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Old 2008-12-15, 18:28   Link #301
Rainbowman
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This may be off topic, but did the SBS in volume 52 reveal the Devil Fruits of the Supernovas?
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Old 2008-12-15, 19:20   Link #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seiji_kun View Post
Thinking Crocodile will team up with Luffy cause he forgives minor incidents is naive.
Minor incidents? Bon Clay and Crocdile did the most out of any of Baroque Works to destroy Alabasta, which was Vivi's "dream"/"precious thing", and Luffy absolutely abhors when someone tries to destroy a friends dream (Luffy defeated Buggy originally because he was destroying the mayor's "dream" as well as the little dog's "dream"). So, I would not say that what Bon Clay did was minor at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seiji_kun View Post
All your examples don't even hold a candle to what Crocodile did personally to Luffy.
What did Crocodile do "personally" to Luffy that was so bad? Try and kill him? Destroy Luffy's dream? Which villain hasn't done these things? Bon Clay and Robin both worked for Crocidile (although Robin only partially worked for him), and both helped Crocodile fight against Alabasta and Luffy. So, if you are going to continue to extensively blame Crocodile, you will need to also spread some of the blame to his subordinates. He didn't almost destroy Alabasta by himself, he had ample help.


Quote:
Originally Posted by seiji_kun View Post
Tbh I don't find those examples all to valid, those three cases are hardly comparable except that they were all former enemies. Bon Clay had the advantage that he met Luffy & co before and that he saved The Going Merry from the marines and hardly did anything serious towards the strawhats himself. Thus it was easy to forgive him, since he didn't directly inflicted any harm to any strawhats if you don't find a mild beating of Usopp at least to offensive.
Let me put it this way then, I have provided several instances where Luffy has specifically forgiven previous enemies of their wrong-doing, can you provide any evidence of Luffy holding a grudge or a lack of desire to forgive someone?

Spoiler for A little long...:


You may argue that the level of "villainy" is different compared to Crocodile, but that seems to be splitting hairs more than anything else. Crocodile's mis-deeds are not that much worse than Bon Clay's or several other individuals that have been forgiven. And, if you add the fact that Crocodile has been serving time in jail, then his actions after the fight are comparable to Bon Clay's (specifically, both have had their karmic retribution: Bon Clay by saving Merry and being attacked by Marines, and Crocodile by serving time in a horrific prison without attempting to escape).

That being said, you have to realize, no one is saying that Crocodile will become a nakama, or in any way end up on the Thousand Sunny. Speculations concerning Crocodile are strictly confined to Impell Down. Afterwards, Crocodile would probably attempt to kill Luffy, but during the escape, every strong pirate will be needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seiji_kun View Post
Hachi, I don't see how you can disagree that he was forgiven cause he's just dumb.

If the victim calls him harmless herself (which imo is cause he's dumb) then I don't find this point debatable any further. And if Hachi was a former slave is a whole other dicussion, I personally have still my doubts since his tattoo wasn't on his back.
Um, doesn't this actually support my point. A person who was directly effected by another character eventually learns to accept what happen and "forgive" the former enemy. Hachi being stupid and hurting others is really not that far removed from Crocodile being intelligent and hurting others. Both intended to hurt others, but Crocodile simply understood better what he was doing.

I
Quote:
Originally Posted by seiji_kun View Post
t's not like I don't know that Luffy isn't a person to hold eternally a grudge but some villains are meant to stay villains. I don't think I'm beeing that narrowminded tbh, just beeing rational. I know everything is possible, heck who thougth Pell would survive, who thougth Hachi would reappear. But with this I just can't see it happen. Luffy won't pick his nose, he'll pass that cell say, like hell I'd come and save a guy like you! dumbass!!
While I fully admit this is a possibility, there are various other ways n which Crocodile could partially team up with Crocodile. For instance, Luffy could hit the "Release" Button, letting all the prisoners free, and a gigantic battle could ensue, in which Crocodile could be fighting Marines while Luffy is fighting marines. So, Crocodile need not directly meet up with Luffy in order to be "working" with Luffy in their escape.
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Old 2008-12-15, 19:50   Link #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
While I fully admit this is a possibility, there are various other ways n which Crocodile could partially team up with Crocodile. For instance, Luffy could hit the "Release" Button, letting all the prisoners free, and a gigantic battle could ensue, in which Crocodile could be fighting Marines while Luffy is fighting marines. So, Crocodile need not directly meet up with Luffy in order to be "working" with Luffy in their escape.
And this is the most likely scenario, as well as my favourite.
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Old 2008-12-15, 20:14   Link #304
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Will there be a chapter this week?
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Old 2008-12-15, 21:40   Link #305
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Originally Posted by JINBEI View Post
Will there be a chapter this week?
Yes. With colour pages as well .
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Old 2008-12-15, 22:02   Link #306
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Spoiler:


