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Old 2008-12-15, 13:36   Link #1741
Avatar_notADV
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Yeah, seriously, Ark, give it up. The guys making this stuff don't break out protractors and calculators to ensure that it's all done exactly to "realistic scale". They do stuff that looks cool (they hope), even if it means breaking the ostensible physical laws of their world. Believing that you can take the end result, perform calculations upon it, and divine speeds and tension strengths and the like is mistaken to begin with.

Frankly, it's a mockery of "suspension of disbelief". Admit for a little while that the conventions of the art form do not admit to the kind of rigorous analysis that you'd like to apply. If that means you can't come up with incontrovertible, definitive answers to certain technical questions, well, there you go. It's certain that you've put significantly more thought into the matter than the people who were working on the show. They might have access to a series bible, and it might have certain technical information (though almost certainly dealing with the various magic systems, and with an eye to keeping them visually consistent, not defining them in a technical sense.) But the sort of thing you're trying to take out of the visuals was never put into them in the first place!

Maybe this is important technical data if you're trying to write Strikers fanfic. I dunno, I'll hold out hope for working on Strikers for real personally (low probability, Funi has their own in-house subtitlers. Then again, Nanoha was low-probability to start with...) Frankly, if you need technical data to work a certain way for your story, then define it that way! People might argue with your interpretation some, but nobody's pretending that you've deviated from a canon set of rules that everyone has access to.

Sheesh. Could we, y'know, discuss the fun aspects of the series and lay off counting blippin' frames like they mattered?
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Old 2008-12-15, 13:43   Link #1742
Evil Rick
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For sure, looking for physical laws on an anime/ comic/ animated movie or anithyng realted to ciencie fiction is ridiculous

I mean, how many people would care about that? How many people is looking forward to details like this on animated series or comics?

The list would be long in that case, Dragon Ball, Superman, Iron Man, Gundam Wing, Evangelion, Astro Boy, even the Power Puff Girls

Come on, those details are pointless
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Old 2008-12-15, 13:45   Link #1743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Rick View Post
For sure, looking for physical laws on an anime/ comic/ animated movie or anithyng realted to ciencie fiction is ridiculous

I mean, how many people would care about that? How many people is looking forward to details like this on animated series or comics?

The list would be long in that case, Dragon Ball, Superman, Iron Man, Gundam Wing, Evangelion, Astro Boy, even the Power Puff Girls

Come on, those details are pointless
Alas Ark cares and will therefore cram it down our throats.
If he likes it, fine by me. But expecting us to have to believe it?
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Old 2008-12-15, 14:03   Link #1744
Comartemis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Rick View Post
For sure, looking for physical laws on an anime/ comic/ animated movie or anithyng realted to ciencie fiction is ridiculous

I mean, how many people would care about that? How many people is looking forward to details like this on animated series or comics?

The list would be long in that case, Dragon Ball, Superman, Iron Man, Gundam Wing, Evangelion, Astro Boy, even the Power Puff Girls

Come on, those details are pointless
I never thought I'd say this to one of Rick's posts, but Quoted For Fuckin' Truth.
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Old 2008-12-15, 14:09   Link #1745
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... Jeez people, remember the ANIME laws of physics.

http://www.comicscommunity.com/board...24019&expand=1

This is becoming completely ridiculous. The purpose of the anime is to enjoy it!
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Old 2008-12-15, 14:16   Link #1746
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*shrug* My take is simply that ark is SODing because Nanoha has a larger audience. He hasn't been pulling this with Strike Witches, which makes even less sense, because the Strike Witches fandom is very, very quiet.

Actually, when one looks at this, it's rather sad, really. Unable to enjoy anime because you're spending too much time analysing it.

Now live action, that's a totally different kettle of fish. (I occasionally SOD The Unit and NCIS, though in both cases its more for random lulz, since both are set in the present and are pretty much operating on Earth rules. The Unit is about a Delta Force-like outfit (exec producer & technical advisor E. L. Haney was an early member of Delta and a Ranger Command Sergeant Major) while NCIS is about NCIS.

...I have a sudden urge to port the NCIS cast into the Nanoverse. Special Agent LJ Tibbs. Enforcer Lisa. Agents Tommy DiNardi & Timmy MacGregor. (Hey, McGee started it with porting the team into his books )
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Old 2008-12-15, 14:23   Link #1747
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Ya know, I've never once paid attention to these arguments of how far, how fast, and how strong, because they never really needs to be justified. I could care less the exact km/h speed of which the characters fly because I don't see the point. While it is true that some level of realism is needed to keep things from getting absolutely ridiculous, using mathematical calculations based on visual data doesn't really work here. Pixels, frame rates, they are all poor examples of scaling. Hell, math exams use it all the time: "this graph is not to scale."

I know what you may say. If it's not to scale, then why draw it like that? Because viewers would like to see it. If Nanoha really is flying supersonic speeds, it's going to be damn hard to see her fly by and catch all the details. Also, viewing angle and perspective can alter perception. That launch height data at first glance is rather silly to me, since the angle from which we view it IS NOT LEVEL.

In other words, "lol physics."

