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Old 2008-12-27, 22:43   Link #181
incorrupts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonae View Post
Wrong. He wanted a peaceful world for Nunnally. He wanted to live happily with her without the fear they will be used again. And to do that, he had to destroy something. He didn't strive to destroy for no reason. If destroying Britannia wasn't needed at the beginning, he wouldn't have done that. Your just putting it into simpler, more basic terms that are also vague.

Watch the last epis better. {Suzaku's talk to him, what Lulu said to C.C in #23}
Nunally was more of an excuse. He had deep hatred for Britania and his fate was to destroy and re-create the world in one way or the other. This does not mean he did not love Nunally and did not want a peaceful world for her. But his true intention, is being described in the preview for the last episode.
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Old 2008-12-27, 22:52   Link #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post

Watch the last epis better. {Suzaku's talk to him, what Lulu said to C.C in #23}
Nunally was more of an excuse. He had deep hatred for Britania and his fate was to destroy and re-create the world in one way or the other. This does not mean he did not love Nunally and did not want a peaceful world for her. But his true intention, is being described in the preview for the last episode.
I know. Lelouch did have a great hatred for Britannia, but Nunnally was more important. But you also said the beginning. The beginning to me is the first few episodes of the first season. Not the entire 1st season. Also, Lelouch lost that immediately when he found out Nunnally had been taken. (Once he finally believed C.C.)
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Old 2008-12-27, 23:11   Link #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostfire
Viletta never changed through Code Geass, she was and ended, as being a coniving schemer who ruined two peoples lives for her own self fulfillment. She did not change, and she is an example of a person who did not deserve what they were given.
It's not exactly about changing. I think it's clear; people are striving for happiness. Viletta is the same.

Quote:
Nina is more arguable, but she still deserves punishment for her actions. They cannot, or more should not, just be forgiven. That opens up a pandora's box for the world of law. And in reality, she did not learn anything. She never showed that she got past her hatred for the Japanese. She never showed that she moved past her fixation on the dead.
Actually, how would you know if she did not learn anything?
True, she never showed. But never showed does not equalize to it never happened.
It's also true that Nina shouldn't be forgiven just like that. But then again, whoever said that she was forgiven?

When you think it over, it's just about opinion you're arguing here.
Nogitsune thinks that Nina can be forgiven. You think not. Simple as that.

As for the grey philosophy we're all talking about, it's actually not about "When you're grey, you should be forgiven". That is an opinion, and if you say that it's unfair, then I am truly sorry. This world is never fair. If you're talking about the philosophy itself, the anime is grey because it portrays Lelouch, a character who would do almost everything to give what's best to his sister. He killed, but he also saved. He saved, but he also killed. So why is it that the Japanese like him, and Britannians are pissed? Because the Japanese are striving for their own happiness, for what's good for them. When it comes to Code Geass, being the weak(Japanese) doesn't imply that you're "white", and being strong(Britannian) doesn't imply you're "black".

They're all grey because they react and act based on what they believe in. They don't base their actions on moral beliefs. Take for instance: the Britannians think that they are superior over the Japanese, and thus treats them like slaves, and in an inhuman way. Why? Because they took over their country. However, if Britannians were only tourists in Japan, do you think that the Japanese would receive the very same treatment?
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Old 2008-12-28, 07:47   Link #184
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Just to mention, Nina is lesbian.
She fell in love with Euphy and then wanted to avenge her for the rest of the series.
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Old 2008-12-28, 08:07   Link #185
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Originally Posted by Neku View Post
It's not exactly about changing. I think it's clear; people are striving for happiness. Viletta is the same.



Actually, how would you know if she did not learn anything?
True, she never showed. But never showed does not equalize to it never happened.
It's also true that Nina shouldn't be forgiven just like that. But then again, whoever said that she was forgiven?

When you think it over, it's just about opinion you're arguing here.
Nogitsune thinks that Nina can be forgiven. You think not. Simple as that.

As for the grey philosophy we're all talking about, it's actually not about "When you're grey, you should be forgiven". That is an opinion, and if you say that it's unfair, then I am truly sorry. This world is never fair. If you're talking about the philosophy itself, the anime is grey because it portrays Lelouch, a character who would do almost everything to give what's best to his sister. He killed, but he also saved. He saved, but he also killed. So why is it that the Japanese like him, and Britannians are pissed? Because the Japanese are striving for their own happiness, for what's good for them. When it comes to Code Geass, being the weak(Japanese) doesn't imply that you're "white", and being strong(Britannian) doesn't imply you're "black".

