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Old 2008-12-18, 05:11   Link #2141
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by ZeroSama View Post
However what about Kallen? Now i know shes more of a brawler than anything else but the Shen Hu was easily superior to the original Guren and equal too or slightly better than the enhanced aerial version. Kallen could handle the SEITEN though and its like what, over 9000 times better? Why didn't she get it? I'm sure she could've easily raped Suzaku in the Lancelot in S1 if she had it, plot constraints be damned.
Probably because no one knew Kallen was capable of handling such a machine. There's no indication that the Guren Nishiki is like the Lancelot in the aspect that only certain people can pilot it effectively--and if that's the case, then no one would know Kallen's capabilities allowed her to pilot over-spec'd Knightmares such as the Lancelot series, Shen-Hu, and Guren SEITEN Hakkyoukashiki.
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Old 2008-12-18, 05:16   Link #2142
Spring_sakura111
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Nah. Guren Kallen would've kicked Shen hu Xing ke's ass when she didn't ran out of energy. SERIOUSLY.
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Old 2008-12-18, 05:22   Link #2143
ZeroSama
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Probably because no one knew Kallen was capable of handling such a machine. There's no indication that the Guren Nishiki is like the Lancelot in the aspect that only certain people can pilot it effectively--and if that's the case, then no one would know Kallen's capabilities allowed her to pilot over-spec'd Knightmares such as the Lancelot series, Shen-Hu, and Guren SEITEN Hakkyoukashiki.
Theres no indication that the Guren isn't either however(splitting hairs i know), since the Guren and Lancelot where evenly matched in S1 until it gots its flight upgrade.

Thats only true until the Gurens initial deployment however. Once Lakshata gets a look at Kallens combat data, which she would eventually if for no other reason than to see how it performed and to iron out its bugs, its not that hard to assume that she'd go "Oh she's using it at 88% of its power? I wonder how she's handle the Shen Hu?".

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Originally Posted by Spring_sakura111 View Post
Nah. Guren Kallen would've kicked Shen hu Xing ke's ass when she didn't ran out of energy. SERIOUSLY.
Obviously since he began coughing up blood 5 secs after the fight was finished, if it had dragged out any longer Xing Ke and Shen Hu would've ended up FUBAR.
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Old 2008-12-18, 06:59   Link #2144
bladeofdarkness
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the shen hu actually looks like a britannian 7th gen more then the guren types (guren gekka and akatsuki)
i wonder if it wasnt actually built at the same time as the OLD guren
as in the one we never actaually saw on the show
the one we saw was the guren MK II
the MK I was never actually seen (im guessing they are differet machines)
and im guessing that it was more like a britannian KMF then the later guren types (at least in the cockpit design)

and about kallen piloting it
i think its rather obvius that she could pilot it
she piloted a much more powerful machine later on (and was able to match the shen hu in a slightly lesser machine)
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Old 2008-12-18, 07:26   Link #2145
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the shen hu actually looks like a britannian 7th gen more then the guren types (guren gekka and akatsuki)
i wonder if it wasnt actually built at the same time as the OLD guren
as in the one we never actaually saw on the show
the one we saw was the guren MK II
the MK I was never actually seen (im guessing they are differet machines)
and im guessing that it was more like a britannian KMF then the later guren types (at least in the cockpit design)

and about kallen piloting it
i think its rather obvius that she could pilot it
she piloted a much more powerful machine later on (and was able to match the shen hu in a slightly lesser machine)

My thoughts exactly. I was 90% sure that it was built around the same time as the original Guren and i'm glad to see that you agree that she could pilot it.
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Old 2008-12-18, 15:05   Link #2146
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Originally Posted by ZeroSama View Post
Theres no indication that the Guren isn't either however(splitting hairs i know), since the Guren and Lancelot where evenly matched in S1 until it gots its flight upgrade.

Thats only true until the Gurens initial deployment however. Once Lakshata gets a look at Kallens combat data, which she would eventually if for no other reason than to see how it performed and to iron out its bugs, its not that hard to assume that she'd go "Oh she's using it at 88% of its power? I wonder how she's handle the Shen Hu?".
Well, realistically Lakshata didn't say such a thing because there might not have been a Shen-hu in the original R2 plans, thus no need to foreshadow it.