This is especially so when MAGICAL GIRLS are involved (emphasis on magical), because really, physics takes a back seat. The show's purpose is to entertain, and if it means violating some laws of physics (Look at the Metal Gear Solid Twin Snakes remake) to do so, then oh well. That's what Suspension of Disbelief is about.
Spoiler for lol SoD:
Now I return to writing about a character picking up a helicopter and beating a certain familiar to bits with it. Realistic? No. But it's entertaining. I hope.
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Old 2008-12-15, 14:36   Link #1748
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Helo extraction at the end of Mission 1, Chapter 1 of Call of Duty 4. The blackhawk is painted Air Force Gray, has Royal Air Force markings and roundel, the pilot is a true-blue american, and in the pilot & copilot seats are 2 Russian Spetsnaz dudes with fur caps.

Or Mission 2, the air insertion: USMC does NOT use blackhawks. Or the Mk19 with unlimited ammo: the MK19 is not used as a side gun on the CH-46. Or the unlimited ammo of the AC-130U in Death From Above (in the mission before, there are only 4 survivors of the Blackhawk crash: Soap, Gaz, Nikolai & Price. In Death From Above, which starts minutes after the mission where Price calls in thunder from above, the merry party has expanded to eight people by sheer force of magic. Which is surprising considering that the SAS party was only 3 people and the Spetsnaz people weren't picked up by that Blackhawk).

Does the player care? Fuck no; Death From Above is a Crowning Level of Awesome.

The player suspends his disbelief, sits back, and plays. (And actual, serving military personnel who've played CoD4 have no problems suspending disbelief. Even AC-130 crewmen.)
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Old 2008-12-15, 14:40   Link #1749
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Just stop it Arkh, you are just making the "Rule of Cool" people's collective meatrod harder; now they can laugh at people trying to pour a bit of sense in their fanon or trying to find the middle ground between making sense and pouring cool in their works, because if they are doing it, "DEY MUSS B ST00PID!!!".
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Old 2008-12-15, 14:42   Link #1750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Keroko, as usual, I wind up doing your calcs for you, again. As usual, the answers weren't what you wanted, again. Here it is:
http://arkhangelsk.110mb.com/MGLN/SS/manga/p99.html

But don't lose hope yet. I might have made a math error.
Good god, you're a lost case if you go this far to 'correct' a person talking about ANIME PHYSICS.
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Old 2008-12-15, 14:52   Link #1751
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Just stop it Arkh, you are just making the "Rule of Cool" people's collective meatrod harder; now they can laugh at people trying to pour a bit of sense in their fanon or trying to find the middle ground between making sense and pouring cool in their works, because if they are doing it, "DEY MUSS B ST00PID!!!".
Ark does not write fanfiction. Therefore, he can continue to his heart's content, because none of this affects him in any way.

Us in Cadia? We get to pick up the pieces.
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Old 2008-12-15, 14:53   Link #1752
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Ark has been a lost case for as long as most of us can remember. Kero's the only one who really takes him seriously; him and Jimmy now, I guess. The rest of us mostly just ignore him and concentrate on having fun with this series instead of SoDomizing it.
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Old 2008-12-15, 22:08   Link #1753
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Maybe this is important technical data if you're trying to write Strikers fanfic.
Not even actually. Most of us at the Fanfic and Original Character Threads (FFT and OCT respectively) don't even give a damn about said rigorous calculations. What we aim for is consistency and believability, not precision, the latter which is what ark seems to be aiming for.

We go with believable, not realistic, because frankly how can you expect super realism in a series that has Magical in its title? Introduction of realism and justification in analysis only goes so far in a title where both aren't really high priorities in the presentation.

Animation does not lend itself to the rigorous calculations that it seems to have been given here because animation is such an imperfect medium for showing reality, due to differences in animation style, technique, budget, creation, etc... But then again, animation is perfect for showing UNREALISTIC things because it is not bound by the limits that would make portrayal of said fantastic elements in a live-action film technically difficult and expensive. Hence in animation, you can't go in with a ruler and slide-rule and expect things to measure up exactly as they would in animation, because that's not what the animator's goal is. Many of the more memorable animation works both in the past and the present are those that don't adhere to such strict rules anyway (there's a reason Walt Disney dominated the animation market for decades now).

This thread was created to attempt to make a semblance of sense into the Magic and Technology of the Nanoha series, which actually takes its portrayal of both elements more consistently and believably than your standard magical girl show. Still, there is a limit to the amount of hard calculation one can use on a franchise that uses fantastic elements before you run aground on the suspension of disbelief barrier, which results in an awful mess - like what just happened here. This is why in many arguments regarding technical matters in an animation work, reasonable believability within the bounds of the series' premise is more important than precision and realism. Besides, you can have all the technological realism you want and still be unbelievable: The James Bond series for example.
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Old 2008-12-15, 22:20   Link #1754
Evil Rick
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Not even actually. Most of us at the Fanfic and Original Character Threads (FFT and OCT respectively) don't even give a damn about said rigorous calculations. What we aim for is consistency and believability, not precision, the latter which is what ark seems to be aiming for.

We go with believable, not realistic, because frankly how can you expect super realism in a series that has Magical in its title? Introduction of realism and justification in analysis only goes so far in a title where both aren't really high priorities in the presentation.

