Claymore Chapter 86

[astrallionheart]

Originally Posted by Awakened

Raki has already defeated Priscilla for Clare. They just need to MEAT UP, so Clare can start crying. Raki will finally get the chance to repay Clare for all the time Clare had to wipe his tears.

Oh dear.

Priscilla + Raki + Clare sandwich.

[Mangaloid]

I'm no "Chef" but I don't think that sandwich would workout to well.

[astrallionheart]

Are you kidding me? I would kill a hundred puppies to be in that sandwich.

[Supermutant]

I also don't as if Clare fighting Priscilla would be the climactic showdown for the series. At least not exactly.

It's hard to imagine Priscilla and Raki not meeting up with Clare within the year or two at worst, (I guess something big could come up) and I don't think we're anywhere near resolving anything else before that happens.

Even still, Priscilla hasn't been showcased as a villain for a long time, and I think most would agree that the real monsters are the organization; although admittedly this group has no outward face to be destroyed yet.

There's so many different potentially huge threats that I don't think there's any clear standing on who will have to be destroyed by the end and who would be the last to fall.


To a lessor extent, that's true of the ghosts. Miria is still clearly the leader (and possibly still strongest) for a couple of reasons, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she'll be a second protagonist. Though as far as the reader is concerned, her continued presence and relevance to the story may make that kind of determination irrelevant anyway.

I think however it's a definitely a strong possibility that it's not going to be left to Clare to have all the climactic showdowns with the organization, claymores, abyssal beings, demons/dragon, whomever. The story is becoming more an ensemble story despite Clare being the star.

It's an open question if the ending will turn out to be bitter sweet with lots of deaths, or if everyone could make it. I think it could go either way. I'd think that only Clare is guaranteed to make it to the end. (Though I guess there's always a possibility for a curveball tragic ending where Clare dies just before the final moment rather than after)



I don't think Clarice is sitting on some kind of hidden power beyond that which usually come to people in desperate situations. I think she's stronger than she knows being the underdog and all... I guess she could have some kind of hidden power though. Since she's been shown to be abnormal it's a possibility her power wouldn't be conventional.

[FateAnomaly]

Clarice power is that all lolis will instantly regard her as their mother. :P

[KillerYomaFromSpace]

Originally Posted by Youtuber

She was alive but not in the org. Ophelia was in her prime before Miria and Ophelia's brother was killed by Priscilla.

Ophelia's case could be like Priscila's, where she already entered as a single digit, there is no real reason to think that Ophelia entered the org before Miria

[shschesschamp]

How bout priscilla dies and Priscillas flesh goes into Raki, and he becomes a hybrid like Clare. Raki would be ubber, he's already pretty elite as a human.

[khryoleoz]

Originally Posted by KillerYomaFromSpace

That would be great, but I doubt it, Miria is superior now, but then there is Deneve's comment about Clare's shonen drive, and then there is Teresa's flesh and all that stuf that made clear since the beginning that she will be the most powerful, that's my prediction and I really hope I'm wrong with it.

And I hope that you're right. What's the point of this journey if we don't see it through with Clare. Clare is not my favorite character, but she is the one most worthy of sympathy and support with respect to the attention given to the character.

Originally Posted by KillerYomaFromSpace

For some reason Miria said she felt that Clare was the strongest (something no one else had done yet) and as far as we know, Miria is not a sensor type, and even good sensors wouldn't be good for that.

But all warriors are sensor types. Only, on occasion you get those who are far better than the rest.

Originally Posted by KillerYomaFromSpace

I'm guessing that after the first time she met Clare and reported her behavior to the org, she decided to investigate and found out that Clare has Teresa's flesh, so she wanted to test her the second time, then she probably lied about perceiving Clare as the strongest when what really happened was that she knew that Clare had the flesh of the strongest.