This took longer then I wanted.
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Last edited by seiji_kun; 2008-12-15 at 23:07. Reason: removed links in case of infraction
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Old 2008-12-15, 22:47   Link #307
james0246
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First of all, I have to say that you should probably take out the links/images you posted. This forum does not allow for full translated pages to be posted, so you could potentially receive an infraction for the images.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seiji_kun View Post
I don't want to compare a tool with a mastermind. One was simply obeying orders and doing something that he could only do => pretending to be Cobra.
If Bon Clay would actually be the one that came up with the plan and the strawhats would know of it then I'd understand more where you're comming from. And they were reasons to forgive him, he saved Merry (nakama). That's something that immediately played in his advantage, and the fact that he already knew them.
In a war crime trial, the grunt soldier is charged almost equally to their commander, so you can't significantly separate Bon Clay's subordinate villainy from his leader's villainy, because in the end, even if the leader is the one who ordered the death/destruction, it was still the subordinate who made the conscious decision to kill/destroy (and Bon Clay did "kill" many people). So, being overly concerned with just Crocodile and not his subordinates seems a little unfair to me, considering the fact that their actions are not that far removed from each other in the realm of villainy (specifically, it is disingenuous to over-emphasize Crocodiles actions, when several other characters have performed similar deeds only to be forgiven).

That being said, the relative ease in which Luffy and company "forgave" Bon Clay (and I always thought of them as easily forgiving Bon Clay, as well as several other characters), always indicated to me that Luffy and company do not hold lasting grudges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seiji_kun View Post
And though this is only my opinion, I never did found him giving off a real strawhat enemy aura. The way Oda made him actually meet up with the strawhats in advance and develop a friendship. Then how he only midely beat up Usopp since he got to Sanji with only a few bruises. And the way how Oda ended the Sanji - Bon Clay fight made it fairly obvious that Bon Clay was set up to become an ally. I'm not saying that I expected it back then, but when rereading it it all makes sense.
I do not disagree with this. And, the cover page mini-story certainly helped to cement Bon Clay's status as an "ally"/pseudo-good guy (at least to his friends). But, since we can use the mini-arc as a basis for discussion, Crocodile willingly choosing to stay in prison must be considered as a potential sign of pseudo-change (not necessarily redemption as the "Big Bad", but as a sign that Crocodile is somehow different, who know's how or why, but that he is different). (That being said, the cover page mini-stories are mostly "redemptive" storylines in which the previously seen villains find a way to partially redeem themselves. Consequently, I do view the former villains differently after their little mini-stories (except for Enel, he is still an ass ), and Crocodile did receive a potentially similar moment in the Baroque Works mini-story.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by seiji_kun View Post
While it's true that every villain winds up trying to kill him but since Crocodile actually three times allmost succeeded I think he's far more rememberable for Luffy then any other villain. Which villain can actually say, three times I thougth I had him! ? Hook through chest burried in the sand / dehydrated / poisoned.
Crocodile was Luffy's "Grand Line cherry", he represented the first of many subsequent characteristics in the One Piece universe. So, I completely agree that he is hard to compare to...well, almost anyone. He is not the most imposing figure now (after seeing the abilities of many of the other Shichibukai and Admirals), but he will always be the first .