Animation does not lend itself to the rigorous calculations that it seems to have been given here because animation is such an imperfect medium for showing reality, due to differences in animation style, technique, budget, creation, etc... But then again, animation is perfect for showing UNREALISTIC things because it is not bound by the limits that would make portrayal of said fantastic elements in a live-action film technically difficult and expensive. Hence in animation, you can't go in with a ruler and slide-rule and expect things to measure up exactly as they would in animation, because that's not what the animator's goal is. Many of the more memorable animation works both in the past and the present are those that don't adhere to such strict rules anyway (there's a reason Walt Disney dominated the animation market for decades now).

This thread was created to attempt to make a semblance of sense into the Magic and Technology of the Nanoha series, which actually takes its portrayal of both elements more consistently and believably than your standard magical girl show. Still, there is a limit to the amount of hard calculation one can use on a franchise that uses fantastic elements before you run aground on the suspension of disbelief barrier, which results in an awful mess - like what just happened here. This is why in many arguments regarding technical matters in an animation work, reasonable believability within the bounds of the series' premise is more important than precision and realism. Besides, you can have all the technological realism you want and still be unbelievable: The James Bond series for example.
I guess that for that it's called "Cience Fiction"

If we the fanfic creators would care about calculatrions and realistic in ou works, we should never present nothing lol

I mean, just think abou this on the Nanoha series... mages who fly and have the power of a nuclear bomb in their hands... how realistic is that?
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Old 2008-12-16, 04:53   Link #1755
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Guys...

Horse.

Boxing Glove.

Coffin.


Get the picture? It seems like every time we go through an analysis routine, it comes back to us like a boomberang from hell. Almost like every two months we come full circle.


Sure, the topics are subjective and yeah, we have to apply logic as well as creative intent to get a balanced perspective. But drilling the same tired argument over and over again to someone who is NOT going to listen to it (because it's been tried for a year straight with absolutely NIL for results), is a waste of bandwidth.

If you're going to take part in a technical discussion, expect some pretty hard core technical observations. Just take those observations with a grain of salt, put it in the backburner of Useless Geek Knowledge and think about it when formulating your final oppinion based on the Technical, the Logical, and the Intent.

Because if I hear someone justify their counter-argument with "It's Anime! It's a show with the World MAGICAL in the title"
ONE! MORE! TIME!...









Understand?

*twitch*
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Old 2008-12-16, 05:20   Link #1756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
They may not be "fried food", so the more experienced people still have a chance.
They will only have a chance if the infilitrator is weak. Yet, if they are so weak, it seems unlikely they can create a barrier that won't quickly go down under the might of a team of Aces.

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Not to say it's not a bad idea, but I would agree with them that it's not important enough to animate.
Normally, had they not busted the line enough people actually start auditing, that's fine. But when the audit starts...

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It doesn't cast fast enough. Ten shots, wait, ten shots, repeat.
During which others shoot. Teamwork.

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I think I see the problem, you keep thinking of the energy flow as a percentage, what if it's a set number instead? It could be a tiny fraction of Fate's S-rank output, but a larger percentage of her AA-rank output, yet not enough to impact her performance.
I will have to admit that would solve that problem, but a set number would imply a paower regulator on the supply magic itself. So we are now trading off possible complexity on the limiter system for definite complexity on the familiar system. Plus your system will STILL deny the TSAB the advantages. Given how they need mages...

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Did you miss the part where she mentioned that she was a (Master) Sargeant in the 108th Battalion? It's in ep10.
Wasn't she only a Sergeant? Anyway, a sergeant isn't what one thinks when he thinks "officer".

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She doesn't need direct help that much these days. And those do beat sitting around waiting for something that may not happen (even though it in fact did).
Sure, her adopted daughter gets kidnapped and Fate gets to face off two enemies that are more or less in her class. Uh... she doesn't need help? Are you sure?

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There don't appear to be that many of those that are using limiters. Of that small number, it seems that only Fate has a familiar. So I doubt it's worth the effort to create an exception.
Why is it not the standard?

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You're treating the Linker Core like it's a physical object with a port labeled "Familiar Output Channel" then the clamp the limiter elsewhere. You know that isn't the case!
I meant that allegorically.

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If you insist on dissecting the scenes that way, do note that Fate and Nanoha engage the drones in ep11 at 11:30, the scene then switches around a bit, finally Fate decides she needs to release her limiter at 15:00. Less than 5 minutes, but that fits what you asked for. There's also several opportunities for timejumps, so there's a possibility that there's more than 4:30 minutes of realtime between scenes 1 and 3 here.
Possibility needs to be made clear here

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Too late. Do you think everyone can instantly teleport to the field once the evac alarm sounds? It'll take a minute or 2 to run outside the building, then another minute or 2 to reach the field, at least 20 seconds to climb down the stairs and 10 more seconds to run into the field. Since they won't all be in a bunch and not all of them are as fit as the combat teams, the flow of people will last way more than that 4:30 minutes. Otto, Deed and the drones will certainly have arrived by then and started shooting. Now, Shamal and Zafira may have been able to hold the base for 10 minutes and keep everyone inside safe the whole time, but they can't possibly defend the length of that column for anywhere near as long.
Might have a point there. But what are these people, civvies? Assemble them in a cluster, and run for the field in a group. This should make this convoy easier to cover - in fact, it might be less coverage than defending the building. Remember that Otto and Deed didn't even come out until the defenders were heavily attrited. Get Shamal to cover them as they sprint for the field, and there's every chance everyone would get there in one piece.