Even the trainees knew about Teresa and Clare having her flesh, so it wasn't a big secret, and Miria was a claymore before Clare, so the legend would be more fresh, as Teresa was still alive when Miria joined the org (can't say how much tho). She also know about awakened beings from previous generations like Rigardo (knowing something as obscure as that, I would be surprised if she didn't know already about Teresa's flesh in Clare).

Not that any of what you say is implausible, but it is not necessary to think in those terms, and there are more probable alternatives.

1) All the trainees that had been privy to Clare's origin had been wiped out.
2) Unless the org maintains a library full of books of records that keep account of their activities, and warriors can borrow those books at their leisure, any information that can be gathered must be given directly by the administrators of the org at their mercy and discretion. And MIB class people simply have no such obligation to grant any warrior such access.
3) Miria is informed to the degree that she is by having an informant, one who has an agenda, and towards that end supplied information to Miria when doing so meant he can manipulate her and achieve a tangential or corresponding objective according to what he can predict she was inclined to do with that info. In terms of Miria's grander scheme, there's no direct correlation to that and divulging Clare's origins.
4) The nature of the story's revelations being progressive, until we find evidence that supports what you suggest, it is best to believe that Miria's reaction to Clare upon their first meeting had been authentic and sincere. Miria may not have had Galatea's range, but as all warriors are sensors, there was no illusion to what she sensed of Clare that day. And it is inevitable that Clare proves it at her eradication of Priss, Isley, Raciela, the Demon(s), or what have you.

Originally Posted by KillerYomaFromSpace

The thing is that Miria is struggling very hard just to keep Clare by her side, and for some reason she thinks that both of them are enough to complete their mission.

but how does this relate to the original point?, well, my guess is that Miria is expecting something from Clare, directly related with her half-Teresa nature, and It'll most probably mean that Clare will be the strongest (I hope not). My unrealistic wish would be that Clare awakened and then was completely replaced by Teresa in the process =P

Awakening to Teresa would be funny. While I can and would appreciate that very much in one sense, I'm ready for closure and am simply, patiently waiting for Teresa's vindication under/through/by Clare.

Ever since scene 18, there had been so much insults thrown around, casting doubt about Teresa's rightful place in the world. You know, all of that BS starting with Priscilla surpassing Teresa and Alicia being the strongest in their annals. Then the very object that inherited Teresa's legacy gets bad mouthed by an ignorant pair, her face pummeled to the ground like every other page, Miria presumably having been through much worse and therefore becoming that much stronger, it's enough to make one sick.

[Cyclone]

Originally Posted by khryoleoz

Ever since scene 18, there had been so much insults thrown around, casting doubt about Teresa's rightful place in the world. You know, all of that BS starting with Priscilla surpassing Teresa and Alicia being the strongest in their annals. Then the very object that inherited Teresa's legacy gets bad mouthed by an ignorant pair, her face pummeled to the ground like every other page, Miria presumably having been through much worse and therefore becoming that much stronger, it's enough to make one sick.

There there. That is why it's up to us, the Army of Teresa, to educate the ignorant masses. It's probably counter productive to tell them, however truthfully, that they are blind bats who couldn't recognize greatness if it danced naked on their faces. Patience is sometimes required when dealing with those less capable of understanding simple and obvious facts.

[khryoleoz]

Originally Posted by Flar

Common knowledge? It's common speculation based on usual manga tropes, where the hero always, always is the superior fighter in the end, and on Teresa unchecked fanboyism, that's all.

Clare has partially awakened more than Miria, and got spare parts. Give Miria Teresa's left arm and make her return from awakening and she could pull ahead again, probably.

Three (four) times now has Yagi put the spotlight on how Clare and Miria stood out, each time showing them as having roughly equal strength, used or perceived: Priscilla seeing lights in Pieta, Miria testing Clare in the North, Miata sensing them, and then Deneve and Helen discussing it. It would be a bit aberrant to me if only Clare was to outgrow the rest. These are hints about future power, and usually reserved for the hero. That it's not "there is a strong one hidden among them" or "all seven are super strong" makes me think that the ones making the observation feel the potential/hidden difference of strength, only two of the ghost qualify.