I'm not trying to say that Kallen can't pilot it or something. All I'm saying is that the people in the show just didn't know she could pilot advanced machines despite them being over-spec'd. I don't think the Guren Nishiki is considered a machine only few can pilot because they never said it was such, when they did say it was such for the Lancelot. If it was, I think it would've been mentioned, but it only got mentioned for its third incarnation, the SEITEN Hakkyoukashiki.

Skillwise, Kallen can definitely pilot it without problems. She's also likely one of the few people who could effectively pilot the Lancelot.
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Old 2008-12-18, 15:28   Link #2147
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Well, realistically Lakshata didn't say such a thing because there might not have been a Shen-hu in the original R2 plans, thus no need to foreshadow it.

I'm not trying to say that Kallen can't pilot it or something. All I'm saying is that the people in the show just didn't know she could pilot advanced machines despite them being over-spec'd. I don't think the Guren Nishiki is considered a machine only few can pilot because they never said it was such, when they did say it was such for the Lancelot. If it was, I think it would've been mentioned, but it only got mentioned for its third incarnation, the SEITEN Hakkyoukashiki.

Skillwise, Kallen can definitely pilot it without problems. She's also likely one of the few people who could effectively pilot the Lancelot.
Ah, no there's no indication that says Kallen could pilot the Lancelot and there's no indication that Suzak)u could pilot the Guren (which Lloyd and Cecile suggested to Suzaku in ep 17 that he should pilot it but because he didn't want anyone to use Freya he opted for the Lancelot instead)
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Old 2008-12-18, 15:32   Link #2148
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Originally Posted by Mahakala View Post
Ah, no there's no indication that says Kallen could pilot the Lancelot and there's no indication that Suzak)u could pilot the Guren (which Lloyd and Cecile suggested to Suzaku in ep 17 that he should pilot it but because he didn't want anyone to use Freya he opted for the Lancelot instead)
I know that there isn't. S'why I said that its only likely that she could. To be fair, though, there's never a single possible chance for her to use the Lancelot, so it wouldn't be known. The Black Knights would've had to capture the Lancelot and have Lakshata examine it and have Kallen test it to see. And I do remember Lloyd and Cecile saying that no one, not even Suzaku, could pilot the Guren SEITEN Hakkyoukashiki at 100% efficiency, but I believe they figured Suzaku to be the best man for the job.
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Old 2008-12-18, 15:37   Link #2149
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I know that there isn't. S'why I said that its only likely that she could. To be fair, though, there's never a single possible chance for her to use the Lancelot, so it wouldn't be known. The Black Knights would've had to capture the Lancelot and have Lakshata examine it and have Kallen test it to see. And I do remember Lloyd and Cecile saying that no one, not even Suzaku, could pilot the Guren SEITEN Hakkyoukashiki at 100% efficiency, but I believe they figured Suzaku to be the best man for the job.
Well if C.C. could pilot the Lancelot then it must not be as complicated as say the Guren and if I recall Kallen only could use it over 60% percent if I'm not mistaken.
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Old 2008-12-18, 15:41   Link #2150
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actually Lloyd said that at "even at only 60% power output it could ..."
not that she was actually using only 60%
and what ever power out power she was using
it was a match for the max power output that suzaku could use the albion at with his live geass on
the albion mind you was CUSTOM BUILT for suzaku
it was probably lower then suzaku's albion power output using level
but not by much
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Old 2008-12-18, 15:44   Link #2151
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by Mahakala View Post
Well if C.C. could pilot the Lancelot then it must not be as complicated as say the Guren and if I recall Kallen only could use it over 60% percent if I'm not mistaken.
Yes, well, its not the first time we've seen a Code Bearer use a Knightmare that by all means they shouldn't be using. We've seen V.V. use the Siegfried despite it needing to be plugged into its pilot's spine. And besides, when we saw C.C. using it, well, she wasn't exactly the best.

