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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi?
The 1st 24 5.99%
The 2nd 3 0.75%
Sarutobi 117 29.18%
The 4th 119 29.68%
Jiraiya 27 6.73%
Orochimaru 10 2.49%
Tsunde 4 1.00%
Itachi 73 18.20%
Other...[Please State Who] 24 5.99%
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2004-05-22, 20:55   Link #61
Pillage
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Itachi and Kisame were there to take Naruto. It wouldnt be a useless fight if they had gotten Naruto.

If a ninja ran from every fight because he might get hurt, wtf is the point? You are gonna have to fight on some missions.

I said I dont think any ninja who runs away from a battle is scared. Sometimes there IS no point in a fight, like when Itachi and Kisame took off after Gai showed up. Would there be ANY point to that fight? No. Is there a reason to stay and fight Jiraiya? YES, their mission was to get Naruto.
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Old 2004-05-22, 21:03   Link #62
sarcasteak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snarl
The anime showed the almighty Uchiha clan to be only as good as those sand chuunin/jounin who got wiped out by Hiasashi's kaiten from what I saw...
Gee, perhaps that gives testament to show how superior he was compared to everyone else (at least in his own Tsukiyomi depiction)? Allow me to quote myself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcasteak
Itachi is perhaps "overrated" since he only wiped out the Uchiha Clan; had he not taken forever to eat dinner, he could've had enough time to maybe I don't know wipe out the Hyuga Clan as well? But then again, the Hyugas will forever be considered as nothing but pushovers because they lost to one guy. ^_^;;


Quote:
Originally Posted by raikage
I still doubt that the clan would have ever tried to kill Itachi - even to the very end. They would have fought to disable him without permanent injury - like if your best friend (or brother, or sister) gets really drunk and tries to start a fight with you.
Seeing how easily he supposedly wiped everyone to the floor, perhaps the latter batches would go all out because maybe just maybe without killing intention they would end up the same way? Again, everything we see is through Itachi's Tsukiyomi...he could've made up the whole incident! What really happened could've been something like this:

Quote:
Jiraya: Bunta! Gas!

Bunta: Ah! *releases gas*

Jiraiya: ...................wrong direction... -______-;;

Bunta: Damn ya ol' man, next time specify!

Jiraiya: Oh man, isn't that direction...the Uchiha Clan?!

Bunta: I don't know about ya, but I'm outta here!

...

Itachi: Oh wtf?!~ My mighty feared-by-all Uchiha Clan annihilated like this?! I can't let this be! Hmm, lemme stick shruikens and kunais on everyone and later grab a random witness to spread the rumor that I went berserk and killed everyone. Ok, sounds like a plan!
XD

BUT, since we do NOT know what happened and all we have to rely on is the "silly lil eye trick" Itachi pulled on Sasuke, then I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt, eh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raikage
The anime didn't show the Uchiha as battle-hardened warriors - quite the opposite, in my view.
Oh...because they were in their casual clothes and not standard Leaf-outfit (like the Hyugas?)...or because we saw them supposedly went at him with taijutsu/weapon instead of ninjutsu and got obliterated easily? It was just a way to show how much stronger Itachi was compared to the rest of the Uchihas...and sadly, the clan will forever be discredited because they lost to one person and because some people can't seem to grasp the concept that if Itachi were truly the murderer, he might be pre-tty darn strong... *shrugs*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillage
No. Is there a reason to stay and fight Jiraiya? YES, their mission was to get Naruto.
Were they in a favorable situation at the "start" of the battle? No, they were indoors and stuck in Jiraiya's jutsu. The one closest to Naruto was Kisame; did Kisame nab Naruto on his way out? No, he didn't. Why not? He might be concerned about his own little life. Was the risk worth it to Kisame? No, his nabbing Naruto might have drawn some serious heat from Jiraiya. Was the risk worth it to Itachi? No, he was too tired already and wasn't interested to fight Jiraiya to begin with. Two out of two votes is majority vote, I'd say.