What would be so vexing about Clare outgrowing everyone else? And how would that be different from normal plotting of common boy-comics themes? Where we may expect two characters, even if they be friends, who rival each other in power to remain as close as they can be, at some point one or the other gets the edge eventually and they are separated from then on.

I think there's something else worth looking at. There seems to be a pattern with Clare's power ups, where each time she does someone else loses her life for it. It started with Teresa, then with Raki (who was spared by plot device), then Irene, then Jean. I think what we should prepare for is a probability that Miria will bet it all on Clare who will take upon herself the sum of Miria's hopes, and towards achieving their common end Miria would voluntarily give her own life in order to put capital into Clare's success.

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by Flar

Clare has partially awakened more than Miria, and got spare parts. Give Miria Teresa's left arm and make her return from awakening and she could pull ahead again, probably. (...)

Probably not. I don't think that anyone except Clare could handle Teresa's massive strength. To use her arm one would need not only to be compatible but also strong enough. I think you're overestimating Miria and underestimating Teresa. Anyway, Miria is totally different than Clare who's 1/4 youma so it may be the reason why Clare could handle her partial awakenings so well.

I don't agree with you that Yagi has showed us Miria and Clare being roughly of equal strength. If anything he showed that Clare is the strongest of the seven. In the slashers arc Clare appeared to Miria as the strongest. In Pieta Clare was the one that didn't have any injuries till the last moment we've seen her, while Miria was covered in blood, breathing heavily. Well, Clare breathed heavily too but it didn't prevent her from using her youki and no matter how stupid it may seem, in Miria's case Yagi used three big panels to show her exhaustion and for Clare only one small (maybe I'm jumping to conclusions but what better way to show it in a manga).

As for their second duel, Clare was testing Miria at first. She gradually quickened her pace and it was Miria that decided to stop (in my personal opinion it was because she was afraid Clare might become too serious). Also Clare was at disadvantage from the start, they were fighting in the open where Miria could use her abilities to the fullest and at the same time Clare would have most trouble. If it was in confined space the fight would be one-sided. Not to mention even the ground in this snowy and icy area was conveniently rough so that Miria could make moves such as „_]” and instantly go behind Clare without falling to the ground because of overpowering force of static friction.

And about Miata sensing them, she stated only that 2 of the ghosts were much stronger than the rest but she doesn't imply that both of them are equally strong. We don't even know if Clare's scent wouldn't change if she partially awakened again or if she released some of her youki.
To me, Clare outgrowing the rest is a fact even now and it's a good thing too.


@KillerYomaFromSpace
Miria superior? Not a chance. I don't understand what's wrong with Clare being the strongest, she deserves it, she's very interesting character, much more interesting than Miria IMO. Also I don't understand why would you assume that Miria would lie to Clare that she felt as if she was the strongest?

[Flar]

Originally Posted by khryoleoz

What would be so vexing about Clare outgrowing everyone else? And how would that be different from normal plotting of common boy-comics themes? Where we may expect two characters, even if they be friends, who rival each other in power to remain as close as they can be, at some point one or the other gets the edge eventually and they are separated from then on.

Nothing vexing, but it just seems to me that Yagi is developing his story based on two superpowers among the Ghosts. It's not so much that I want it, but more that I think it will happen given the clues given so far. I don't really care either way.

Of course, after that it's a matter of interpretation, I can see, as Gooral shows, that not everyone would consider those Miria/Clare juxtaposition in the same light as I do

I think there's something else worth looking at. There seems to be a pattern with Clare's power ups, where each time she does someone else loses her life for it. It started with Teresa, then with Raki (who was spared by plot device), then Irene, then Jean. I think what we should prepare for is a probability that Miria will bet it all on Clare who will take upon herself the sum of Miria's hopes, and towards achieving their common end Miria would voluntarily give her own life in order to put capital into Clare's success.