And no, we don't know that Kallen was using it at that percent: Lloyd said that "even if someone brought it up to sixty percent". Not that Kallen had brought it up to 60%. Simply put, we don't know what level of efficiency she was using it at.
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Old 2008-12-18, 15:52   Link #2152
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
actually Lloyd said that at "even at only 60% power output it could ..."
not that she was actually using only 60%
and what ever power out power she was using
it was a match for the max power output that suzaku could use the albion at with his live geass on
the albion mind you was CUSTOM BUILT for suzaku
it was probably lower then suzaku's albion power output using level
but not by much
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
And no, we don't know that Kallen was using it at that percent: Lloyd said that "even if someone brought it up to sixty percent". Not that Kallen had brought it up to 60%. Simply put, we don't know what level of efficiency she was using it at.
The Lancelot Albion specs were weaker than the Guren's mind you so it wouldn't matter if he was giving his all or not (obviously it did) and it was never really stated what efficiency they both were at the time of their final battle but you can tell they were giving their all.
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Old 2008-12-18, 15:56   Link #2153
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Mahakala View Post
The Lancelot Albion specs were weaker than the Guren's mind you so it wouldn't matter if he was giving his all or not (obviously it did)
not if he was giving it his all
i dont think that suzaku could use the albion at 100% power output
but what ever level he could use it at when using his geass order (probably 90%)
kallen used the guren at a power level that equals that much
but its probably like 80% power output from what the guren's max can do (since the guren was more powerful)
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Old 2008-12-18, 15:59   Link #2154
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All we know is that spec-wise, the Guren SEITEN Hakkyoukashiki should be superior to the Lancelot Albion, which is what Kallen said.
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Old 2008-12-18, 16:23   Link #2155
bladeofdarkness
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by the way
how exactly DOES kallen know that
suzaku seemed pretty sure he'd win the fight (and is surprised that he cant)
and its not like rakshata had a chance to inspect the lancelot (any version of it)

kallen thinks that she should have better specs which should let her win
but suzaku isnt too worried about the spec difference
and while kallen has no real way of knowing that the SEITEN is better
suzaku would have a VERY good way of knowing (Lloyd did make both)
and after the beating he took in ep 18 i dont think that its possible for suzaku to get his new albion and not ask "how would this compere with the guren"
suzaku knows the answer and expcets to win
kallen has no real way of knowing and yet she says it

the whole thing just reeks of bad writing IMO which was commen for the final arc)
the whole thing is made evident in exactly one line from kallen (who has no real way to be sure)
and if you think about it logiclly there is no reason what so ever for Lloyd to make the albion LESS powerful then the SEITEN
he could use his new tech to make the guren (which he just got handed) powerful to a level
but he cant make his newly built KMF just as powerful
iit was his tech that gave the guren higher specs after all

i think that from a plot point of view its just a counter for the whole "live geass SEED mode"
they needed kallen to say something to show that suzaku is strong (in the same way that he said she was)
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Old 2008-12-18, 16:27   Link #2156
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
by the way
how exactly DOES kallen know that
suzaku seemed pretty sure he'd win the fight (and is surprised that he cant)
and its not like rakshata had a chance to inspect the lancelot (any version of it)

kallen thinks that she should have better specs which should let her win
but suzaku isnt too worried about the spec difference
and while kallen has no real way of knowing that the SEITEN is better
suzaku would have a VERY good way of knowing (Lloyd did make both)
and after the beating he took in ep 18 i dont think that its possible for suzaku to get his new albion and not ask "how would this compere with the guren"
suzaku knows the answer and expcets to win
kallen has no real way of knowing and yet she says it

the whole thing just reeks of bad writing IMO which was commen for the final arc)
the whole thing is made evident in exactly one line from kallen (who has no real way to be sure)
and if you think about it logiclly there is no reason what so ever for Lloyd to make the albion LESS powerful then the SEITEN
he could use his new tech to make the guren (which he just got handed) powerful to a level
but he cant make his newly built KMF just as powerful
iit was his tech that gave the guren higher specs after all
The closest I can think of is Gino, actually. After all, suddenly Bismarck knew what it was, despite the fact that when it was first mentioned, Gino hadn't had a clue what it was.

