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Old 2008-12-18, 00:53   Link #61
SonOfHeaven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post


I told you, for me, the booklet just confirmed the idea i had. I mean, after their kiss, the opening-slow-eyes technique, is used frequently on romance shows, i was actually a bit surprised to see this.
So, this particular scene, had a special meaning.
Apart from bias/no bias, the booklet basically sealed something that from my pov, was obvious anyway in #22.

But thanks for taking the time to go through it back and give the exact line ~
I felt the same way. I remember when the episode first aired, I was shocked to see that scene played out how it was. Lelouch somewhat seemed sad to me. Though some members were disappointed with the scene, I thought that it seemed mutual. The NT booklet more or less confirmed what I and a few others initially thought it was when we first saw the scene.
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Old 2008-12-18, 00:59   Link #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven View Post
I felt the same way. I remember when the episode first aired, I was shocked to see that scene played out how it was. Lelouch somewhat seemed sad to me. Though a few members were disappointed with the scene, I thought that it seemed mutual. The NT booklet more or less confirmed what I and others initially thought it was when we first saw the scene.

It is quite true actually. Apart from being Kalulu or not at that point, the scene seemed like a sad goodbye between lovers that circumstances separated them. And the way the kiss scene was portrayed also. // i mean, if you just look at this scene separately, not keeping in mind charas and events and stuff, just solely this scene, that is the impression it gives.
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Old 2008-12-18, 03:54   Link #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post


I told you, for me, the booklet just confirmed the idea i had. I mean, after their kiss, the opening-slow-eyes technique, is used frequently on romance shows, i was actually a bit surprised to see this.
So, this particular scene, had a special meaning.
Hmmmmm

What is stated above ^^

+

Spoiler for You know what it is:





+

Shadows not showing his eyes (what would this symbolize? Is this a common anime cliche?) & Lelouch saying goodbye Kallen in such a sad tone

+

Official booklet

=

Profit...?

Here's what I love personally: One instance of one pairing getting an interruption outweighs the fifty interruptions of another.

Revised: I give this thread a week and a half.
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Last edited by yvj; 2008-12-18 at 04:28.
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Old 2008-12-18, 04:14   Link #64
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P.S about Kallen not reconciling Lelouch and Zero

1) Seeing him being down about Nunnally. She tries to bring up a conversation about her brother. I.E revealing personal information about herself to ease Lelouch's suffering

2) "Lelouch what do I mean you?"

3) Looking through the album with Nunnally and learning about Lelouch

3) She's captured she whispers to herself Lelouch and smiles.
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Old 2008-12-18, 05:06   Link #65
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Oh, Take four. Once again , the "mutual" kiss is brought up.
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Old 2008-12-18, 05:32   Link #66
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Originally Posted by Spring_sakura111 View Post
Oh, Take four. Once again , the "mutual" kiss is brought up.
Spoiler for Rage:


Maybe.....just maybe....certain other pairings are ignoring the booklet because they don't like it

If someone can prove it's fake please do it. If it's fake I'll stop saying it. Now I don't think kalulu fans (no matter how aggressive) can fake official books. They've put the exact line out there for all to see. So if it ain't fake then it's canon whether you like or not.

The information is out there.
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Old 2008-12-18, 05:47   Link #67
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Leaving opinions/romantic prefrences aside.

In terms of hotness!

Comfort me > C.C. Moves like a cat > I can't find a vid of the Lulu Shirley Kiss o.O > I can't find a video of Lulu x CC's second kiss either t_t > Cold fish
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Old 2008-12-18, 06:00   Link #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yvj View Post
Spoiler for Rage:


Maybe.....just maybe....certain other pairings are ignoring the booklet because they don't like it

If someone can prove it's fake please do it. If it's fake I'll stop saying it. Now I don't think kalulu fans (no matter how aggressive) can fake official books. They've put the exact line out there for all to see. So if it ain't fake then it's canon whether you like or not.

The information is out there.
First off, props for posting "Do Not Go Gentle into that Good Night"

Second, I can't speak for other non-Kalulu shippers, but I can say that I neither ignore nor denounce the "mutual kiss". What's more I am in no position to determine the validity of said mutual kiss and can only assume what other translators have told us.

That doesn't mean I like it though. I don't like it anymore than the fact that my tuition is $4000 a semester, or that my room gets freezing cold, or that America elected an ignoramous to be president TWICE! But it's there and I gotta deal with it. I'm not going to bury my head in the sand.