Quote:
Originally Posted by seiji_kun View Post
Also the fact that he is the mastermind that was after killing one of his nakamas (I dont think you'll disagree when I call Vivi a nakama since Luffy views her as a nakama) and her dream I think he's one of the people that Luffy would least forgive. I mean I don't want to argue that Luffy easely forgives people but heck they were some villains that just can't be forgiven even bye Luffy.
This is actually what I am arguing (partially as a devil's advocate, but also because I partially hold this opinion). I see no real concrete evidence that Luffy would or would not forgive a major villain, but I do see a great deal of evidence supporting a claim that Luffy would at least forgive a minor to mid-level villain (sometimes without provocation (i.e. Bon Clay earned his forgiveness, but Foxy certainly did not, yet both were forgiven despite their previous misdeeds against the Strawhats)). So, I can only conclude that it is impossible to say for certain that Luffy would or would not forgive a major villain (In the end, the only reason I am arguing with you is because you are so vehement in regards to your stance. I could honestly care less about whether or not Crocodile and Luffy would team up, but for reasons I do not really agree with, you seriosuly do not view them as being able to even partially work together (which is fine, since it is your opinion...that I disagree with )). Consequently, I can allow for the possibility that Crocodile and Luffy would "team up" (either joining up or simply fighting at the same time), at least in Impell Down, for a short time.

Last edited by james0246; 2008-12-15 at 23:00.
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Old 2008-12-15, 22:51   Link #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtseisRagnarok View Post
Really?
With all his DF powers, do you think his poison hook is that important to him?
It was the thing that almost killed Luffy, so yeah I would say it's a rather fine weapon with many uses that go along with it.
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Old 2008-12-15, 23:28   Link #309
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It's easily replaceable. So i don't think Cro, if ever wants to set free, would roam the jail to find a hook. In fact, shouldn't the marine have just disposed of it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by seiji_kun View Post
And Ace could fight one day a side of Blackbeard... Some alliances aren't just meant to be happen. Nor does Crocodile have any reason to help Luffy, he didn't ran out of jail when he had the chance, why would he suddenly change opinion now?
The post was fast for last 12 hours, didn't have a chance to reply in time

Well, as i said: "If Crocodile still wants to rule the world." And he should be. We still don't know why he didn't get free when he has the chance, do we?
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Old 2008-12-16, 00:52   Link #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
First of all, I have to say that you should probably take out the links/images you posted. This forum does not allow for full translated pages to be posted, so you could potentially receive an infraction for the images.
Thanks for the tip

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246
In a war crime trial, the grunt soldier is charged almost equally to their commander, so you can't significantly separate Bon Clay's subordinate villainy from his leader's villainy, because in the end, even if the leader is the one who ordered the death/destruction, it was still the subordinate who made the conscious decision to kill/destroy (and Bon Clay did "kill" many people). So, being overly concerned with just Crocodile and not his subordinates seems a little unfair to me, considering the fact that their actions are not that far removed from each other in the realm of villainy (specifically, it is disingenuous to over-emphasize Crocodiles actions, when several other characters have performed similar deeds only to be forgiven).
At least Bon Clay has the excuse that if he wouldn't have done it Crocodile would've killed him. While it's a lame excuse it's still true just like it's true that he was fully concious of helping in ruining Alabastar for his personal gain.

Bon Clay is truly a special case and I'm not going to denie that I'm trying to minimalize Bon Clay's role since what he did had a lot of impact. And though I want to make the lame joke that no-one dies in OP it doesn't make it any less true even if they weren't any deads. He still had the intention to help Crocodile all the way. He even tried to kill Vivi personally. That's why I always find him so controversial or maybe he's just a man of extremes. One moment he's trying to kill Vivi the other moment he throws his own life away to help his friends escape. But it doesn't make it any less true either that he had one hell of an advantage to get forgiven, saving Merry from the marines wasn't a little thing imo.

He's even the person that I want to see reunite with Luffy the most in Impel Down. Could you imagine them meeting up since Luffy actually shed tears while parting with him for his heroic act. I can already imagine him saying "tomodachi". Though the strange thing is that I don't want him to meet up with Crocodile but they'll probably share a cell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246
That being said, the relative ease in which Luffy and company "forgave" Bon Clay (and I always thought of them as easily forgiving Bon Clay, as well as several other characters), always indicated to me that Luffy and company do not hold lasting grudges.
The strawhats don't strike me as a bunch to easely keep an everlasting grudge but I do think that some of them have some of those. Nami => Arlong, Vivi => Crocodile, Robin & Franky => Spandam, Brooke = Moria. The main reason I can't see him become an ally of Luffy is cause I can't imagine a nemesis of one of the strawhats as a temporary ally and Vivi does get considered to be a strawhat.