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Could be quite a bit. Is it the the "ground level" of the abandoned city scenario, or the deepest basement in it? Losing power would be a bad time to find out, don't you think? Even if it's the former, they can't hide out in the open. And the buildings' ground floor may not be on the surface level either. A bit higher is survivable, but if it's lower instead...
How about choosing a sim scenario without a "basement"?

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Where in ep18? I can't seem to find it. The closest I can find is the pre-op where Hayate says HQ was paralyzed in minutes, not destroyed.
The attack on the HQ occurred near simultaneously with the attack on the RF6 HQ. And of course GF HQ wasn't destroyed.

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Considering the sophistication of the field as it is, the outlay to turn it into a fully integrated part of the base's defenses might have been beyond RF6's budget. They aren't swimming in funds you know.
THey were swimming enough in funds to have the field.

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And I realised there's another problem with using the field. Now the Borg may have been too stupid to simply turn off the holodeck before entering, but I think Otto and Deed can figure that one out easily enough. The controls are accessible from outside the field. If they need to, they'll hold off on leveling the base until they deactivate the field. Wouldn't take too long with the inside information Jail has.
How about implementing basic security measures to prevent Otto and Deed from just pushing OFF? Limited time doesn't only work against my security ideas, it works against the enemy's actions to disable them too.

And first I'm not supposed to let them be prescient, and now they'll know Jail has inside information and plan on that basis? And how much inside information would Jail have on RF6 anyway - the members are specially picked, and not allied to Jail's nominal buddies Regius & HC, so getting agent intelligence seems a bit thin.

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And a realistic simulation of run-down styrofoam-built building is? You're the one who insists Mid's building materials are crap, remember? It's supposed to be a simulation of reality, why should it be any harder to destroy than the real thing?
I didn't say it is. Remember that my concept is mostly to use the sheer size of the field to create effective concealment. I know Otto can blast through the stuff.

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You have to convince me it generates pseudomatter on a large scale first, I still don't buy it. Don't forget, Trek's holodeck uses forcefields to give the illusion of solidity and tractors to give the illusion of moving in large open spaces. The field can interact with the devices and there are spells to hold people. These can be combined to give the illusion of solidity and physical resistance. Take Erio slicing the bridge in Ep3. What if, instead of cutting pseudomatter with the consistency of concrete, Strada is held back by a restraint, to the same degree as if it was cutting through concrete? Remember, it's all about simulating reality.
Umm, and is there an advantage to doing all this instead of just pumping out a bit of pseudomatter? Remember that Erio was standing on the bridge, so you need something to support it. Yet Midchildran Spells to hold people generally don't allow free movement - they are binds.

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It would have never been enough, Jail could have poured in as many drones as neccessary to hasten the destruction of RF6's base. No matter what they did, they would still have been shown to go under in the same amount of time, and you would still say, "They should have done more"
But if I can't find anything for "more", I'll be forced to concede they did everything they could. In fact, at the end of such an exercise, my confidence in the TSAB would be boosted, wouldn't it?

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It seems she was back with the 108th that day, you may have noticed that she wasn't even with the Forwards the night before the conference. She was doing her duty like the rest of them. And it's not like they knew of Jail's interest in the Type-0s. So, how would they know they needed to protect Ginga and Subaru?
All they had to do was remember the basic advantage of concentration of force, or even buddy tactics. Even Mid has buddy tactics, darn it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Pardon me if I take this all with a grain of salt; you cannot dismiss the presumption of conflict of interest here. No one should be the judge of his own cause The fact that it's ark doing the calculations, and that ark has a vested interest in opposing keroko's arguments means that following the Test of Reasonableness there is implied bias here.
Good evening, Lawyer. Then what does one say about Keroko, who proposed this in the first place, then refused to fully substantiate his opinion?

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I also find it ironically hilarious that the "Math Professor of Nanoha" is admitting that math is not his strong point.
Acknowledging your own limitations is a primary requirement of intellectual honesty.

I wonder whether I could have avoided the below sh*tst*rm if I lied and said the result of the analysis shows that Subaru can punch through 10m of armor. Oh well, if I did this to be popular, I'll have lied already, so let's wade in...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Yeah, like assuming that the image was of Tea's highest altitude.
There's no evidence of higher.

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Or that Subaru straining a *bit* at the very beginning of her military training = Subaru straining at the beginning of strikerS with a high-quality device. Right.
If you can quantify the strength increase and justify it. Otherwise this is just unsubstantiated speculation.

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Or, of course, *assuming that the mangaka cared about such things*.
From the moment Keroko proposed this image, we both have to assume he did.

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and all of that is assuming you calc was correct, which i doubt.

Blah.
Wow, this approach does not even require the existence of specific complaints!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Yeah, seriously, Ark, give it up. The guys making this stuff don't break out protractors and calculators to ensure that it's all done exactly to "realistic scale". They do stuff that looks cool (they hope), even if it means breaking the ostensible physical laws of their world. Believing that you can take the end result, perform calculations upon it, and divine speeds and tension strengths and the like is mistaken to begin with.
If you threw a ball and hit me, does it matter you did not perform a full ballistic equation and only threw the ball in a cool stance? The result is, you hit me!