So okay, Lelouch loved Kallen, but I also believe he loved Shirley. And though he may have loved two women (which is not at all unbelievable) I still think Shirlulu is the OTP. But again I do not deny his feelings for Kallen, I just don't think Kalulu is the OTP. So, for what it's worth, that's where I stand.

Well, it's really late now, so if anything I've said is irrational or provocative, please do not take the bait.

Nobodyman9 signing off.
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Old 2008-12-18, 06:08   Link #69
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
First off, props for posting "Do Not Go Gentle into that Good Night"

Second, I can't speak for other non-Kalulu shippers, but I can say that I neither ignore nor denounce the "mutual kiss". What's more I am in no position to determine the validity of said mutual kiss and can only assume what other translators have told us.

That doesn't mean I like it though. I don't like it anymore than the fact that my tuition is $4000 a semester, or that my room gets freezing cold, or that America elected an ignoramous to be president TWICE! But it's there and I gotta deal with it. I'm not going to bury my head in the sand.

So okay, Lelouch loved Kallen, but I also believe he loved Shirley. And though he may have loved two women (which is not at all unbelievable) I still think Shirlulu is the OTP. But again I do not deny his feelings for Kallen, I just don't think Kalulu is the OTP. So, for what it's worth, that's where I stand.

Well, it's really late now, so if anything I've said is irrational or provocative, please do not take the bait.

Nobodyman9 signing off.

I felt the poem added a sense of culture to the thread XD

Oh I'm not saying you shouldor need to like it. But like you said "But it's there and I gotta deal with it. I'm not going to bury my head in the sand."

That's absolutely fine with me its actually more reasonable than most of my stances.
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Old 2008-12-18, 07:53   Link #70
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Hello there, romance thread 4. Here's to hoping you'll remain a civil place to dicuss matters in a civil manner.

I just thought I'd share my view on the kiss scene and the booklet issue as a non-kalulu shipper. It's not to start a war, nor mock kalulu shippers, it's just my take on it, as someone who never really saw anything romantic in the way Lelouch treated Kallen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post

It is quite true actually. Apart from being Kalulu or not at that point, the scene seemed like a sad goodbye between lovers that circumstances separated them. And the way the kiss scene was portrayed also. // i mean, if you just look at this scene separately, not keeping in mind charas and events and stuff, just solely this scene, that is the impression it gives.
The way I saw this scene, this is not the impression I got. It was a goodbye scene, but while Kallen's feelings couldn't be clearer, in context, Lelouch's were as ambiguous as ever. That means that I can't say he doesn't love her back, but I can't say he does either. I saw a guy trying to keep his straight face on because he didn't want to involve someone he loves (using the general Lelouch-love meaning here) further into his plans of doom.

For it to be seen as "two lovers that circumstances separated", we'd have to have previous evidence that Lelouch loved Kallen, in that way, and from my point of view, there weren't any. Or at least, none that could be obvious enough that the audience would have to start questioning his feelings (I know I didn't). I think he only realized she loved him when she went and kissed him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yvj View Post
Maybe.....just maybe....certain other pairings are ignoring the booklet because they don't like it

If someone can prove it's fake please do it. If it's fake I'll stop saying it. Now I don't think kalulu fans (no matter how aggressive) can fake official books. They've put the exact line out there for all to see. So if it ain't fake then it's canon whether you like or not.

The information is out there.
Now, booklet stuff. Let's try to do this in a peaceful manner.

Look at it that way. While a LelouchxKallen analysis of the show can make sense, a non-Kalulu analysis of the show, as far as I - and my colleagues xD - are concerned, can also make sense. Or more simply, some of us never saw the pairing as "painfully obvious", hence our disagreement with the recent interpretations of side materials. That's not to say Lelouch loving Kallen is impossible, it's just that we don't see it (as I was more or less saying above with the kiss scene). Now, in such a context, I guess only something really official stating Lelouch was indeed in love with Kallen would make us rethink our entire view on the matter (because even though I guess that will sound hypocritical, I'm not being intentionally blind. This is what I deduced while watching the show). It would be a shock, and we'd have a hard time believing it, but we would have a good reason to change our views.