They're all grey because they react and act based on what they believe in. They don't base their actions on moral beliefs. Take for instance: the Britannians think that they are superior over the Japanese, and thus treats them like slaves, and in an inhuman way. Why? Because they took over their country. However, if Britannians were only tourists in Japan, do you think that the Japanese would receive the very same treatment?
I don't like being told by the writer that someone has changed, I want to see that Nina has changed. I don't want to find out that she feels bad that instead of killing millions of Japanese she instead killed 10 million Britannians, and her actions caused the destruction of Pendragon.

As for the thing about Britannia tourist

Most likely the tourist would take over Japan and start massacring them. I mean its Britannia

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZingFreelancer View Post
Just to mention, Nina is lesbian.
She fell in love with Euphy and then wanted to avenge her for the rest of the series.
What the hell does that have anything to do with it? I don't give a free pass because someone's loved one died.
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Old 2008-12-28, 08:54   Link #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
I don't like being told by the writer that someone has changed, I want to see that Nina has changed. I don't want to find out that she feels bad that instead of killing millions of Japanese she instead killed 10 million Britannians, and her actions caused the destruction of Pendragon.
A bit like what happened with Lelouch then. We never actually seen him do any bad stuff after he took over the world, we only have word of mouth from average joes.

I'm a seeing is believing person and until i see Lelouch actually do any of that stuff i'm not buying it. The same holds true for Nina until i see that she actually has changed, she doesn't deserve a free pass(or any type of pass for that matter).

I mean for gods sake people seem to believe she deserves a free pass because she regrets what she did. By that logic Lelouch should get one too since he didn't manage to kill even 10% of those that she did and he clearly regretted alot of the things he did as illustrated by his live suicide show.


Really the end of CG, while both sad and entertaining, seems like of some horribly idyllic fantasy world compared to the rest of the show. Lelouch and Suzaku end up taking the rap and everyone else(not just Nina) gets a free pass. Its just so ridiculous. Everyone else gets some type of happy ending even though alot of them have done some type of horrible thing at one time or another or are just incompetent(looks at Ogi).
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Old 2008-12-28, 09:42   Link #187
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
This only applies to Nina in your mind cause if you set it as a general example, then this pretty much sets everyone wild-free to do anything he wants.
Not really, no.
I mentioned that it matters to me how likely it is that a change will be permanent. For example, I think the chances that Nina will build another Fleya are incredibly slim and will stay the same even if you go ahead and punish her. The same goes for most characters in Code Geass... I don't see C.C. creating a second Mao any time soon.
However, in real life there are very few people who change that thoroughly. And that's the main difference for me.

Quote:
All people are "grey'? Please, stop with this "grey" line.
I was talking about the general philosophy of Code Geass and how I understood it here.

Quote:
It is true that sometimes people do not actually want to cause bad things, but they do. And for this, there needs to be punishment.
Why?
Just because?

Quote:
If one does not feel the need to get "punished", in whatever that form is, then he is amoral.
If that's the case, then I don't have a problem with quite a few amoral people.
To me it's enough if someone truly wants to make up for his past mistakes and/or vows to himself that he will never repeat them.

Quote:
Redemption and remorse, only comes when you realize that you have to be punished. Otherwise, it is all preach.
That's your opinion.
To me, that sounds too much like Suzaku... I adore him, but constantly seeking punishment didn't make him a better person.

Quote:
And not everyone strive for happiness in Geass. For example, the main chara, strive for destroying something in the beginning, while the antagonist strive for a death to get him out of his burden. And the list goes on and on.
Sonae said it.
In the end of the first season, when C.C. reflects on everything that has happened, she talks about how she believes that every human being lives to chase happiness, and mentions Lelouch in this contxt. She also says something along the lines of: "Crimes and punishment, fate and judgment. What is obstructing us is the past we created. It is the hate between people." She muses about if this hatred is part of human nature and mentions that it is simply people's fate to judge others.
I always saw that as a very large part of the philosophy of Code Geass, no matter how one understands it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
How would it not do good here? One person commited a vile crime, or acted on a vilinous desire to commit Genocide, the result of her actions are the deaths of countless innocent people. You can't compare her to others, because others have not done commited the crime. You cannot just take away the crime and treat everyone equally, different crimes call for different measures of discipline.
That's your opinion.
I agree that something like that wouldn't work in real life, though - simply because you can't look into people's minds.

