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Old 2008-12-17, 19:21   Link #21
bladeofdarkness
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C.C is a part of every aspact of his life
but at the same time she isnt really a part of it
she is part of his "geass related" life (mao,V.V and the cult)
but she hides everything from him
she's a part of his life in ashford (in season 1)
but she is not in his group of friends
she is part of his ZERO life
but she has no position in the OOBK (she is there, but no one knows as what exactly)
and she always talks about how they are "partners in crime"
and yet she doesnt actually have ANYTHING to fight for of her own (till ZERO-R)

its hard to discribe their relationship in any real way when it comes down to it
aside from the word "partner" there is no other word that discribes what she is to him effectively
friend,mentor,follower,leader,lover,confidant,fami ly,enabler
she is in some way all of those things
but when trying to actually CALL HER any of those things is problematic
she doesnt belong in any of the groups he related to

its very hard to discribe in words what i am trying to say becouse i am actually not sure if even i understand it completely (so dont kill me please)
but i think that C,C was NOT an actual PART of his life (as in her presence cant be defined in what she IS to him)
in some cases she's his only support
and in some cases she's just an observer

i think thats why he couldnt actually name what she is when she almost died in 15as people we tend to define ourselves and others by the things that are part of our lives
we are students, soldiers, workers
we are CluClu,kalulu and so on
we are americans, british,etc
and all of these things combine to form our impression of "who i am"
and we think of other people in the same way
this is my friend,co-worker,schoolmate, boyfriend,girlfriend,etc
C.C belonging in EVERY ASPECT of his life and at the same time not actually being a part of any of them makes her hard to discribe as anything other then his equal partner

i think its also why none of his "frozen" flashbacks involved her despite the fact that she is probably the closest person to him in many ways
she is not a PART of his life in the same way that HE isnt

i hope i am actually making sense here (its 2 am)
its a theory i have had for a while now about their relationship
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Old 2008-12-17, 19:26   Link #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akakishi View Post

About Kallen, she's
Spoiler for kalulu:

Interesting. Care to back up your claims with...say...selected facts?

Back to the topic...I've been lurking in the Gundam forum and found their romance thread very amusing...

SetsunaXLelouch anyone? I really like their "historic" encounter in the CGX00 event...



EDIT: Hmm, as for C.C.. I do agree, she is both attached and detached to every aspect of Lelouch's life during the series.
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Old 2008-12-17, 19:52   Link #23
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A relationship{whatever form} that is being consisted between a mortal and an immortal is by default a unique one, given the circumstances. Though, a lot of CCxL moments, were quite normal. Still, it is really hard to define their relationship.

While KallenxLelouch is more like..physical attraction = chemical reaction. And whatever comes after it i guess. "^^ {or whatever could come after it}
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Old 2008-12-17, 20:03   Link #24
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post


While KallenxLelouch is more like..physical attraction = chemical reaction. And whatever comes after it i guess. "^^ {or whatever could come after it}
Nothing. We all know that the First Cause is against them. Speaking of interruptions...Clamp's Wish is a loose example....
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Old 2008-12-17, 20:08   Link #25
bladeofdarkness
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i doubt its only physical
suzaku and euphie took 20 eps to actually figure out their feelings for one another
but during those 20 eps they were both fighting to achive their view of the world and their ideals
its the fact that they both had the same mind frame that allowed them to get past seeing each other mearly as "kindred spirits and to actually develop feelings for one another
lelouch and kallen have been actively fighting for the same set of ideals (even if not goal) for a rather long time
and kallen did show interest in lelouch in season 1 and was then annoyed by him seemingly lacking in terms of ideals (ep 9)
since kallen is not euphie and (even more clearly) lelouch is not suzaku
both of them have been danceing around the whole "ideals" thngs for much longer
but the comparision between the two (euphie and kallen) was even made in season 1 when both ended up on the island with the the "other guy"
and kallen had been shown "falling for him" long before seeing his face
suzaku and euphie were draw together by their shared ideals
i think the same appelys to kallen and lelouch (especially after ep 7)
becouse unlike the rest of the OOBK kallen knew who lelouch was and what he was fighitng for
her choice to fight beside him after knowing that ment that they actually became partners in a way as well (the novels call it doushi)
they did have shared ideals and its that which actauly drew them closer
the physical part was only part of it
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Old 2008-12-17, 20:08   Link #26
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Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody View Post
Nothing. We all know that the First Cause is against them. Speaking of interruptions...Clamp's Wish is a loose example....

I meant the "whatever could come after it" more of like, that there might have been a fat chance for both of them if ZR has not been planned, but i get your point as well.