Further, if you believe that, at least for the details, the author's intent is no deeper than to look cool, then the pro-author's intent people can hardly use it as an excuse to override an observation - there is no intent.

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Frankly, it's a mockery of "suspension of disbelief".
Later.

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Admit for a little while that the conventions of the art form do not admit to the kind of rigorous analysis that you'd like to apply.
I'll admit that sometimes it does happen. But having already chosen to analyze this "art form" by participating in this thread, one should assume the data is analyzable, unless proven otherwise.

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If that means you can't come up with incontrovertible, definitive answers to certain technical questions, well, there you go. It's certain that you've put significantly more thought into the matter than the people who were working on the show. They might have access to a series bible, and it might have certain technical information (though almost certainly dealing with the various magic systems, and with an eye to keeping them visually consistent, not defining them in a technical sense.) But the sort of thing you're trying to take out of the visuals was never put into them in the first place!
Then how did Keroko conclude Teana was thrown up "dozens of meters".

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Frankly, if you need technical data to work a certain way for your story, then define it that way! People might argue with your interpretation some, but nobody's pretending that you've deviated from a canon set of rules that everyone has access to.
For such supposed tolerance to different solutions and approaches, my answer and approach is sure getting attacked very hard, even without substantive detected errors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Rick View Post
Come on, those details are pointless
For a bunch of supporters of this position, you guys sure are spending a lot of time on an technnical discussion thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagumo View Post
... Jeez people, remember the ANIME laws of physics.

http://www.comicscommunity.com/board...24019&expand=1

This is becoming completely ridiculous. The purpose of the anime is to enjoy it!
Yes, and there are a hundred ways to do so. Though I must wonder at the entertainment value of running into this thread just to say this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
*shrug* My take is simply that ark is SODing because Nanoha has a larger audience. He hasn't been pulling this with Strike Witches, which makes even less sense, because the Strike Witches fandom is very, very quiet.

Actually, when one looks at this, it's rather sad, really. Unable to enjoy anime because you're spending too much time analysing it.
I find it amazing you know better than me how I enjoy myself. Also, did I not mention that I watch other anime more or less normally?

As for why MGLN, I think b/w my critics here you guys have hit the big reasons. It is actually relatively organized and thus analyzable. It has a population (and a SoDer knows that bouncing ideas off others is important), with a substantial fraction interested in discussing the mechanics of their world. And my laziness got molten thanks to Ep16-17 (like a lot of other people's). So, why not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest Dynasty View Post
Ya know, I've never once paid attention to these arguments of how far, how fast, and how strong, because they never really needs to be justified. I could care less the exact km/h speed of which the characters fly because I don't see the point. While it is true that some level of realism is needed to keep things from getting absolutely ridiculous, using mathematical calculations based on visual data doesn't really work here. Pixels, frame rates, they are all poor examples of scaling. Hell, math exams use it all the time: "this graph is not to scale."
I see a lot of badly substantiated assertions here. As for your last point, please phone me when an anime actually admits it is crummily drawn by flashing "Characters and Scenes not to Scale"?

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I know what you may say. If it's not to scale, then why draw it like that? Because viewers would like to see it. If Nanoha really is flying supersonic speeds, it's going to be damn hard to see her fly by and catch all the details. Also, viewing angle and perspective can alter perception. That launch height data at first glance is rather silly to me, since the angle from which we view it IS NOT LEVEL.
If it is not level, then Teana suffers from foreshortening, as explained in my page. Thus the numbers reduce. I thought that had been made clear in the page. I really was trying to let you guys have everything that the selected scene can justify. I'm sorry it wasn't enough to give you a result you like.

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Suspension of Disbelief. What a phrase. It refers to the willingness of a person to accept as true the premises of a work of fiction, even if they are fantastic or impossible. It also refers to the willingness of the audience to overlook the limitations of a medium, so that these do not interfere with the acceptance of those premises. According to the theory, suspension of disbelief is a quid pro quo: the audience tacitly agrees to provisionally suspend their judgment in exchange for the promise of entertainment.
First, that looks suspiciously like Wikipedia and a bit modified. The observational SoD that I use will be written out almost the same, except they DO NOT necessarily suspend their judgment, and everywhere you see "premise", you put "observation."

Premises sound almost like a good idea until you remember how they are actually made. Since we can't read the author's brain (and in fact the author himself may have no firm thoughts about a particular matter), a premise as actually created is generally a mishmash of casual, subjective observation, guesses about author's intent, and personal prejudices and beliefs. Note that the only part that is actually from the show itself is observation, so observation is the father and superior to premise. Note also that a premise-SoDer has already used his judgment to create the premises, thus violating the injunction to suspend judgment!

Yet the literary act like this premise, which is really but a very subjective conclusion, is superior to observation. So how SoD is a "Premise SoDer" being?

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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Not even actually. Most of us at the Fanfic and Original Character Threads (FFT and OCT respectively) don't even give a damn about said rigorous calculations. What we aim for is consistency and believability, not precision, the latter which is what ark seems to be aiming for.
Consistency, with what? The anime, I presume.