Quote:
If you give her a free pass, then you have to give everyone a free pass. You cannot excuse her by the idea that "she learned her lesson". You don't know if she did. You'd also have to give everyone else who "learned their lesson" a free pass, but how can you fairly judge such an abstract concept.
As I said, it wouldn't work in real life.
But to me, it became fairly clear that Nina has "learned her lesson" in the anime. The same goes for Lelouch.

Quote:
You let the system judge her, but by any realistic system that isn't biased against a side, would convict her to the same as the families.
Would it?
Because I can very well see some of the families slowly torturing her to death.

Quote:
I does not matter what she realized, she still commited the act. If I murder someone, only to then realize how wrong I was, would you give me a fair pass?
Let's just say that I probably wouldn't hold it against you if you truly had changed.

Quote:
That is a poor philosophy because people don't just "turn a new leaf of goodness". Viletta never changed through Code Geass, she was and ended, as being a coniving schemer who ruined two peoples lives for her own self fulfillment. She did not change, and she is an example of a person who did not deserve what they were given.
I don't really disagree with that, but this is where the "striving for happiness" part comes in.
Of course not everyone will change over night. But as long as Viletta doesn't go around killing little kittens, I have no problem with her getting away unpunished.
Then again, I'm usually not very judgmental when it comes to anime characters.

Quote:
Nina is more arguable, but she still deserves punishment for her actions.
Again, that's your opinion.

Quote:
They cannot, or more should not, just be forgiven. That opens up a pandora's box for the world of law.
I don't think it's a problem in the world Lelouch created. He gave people a fresh start, and that's all right with me.

Quote:
And in reality, she did not learn anything. She never showed that she got past her hatred for the Japanese. She never showed that she moved past her fixation on the dead.
Even though she didn't get nearly enough screen time, I got a completely different impression.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Neku View Post
It's not exactly about changing. I think it's clear; people are striving for happiness. Viletta is the same.
*nods her head*

Quote:
When you think it over, it's just about opinion you're arguing here.
Nogitsune thinks that Nina can be forgiven. You think not. Simple as that.
It's not even about forgiveness. More about... acceptance. Like what Lelouch and Suzaku probably had in the end, only less strong and a bit different.

Quote:
As for the grey philosophy we're all talking about, it's actually not about "When you're grey, you should be forgiven". That is an opinion, and if you say that it's unfair, then I am truly sorry. This world is never fair. If you're talking about the philosophy itself, the anime is grey because it portrays Lelouch, a character who would do almost everything to give what's best to his sister. He killed, but he also saved. He saved, but he also killed. So why is it that the Japanese like him, and Britannians are pissed? Because the Japanese are striving for their own happiness, for what's good for them. When it comes to Code Geass, being the weak(Japanese) doesn't imply that you're "white", and being strong(Britannian) doesn't imply you're "black".

They're all grey because they react and act based on what they believe in. They don't base their actions on moral beliefs. Take for instance: the Britannians think that they are superior over the Japanese, and thus treats them like slaves, and in an inhuman way. Why? Because they took over their country. However, if Britannians were only tourists in Japan, do you think that the Japanese would receive the very same treatment?
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Last edited by Nogitsune; 2008-12-28 at 10:15.
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Old 2008-12-28, 09:44   Link #188
bladeofdarkness
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being incompetent isnt actually a crime in itself
but since ougi was in a position of power (and is now in an even bigger one) then it might count
even more so when you remember that the reason he was left in power was that he led a mutany against the last leader (who was far from incompetent)
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Old 2008-12-28, 10:19   Link #189
ZeroSama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
being incompetent isnt actually a crime in itself
but since ougi was in a position of power (and is now in an even bigger one) then it might count
even more so when you remember that the reason he was left in power was that he led a mutany against the last leader (who was far from incompetent)
It was more to do with the fact that he was(and most likely still is) horribly indecisve, incompetent as well as now being ungrateful, yet some how he gets the top job in Japan and a hot wife to boot. If ever there's been a Wesley then Ogi is indeed the prime example.