ETA: @blade: It always starts as physical, that was my point. Do not nitpick in only a "word" when it is explained after that word better. It was more of an expression and i never said it was only THAT part.
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Old 2008-12-17, 20:17   Link #27
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SPOILERS, lots of 'em.

If only Kallen could have waited a couple more minutes before barging in during episode 24, all these questions might have been answered.

My take on Lelouch's romance:

Kallen loved only part of Lelouch. She was split between his two masks, and I think even she didn't know which one she preferred. I believe her opinion was that the perfect Lelouch would have been a few traits from both sides, but I think she also realized how that was impossible. As for what Lelouch thought of her... It's hard to say. I honestly don't think he romantically loved her. I think he cared for her more than most other people close to him (remember his reaction of her being captured), but I think his care for her was more in a friendly love kind of way. I think if he romantically loved her, he would have kissed her back when she kissed him.

Shirley was completely in love with him, no doubt about it. As she says herself, even after completely losing her memories of him, she falls in love with him yet again. I also think he was in love with her, but only fully realized it when it was too late. In the first season when he canceled her memories, I don't believe he had realized that he was in love with her. He only saw that she was truly a good person, and wanted to protect her. But when she died, I think he realized how he actually did love her, but by that time it was of course too late.

Then we come to the really confusing one: CC. CC was clearly very happy that she finally found someone who really cared for her, but I'm not sure it was love or not. CC constantly reminded Lelouch that the only reason she was protecting him was so that he could fulfill her wish. However, she goes much farther than just protecting him. She comforts him when he is depressed on a few occasions often helps him with Black Knight business (going as far as piloting the Gawain for him, and crushing herself underwater). The real question is which of her wishes she really wanted Lelouch to fulfill. Lelouch discovered that her true wish (geass) was to be loved, but she told him her wish was to die. In their contract, she only tells him that she wants him to fulfill her wish, not specifying which one. I personally believe that her original contract was to die, but after her 'moe' incident I think she realized that Lelouch might in fact love her. Problem was that she couldn't figure out if she was in love with him or not, and we never do find out. It's also very hard to tell if Lelouch really loved her. She was by far the closest to him, she knew everything about him and was by his side at all times, and Lelouch definitely had feelings for her. It's hard to say if those feelings were love, though.

I believe CC and Lelouch would have made the best couple, even with the gray line of love between them. They had similar morals and mindsets, and despite all of their bickering and arguing, they got along very well. Furthermore, CC is the only person who truly knows Lelouch's identity and is willing to fully accept it. Everyone else who discovers that Lelouch is Zero try to choose one identity or the other, while CC sees the two masks as one identity. I think part of my attraction for them is how they are completely honest with each other, and aren't afraid to hurt each others' feelings because they know they will always be there for each other.

I don't think things would work out so well if Lelouch and Kallen actually tried to have a romantic relationship. Kallen's mind just clashes with Lelouch's. She values honor, courage, and strength of an individual while he values intellect, the greater good, and the strength of a group. I think they are the kind of people that make amazingly great friends, but terrible couples.

Lelouch and Shirley would have been great together if it hadn't been for the series of events between them. They clearly loved each other, but it was a kind of forbidden love because of Lelouch being Zero. Even if she hadn't died, I just don't think she could handle being in love with Zero. Like Kallen, she might end up split between Lelouch's two masks, unable to choose. She fell in love with the Lelouch she knew at Ashford, and I'm just not sure that she would truly be able to see through the mask of Zero and appreciate the man inside.

Maybe I'm just crazy.
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Old 2008-12-17, 20:37   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
SPOILERS, lots of 'em.

If only Kallen could have waited a couple more minutes before barging in during episode 24, all these questions might have been answered.
If only CC didn't have interrupted them during their near proposal following by smexy scene, maybe all these questions might have been answered too...

Quote:
Kallen loved only part of Lelouch. She was split between his two masks, and I think even she didn't know which one she preferred. I believe her opinion was that the perfect Lelouch would have been a few traits from both sides, but I think she also realized how that was impossible. As for what Lelouch thought of her... It's hard to say. I honestly don't think he romantically loved her. I think he cared for her more than most other people close to him (remember his reaction of her being captured), but I think his care for her was more in a friendly love kind of way. I think if he romantically loved her, he would have kissed her back when she kissed him.
He did. Officially stated, it was a mutual kiss where they shared something important. Officially stated too.

I'll answer to the rest latter, this only seemed important.

