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Old 2008-12-20, 23:48   Link #17921
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Mahakala View Post
I was referring to the BK not the UFN as a whole. Although if you go back to Turn 16 they were given approval by representatives to get Japan back from the Britainians by force if necessary, so in the end I can see that going through his mind and since Scheinzel himself saw no interest in the matter of keeping it I doubt he'll want it back in the end (but this is Schenzel so this alone doesn't make a solid response)
They were told to "liberate" it, which in a sense they did (or rather tried to do) by ousting Zero, but that wasn't the point. The point was to hand the Britannians an ass-whooping so the other colonies would rebel. Kaguya herself says this, so even she's looking at the bigger picture. They followed the letter (not even intentionally at that), but definitely didn't follow the spirit.

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Originally Posted by Mahakala View Post
Despite his faults I seriously doubt that was Ougi's intention to do with Kallen, he was probably expecting her to move out the way but knew if she supports such a tyrant (which Lelouch blatantly stated) that she herself might be under his geass so to just put her out of her misery. But Kallen was still fighting a losing battle and the fact she knew (or should of) known the consequences of keeping quiet this is unsurprising.
I would buy this if it weren't for one thing: he wouldn't tell her why he wanted Zero brought down. He should have put her on the spot before ever sending her in if he really cared about her. By getting her to do the dirty work, he was ready to dispose of her before it even came to it. There's no excusing that. Even if she's under the effect of Geass, it doesn't excuse his behavior. He's acting like Zero then complaining about it after. It annoys me to no end that he doesn't even get called on it to any extreme. Kallen tries, but she's all depressed and quiet at that point while Ohgi's too full of himself to listen.

As for Kallen knowing, they don't know how much she knows, so her knowledge of his activities has no bearing on their behavior unlesss they questioned her first. She's his closest subordinate, that much may influence their decision, but they're still using their best friend as bait and her relationship to Zero is hardly enough to throw that away.
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Old 2008-12-21, 03:04   Link #17922
Levy
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This discussion is OT, move it to the general thread or drop it here. I think that Charred Knight nailed it, a couple of days ago: the Black Knights, as much fail as they can be, are not Lelouch's slaves. He did a lot of mistakes - willingfully or not - in keeping their trust, and at that point, with help from Schneizel, he had to face the consequence of what he did.
And I guess Mahakala is right in saying that nothing he or Karen might say on the SAZ or everything else could have gain him back their trust.

As for Karen, as much as you can like her, she's not the center of the universe for everyone, nor for the characters, nor for the fans. There's a war going on and she was suspected to be under mind controll. There's no time to be nice. Should I hate all of the BK because of what they did to Karen? I claim the right to think otherwise. I'm unable to hate anyone by default.

Ohgi being a shitty big brother for her? Sure thing, and that's one of things I absolutely don't like in R2, but she still cares for him in the end, so, if Karen understood and forgive all of them, why should I bother?
Remember that they don't know that she's close to Lelouch also. They do not know nor could have an idea of the emotive impact the mutiny might have on Karen, and you can't seriously blame them for not having been able to figure out that.
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Old 2008-12-21, 03:10   Link #17923
dec4rhapsody
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levy View Post
This discussion is OT, move it to the general thread or drop it here. I think that Charred Knight nailed it, a couple of days ago: the Black Knights, as much fail as they can be, are not Lelouch's slaves. He did a lot of mistakes - willingfully or not - in keeping their trust, and at that point, with help from Schneizel, he had to face the consequence of what he did.
And I guess Mahakala is right in saying that nothing he or Karen might say on the SAZ or everything else could have gain him back their trust.


As for Karen, as much as you can like her, she's not the center of the universe for everyone, nor for the characters, nor for the fans. There's a war going on and she was suspected to be under mind controll. There's no time to be nice. Should I hate all of the BK because of what they did to Karen? I claim the right to think otherwise. I'm unable to hate anyone by default.

Ohgi being a shitty big brother for her? Sure thing, and that's one of things I absolutely don't like in R2, but she still cares for him in the end, so, if Karen understood and forgive all of them, why should I bother?