Note: unlike Lexander and DracoBattousai, I actually like Itachi as a character. ^_^
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Old 2004-05-22, 21:17   Link #63
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For those of you who think Itachi can wipe out Jiraiya so easily. LOok up a translation of the chapter when Itachi and Kisame were talking after the encounter. THey said something like at best we would draw. And things like that. I base that on 3 different translations manga and anime. Not exact words but all suggest that Itachi AND Kisame would put up a good fight with him but maybe not win.
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Old 2004-05-22, 21:21   Link #64
sarcasteak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unidentified
For those of you who think Itachi can wipe out Jiraiya so easily. LOok up a translation of the chapter when Itachi and Kisame were talking after the encounter. THey said something like at best we would draw. And things like that. I base that on 3 different translations manga and anime. Not exact words but all suggest that Itachi AND Kisame would put up a good fight with him but maybe not win.
Sadly, no one here is saying that "Itachi can wipe out Jiraiya so easily." What I am doing here is simply giving Itachi the credit he deserves and justifying why people will think he is strong (however I don't think this thread has any purpose; Sarutobi should win the vote without any contest since none of the other choices were shown at their prime or were shown at full power when they were alive). I am merely correcting this perception that Itachi retreated out of "fear" instead of "caution." There is a huge difference.
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Old 2004-05-23, 00:29   Link #65
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Well Itachi could "fear for his safety"

I think the main thing was, Itachi was tired, and fighting someone like Jiraiya who is just as powerful as himself, would not be a good idea. Therefore he left.

Oh btw, the silly little eye trick of Itachi, which supposedly can only be countered by another mange sharingan user. This made me wonder, now if Sasuke was to get the mange sharingan in the future, and than kill Itachi with it, now wouldn't this make Sasuke a God and have him be more powerful than Naruto and everyone else forever? That would just be plain retarded, and I think there are many other ways to defeating the mange sharingan.
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Old 2004-05-23, 00:50   Link #66
sarcasteak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hairydolphin
Well Itachi could "fear for his safety"
I'm really tired of this silly argument so I'll attempt to end it once and for all; if you guys still think anyone who retreats or doesn't finish people off is scared retarded...then more power to you.

"Strength" doesn't always determine the outcome of the battle. A slightly weaker opponent can easily defeat a stronger one in the right condition. He does not fear the stronger one at all for he knows he has a chance of winning. He proceeds with caution and strikes when favorable. However, if the situation actually starts off worse for the weaker one, then why take the risk? I'm not going to determine whether Itachi or Jiraiya is stronger (I actually said over and over again in the past that Jiraiya is stronger overall, but Itachi has triumph cards that tip things to his favor); I'm merely arguing that even if Jiraiya is superior and stronger, Itachi did not retreat out of fear but out of caution. There's a huge difference.

And as for not finishing people off or not dealing the final blow...my goodness, look at Kabuto vs Naruto? Why did he not just kill Naruto straight up? What a retard! Oro and Jiraiya...why were they just standing there on the snake instead of duking it out and beating each other senseless? Retards...these people should be cold-blooded and just kill kill kill.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hairydolphin
Oh btw, the silly little eye trick of Itachi, which supposedly can only be countered by another mange sharingan user. This made me wonder, now if Sasuke was to get the mange sharingan in the future, and than kill Itachi with it, now wouldn't this make Sasuke a God and have him be more powerful than Naruto and everyone else forever? That would just be plain retarded, and I think there are many other ways to defeating the mange sharingan.
Oh by the way, no one actually called Itachi a God; we simply don't know any loopholes or counter to Tsukiyomi if it hits. You can talk all you want about ways to avoid it, but once it hits, how can one counter? A world completely controlled by the user's will...and this user being the unmoving, emotionless Itachi. Since I simply have been told or shown of any counter, "undefeatable" is the only conclusion I can draw upon...or should I just make up a bunch of silly theories that have no basis? Yah, if you think about how hawt Itachi is while in the world of Tsukiyomi...you might actually enjoy the process and recover 25% chakra, yay-yay!

Now, to your point. If Sasuke actually gained the power to surpass Itachi, it most likely might be a spurt-of-moment thing. But if could maintain that level of ability and mastery of the Mangekyo Sharingan, then yes, we should start praising him as the poor man's version of Itachi--Sasuke is too emotional, cares too much about pride, stubborn, not as experienced, not as fast, and not as quick with handseals--but hey, all those things I just mentioned don't really matter since ninja battles are about nothing but strength vs strength, right?
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Old 2004-05-23, 01:46   Link #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasteak
Oh by the way, no one actually called Itachi a God; we simply don't know any loopholes or counter to Tsukiyomi if it hits. You can talk all you want about ways to avoid it, but once it hits, how can one counter? A world completely controlled by the user's will...and this user being the unmoving, emotionless Itachi. Since I simply have been told or shown of any counter, "undefeatable" is the only conclusion I can draw upon...or should I just make up a bunch of silly theories that have no basis? Yah, if you think about how hawt Itachi is while in the world of Tsukiyomi...you might actually enjoy the process and recover 25% chakra, yay-yay!
Here's the problem with this argument. There are quite a lot of moves that if you get hit once full bast, it's over.

Chidori (in the torso area) and Rasanga are just a few.

You might say that Kabuto survived Naruto's Rasanga but after that blast, he is pretty much crippled that had Naruto been in a slightly better condition, he can finish him off with ease.