Now, the NT booklet turns up. After two seasons of translators warning us to take magazine stuff with a grain of salt, I don't see what's so surprising about us choosing to be sceptical about it. True, it's apparently at least based on official views - but how to tell what's to be trusted or not? Let's assume it wasn't made up. What we got on this side of the fandom are interpretations of one kanji by - again, not trying to start a war, but like Narona, this is the impression I got - Kalulu shippers. The sentence itself is not "Lelouch loved Kallen, b*tches" it's "they shared a mutual kiss". Coupled with the way some of us saw the scene, it doesn't 100% justify a complete rethinking of the way we understood their relationship.

Add to this the fact that unlike with other "revelations", this matter seems to be hardly discussed among japanese fans. If it was so important and meaningful, my guess is that people would talk about it a lot more.

tl;dr: it's not that we're ignoring the booklet because we don't like it. We're just sceptical about it because we don't like it and because there are reasons to be sceptical about it from where I'm standing.

That said, I'm already late so I'll go and hope no one will take offence from this post ^^;
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Old 2008-12-18, 09:05   Link #71
Spring_sakura111
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I'm not against the Mutual Kiss. Whether it's true or not , I wouldn't get mad.

And Woohoo for Miss Eliarine for a long and awesome post~!! Wooho!!

Yes, I do agree. As I've said before on Take 3 , I saw that kiss as a sort of closure especially that both of them said GOODBYE to each other. If Kallen understood Lelouch with that kiss , I'm sure she would've switched sides. Instead , he lost Kallen. Kallen loses Lelouch and realized AFTER his death what he was doing all along.
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Old 2008-12-18, 09:27   Link #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliarine View Post
For it to be seen as "two lovers that circumstances separated", we'd have to have previous evidence that Lelouch loved Kallen, in that way, and from my point of view, there weren't any. Or at least, none that could be obvious enough that the audience would have to start questioning his feelings (I know I didn't). I think he only realized she loved him when she went and kissed him.
I said that if someone watches this scene, solely this one, it seems like these two are two sad people, with feelings for each other, that are being separated due to a lot of reasons. That was just the visual effect of it and the way, the scene was shown. I meant, like solo this scene. The techniques used on the particular segment, are frequently used for these kind of scenes. {calm music, the close up, the not showing faces when they say goodbye}

Now, adding the "confirmation" coming from the booklet, cause we can't actually ignore this you guys, it adds another meaning. I am no claiming in any way, that Lelouch would do karaoke-love-songs-nights for Kallen, i do not.
But, taking into account the line "mutual kiss", this indicates that at least for that moment, Lelouch had/felt romantic feelings for Kallen. Even if it was for this moment.
I am not trying to be biased here or anything, i just point out something that is definitely there, coming from the staff as well.

@spring sakura: Kallen could not figure out the ZR by kissing Lelouch, i mean what? Does she have micro-chip-genius on her tongue that read people's minds? The kissing-scene, was about understanding her own feelings and his as well. {thought she understood his feelings a bit late but this is another discussion}

Last edited by incorrupts; 2008-12-18 at 09:39.
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Old 2008-12-18, 09:30   Link #73
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Mh, not that I have much to add to what Eliarine and Nobodyman9 said about the non-kalulu position. I don't like the Lovesick-Karen character development to begin with - there my lack of appreciation for the pairing - but that she was in love with him is more than evident.
I frankly don't care and really can't tell if Lelouch was in love with her or not in the end, judging from the series alone, because I swear in all honesty I've never seen something enlightening in that sense, like I didn't say something totally enlightening for any other girl Lelouch might have loved/feel attracted to inside the show.

If the intention of the writers was to make it obvious in the show, as it seems from this famous side material, OK, fair enough, but I feel like they do not performed it greatly in the show, while other things are blantant. I don't remember all the episodes from s1 in detail, but if I'm not wrong, Suzaku never said out straightforwardly that he loved Euphemia, but that was more than evident in the show.
Lelouch's love for Karen wasn't equally obvious in the show or at least I failed to see it. Call me idiotic or dumb if you want, but I'm not in denial saying that I did not see it happening. ^^;

And for the side materials, yes, the fact that it's hard to have acces to them just complicates things for the worst, and I guess that's the understandable reason why a lot of people were skeptical when the famous booklet was realeased. Thanks to everyone that makes the effort to share the sources with us non-moonspeaking fandom, btw ^^

EDIT@Sky: All you said makes perfect sense, but the kiss scene is not a scene alone. There's just so many things that are going on from.. the 36 previous episodes of Code Geass between Karen and Lelouch (and also the dialogue they have before about him being Zero, his sudden change and everything Karen said) that a viewer is, IMHO, totally justified in not reading Lelouch's reaction like - I love you but I can't tell you now, I'm sorry.
There are reasons for the 'I'm sorry' part, that is the more evident, even without the 'I love you'.