*Busy -_-*

Oh and

Quote:
I don't think things would work out so well if Lelouch and Kallen actually tried to have a romantic relationship. Kallen's mind just clashes with Lelouch's. She values honor, courage, and strength of an individual while he values intellect, the greater good, and the strength of a group. I think they are the kind of people that make amazingly great friends, but terrible couples
Lelouch values Suzaku, Suzaku isn't made of intellect; lelouch values a lot of people, and he value Kallen to the point where he entruste his life in her hands during most of the serie.Kallen values Lelouch, nothing more to add; It's not because those people are made up of intellect or strenght that they can't like others kind of people, in this case, the serie disagree with you.
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Old 2008-12-17, 20:37   Link #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
Kallen loved only part of Lelouch. She was split between his two masks, and I think even she didn't know which one she preferred. I believe her opinion was that the perfect Lelouch would have been a few traits from both sides, but I think she also realized how that was impossible. As for what Lelouch thought of her... It's hard to say. I honestly don't think he romantically loved her. I think he cared for her more than most other people close to him (remember his reaction of her being captured), but I think his care for her was more in a friendly love kind of way. I think if he romantically loved her, he would have kissed her back when she kissed him.
This might have been true at the start of R2, but it is more or less gone by Turn 19. She's gotten over that Zero =/= Lelouch thing by that point. He's just Lelouch to her. As for the rest of that, it's confirmed that Lelouch did return her feelings in that kiss, but if you're seriously going to count it against him for denying her when he is actively trying to ruin his life... well, you get the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
I believe CC and Lelouch would have made the best couple, even with the gray line of love between them. They had similar morals and mindsets, and despite all of their bickering and arguing, they got along very well. Furthermore, CC is the only person who truly knows Lelouch's identity and is willing to fully accept it. Everyone else who discovers that Lelouch is Zero try to choose one identity or the other, while CC sees the two masks as one identity. I think part of my attraction for them is how they are completely honest with each other, and aren't afraid to hurt each others' feelings because they know they will always be there for each other.
*points to Turn 7 and whistles innocently*

Perhaps a bad example because of age, I know, but "always be there for each other" doesn't quite work when you remember that. The only reason C.C. even sees the two identities as one and the same is because she was there to see him create the fake one, so she knows already. Other people, gasp, have to figure this out because they don't have that luxury.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
I don't think things would work out so well if Lelouch and Kallen actually tried to have a romantic relationship. Kallen's mind just clashes with Lelouch's. She values honor, courage, and strength of an individual while he values intellect, the greater good, and the strength of a group. I think they are the kind of people that make amazingly great friends, but terrible couples.
I'm really not sure how to put this any more delicately, but this is just plain wrong. Both hate the strong oppressing the weak, both value the greater good (she obviously has no problem with him having caused that massacre or Geassing people), and both understand the need to be part of a group. You've actually described Suzaku and Lelouch, because Suzaku epitomizes the lone wolf traits you point out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
Lelouch and Shirley would have been great together if it hadn't been for the series of events between them. They clearly loved each other, but it was a kind of forbidden love because of Lelouch being Zero. Even if she hadn't died, I just don't think she could handle being in love with Zero. Like Kallen, she might end up split between Lelouch's two masks, unable to choose. She fell in love with the Lelouch she knew at Ashford, and I'm just not sure that she would truly be able to see through the mask of Zero and appreciate the man inside.
Shirley, like Kallen, would have gotten past it, but even so it's a love that just wouldn't work. Kallen could at least deal with Lelouch's actions because she's fighting in the war. I don't think Shirley could do the same.
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Old 2008-12-17, 20:41   Link #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
SPOILERS, lots of 'em.

If only Kallen could have waited a couple more minutes before barging in during episode 24, all these questions might have been answered.

My take on Lelouch's romance:

Kallen loved only part of Lelouch. She was split between his two masks, and I think even she didn't know which one she preferred.
Fair enough, up until the point where she discussed with Nunally though.
Then it is like she came to a conclusion, that she does not care anymore about the oh-so-called-masks. She even wondered about it once when she was on that glass box, but the "die with you" scene, implies this, that she came to an understanding of her feelings.

ETA: I agree with some of your points about C.C pretending not really caring about Lelouch, but more about his role in the contract. Along with some other scenes in R2 that comes to add in this, it shows that this is C.C denying her feelings i guess. And it is rational to start developing feelings for someone when you are spending with him so much time. What kind of feelings though? This is always the question. I still think that C.C in the end, have developed strong feelings about Lelouch, that were closest to romantic nature.

Also, about KallenxLelouch not working as a couple, well, no one can say for sure. But all their interactions, especially in R2, show, that those two somehow collide. In pretty much every scene of theirs, there is this kind of glue-power, if you can say this.
So it is more valid, to say that they would work as a couple, rather than they would not. Possibilities and scenes are with them after all.

