dew'), which will be shown on Kids Station on 6/8.
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Old 2004-05-21, 00:46   Link #96
Grifis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
What he imagines during masturbation IS incest. Argeed? I think that makes incest a topic of the show worth mentioning.

Intercourse isn't the only "sexual" act.

Masturbation relates to sex, and desire for sex relates to sex.

That says to me, that if both parties desire eachother sexually (in the case of Koi Kaze, Koushirou has displayed such desire, though Nanoka hasn't) it is a sexual relationship. Even a nonmutual relationship is a relationship and can be a sexual one.
There's no incest in the show at least not yet. The definition of incest is intercourse sexual relationship between closely related individuals/family members or whatever. There's no actual sexual relationship here nor anything beyond brother/sister relationship for that matter. The younger sister may experience pure forbidden love on her part. The older brother, being adult, passed the point of pure forbidden love and started thinking of her in a sexual way. The act is forbidden but that doesn't make it incest. There's no sexual relationship between these 2 characters at this point and I doubt that'll happen later at the end. Besides you can't put an equal sign between what one thinks about doing with actually doing it. It's a big difference between thinking about kicking you and actually kicking you.

Also I wouldn't call it a relationship if there's no interaction that represents that relationship at all. In this case their interations represent brother/sister relationship. Once they declare their love for each other then they have their romantic relationship. If they go physical then it's offically incest. You wouldn't call an undeclared representation of interaction a relationship. If you have two people and they both like each other but when they see each other they act as friends, you can't say that they have a romantic relationship (eventhough in truth they both like each other). You can only say that they're only friends. In this case, brother/sister.

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Old 2004-05-21, 01:24   Link #97
TronDD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifis
There's no actual sexual relationship here nor anything beyond brother/sister relationship for that matter. The younger sister may experience pure forbidden love on her part. The older brother, being adult, passed the point of pure forbidden love and started thinking of her in a sexual way. The act is forbidden but that doesn't make it incest.
Your first sentence is contradicted by the 3rd. The brother's masturbation IS sexual and goes well beyond a brother/sister relationship. Whether or not that makes it incest, I say it does. In the same way, you thinking about kicking me has made your post violent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifis
Besides you can't put an equal sign between what one thinks about doing with actually doing it. It's a big difference between thinking about kicking you and actually kicking you.
I wasn't equating the two. Thinking about sex with your sister is not sex with your sister, however, sex with your sister would be incest; therefore thinking about sex with your sister is thinking about incest. What I am saying is that he has incest on his mind, therefore part of the show is about incest.

That quote is about violence, even though no physical violence occurs. It is still violence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifis
If you have two people and they both like each other but when they see each other they act as friends, you can't say that they have a romantic relationship (eventhough in truth they both like each other). You can only say that they're only friends. In this case, brother/sister.
You got me with this one. I think I can agree with that. In Koi Kaze, I will relent that they do not have an incestuous relationship. However, I still say the show is partially about incest.
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Old 2004-05-21, 01:29   Link #98
hunterx
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wow that's just stretching it. It's a show about a guy who falls in love with his sister, not that sisterly love we all have but the type reserved for non family members. The line was cross when he sniffed his sisters panties and masturbated. He doesn't have to have sex with her after that to say they are just friends is having your head up your ass. They are obviously in love with each other. But He hasn't done anything to her yet so it's not incest either.
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Old 2004-05-21, 02:25   Link #99
Devin
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Talking

Yah! Don't we all love "sibling love" animes. lol... You know there's always at least 1 or 2 "sibiling love" types of animes that comes out every year in Japan. And when that happens, tons moral debates ensue. ^_^ So interesting...
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Old 2004-05-21, 12:33   Link #100
HaRoRuleZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
What he imagines during masturbation IS incest. Argeed? I think that makes incest a topic of the show worth mentioning.
You may call it a lapse of incestuous desire but the show does not go on and on on that POINT. I am telling you that Koikaze does not present sexual intercourse between Koshiro and Nanoka in any form yet its contents do not reach to that point which invalidate any claims to put or lead Koikaze into INCEST GENRE.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
Intercourse isn't the only "sexual" act.
I am talking about incest that requires sexual intercourse to validate the term or else use other word. See below.

Quote:
Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary
sexual intercourse,
genital contact, esp. the insertion of the penis into the vagina followed by orgasm; coitus; copulation.
[1790–1800]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
That says to me, that if both parties desire eachother sexually (in the case of Koi Kaze, Koushirou has displayed such desire, though Nanoka hasn't) it is a sexual relationship. Even a nonmutual relationship is a relationship and can be a sexual one.
Relationship requires a connection. Imagination in one's mind does not validate a relationship.


From your reply to Grifis, I see that we can put this incest matter to rest.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Broccoli
According to the official website, the 5/21 episode (「風花」, Kazahana = 'Snowflakes') is really episode 9. For some reason TV Asahi skipped episode 8 (「露霜」, Tsuyujimo = 'Frozen Dew'), which will be shown on Kids Station on 6/8.
Affirmative. I was not aware of that. That answers my doubt why last night episode ended at chapter 19 so fast. Poor TV Asahi does not have enough time slot for just one episode. Hopefully the fansubbers and RAW hunters are aware of that and get the actual episode 8 out of that cable channel.
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