So for quite a few moves, the only counter is to avoid it.

EPYON
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Old 2004-05-23, 07:41   Link #68
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People are forgetting that there is another way to counter mange sharingan. Gai said there was another way but no time to explain.
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Old 2004-05-23, 08:02   Link #69
Rasho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcasteak

Seeing how easily he supposedly wiped everyone to the floor, perhaps the latter batches would go all out because maybe just maybe without killing intention they would end up the same way? Again, everything we see is through Itachi's Tsukiyomi...he could've made up the whole incident! What really happened could've been something like this:
BUT, since we do NOT know what happened and all we have to rely on is the "silly lil eye trick" Itachi pulled on Sasuke, then I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt, eh?


Note: unlike Lexander and DracoBattousai, I actually like Itachi as a character. ^_^

Umm,im not sure if you were joking about the
Quote:
Again, everything we see is through Itachi's Tsukiyomi...he could've made up the whole incident! What really happened could've been something like this:...
if it were a joke(*really i couldnt' tell.*)


If it were Itachis' Tsukiyonami(*Is it just me or is Tsukiyonami hard to spell?Ne?*)
then,what happened to the rest of the Uchiha's bodies?
And if it were Itachis' trick,then wouldnt the rest of the Uchiha be alive?

(*Headache*)

=There are people who like Itachi as a character?!Unreal!!
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Old 2004-05-23, 08:05   Link #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realdeal
People are forgetting that there is another way to counter mange sharingan. Gai said there was another way but no time to explain.
(*Plz forgive me for mulitiple replies in a row on the same thread *)

I think what Gai meant was,there was a trick to depicting(?) a person's movement by looking at his nice wonderfull feet,not a way to counter the Mange Sharingan.(*Maybe being able to foretell(?)(?) the persons' movement by looking at his feet alone is the counter in itself?Hmmm...*)
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Old 2004-05-23, 08:09   Link #71
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Wow Sarcasteak bravo mate you are the only one defending Itachi here and shutting everybody up. Good job mate, but the funny thing is they won't understand it,they just don't get it that Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya. Heck Itachi is not even in his prime.
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Old 2004-05-23, 08:19   Link #72
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No ones being shut up. What evidence do we even have Itachi is stronger? Maybe you're the one who dosn't get it.

How do we know Jiraiya is in his prime? Hes 50, which is pretty old. You think what you want, I'll think what I want. Until we see proof, neither of us is RIGHT. So why don't you stop acting like that.
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Old 2004-05-23, 08:25   Link #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillage
No ones being shut up. What evidence do we even have Itachi is stronger? Maybe you're the one who dosn't get it.

How do we know Jiraiya is in his prime? Hes 50, which is pretty old. You think what you want, I'll think what I want. Until we see proof, neither of us is RIGHT. So why don't you stop acting like that.
Well,im not sure if we do have hard proof(*one of the reasons being i couldnt be bothered to spend my time think of it *)

But im pretty sure,Itachi Is stronger then the Perrvy-Senin(?)

Lets take them all back into the days when they were prime shall we?
(*Plz note im drawing the line of "prime" at when Orochimaru was in Akatsuki,
and when Jiraiya was,um,stronger then now *)

Taking into consideration that Orochimaru was the strongest of the Senin,and that he said himself that Itachi could chop him into little bits,proves that Itachi is stronger then Jiraiya.

(*sounds stupid,i know.*)
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Old 2004-05-23, 08:44   Link #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasho
(*Plz forgive me for mulitiple replies in a row on the same thread *)

I think what Gai meant was,there was a trick to depicting(?) a person's movement by looking at his nice wonderfull feet,not a way to counter the Mange Sharingan.(*Maybe being able to foretell(?)(?) the persons' movement by looking at his feet alone is the counter in itself?Hmmm...*)
Gai said he knows how to counter it, fight him just by looking at his feet.
Asuma says hes about the only one that can do it.
Gai says there is another way but no time to explain.

From what I can make out from that, theres another way to fight him other than just by looking at his feet.

Last edited by realdeal; 2004-05-23 at 10:22.
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Old 2004-05-23, 08:48   Link #75
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Read Naruo Manga Vol.16 again realdeal'
This time read it nice and slow.
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Old 2004-05-23, 08:49   Link #76
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When Sarutobi told Jiraiya he should be more like Orochimaru, they had just graduated to Genin, since Sarutobi gave them the bell test.