This is just my one-sided opinion and I was just curious why people think Croc has a chance of teaming up with Luffy and if it's cause so many allies get forgiven then point noted even if I don't agree with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246
I do not disagree with this. And, the cover page mini-story certainly helped to cement Bon Clay's status as an "ally"/pseudo-good guy (at least to his friends). But, since we can use the mini-arc as a basis for discussion, Crocodile willingly choosing to stay in prison must be considered as a potential sign of pseudo-change (not necessarily redemption as the "Big Bad", but as a sign that Crocodile is somehow different, who know's how or why, but that he is different). (That being said, the cover page mini-stories are mostly "redemptive" storylines in which the previously seen villains find a way to partially redeem themselves. Consequently, I do view the former villains differently after their little mini-stories (except for Enel, he is still an ass ), and Crocodile did receive a potentially similar moment in the Baroque Works mini-story.)
Ain't the general opinion that Crocodile lost his ambition and thus had no reason to escape? It's true that most of the mini-stories are redemptive storylines but since we had exceptions like Morgan, Enell, does Buggy count? I think Croc won't change all to much either since he striked me as one of the few true bad guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246
Crocodile was Luffy's "Grand Line cherry", he represented the first of many subsequent characteristics in the One Piece universe. So, I completely agree that he is hard to compare to...well, almost anyone. He is not the most imposing figure now (after seeing the abilities of many of the other Shichibukai and Admirals), but he will always be the first .
And till today till he's still my favorite villain, though Blackbeard soon will steal that title of him. Depending on how he'll act this war. If he deals the last strike to Whitebeard he'll really grow on me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246
This is actually what I am arguing (partially as a devil's advocate, but also because I partially hold this opinion). I see no real concrete evidence that Luffy would or would not forgive a major villain, but I do see a great deal of evidence supporting a claim that Luffy would at least forgive a minor to mid-level villain (sometimes without provocation (i.e. Bon Clay earned his forgiveness, but Foxy certainly did not, yet both were forgiven despite their previous misdeeds against the Strawhats)). So, I can only conclude that it is impossible to say for certain that Luffy would or would not forgive a major villain (In the end, the only reason I am arguing with you is because you are so vehement in regards to your stance. I could honestly care less about whether or not Crocodile and Luffy would team up, but for reasons I do not really agree with, you seriosuly do not view them as being able to even partially work together (which is fine, since it is your opinion...that I disagree with )). Consequently, I can allow for the possibility that Crocodile and Luffy would "team up" (either joining up or simply fighting at the same time), at least in Impell Down, for a short time.
While I'm fairly open minded to the opinion of everything is possible some things still have limits. Him teaming up with a former nemesis of a person that he considers a nakama is close to impossible imo. And if you think I'm vehement in my arguments I think you're just to sheltered... Your the ones calling someone vehement and narrow-minded. Since I'm not vehement at all I don't want to go down this path to much since we just disagree.

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Originally Posted by Cinocard View Post
Well, as i said: "If Crocodile still wants to rule the world." And he should be. We still don't know why he didn't get free when he has the chance, do we?
Actually they are several theories out there, the best one imo that he lost his ambition and just didn't care any more. That theory even supports that he could help out in Impel Down cause he could miraculously regain his ambition all of a sudden while Luffy tries to save his brother.
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Old 2008-12-16, 01:23   Link #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seiji_kun View Post
While I'm fairly open minded to the opinion of everything is possible some things still have limits. Him teaming up with a former nemesis of a person that he considers a nakama is close to impossible imo. And if you think I'm vehement in my arguments I think you're just to sheltered... Your the ones calling someone vehement and narrow-minded. Since I'm not vehement at all I don't want to go down this path to much since we just disagree.
I am "fine" with the rest of your post, but I felt I should clear this misconception before it "poisons the watering hole" of our little pseudo-debates. I have never called you narrow-minded (which more or less means bigoted/prejudiced), nor would I ever call someone I have never met narrow-minded (in fact, you were the first to use the word narrow-minded ). Instead, I called your opinion concerning the matter at hand short-sighted (which means the act of not taking possible developments into account). There is a vast difference between the two, and I hope you realize that I am not attempting to attack you in any way.