Don't get me wrong i'm not saying he deserves a bad end, he just doesn't deserve the fabulous end he gets for simply being a nice guy.
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Old 2008-12-28, 10:44   Link #190
Neku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
I don't like being told by the writer that someone has changed, I want to see that Nina has changed. I don't want to find out that she feels bad that instead of killing millions of Japanese she instead killed 10 million Britannians, and her actions caused the destruction of Pendragon.
I never implied that Nina has changed. I only said that we don't know for sure whether Nina was really given the free pass you are refusing to give in the anime. Yes, she wasn't condemned. No, we don't know if everyone -in the anime- has forgiven her.

If you want to see to it that she has changed in the anime, I'd like to see to it too, that she was actually given the free pass because she felt bad in the anime.

Quote:
As for the thing about Britannia tourist

Most likely the tourist would take over Japan and start massacring them. I mean its Britannia
Yes. The tourists did.
But before they did, they did not called the Japanese Elevens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune
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Old 2008-12-28, 13:58   Link #191
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
To me, that sounds too much like Suzaku... I adore him, but constantly seeking punishment didn't make him a better person.
Yeah well, technically no one became a better person in the end of Geass. People stayed pretty much the same. Only the people that got the meaning of ZR acquired the knowledge to protect and ensure a bright future. If this makes someone better, then it was only Kallen, Suzaku, Nunally. {and C.C} All the others stayed the same, with a happy ending delivered to their silver plate and frankly, i see no reason for them to get better anyway.
And about Suzaku, his moment in 18, showed he strive for atonement. True, this does not make someone better but still, he held a moral ground, acknowledging that at times, yes, you have to be punished. At least this shows that there might be a small sign of justice, some small measure of hope for the possibility of meaning.

As for the rest of your reply, i am not gonna bother to reply. It seems to me, you think that discipline and punishment is an illusion cause apparently people that "change" and "regret" their actions, need a free pass. Sure.
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Old 2008-12-28, 14:10   Link #192
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Originally Posted by Neku View Post
It's not exactly about changing. I think it's clear; people are striving for happiness. Viletta is the same.
Irrelevant what she was seeking. Even the most vile criminal can be seeking happiness through his actions, does that mean we should forgive and forget his crimes because "all he wanted was a little happiness"? An absurd idea.

Viletta striving for happiness is a moot point if it is an attempt to cover the fact that she was a schemer who very much so, did not deserve what she was given. People who step over others for their own happiness, especially innocent people (see: Shirley), do not deserve what she was given.

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Originally Posted by Neku View Post
Actually, how would you know if she did not learn anything?
True, she never showed. But never showed does not equalize to it never happened.
It's also true that Nina shouldn't be forgiven just like that. But then again, whoever said that she was forgiven?
How would you know she did? If she never shows it, who are you to say she did?

Who are you to say who has or has not learned a lesson? If a criminal commits a crime who are you to judge on such an impractical, opinionated, unfair basis as "I think they learned their lesson"? If you are going to give one Genocidal maniac the free pass for "having learned their lesson" you may as well give every Genocidal maniac the same treatment because if you imply this kind of law system, everyone will claim to have learned their lesson... and then piss on your shoes.

Quote:
When you think it over, it's just about opinion you're arguing here.
Nogitsune thinks that Nina can be forgiven. You think not. Simple as that.
I've had an epiphany... and I'm not going to tell you.

Point of the matter here is not a conflict of opinion, it is a conflict of realistic expectations and an understanding of justice. Nogitsune is spitting on the idea of fair justice because giving people "a free pass" is not fair judgement nor justice it is partial, it is based on ones opinions and perceptions. This is not fair, simple.

There are reasons why one person is not allowed to judge the fate of another in a civilized court of law that isn't run by a dictator. You cannot let opinions sway matters on justice, this is a case of justice. Nina commited a crime, and she needs to be judged by an impartial system not someone's opinion on life's lessons.

Quote:
As for the grey philosophy we're all talking about, it's actually not about "When you're grey, you should be forgiven". That is an opinion, and if you say that it's unfair, then I am truly sorry. This world is never fair. If you're talking about the philosophy itself, the anime is grey because it portrays Lelouch, a character who would do almost everything to give what's best to his sister. He killed, but he also saved. He saved, but he also killed. So why is it that the Japanese like him, and Britannians are pissed? Because the Japanese are striving for their own happiness, for what's good for them. When it comes to Code Geass, being the weak(Japanese) doesn't imply that you're "white", and being strong(Britannian) doesn't imply you're "black".
LoL. You brought in "the world is not fair", no kidding. The world is not fair but that is why there is a justice system established to try and be fair. There is not one person going around judging people based on "they learned their lesson" or not.