Remember that they don't know that she's close to Lelouch also. They do not know nor could have an idea of the emotive impact the mutiny might have on Karen, and you can't seriously blame them for not having been able to figure out that.
I can't agree more...And about the Ougi thing, this guy was todally occupied with his own concerns, can't blame him.
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Old 2008-12-21, 03:14   Link #17924
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
And I guess Mahakala is right in saying that nothing he or Karen might say on the SAZ or everything else could have gain him back their trust.
Probably not, but they weren't even willing to listen. That's what pushes it over the line. It's one thing to remove a leader from power when he's proved himself untrustworthy. Killing him on the spot and covering it up so you can buy back a country? That pretty much invalidates any rational reason you had for doing it and turns it into dealing under the table.

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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
As for Karen, as much as you can like her, she's not the center of the universe for everyone, nor for the characters, nor for the fans. There's a war going on and she was suspected to be under mind controll. There's no time to be nice. Should I hate all of the BK because of what they did to Karen? I claim the right to think otherwise. I'm unable to hate anyone by default.
That doesn't make using her as bait ok, especially if you can't prove it, and the fact that there's a war going on only casts the Black Knights in a more negative light. They way they did it only proved that she was willing to stick by her commanding officer in the face of a completely unexpected mutiny orchestrated by people unwilling to hear anything that would upset their view of events.

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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
Ohgi being a shitty big brother for her? Sure thing, and that's one of things I absolutely don't like in R2, but she still cares for him in the end, so, if Karen understood and forgive all of them, why should I bother?
Remember that they don't know that she's close to Lelouch also. They do not know nor could have an idea of the emotive impact the mutiny might have on Karen, and you can't seriously blame them for not having been able to figure out that.
Just because she still cares for him doesn't mean she forgave him for that. Hell, they don't even speak but the one time after that point, and it's just more of Ohgi's hypocritical complaining.

Considering they spent most of their time together (when he was actually there), I think they should be able to put two and two together.
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Old 2008-12-21, 03:24   Link #17925
Levy
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Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody View Post
I can't agree more...And about the Ougi thing, this guy was todally occupied with his own concerns, can't blame him.
I love the idea of Ohgi and Karen being something like brother and sister, there's a sibling motif between them since s1, but by the end of R2 the writers seems to have forget about this from Kaname's side, and that's something I don't like. ^^;

Leave aside the 'he had forget' of ep.16, and there I might agree with you that he was very much messed up and that's totally understandable, but about explicitly saying that he was him to send Karen to get Lelouch, is something the writer could have avoid -it's such a minimal line I have to rewatch the episode to get it- and something I find not fitting the relationship they were supposed to have. Saying Tohdoh - that still hass the rank to give Karen orders - gave the order would have had the very same effect and would have fit the 'war business' better.
I can't blame some Karen fans for hating Ohgi because of this - I just don't share the feeling.

EDIT: morbos, think what you want but the feeling you get both from the battle (when the Ikaruga went down) both from the ending, is everything but pointing in the direction that Karen holds any grudge against them.
Also, the BK do not know that Karen was aware of Lelouch true identity, from their POV, she's supposed to share the same sense of betrayal they get from knowing everything about him. Lack of insight from their side? Could be, but just for once, allow them to be only human..
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Old 2008-12-21, 03:28   Link #17926
dec4rhapsody
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levy View Post
I love the idea of Ohgi and Karen being something like brother and sister, there's a sibling motif between them since s1, but by the end of R2 the writers seems to have forget about this from Kaname's side, and that's something I don't like. ^^;

Leave aside the 'he had forget' of ep.16, and there I might agree with you that he was very much messed up and that's totally understandable, but about explicitly saying that he was him to send Karen to get Lelouch, is something the writer could have avoid -it's such a minimal line I have to rewatch the episode to get it- and something I find not fitting the relationship they were supposed to have. Saying Tohdoh - that still hass the rank to give Karen orders - gave the order would have had the very same effect and would have fit the 'war business' better.
I can't blame some Karen fans for hating Ohgi because of this - I just don't share the feeling.
I don't hate Ougi at all, the latter half of R2 was such a mess that I hardly take anything serious...
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Old 2008-12-21, 03:38   Link #17927
Lie
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Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody View Post
I don't hate Ougi at all, the latter half of R2 was such a mess that I hardly take anything serious...
If they had done it more spread out that whole betrayal would have made a lot more sense prolly. We prolly wouldn't think he was a blubbering idiot if they had portrayed it as they described it in Complete.
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Old 2008-12-21, 03:43   Link #17928
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Originally Posted by Lie View Post
If they had done it more spread out that whole betrayal would have made a lot more sense prolly. We prolly wouldn't think he was a blubbering idiot if they had portrayed it as they described it in Complete.
....forgive my ignorance, what is 'Complete' ?
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Old 2008-12-21, 03:43   Link #17929
dec4rhapsody
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Originally Posted by Lie View Post
If they had done it more spread out that whole betrayal would have made a lot more sense prolly. We prolly wouldn't think he was a blubbering idiot if they had portrayed it as they described it in Complete.
LOL, we need another 25 episodes for the 展開 and 超展開 attempts of R2...