Each time anyone in a fiction does anything, it by plot device...

Anyway, Miria never struck me to be as close to Clare as the former dead Claymores were, and the story changed from Clare+sidekick to Clare among other people. I think the dynamic between Clare and Miria is different for these reasons and as such there is no "preparation" for Miria to become the next powerup excuse for Clare, unlike with people such as Flora or Raki. Even now, I think that the one with the best "potential" in death is still Raki.

[Sleepy Speculator]

Why does everyone post whilst i'm asleep? damn timezones.

I do agree with you at least on one thing again Gooral and that is, that Clare may be the only half awakened that can actually partially awaken and get away with it, certainly the only 'offensive' one willing and able to do it. Since Miria's one was shown in the presence of Ophelia, and Helen said she got carried away (with a bit of a red face as well).

With regards to what Miata senses however, when she met Clarice she could sense her yoki, but with the ghosts can only measure them with her sixth sense.

Now this is where it gets convuluted, Clare *had* a weak yoki signature but access to another pool of yoki which is evident when she overused her yoki, either by half awakening or by overusing too much in general. This is Clare's 'potential' which she has inherited.

Miria - "it felt as if the strongest was standing before me" - Miria isn't a sensor type but she actually sensed something, so probably yoki related.

Renee - "deep within it's consciousness, yes even deeper than that...what i found after diving so deep was a condensed youki" - whilst this is about Raciella, it indicates that the otherwise non yoki radiating freakish coffee table actually has a vast amount of youki, and that the sensing type Renee couldn't even tell until she went looking for it.

So if Clare is carrying a portion of Teresa it wouldn't be surprising to find that this is 'potential' but buried yoki. Now onto Clarice...

Clarice's only chance for her yoki to be measured would be if a sensing type read her signature, which leads to the confusing moment where Galatea who is blind doesn't seem to know what's going on
- either her yoki changed so significantly that Galatea didn't recognise it as her, which caused her to question 'colored hair?' or
- her yoki signature completely disappeared, during an increase in performance that in any other claymore would have them radiating like a beacon.

I of course believe she somehow managed the second, but it still implies for Clarice a vast and unexplained improvement. What better explanation than the precedent set by Clare?
Clarice after all believes what she was told and that she was 'special' the only other time i've seen that word in Claymore was with regards to Clare who had the designation 'special soldier' in training.

The only other claymore close enough to Clarice to tell has been Miata who went from attacking her at first sight to believing she's her mama. And whilst she's been saving Clarice constantly she also seems to not think that her 'mama' would get pulped by Agatha saying 'don't run away mama' (yes i know she's an unstable little kid, but she don't seem to think that mama would actualy get killed, to the extent that she actually seems confused when Clarice does run)

As to the why didn't she say anything about Clarice saying the more powerful comment, Miata didn't have much chance as she was busy apologising for getting wounded.

If Miata was more verbose it would help, but she doesn't really say much...

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by khryoleoz

Ever since scene 18, there had been so much insults thrown around, casting doubt about Teresa's rightful place in the world. You know, all of that BS starting with Priscilla surpassing Teresa and Alicia being the strongest in their annals. Then the very object that inherited Teresa's legacy gets bad mouthed by an ignorant pair, her face pummeled to the ground like every other page, Miria presumably having been through much worse and therefore becoming that much stronger, it's enough to make one sick.

There were never much doubt on Teresa's position as the strongest warrior ever. The BS is not about Priscilla surpassing Teresa or Alicia being the strongest but rather about putting Teresa ten millions miles above everyone else.

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by Sleepy Speculator

(...) she also seems to not think that her 'mama' would get pulped by Agatha saying 'don't run away mama' (yes i know she's an unstable little kid, but she don't seem to think that mama would actualy get killed, to the extent that she actually seems confused when Clarice does run) (...)