Now, if we look back at how Sasuke was stronger than Naruto during the bell test, which is obviously given to the ninjas that had just graduated, could we really say, Sasuke is and will forever be stronger than Naruto? No, its been about a year since then, and Naruto is already stronger. Plus, look at the parallels here. The Legendary 3 and Team 7 are almost exactly alike. So i take it as, at first Jiraiya was weaker, but became stronger just like Naruto and Sasuke. And, Oro will never admit his once weaker rival is stronger than him now, just like how Sasuke can't.

And do you really think, their growth rates stayed the same since they were 12? For all we know Jiraiya shot past Oro just like Naruto did to Sasuke.
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Old 2004-05-23, 08:59   Link #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillage
When Sarutobi told Jiraiya he should be more like Orochimaru, they had just graduated to Genin, since Sarutobi gave them the bell test.

Now, if we look back at how Sasuke was stronger than Naruto during the bell test, which is obviously given to the ninjas that had just graduated, could we really say, Sasuke is and will forever be stronger than Naruto? No, its been about a year since then, and Naruto is already stronger. Plus, look at the parallels here. The Legendary 3 and Team 7 are almost exactly alike. So i take it as, at first Jiraiya was weaker, but became stronger just like Naruto and Sasuke. And, Oro will never admit his once weaker rival is stronger than him now, just like how Sasuke can't.

And do you really think, their growth rates stayed the same since they were 12? For all we know Jiraiya shot past Oro just like Naruto did to Sasuke.
Orochimaru is stronger then Jiraiya.(*Its not just my opinion*)
Didnt you see the part in NarutoVol.19?When Orochimaru stated that,even though both of them were holding back,their difference in abilities was still there(or something along that line)
But you then could also say that,even Jiraiya 'lost' to Orochimaru,it still does not say much.(or something along that line*)
But then again,i myself am not too sure about the manga,for the version im reading is in chinese(btw,the translation is pin-point to the jap editions,although a few sentences were different form the Eng. versions.Thus,im not too sure about the part where Orochimaru bit Jiraiyas' neck and went "Something,something...Etc."
Because if i said im' absolutly correct,i cant really back that up,because the majority read the english versions,and i cant deny what Kishimoto-sama(*did i just say "-sama"?*)said.
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Old 2004-05-23, 09:13   Link #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasho
Taking into consideration that Orochimaru was the strongest of the Senin,and that he said himself that Itachi could chop him into little bits,proves that Itachi is stronger then Jiraiya.
Orochimarus toughts of beeing a strong ninja is how many jutsus you know, and that is why he said Itachi is stronger(Since he got the sharingaen and copyed loads already. And that is also the reason why Orochimaru wants Sasuke so badly).
And yes that was a stupid post, we have only seen Itachi run from Jiraiya with the shark guy. Not a real fight, and if "a" can beat "b" and "b" can beat "c" it doesn't mean that "a" can beat "c".
Thought I think Orochimaru and Jiraiya is on an equal line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine Devil
Wow Sarcasteak bravo mate you are the only one defending Itachi here and shutting everybody up. Good job mate, but the funny thing is they won't understand it,they just don't get it that Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya. Heck Itachi is not even in his prime.
Wtf are you talking about ? Doing a good job ? lol, I actually enjoy discussing with people, and it is not about to win. Your post was kinda useless, and it is not about they don't understand. It is about WE! don't know yet! We don't know so much about Itachi, so it is impossible to say for real. We have not seen Itachi beating up Jiraiya, but we have not seen him not fighting him for real either.

P.S: Jiraiya is 50 years old, so he aint in his prime either! so it is equal.
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Old 2004-05-23, 09:18   Link #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosen
Orochimarus toughts of beeing a strong ninja is how many jutsus you know, and that is why he said Itachi is stronger(Since he got the sharingaen and copyed loads already. And that is also the reason why Orochimaru wants Sasuke so badly).
And yes that was a stupid post, we have only seen Itachi run from Jiraiya with the shark guy. Not a real fight, and if "a" can beat "b" and "b" can beat "c" it doesn't mean that "a" can beat "c".
Though I think Orochimaru and Jiraiya is on an equal line.

Yes,you're right.If A can win B dont' mean B can beat C.(*Saying that just made my previous post completly useless didnt' it?*)
(*Opinion*)But then again,I think Orochimaru is better then Jiraiya.
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Old 2004-05-23, 09:20   Link #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosen
, I actually enjoy discussing with people, and it is not about to win. Your post was kinda useless, and it is not about they don't understand. It is about WE! don't know yet! We don't know so much about Itachi, so it is impossible to say for real. We have not seen Itachi beating up Jiraiya, but we have not seen him not fighting him for real either.


Yeah,you're right it is fun.

But,i just found it funny,that we people are argueing(?) about something which Kishimoto-san can change at the merest flick of his finger!!
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