Back to Kallen...
As early as the end of S1 (before the 24/25) I thought about the possibility of Kallen bitterly turning against Lelouch for using her...But I didn't imagine that things turned out "this way", him outright telling her that she was his pawn, as a LIE.

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Old 2008-12-21, 03:49   Link #17930
Lie
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Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody View Post
LOL, we need another 25 episodes for the 展開 and 超展開 attempts of R2...

Back to Kallen...
As early as the end of S1 (before the 24/25) I thought about the possibility of Kallen bitterly turning against Lelouch for using her...But I didn't imagine that things turned out "this way", him outright telling her that she was his pawn, as a LIE.
I think 50 total for R2 would have been a lot better.
Xingke might have actually gotten a role in the story after Turn 13 other than coughing blood and looking important.
Might have actually had a conclusion to his character too.
I had the same thought or similar.
That she'd betray him or turn on him after he did something truthfully to make her hate him.
I did not expect him to lie to her to make her hate him to save her.
Being rurukare can be so confusing.

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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
....forgive my ignorance, what is 'Complete' ?
Complete Guide Book for R2. It details how Schneizel took over the Order, would have made the entire thing a lot better had they had that actually in the anime. Like a lot of Kallen's, C.C.'s, and Shirley's profiles. (At least as far as shippers are concerned.)
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Old 2008-12-21, 04:13   Link #17931
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
From the complete official R2 guidebook. Translation by lijianliang on LJ

Why did the Black Knights turn against Lelouch:

This is tougher to answer since I have to skim the whole book, but here's what I've found:
- In Tohdoh's profile, it mentions that Tohdoh decided to turn against Lelouch after learning Asahina's information about the truth of the destruction of the Geass Cult, that it was actually a full-out massacre, and learning Zero's true identity being Lelouch.
- In the Activity Report, it mentions that Scheizel captured the hearts of Zero's subordinates with his impressive negotiation skills and smooth talking and made them agree to turn over Zero in exchange for the independence of Japan.
- In the synopsis for Turn 19, it says that Zero's subordinates were shocked to learn that Zero is actually a former prince of Britannia and that he has the power of Geass. Ogi and Villetta confirm this, and they do have great faith in Ogi at least. They started suspecting that their own loyalty to Zero was actually forced by the power of Geass and upon learning that Zero actually commanded Euphemia to massacre the Japanese people, they lost all of their trust in Zero and agreed to execute that deceiving betrayer.



From Kaguya's character profile:

"Kaguya didn't know the true identity of Zero until Lelouch became an emperor. However, she did intuitively grasp a part of his essential qualities."
Speaking of this, I believe. If not, oh well. Unless there's more to it, I just don't see how it could be portrayed better.
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Old 2008-12-21, 04:19   Link #17932
Lie
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Speaking of this, I believe. If not, oh well. Unless there's more to it, I just don't see how it could be portrayed better.
Not much better, just better.
The clarity on why Tohdoh acted as he did would have been nice.
The wooing by Shcneizel would have been better than Viletta /facepalm "He geassed me!"
Just adding in more to the scene would have made it make more sense.
Not that I think that could ever be salvaged into anything more than the rampant Ougi Viletta hate it spawned.
It is seriously one of the weakest points of R2 before it spiraled into a fabulous lolfest.

The character profiles, on the other hand, clear up a lot.
Kaguya did not know the truth.
Kallen, Nunally, C.C., and Suzaku did.
Kallen's answer 'kinda'.
Lelouch's little wish.
Kallen and Gino = comrades, nothing more.
C.C.'s not seen as a lover.
Shirley's understanding and the loss she was to Lelouch.
Lelouch being dead.
(from geass*net but still applicable) Nunally's vision and strange magical power to just see into people's hearts. (seriously wtf was this?)