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Old 2008-12-17, 20:56   Link #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
If only CC didn't have interrupted them during their near proposal following by smexy scene, maybe all these questions might have been answered too...

haha, touche

He did. Officially stated, it was a mutual kiss where they shared something important. Officially stated too.

ah, sorry, it seemed really one sided to me. Ignorance on my part.

I'll answer to the rest latter, this only seemed important.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
This might have been true at the start of R2, but it is more or less gone by Turn 19. She's gotten over that Zero =/= Lelouch thing by that point. He's just Lelouch to her. As for the rest of that, it's confirmed that Lelouch did return her feelings in that kiss, but if you're seriously going to count it against him for denying her when he is actively trying to ruin his life... well, you get the point.

Didn't realize it was a mutual kiss

As for getting over the Lelouch/Zero thing...It's still hard to say that for sure. I can't really think of many examples right now (brain fart), but the one that keeps coming to mind is the very end, when Suzaku is Zero. Kallen resolutely says "It's Zero. That's Zero!" I know it isn't good proof, but it just seems to me like that is implying that she still sees Zero and Lelouch as different people (of course, literally at this point)


*points to Turn 7 and whistles innocently*

Perhaps a bad example because of age, I know, but "always be there for each other" doesn't quite work when you remember that. The only reason C.C. even sees the two identities as one and the same is because she was there to see him create the fake one, so she knows already. Other people, gasp, have to figure this out because they don't have that luxury.

That's a good point that I didn't really consider. It is interesting to think of how CC would react if she had found out Lelouch was Zero halfway through the series or something.


I'm really not sure how to put this any more delicately, but this is just plain wrong. Both hate the strong oppressing the weak, both value the greater good (she obviously has no problem with him having caused that massacre or Geassing people), and both understand the need to be part of a group. You've actually described Suzaku and Lelouch, because Suzaku epitomizes the lone wolf traits you point out.

Eh, maybe you're right. I originally was going to say that their personalities would clash because of how Kallen is very emotion-oriented and quick to judge while Lelouch takes things relatively slowly and tries to use more logic than emotion. I couldn't really think of a way to put it in words (and still can't do it well, honestly), so I tried to point out some other traits...oops i guess.

Yes, I know there are TONS of exceptions to that, but as a general rule of thumb it seems to be true.


Shirley, like Kallen, would have gotten past it, but even so it's a love that just wouldn't work. Kallen could at least deal with Lelouch's actions because she's fighting in the war. I don't think Shirley could do the same.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. Shirley just hadn't been exposed to the things Lelouch was doing, and to suddenly barge in halfway through would make her emotionally unstable, to say the least.
So yeah, this is just kind of reaffirming the fact that there's no real proof of who Lelouch thought of as his true lover.

EDIT: forgot that quoting things italicized them, my responses are in italics...hold on ill fix it XD.

Fixed. Sorriez.

Last edited by Skippy; 2008-12-17 at 20:59. Reason: stupid mistakes
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Old 2008-12-17, 21:14   Link #32
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As for getting over the Lelouch/Zero thing...It's still hard to say that for sure. I can't really think of many examples right now (brain fart), but the one that keeps coming to mind is the very end, when Suzaku is Zero. Kallen resolutely says "It's Zero. That's Zero!" I know it isn't good proof, but it just seems to me like that is implying that she still sees Zero and Lelouch as different people (of course, literally at this point)
That was her supporting Lelouch's sacrifice.
If she did nothing, then what was the point? People had to believe it was Zero and she supported Zero.
Do you think she really cared about Zero at that point?
Judging by her reaction and crying I'm pretty sure she was thinking of Lelouch.
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Old 2008-12-17, 21:17   Link #33
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I would say Kallen saw Zero simply an extension, and by her own admission, a lie, of Lelouch. It's notable that she took a moment to realize that there was someone else behind the mask. "Impossible, Lelouch is over there"

Also, uhm, Euphie, Suzaku, Kallen, Jeremiah, Sayoko, Nunally, and Nina all knew and accepted the real Lelouch, not just C.C.