Secondly, the word vehement merely means a forceful or intense expression. So, saying that you have a vehement stance concerning this issue is not a lie (since you strongly stand by your opinion and do not accept my possible scenarios of Crocodile and Luffy potentially working together, I would say you have a fairly vehement stance concerning the issue at hand), nor is it an attack (though if you think that I am exaggerating your stance, please clarify the matter for me). In the end, neither word that I used was particularly negative in its definition or intent, but since you seem to have reacted badly to the use of said words, I apologise.

I am sorry to divert attention for this issue, but I felt it was better to clear the air before any resent starts to form and starts to cloud our judgment regarding each other's opinions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seiji_kun View Post
And till today till he's still my favorite villain, though Blackbeard soon will steal that title of him. Depending on how he'll act this war. If he deals the last strike to Whitebeard he'll really grow on me.
I really like One Piece's villains. The sheer arrogance of Enel, the viciousness of Lucci, the laziness and secret history of Moria, and, of course, the original Big Bad - Crocodile (who was deliciously "evil" in the intent and execution of his plans). Blackbeard's growing on me, but I really want to see what DoFlamingo has up his feathery sleeves .
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Old 2008-12-16, 04:19   Link #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I am "fine" with the rest of your post, but I felt I should clear this misconception before it "poisons the watering hole" of our little pseudo-debates. I have never called you narrow-minded (which more or less means bigoted/prejudiced), nor would I ever call someone I have never met narrow-minded (in fact, you were the first to use the word narrow-minded ). Instead, I called your opinion concerning the matter at hand short-sighted (which means the act of not taking possible developments into account). There is a vast difference between the two, and I hope you realize that I am not attempting to attack you in any way.

Secondly, the word vehement merely means a forceful or intense expression. So, saying that you have a vehement stance concerning this issue is not a lie (since you strongly stand by your opinion and do not accept my possible scenarios of Crocodile and Luffy potentially working together, I would say you have a fairly vehement stance concerning the issue at hand), nor is it an attack (though if you think that I am exaggerating your stance, please clarify the matter for me). In the end, neither word that I used was particularly negative in its definition or intent, but since you seem to have reacted badly to the use of said words, I apologise.

I am sorry to divert attention for this issue, but I felt it was better to clear the air before any resent starts to form and starts to cloud our judgment regarding each other's opinions.
I did mix up short-sighted with narrow-minded. And I thougth you meant vehement in a "characterized by rancor or anger; violent" way that I was getting offensive which I was trying to avoid while I do thougth that I had maybe raised that impression. It wouldn't be the first time that I'm accused of such behavior while I don't have that intent particularly. Since I misunderstood in both cases I do apologize.

And you're not wrong when you got the impression that I stand strong bye my own opinion. While I do think that I'm rather open minded, I only get convinced bye solid arguments or else I give priority to my own impressions. I guess at times it could come over as arrogant but I rather think it as strong-willed :P . It only makes it more funny when I'm wrong.

I'm the first one to laugh with myself to, hell I even got prooven wrong this week cause I said on an other forum before that there was no chance in Konohamaru beating that one body of Pain. I'm so hoping in him to stand up and leave with the rest of the Pains. I know mangakas and there mangas are inconceivable but don't we all like to think that we understand our favorite chars.



Now something about OP, I hope we see Boa in color or is it only one colorspread of all the strawhats? It would be interesting to find out her hair color! And Luffy will help Boa bye using gomu gomu no flat and cover Boa her tattoo. Also I can't wait to see that marine that'll inspect Boa, I thougth that female marine was wearing quite a sexy outfit. The marines do have taste in clothing.
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Old 2008-12-16, 04:38   Link #313
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Originally Posted by seiji_kun View Post
Now something about OP, I hope we see Boa in color or is it only one colorspread of all the strawhats? It would be interesting to find out her hair color! And Luffy will help Boa bye using gomu gomu no flat and cover Boa her tattoo. Also I can't wait to see that marine that'll inspect Boa, I thougth that female marine was wearing quite a sexy outfit. The marines do have taste in clothing.
We should receive a new chapter thread sometime later today, so I will only say this: Boa in colour . No wonder Oda took off a week. He wanted to get her just right .

(I agree about the Impell Down outfits. Both the men's and the women's are quite interesting, and the women's uniform is quite sexy...)
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