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We go with believable, not realistic, because frankly how can you expect super realism in a series that has Magical in its title? Introduction of realism and justification in analysis only goes so far in a title where both aren't really high priorities in the presentation.
Please clearly differentiate the two in the SoD context.

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Animation does not lend itself to the rigorous calculations that it seems to have been given here because animation is such an imperfect medium for showing reality, due to differences in animation style, technique, budget, creation, etc..
Yet it is the data we have. So when we analyze, we use it for every last drop it is worth.
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Old 2008-12-16, 05:42   Link #1757
Avatar_notADV
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Ark, nobody's attacking your data because they're worried about the implications. We just don't care to see the same kind of analysis again and again. If I go out to shoot pool with my friends, we don't bust out a level and a slide rule in between every shot, we just shoot pool! (And I say this talking about engineers, mind you...)

I don't mind playing with speculation about Nanoha-stuffen. It's fun, there's room for a bunch of theories, and it can be nice to come up with "well, if they were thinking this, it would work!" solutions. But taking them seriously is a mistake that I've learned better than to make; if you analyze these shows too deeply, you end up disappointed with the results.

Why not in a non-mechanical context? Lots of people are buzzing about the idea that the prophecy of Carim's might not have referred to content in Strikers at all, but could be interpreted for "later than Strikers" stuff. (Kind of a classic trope, that.) I'd warn against over-parsing the lines, not just because they're fansubber lines (heh), but because even a professional translation isn't necessarily able to bring across subtleties... and nobody can help it if the Japanese were careless with their diction in the first place, especially if they wanted it to sound cool before worrying about possible sequel interpretations. ;p

So you're not ticking people off by being vocal, you're ticking people off because the results you're getting are absurd and nobody wants to play that game anymore.

You say "we've got to use the data we have." It is NOT DATA. It's not scientifically accurate. It's not a representation of reality from which you can take measurements. The animators take care to make sure that the characters look like they did in the previous scene and stay constant in relative size with each other, and frankly in Strikers they didn't even do a good job of THAT, right?
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Old 2008-12-16, 06:40   Link #1758
LoweGear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Consistency, with what? The anime, I presume.

Please clearly differentiate the two in the SoD context.

Yet it is the data we have. So when we analyze, we use it for every last drop it is worth.
1. Consistency with common sense using the premise of the storywork's setting as a base while still staying within the limits of suspension of disbelief. Consistency that doesn't have to be on the basis of a millimetric degree of precision to be useful.

2. Believability is simply being internally consistent enough that suspension of disbelief is more or less maintained, whereas realistic is to attempt to emulate non-fictional possibilities and events for use as story elements. You can try to be realistic and still be unbelievable, and vice versa. My own take on the terms btw.

3. It's only reliable data if the source itself is objective and experimentally verified to be consistent. And as has been proven in this thread again and again, animation itself is hardly an objective medium from which one can claim hard, precise data for an non-subjective analysis.
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Old 2008-12-16, 07:35   Link #1759
arkhangelsk
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This just has to go first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
So you're not ticking people off by being vocal, you're ticking people off because the results you're getting are absurd and nobody wants to play that game anymore.
My results (conclusions) are Absurd? Never mind how I got it for the moment, THIS I'll have to claim complete puzzlement over. OK, fine, the whole "Middie concrete" thing may have understandably offended some sensibilties, however mandated it is.

However, according to correlation, the latest blowup was due to this Subaru strength analysis. Never mind how I came to it, can you tell me which part of the conclusion offends people?

I showed that Subaru can produce KE similar to a HMG bullet, momentum similar to a long burst of them put together. Even the strength is superhuman. That's hardly low praise. So what part of it was absurd?

That a Cyborg (who still contains a fair bit of meaty parts after all) can't quite grind through steel according to the evidence given (and I already granted she might be able to punch through it?)

As for the rest, they are mostly distances and speeds of entirely imaginary magical rounds, so I can't see how you can conclude my results were "absurd".

There's the whole Jewel Seed thing ... but come on, that wasn't a matter of visual detail or whether they used a protractor or not. The contrast was quite stark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Ark, nobody's attacking your data because they're worried about the implications. We just don't care to see the same kind of analysis again and again. If I go out to shoot pool with my friends, we don't bust out a level and a slide rule in between every shot, we just shoot pool! (And I say this talking about engineers, mind you...)
This, at least, I can sympathize with. Frankly, I'll have gone on to other pursuits a long time ago, had it not been for the fact that lately, every time I comment on something, it stays at peace and any reasoned discussion tends to last only as long as Keroko doesn't discover it. After that, it inevitably disintegrates into him attacking Observational SoD, me defending, him throwing out a piece of evidence, me slicing it apart, him bawling about if only I didn't disregard this element or that element (of course, he doesn't even try to tell me that before I slice it), and somewhere around here it ends.

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I don't mind playing with speculation about Nanoha-stuffen. It's fun, there's room for a bunch of theories, and it can be nice to come up with "well, if they were thinking this, it would work!" solutions. But taking them seriously is a mistake that I've learned better than to make; if you analyze these shows too deeply, you end up disappointed with the results.
With respect, actually, this is not always true. Star Wars is actually one of those shows where you can analyze it, and it keeps getting better. Well, actually the Empire gets better, the New Republic tends to look worse, but still.