EDIT: Alas poor Skippy, he really got jumped on.
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Old 2008-12-17, 21:18   Link #34
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As for getting over the Lelouch/Zero thing...It's still hard to say that for sure. I can't really think of many examples right now (brain fart), but the one that keeps coming to mind is the very end, when Suzaku is Zero. Kallen resolutely says "It's Zero. That's Zero!" I know it isn't good proof, but it just seems to me like that is implying that she still sees Zero and Lelouch as different people (of course, literally at this point)
Hmm, there you are wrong. Kallen said "this is Zero" because she saw in Lelouch again, the "Zero" she once believed and follow {as in Lelouch, his sacrifice, his whole plan, she got it at this point}
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Old 2008-12-17, 21:18   Link #35
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That was her supporting Lelouch's sacrifice.
If she did nothing, then what was the point? People had to believe it was Zero and she supported Zero.
Do you think she really cared about Zero at that point?
Judging by her reaction and crying I'm pretty sure she was thinking of Lelouch.
*shrug* I do know she was crying for Lelouch, but her "That's...Zero!" line, to me, is more than just an act.

I guess it just comes down to opinion when we have no proof one way or the other, so I guess that argument's over anyway.

@incorrupts: Isn't that kind of the same thing? She sees the Zero she once believed and followed, but that Zero was also Lelouch. And I also got the impression that she realized Lelouch's sacrifice, but I never understood how she found out. Can someone explain that to me?

Last edited by Skippy; 2008-12-17 at 21:21. Reason: response
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Old 2008-12-17, 21:20   Link #36
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FYI, it is needlessly difficult to quote you when you put your replies inside the quotes you're replying to. It'd be much more helpful if you responded outside the quotes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
As for getting over the Lelouch/Zero thing...It's still hard to say that for sure. I can't really think of many examples right now (brain fart), but the one that keeps coming to mind is the very end, when Suzaku is Zero. Kallen resolutely says "It's Zero. That's Zero!" I know it isn't good proof, but it just seems to me like that is implying that she still sees Zero and Lelouch as different people (of course, literally at this point)
I'm sorry to say, you entirely missed the point of that scene. The point is not that she sees them as different people. The point is that she recognizes Lelouch's plan and says what she needs to so Tohdoh doesn't fuck it up with a careless comment. She is not the least bit happy to acknowledge Suzaku like that, but she does it because that's what Lelouch wants.

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Eh, maybe you're right. I originally was going to say that their personalities would clash because of how Kallen is very emotion-oriented and quick to judge while Lelouch takes things relatively slowly and tries to use more logic than emotion. I couldn't really think of a way to put it in words (and still can't do it well, honestly), so I tried to point out some other traits...oops i guess.

Yes, I know there are TONS of exceptions to that, but as a general rule of thumb it seems to be true.
Opposites attract, it's a general rule though there are exceptions. That's why she gets through to him. I should also point out that you don't see him asking anyone else for a roll in the hay, and I seriously doubt he would even consider it with anyone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
So yeah, this is just kind of reaffirming the fact that there's no real proof of who Lelouch thought of as his true lover.
Maybe not, but we've been told, fairly explicitly, that it wasn't C.C.
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Old 2008-12-17, 21:20   Link #37
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*shrug* I do know she was crying for Lelouch, but her "That's...Zero!" line, to me, is more than just an act.

I guess it just comes down to opinion when we have no proof one way or the other, so I guess that argument's over anyway.
It's not "that", the words used objectify Zero as an idea. More accurately it is, "This is Zero."
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Old 2008-12-17, 21:23   Link #38
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Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
*shrug* I do know she was crying for Lelouch, but her "That's...Zero!" line, to me, is more than just an act.

I guess it just comes down to opinion when we have no proof one way or the other, so I guess that argument's over anyway.
No, just no. If your say this then you missed half or R2 and the whole epilogue where she is stating everything about ZR and so, about the fact she understood everything.
Her "That's Zero" while crying, is one more time an act from the Strong kallen, her way to support Lelouch is his last plan: People need to believe in Zero one more time, and there musn't be any doubt about him; Zero is no more a person but a symbol; kallen is stating that's Zero because she has to do so.

I have an hard time to understand what you are implying. Kallen was crying because Lelouch's death and you imply that Zero's persona was more important to her than that ?

There is no opinion there, there is the anime, and the sense of half of the anime in a Kallen matter >_<'
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Old 2008-12-17, 21:26   Link #39
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It's not "that", the words used objectify Zero as an idea. More accurately it is, "This is Zero."
The sub I'm looking at right now says "It's Zero. / That's...Zero!" Maybe I just have a bad sub.

That's a very acute observation though, if you are correct.
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Old 2008-12-17, 21:27   Link #40
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*shrug* I do know she was crying for Lelouch, but her "That's...Zero!" line, to me, is more than just an act.

I guess it just comes down to opinion when we have no proof one way or the other, so I guess that argument's over anyway.
Incorrect, Kallen's geass.net profile states that she understood what Lelouch's goal was and aided the Zero Requiem by acknowledging the new "Zero". There is no interpretation, it was just an act.
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