Warning: Flimsy theory ahead:

All I can say is that likely, after Lelouch and Suzaku disappeared for a month, Gino or someone probably talked to Lloyd about the Lancelot Albion and found out its specs, and later he told the other Knights of Rounds about it after the coup. And then after all but three of the Knights of Rounds died at its hands, Gino told what he knew of it to Lakshata and the Black Knights.

Of course, this is only a theory, in no way should it be considered canon.
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Old 2008-12-18, 16:35   Link #2157
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
by the way
how exactly DOES kallen know that
suzaku seemed pretty sure he'd win the fight (and is surprised that he cant)
and its not like rakshata had a chance to inspect the lancelot (any version of it)

kallen thinks that she should have better specs which should let her win
but suzaku isnt too worried about the spec difference
and while kallen has no real way of knowing that the SEITEN is better
suzaku would have a VERY good way of knowing (Lloyd did make both)
and after the beating he took in ep 18 i dont think that its possible for suzaku to get his new albion and not ask "how would this compere with the guren"
suzaku knows the answer and expcets to win
kallen has no real way of knowing and yet she says it

the whole thing just reeks of bad writing IMO which was commen for the final arc)
the whole thing is made evident in exactly one line from kallen (who has no real way to be sure)
and if you think about it logiclly there is no reason what so ever for Lloyd to make the albion LESS powerful then the SEITEN
he could use his new tech to make the guren (which he just got handed) powerful to a level
but he cant make his newly built KMF just as powerful
iit was his tech that gave the guren higher specs after all

i think that from a plot point of view its just a counter for the whole "live geass SEED mode"
they needed kallen to say something to show that suzaku is strong (in the same way that he said she was)
Zero's Requiem was Suzaku top priority not winning. Like he said he was Lelouch's sword and made sure no one got to him and he did that by taking down most of the BK's forces and disabling the Guren, my guess is that he knew he would live regardless who won that's my only explanation to how he survived anyway. Plus the Lancelot Albion was already completed before the Guren SEITEN since in episode 20 Suzaku asked Lloyd to get it ready. Everything else is more or less what you said, bad writing. Since it's unlike Lloyd to not give something extra to the Lancelot (his pride and joy) to overthrow the Guren. As for Suzaku he probably wasn't expecting to battle the Guren in the first place since he seemed surprised when she broke through the barrier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
The closest I can think of is Gino, actually. After all, suddenly Bismarck knew what it was, despite the fact that when it was first mentioned, Gino hadn't had a clue what it was.

Warning: Flimsy theory ahead:

All I can say is that likely, after Lelouch and Suzaku disappeared for a month, Gino or someone probably talked to Lloyd about the Lancelot Albion and found out its specs, and later he told the other Knights of Rounds about it after the coup. And then after all but three of the Knights of Rounds died at its hands, Gino told what he knew of it to Lakshata and the Black Knights.

Of course, this is only a theory, in no way should it be considered canon.
Well this is Gino we're talking about, his development in the last few episodes didn't make any sense and now your saying he knows about the Albion functions and ratted to Rakshata about it (though that may explain how he got his new Tristan)
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Old 2008-12-18, 20:17   Link #2158
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Plus the Lancelot Albion was already completed before the Guren SEITEN since in episode 20 Suzaku asked Lloyd to get it ready.
It was just rolling off the assembly line, hence it was completed after the Guren, not before. Suzaku's question has no bearing on its status at the time.
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Old 2008-12-18, 20:34   Link #2159
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It was just rolling off the assembly line, hence it was completed after the Guren, not before. Suzaku's question has no bearing on its status at the time.
No it was completed since Suzaku asked Lloyd about in Turn 20 and the battle took place in Turn 18, so unless there's a gap inbetween I'll like to see.
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Old 2008-12-18, 20:37   Link #2160
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Mahakala View Post
No it was completed since Suzaku asked Lloyd about in Turn 20 and the battle took place in Turn 18, so unless there's a gap inbetween I'll like to see.
Sigh, try watching the scene again. You're not even remembering the words right.

Suzaku: What's the status of the Lancelot?
*skip filler part about which Lancelot*
Cecile: It's just about to roll out.

Hence, no, it was not completed first. In fact, it isn't even completed in the freaking episode or he would have flown it instead of some lousy shuttle.
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