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Why not in a non-mechanical context? Lots of people are buzzing about the idea that the prophecy of Carim's might not have referred to content in Strikers at all, but could be interpreted for "later than Strikers" stuff. (Kind of a classic trope, that.) I'd warn against over-parsing the lines, not just because they're fansubber lines (heh), but because even a professional translation isn't necessarily able to bring across subtleties... and nobody can help it if the Japanese were careless with their diction in the first place, especially if they wanted it to sound cool before worrying about possible sequel interpretations. ;p
Well, not my particular bowl of soup, prophecies. But for a quick comment, you've forgotten to point out we are listening to a translation - Mid->Jap. I don't think this factor is going to change between literary and SoD methods.

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You say "we've got to use the data we have." It is NOT DATA. It's not scientifically accurate. It's not a representation of reality from which you can take measurements. The animators take care to make sure that the characters look like they did in the previous scene and stay constant in relative size with each other
Precisely. Despite not necessarily using protractors and rulers, good animators have a sense of perspective, so the placement of objects would be approximately correct, which is satisfactory since stadia work isn't THAT accurate anyway. It is data - if it is not we might as well close our eyes.

As for bloopers. Do they happen? Sure they do. But an analyst seeks to maximize his data pool. So he's not going to throw out a bathtub of water for a few mistakes.

If data cannot be used if it is not 100.00% accurate, the entire field of history would be dead. Which is why I didn't bother to answer those guys who demanded that visual data is 100.00% accurate before it is used.

Besides, for this particular issue, I don't think the base reliability of visuals are even at issue here. When Keroko proposed the scene for analysis, to prove his point, he automatically implies that the scene is can be assumed to be usable data. So the argument over this never even started. Same for any other fight where he proposes the scene and I cut it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
1. Consistency with common sense using the premise of the storywork's setting as a base while still staying within the limits of suspension of disbelief. Consistency that doesn't have to be on the basis of a millimetric degree of precision to be useful.
Despite common beliefs, it is impossible for stadia ranging of the TV screen to get to "millimetric" degree of precision. As for "premise", see what I had to say about it ... its father is really observation.

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2. Believability is simply being internally consistent enough that suspension of disbelief is more or less maintained,
Then why don't you just call that Internal Consistency?

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whereas realistic is to attempt to emulate non-fictional possibilities and events for use as story elements. You can try to be realistic and still be unbelievable, and vice versa. My own take on the terms btw.
Actually, all extrapolation comes from linking what is seen to "non-fictional possibilities" and events. I can agree you can be realistic and inconsistent, to some degree, though.

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3. It's only reliable data if the source itself is objective and experimentally verified to be consistent.
For objective ... one can certain say visual data is objective. 20 people can put the rulers on the same shot and come up with the same result. As for experimentally verified, now I don't see how that can be theoretically achieved.

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And as has been proven in this thread again and again, animation itself is hardly an objective medium from which one can claim hard, precise data for an non-subjective analysis.
Actually, the best you can do is suggest a possibility that it is inaccurate, without being able to suggest a single warning sign for the images actually being analyzed. However, you apparently cannot bring up alternative theories or interpretations. This is analogical to you attacking a historical analysis by saying that primary sources have been known to be wrong, without actually pointing out errors in the primary source (let alone section) that is being used.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-12-16 at 08:08.
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Old 2008-12-16, 09:27   Link #1760
Jimmy C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Normally, had they not busted the line enough people actually start auditing, that's fine.
You're the only one who's auditing. I'd say they did pretty well, otherwise I wouldn't be able to hold out against your arguments here for so long.

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During which others shoot. Teamwork.
"The others" have more rapid attack spells. They can keep shooting regardless.

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Wasn't she only a Sergeant? Anyway, a sergeant isn't what one thinks when he thinks "officer".
You're splitting hairs here, and I recall that Sargeants are "non-commissioned officers" aren't they? The point is, she's GF personnel, Arf at this time is "retired". Had she actually been a GF trooper, what makes you think she'd be assigned to a unit "near" RF6 anyway?

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So we are now trading off possible complexity on the limiter system for definite complexity on the familiar system.
I don't get how changing the energy allocation as stipulated on the contract from a percentage to an actual number is increasing complexity. I want to be clear that I mean the contract is in terms of "master supplies x units of energy to familiar" instead of "master supplies x% of her energy to familiar" all along. Therefore, changing the allocation just means setting a new number. And for the record, creating a familiar is complex, which is why mages rarely use it if there's a better alternative to getting what they want done.

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Sure, her adopted daughter gets kidnapped and Fate gets to face off two enemies that are more or less in her class. Uh... she doesn't need help? Are you sure?
Given how easily she swatted them once she got serious in ep24, yes.

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Why is it not the standard?
Like I said, few mages use limiters, fewer still have familiars. You want to insist that every high-ranking mage get a familiar whether they want to or not?

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I meant that allegorically.
With you it's sometimes hard to tell, given your insistence on exact numbers whenever possible. You seem certain that it's possible to distinguish the LC output to the familiar and that it's possible to wrap the limiter over everything but that output, I'm not convinced.