Correction, Miata said "Run away... Don't die, mama". Both shrimpy and gernot (jp->en translators residing at mangahelpers) admitted that and 10sigh wrote he's not sure and made second version of page 16 where Miata says "run away". At least I think it's been decided that's correct translation. Maybe someone could clear this once and for all.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=405

Originally Posted by 10sigh

I thought about this but then Clarice's "I'm sorry, I can't do this" reaction didn't make sense to me anymore. I would have expected some guilt filled "thank you" or "I won't forget this" or whatever. She was already running when Miata said that stuff anyways, Miata's outstretchted hand looks more like a "stay here" gesture to me just like her post-"I can't do this"-face looks more disappointed to me... And yeah, no "die" kanji... plus I've actually seen typos in raws before... And ”逃げてしないで”gives me around 10000 results on Google. "Natural" enough in my humble opinion.
Damn Japanese with its endless similar sounding words, damn Yagi with his ambiguous facial expressions and dramatization...
Well, replace page at your own judgement. ;>_>　

[Fenrir_valindri]

I actually believe that was a mistranslation tbh, I was looking at the RAW around the time when the chapter came out and I'm pretty sure that it says "Run Away" instead of "Don't Run Away" implying that Miata was holding Agatha off so Clarice could escape. Which also makes sense considering the context of the situation.

[Sleepy Speculator]

ah another mistranslation, cheers for the correction i can't read japanese or chinese so i have to rely on translations, but still, why would Clarice then say "i'm sorry i can't" whilst actually legging it, *if* she's being asked to run away anyway. And Miata was pinned at the time, meaning she can't do much 'holding off', it's like saying i got everything under control whilst on fire and being eaten by an asbestos tiger.

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by Sleepy Speculator

ah another mistranslation, cheers for the correction i can't read japanese or chinese so i have to rely on translations, but still, why would Clarice then say "i'm sorry i can't" whilst actually legging it, *if* she's being asked to run away anyway. And Miata was pinned at the time, meaning she can't do much 'holding off', it's like saying i got everything under control whilst on fire and being eaten by an asbestos tiger.

And why would Agatha say: "How valiant" towards Miata if it was "don't run away", there would be nothing courageous if Miata said that, rather the opposite. And after saying "I'm sorry, I can't/I just can't do this" she really ran, so I think that "run away" makes more sense.

Edit: Just to be clear, by saying "I just can't do this" Clarice wasn't talking to Miata but to herself, meaning she can't do anything against Agatha so she ran.

[Sleepy Speculator]

The problem is the ambiguity from that statement remains...

path 1.
Miata... don't run mama
Agatha... courageaous/valiant aren't we?
Clarice... i'm sorry miata , i can't
<runs away>
Agatha... <laughs> she's actually running away

path 2.
Miata... run away mama
Agatha... courageaous/valiant aren't we?
Clarice... i'm sorry miata , i can't
<runs away>
Agatha... <laughs> she's actually running away

in path 1. Clarice's statement makes sense in that she just can't fight Agatha #2 and hope to win, and Agatha's courageaous statement is not invalidated as it implies that Miata's will to fight even with regards to Clarice is courageaous/valiant.

in path 2. Clarice's statement makes sense in that she won't run away and abandon Miata, and Agatha's laughter is just because Clarice says one thing whilst doing the complete opposite, and actually legging it.

[astrallionheart]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

There were never much doubt on Teresa's position as the strongest warrior ever. The BS is not about Priscilla surpassing Teresa or Alicia being the strongest but rather about putting Teresa ten millions miles above everyone else.

All I know is Teresa owned a maxed-out Priscilla while using 10% of her yoma power and looking quite bored in the process.

Imagine if Teresa's heart had never been compromised by weakness. She wouldn't have given pause to crushing Prissy instead of standing around defenseless without her sword thinking she could help Priscilla like she had helped Clare.

Almost as fast as the fastest Claymore, almost as strong as the strongest, her sword fighting close to Quicksword level, enough stamina to not even pull a sweat even though a team of #2-5 were already exhausted trying to fight her...as close to a perfect warrior as you can get.