If you put all that stuff into the actual anime, you sink a lot of crack. Clear up a lot of shipping, clear up a lot of character conclusions, clear up a lot of the confusing 'open' ending.
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Old 2008-12-21, 04:22   Link #17933
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Lie View Post
Not much better, just better.
The clarity on why Tohdoh acted as he did would have been nice.
The wooing by Shcneizel would have been better than Viletta /facepalm "He geassed me!"
Just adding in more to the scene would have made it make more sense.
Not that I think that could ever be salvaged into anything more than the rampant Ougi Viletta hate it spawned.
It is seriously one of the weakest points of R2 before it spiraled into a fabulous lolfest.
I'll agree there. If not a more rational response, not that one should expect much from people so dependent on one man, but at least seeing them arrange it instead of jumping from "we'll betray him for Japan" to "time to die bastard" would have been nice.
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Old 2008-12-21, 04:23   Link #17934
Lie
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
I'll agree there. If not a more rational response, not that one should expect much from people so dependent on one man, but at least seeing them arrange it instead of jumping from "we'll betray him for Japan" to "time to die bastard" would have been nice.
That's where the better would come from.
Its sad, how much more could have been done to clarify.
(PS: look at the edit.)
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Old 2008-12-21, 04:26   Link #17935
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Lie View Post
Kallen's answer 'kinda'.
Mind clearing up the 'kinda' part? I'm afraid I'm missing the context. The rest is old, but still good to know.

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Originally Posted by Lie View Post
If you put all that stuff into the actual anime, you sink a lot of crack. Clear up a lot of shipping, clear up a lot of character conclusions, clear up a lot of the confusing 'open' ending.
Sad part is they probably could have fit this into the 25 episodes with some editing.
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Old 2008-12-21, 04:29   Link #17936
Lie
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Mind clearing up the 'kinda' part? I'm afraid I'm missing the context. The rest is old, but still good to know.

Sad part is they probably could have fit this into the 25 episodes with some editing.
'kinda' = she was muted when he was dying and the viewer had to assume until complete/geass*net cleared up that she understood Lelouch's plan and feelings and would carry on his dream. And even then the wording used for feelings can be argued. Leaving us with she 'kinda' got her answer.

some editing = cutting out Ashford episodes you mean?
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Old 2008-12-21, 04:30   Link #17937
Levy
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Sad part is they probably could have fit this into the 25 episodes with some editing.
I feel the same. And there we go back about the point in wich knowing things from side materials can be good for my curiosity, but doesn't make me a more satisfied viewer - maybe a less satisfied one ^^;

and I wasn't totally disappointed, on the contrary, I liked R2 also with all its faults.
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Old 2008-12-21, 04:32   Link #17938
Lie
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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
and I wasn't totally disappointed, on the contrary, I liked R2 also with all its faults.
R2 was entertaining.
But pretty shitty on the spectrum of "good story telling".
It was a wild ride.
Like a train off its tracks.
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Old 2008-12-21, 04:32   Link #17939
Nobodyman9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lie View Post
The character profiles, on the other hand, clear up a lot.
Kaguya did not know the truth.
Kallen, Nunally, C.C., and Suzaku did.
Kallen's answer 'kinda'.
Lelouch's little wish.
Shirley's understanding and the loss she was to Lelouch.
Couple questions. First, I too would like to have the "kinda" part explained?

Second what "truth"? That Lelouch was Zero or the truth behind Zero Requiem? (It's the latter, right? I think Kaguya knew Lelouch was Zero) Or is it neither?

Clarify Lelouch's little wish again?

I know Shirley's "understanding" was her own understanding of Lelouch, but what exactly is meant by the "loss" she was to Lelouch?

EDIT: Okay I got the "kinda" part from the previous post. Thanks.
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Old 2008-12-21, 04:33   Link #17940
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Lie View Post
'kinda' = she was muted when he was dying and the viewer had to assume until complete/geass*net cleared up that she understood Lelouch's plan and feelings and would carry on his dream. And even then the wording used for feelings can be argued. Leaving us with she 'kinda' got her answer.

some editing = cutting out Ashford episodes you mean?
Not necessarily cutting, but they kinda dragged at the start with Lelouch playing amnesiac so it could have been reduced. Hell, Nunnally's magic hands may have been an asspull, but she could have spat out a sentence about it after pwning Romeyer and that would at least work. Same with the Black Knights mutiny. A couple of lines about arranging it would have been enough. A few minutes at most.
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