If a 'I love you' parte was there too, okay, I don't like it, but I won't deny its existence.
But I didn't feel like I've missed something important while I watched that scene, therefore, at least for me, the rendition of this 'mutuality of feelings' from the staff was anything but brilliant in the show.

Last edited by Levy; 2008-12-18 at 10:00.
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Old 2008-12-18, 10:01   Link #74
Spring_sakura111
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post



@spring sakura: Kallen could not figure out the ZR by kissing Lelouch, i mean what? Does she have micro-chip-genius on her tongue that read people's minds? The kissing-scene, was about understanding her own feelings and his as well. {thought she understood his feelings a bit late but this is another discussion}
It just means that her loyalty towards him wasn't strong enough to trust him. I mean , Kallen loves Lelouch. Did she even think that Lelouch wasn't THAT kind of person. I know Kallen knows him. That kiss was supposed to be like..a feeling...the answer to her question. But she didn't understand. Which made them both enemies. Sad. It would've been nice if Kallen was fighting against Schineizel.
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Old 2008-12-18, 10:14   Link #75
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It just means that her loyalty towards him wasn't strong enough to trust him. I mean , Kallen loves Lelouch. Did she even think that Lelouch wasn't THAT kind of person. I know Kallen knows him. That kiss was supposed to be like..a feeling...the answer to her question. But she didn't understand. Which made them both enemies. Sad. It would've been nice if Kallen was fighting against Schineizel.
Some things I'd like to throw out there

1) The fact that she wanted him to explain himself to her instead of believing the truth/evidence from the BK means her trust in him was still very high.

2) Nunnally the person who should have understood Lelouch the most out of everyone....didn't understand. Suzaku Lelouch's best friend didn't understand him for a season and half.....Kallen not figuring out ZR is expected.

3) What happened during the kiss wasn't what was important to Kallen. It's what didn't happen after. Lelouch went back to his mask and didn't explain.

Even if his tongue was flapping around in her mouth the fact that he went back to his mask with his cold stare meant "I'm shutting you out. I won't explain why I'm doing this and I will continue to do it."

That answer did not gel with Kallen's ideals. At that point she felt she had to stop him.

4) Lelouch didn't want Kallen going down the "demon path" hence why he didn't get her to fight along side him.
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Old 2008-12-18, 10:33   Link #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spring_sakura111 View Post
It just means that her loyalty towards him wasn't strong enough to trust him. I mean , Kallen loves Lelouch. Did she even think that Lelouch wasn't THAT kind of person. I know Kallen knows him. That kiss was supposed to be like..a feeling...the answer to her question. But she didn't understand. Which made them both enemies. Sad. It would've been nice if Kallen was fighting against Schineizel.
Fair enough. But, keep in mind, that loving someone and believing in someone is kinda different at times.
It is like what Kallen said, in the second episode of R2, she wants to believe in him. And she does, up until the epi 19, where Lelouch goes around screwing everyone, yet leaves an open window with his "live on" line and a lot of other stuff that can make Kallen an emotional mess.
It is obvious that after epi 19, she just wants an honest answer, she desperately seeks it but well, Lelouch is being Lelouch.
Kallen wanted both to love him and believe in him/support him, but Lelouch "forced" her with his actions to choose one path. Her dreams/ideal over the belief in him.
And btw, no. Kallen is the most loyal of the BK, since epi 13 of S1. She is loyal both to Zero and Lelouch. But again, horrid actions and unanswered questions make you doubt. Happens to everyone.

At this exactly turn, a lot of anti-Kallen go beating you-kicking you-and telling you is fair towards Kallen. Decide you guys, you want her oh-so-called-lovesick following Lelouch everywhere, or stand up to her own beliefs and fight the man she loves? I mean, seriously.
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Old 2008-12-18, 10:41   Link #77
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At this exactly turn, a lot of anti-Kallen go beating you-kicking you-and telling you is fair towards Kallen. Decide you guys, you want her oh-so-called-lovesick following Lelouch everywhere, or stand up to her own beliefs and fight the man she loves? I mean, seriously.[/FONT][/B]
LOL great point. There were many example of this on AS.

Before EP 22 there was "If Kallen joins Lelouch then she's just a fangirl etc etc."