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Assemble them in a cluster, and run for the field in a group. This should make this convoy easier to cover
Unfortunately, it takes even longer to wait for everyone to assemble. Then, since everyone is moving at the same pace, the trip will take longer than everyone making for the field at their best speed. Worse, they'll all be bunched at the stairs now as they slowly make their way down. Then, do they wait until everyone's down and clustered again before going into the field? All that will take longer than the 10 minutes you said they lasted against Jail's forces.

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in fact, it might be less coverage than defending the building.
Except that, now that everyone is in the open, all the drones can concentrate their attacks to overwhelm Shamal, Zafira and VIce. Otto, Deed, Lutecia and Garyuu can join in the fun too.

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Remember that Otto and Deed didn't even come out until the defenders were heavily attrited.
Weren't you the one who said sound the evac when Otto and Deed show up? If they didn't show up until the attack was well underway, wouldn't it be too late to evac already? And just because we did see them earlier, doesn't mean they weren't there earlier to take advantage of just such a move.

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Get Shamal to cover them as they sprint for the field, and there's every chance everyone would get there in one piece.
Sprinting and assembling to head for the field are mutually exclusive. I showed what happens when everyone sprints for the field as best the can when the alarm sounds in the previous post. Then, I showed what happens when they choose to assemble first instead above.

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How about choosing a sim scenario without a "basement"?
Like I said, what if the "ground floor" of the building you're in is in reality a bit below the surface of the field? What happens when the field dies suddenly?

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The attack on the HQ occurred near simultaneously with the attack on the RF6 HQ. And of course GF HQ wasn't destroyed.
If that was what you were using as evidence for the duration of the attack, it doesn't say a thing about how long Shamal and Zafira lasted. Got anything better? Else I have to insist, we don't know how long they lasted against Jail's forces.

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They were swimming enough in funds to have the field.
Just because they got 50 million credits (for example) to build the field, doesn't mean they get an additional 200 mil to wrap a defensive fortress around it. The field occupies much more area than the base. Spending on all kinds of projects would increase dramatically if it were that easy to get extra funds. On the other hand, they might have an extra 10mil to build an armored shelter under their building. That does appear to be the case.

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How about implementing basic security measures to prevent Otto and Deed from just pushing OFF?
It's a training field, why would it need extra security for a simple OFF switch? That's like asking why Trek's holodeck doesn't have password protection or voice verification, etc, on its OFF switch.

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they'll know Jail has inside information and plan on that basis?
Who said anything about them knowing that Jail has inside info?

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And how much inside information would Jail have on RF6 anyway - the members are specially picked, and not allied to Jail's nominal buddies Regius & HC, so getting agent intelligence seems a bit thin.
I'm sure the plans for RF6's base and defense systems are filed away somewhere in the TSAB's bureaucracy. Unless there's some reason for it to be classified higher than the usual TSAB bases, it wouldn't be too hard for Jail's backers in the Bureau to get their hands on them and pass them to him.

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I didn't say it is.
Yes you did. Everyone else considers damage to the concrete to be for dramatic purposes. You're the only one who insists that it means Mid concrete is weak.

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Remember that my concept is mostly to use the sheer size of the field to create effective concealment.
Concealment that can instantly disappear at the push of a button or when the power's cut. And the entire field is a lot of ground to cover, where will Shamal and Zafira be defending? The whole place? That's larger than RF6's base proper, they'll probably fall even faster trying to hold such a large area. And if they only hold a small area within the field, it tell their enemies where everyone is.

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Umm, and is there an advantage to doing all this instead of just pumping out a bit of pseudomatter?
There's a HUGE difference better pumping out a bit of pseudomatter to make a BJ for a mage and "a bit" of pseudomatter enough to make a few city blocks. If the TSAB had that kind of technology, they don't need to make physical buildings anymore. Just get a piece of land, a generator and presto! A mansion, or a multistorey office block, or a stadium, anything you need, whenever you need it! RF6 could have used one to build its base and transform it into a fortress when it came under attack. In addition, any damage could be instantly repaired after the battle.

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Remember that Erio was standing on the bridge, so you need something to support it.
Trek uses forcefields, I don't see why the Bureau can't do the same. It'd be different from the usual combat forcefields but I'm sure they can manage.

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Yet Midchildran Spells to hold people generally don't allow free movement - they are binds.
Depends on where and how many binds you wrap on the person. Also, remember how Nanoha held Tia after she blasted her in ep9? Something similar but able to change its resistance to movement dynamically would be quite satisfactory for the purpose.
It may sound complicated, but it's more plausible than large-scale pseudomatter generation based on what's shown in the series.

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But if I can't find anything for "more", I'll be forced to concede they did everything they could.
So far, you're not convincing me that the "more" you propose are possible or will make enough of a difference to matter. Maybe the deployments at GFHQ can be tweaked some (and not to the point where it would deny Jail's objectives), but the one at RF6 was the best possible.

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All they had to do was remember the basic advantage of concentration of force, or even buddy tactics.
She was back with the 108th, get it through your head! Should they think she wouldn't have concentration of force or buddy tactics with her unit?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Which is why I didn't bother to answer those guys who demanded that visual data is 100.00% accurate before it is used.
Yet, the way you calculate all these power values, distances and concrete strengths, you act as if you're assuming the visual data is 100% accurate and usable. That seems to be the only way we can consider your numbers to be in any way accurate.
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