After ep 22 "Well she didn't even understand Lelouch/OMG I can't believe she's fighting against Lelough what a bitch"


Kallen can't win
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Old 2008-12-18, 10:59   Link #78
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And you just pointed out the most annyoing trait of the generic basher: when they do not like someone, that someone can't win. Like -Never.

I really admire the fact that Karen stayed true to her beliefs - and yes, sky, Lelouch also did his best to force her in that direction - no matter how painfull it could be for her because of her feelings for him.

And, as Zero Requiem is in the end an epic farce, Karen and Lelouch might have fight each other in the last battle, but he knew he was not fighting for real all along, and she realized this when Zero reappered. Her faith in him has been questioned by all the thing he purposedly did to make her follow the path he wanted for her - and here you have the typicall manipulative Lelouch that can't help but deciding on his own what is better for his beloved, Nunnaly being the most evident example - but her faith in him was able to survive everything Lelouch throw at her... if this is not being faithfull, then I wonder what is....
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Old 2008-12-18, 11:38   Link #79
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I didn't want to join in the fray but...

Wondering why 2ch has been quiet? It's because 2ch rurukare fans don't clamor so much because they're already in a state of blissful satisfaction, though the rurukare thread there still has to battle the occasional troll.

Here is the scan of that NT booklet:

Spoiler for size:

Credit goes to pink-chan

(Btw, gomen ne, pink-chan, for posting this. I cropped part of it and resized it to 50%.)

And the exact description of the kiss is:

最初で最後の口づけを交わし、ルルーシュに決別に告げるカレン。
Sharing the first and last kiss, Kallen bids Lelouch farwell.

If we want to go literal here, it says,
Exchanging the last kiss at the first, Kallen tells Lelouch farewell.

Whoa, that just sounds weird.

Geez. Didn't know that talking about it in private would lead to this eruption of Mt. Pinatubo. dec mentioned it to me, so I tried to look it up on the net and I got several Cold Mountain posters with Jude Law and Nicole Kidman lips to lips on the front and some torrid *blip*. Traumatizing, really. I read some japanese blogs to see the context in which it was used and read some interesting things like, 'after exchanging kisses, they understood their feelings for each other', 'they exchanged a passionate kiss', and what else. So then, I wondered about the actual usage of the line and asked Lie about it. There are implications as to the meaning of the line. Lie already gave them a page back. Whether you believe those or not (was it a mutual kiss or not?) is up to you.

The fastest way to describe a kiss is simply to say it is a kiss, right? Either, the NT booklet was just going for some fancy, descriptive way of rephrasing it, (goodness knows how many times the word 'kiss' has been reiterated), or it wanted to convey a message.

The description is an affirmation of what others have been getting at/to, really. Just like how it's a culmination of Kallen's (and possibly Lelouch's) realizations, this is also a culmination of the search for missing pieces of the puzzle for some people. So others may be in the festive mood and feel like shout out their joy or others might just be like hens cooing peacefully in blissful satisfaction.
(This kiss, btw, has been considered by Murata the continuation of Turn 7's not kiss.)

As for other implications of a romantic nature, you won't find much. From Murata and Yoshino's interview in the NT booklet, we get:
C.C. - will continue to act as an observer (Turn 24)
Shirley - understood Lelouch's feelings and intentions in her own terms (Turn 13)
Kallen - heartbreak everywhere >.< (Turn 19, 22...)

Last edited by blottyparchment; 2008-12-18 at 12:13.
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Old 2008-12-18, 11:39   Link #80
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the scene does look like its framed as a lovers parting forever scene
if i have to discrabe what it actually looks like its when taken out of context
"girl comes out and tells a guy how she feels about him, and the guy not being able to tell her that he feels the same becouse...
and ends up droping the mask and revealing his actual feelings to us the viewers (but not to the girl) once she's out of range

he doesnt tell her that he doesnt feel the same (that would be an easy "i'm sorry")
he cant admit that he DOES
he asks that they spend just a little more time together (knowing that it would be the last time)
he cant look her in the eye when she asks him
cant help but kiss her back
and in the end wispers farwell sadly once she cant hear him again

that is what the scene looks like if seen alone
but like people said the scene is NOT a solo scene and has context
but the context actually ADDS to the interpretaion that its a "lovers goodbye" scene
once you add to that the fact that we now know WHY HE CANT let her know the truth
that he does not in fact HAVE a future to share with her
and that it was in fact his WISH that she lives on and can fullfil her dream
the scene can still be viewed as such (maybe even more so)

edit
10x blotty
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