Lelouch is a poor example for your point, a very poor example, because he was seeking his judgement. He was not hiding behind any veils of "I learned" he was ready to accept his punishment and welcomed it at the end. Where does Nina do this? I only remember her crying over the deaths of Britannians.

Quote:
They're all grey because they react and act based on what they believe in. They don't base their actions on moral beliefs. Take for instance: the Britannians think that they are superior over the Japanese, and thus treats them like slaves, and in an inhuman way. Why? Because they took over their country. However, if Britannians were only tourists in Japan, do you think that the Japanese would receive the very same treatment?
They are not all grey. Please. What is grey about Luciano? What is grey about Charles? What is grey about a lot of characters? Nothing.

Your example of tourism vs. a war occupied zone is terrible. It shows nothing. The Birtannians attacked Japan and conquered it. They were the tourists, and then they took over the country. You can't just apply completely seperate scenarios and say "these people are grey because in this COMPLETELY DIFFERENT scenerio they would act differently." No wayyy! You don't say!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune
That's your opinion.
To me, that sounds too much like Suzaku... I adore him, but constantly seeking punishment didn't make him a better person.
Way to completely miss the point. (And I know its my opinion, I posted it. If you have an actual point to bring up to counter my opinion then say such, don't just dismiss my points on such a frivalous concept as this.)

This isn't about seeking punishment and having a martyr complex, ala Suzaku, this about being judged fairly and recieving the punishment one is deserving. Nina does not have to be Suzaku, but she deserves to be put in court for her actions and judged accordingly. Nothing like Suzaku.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune
Sonae said it.
In the end of the first season, when C.C. reflects on everything that has happened, she talks about how she believes that every human being lives to chase happiness, and mentions Lelouch in this contxt. She also says something along the lines of: "Crimes and punishment, fate and judgment. What is obstructing us is the past we created. It is the hate between people." She muses about if this hatred is part of human nature and mentions that it is simply people's fate to judge others.
I always saw that as a very large part of the philosophy of Code Geass, no matter how one understands it.
And? Did you miss the "Crimes and Punishment, Fate and Judgement" part? Where did Nina recieve her punishment? She hated the Japanese, she aspired to everything that is against what C.C. mused. We are to forgive her because she "felt bad about it"? What about the "Crimes and Punishment, Fate and Judgement" that C.C. was talking about?

Where is Viletta's punishment for ruining Shirley's life? For lying? For conspiring against someone who meant good for the world all for her own self-satisfaction? What was her punishment? Getting pregnant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune
That's your opinion.
I agree that something like that wouldn't work in real life, though - simply because you can't look into people's minds.
You don't say...
And how can you see into Nina's mind? Are you Mao? Do you have a mind reading Geass?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune
As I said, it wouldn't work in real life.
But to me, it became fairly clear that Nina has "learned her lesson" in the anime. The same goes for Lelouch.
You must have missed the fact that Lelouch paid for his crimes, even if he learned his lesson. Where did Nina pay? I must have missed her being put on Tribunal. The fact that this does not work in real life, should be a clue to you that there is something wrong when you are applying real opinions and philosophies to the concept.

Quote:
Would it?
Because I can very well see some of the families slowly torturing her to death.
And I can see her punishment being execution. The only different here is torture vs. just being killed outright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune
Let's just say that I probably wouldn't hold it against you if you truly had changed.


Quote:
I don't really disagree with that, but this is where the "striving for happiness" part comes in.
Of course not everyone will change over night. But as long as Viletta doesn't go around killing little kittens, I have no problem with her getting away unpunished.
Then again, I'm usually not very judgmental when it comes to anime characters.
So the fact that, over the course of the two years the show took place over, she did not turn a new lead, you think that somehow or for some reason she's going to now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune
Again, that's your opinion.
No kidding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune
I don't think it's a problem in the world Lelouch created. He gave people a fresh start, and that's all right with me.
And the reason he had to die to give people their fresh start is because of people like Viletta ruining his life. You are basically arguing that two wrongs make a right... ya, they don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune
Even though she didn't get nearly enough screen time, I got a completely different impression.
Oh that's nice.
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Old 2008-12-28, 15:21   Link #193
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
You must have missed the fact that Lelouch paid for his crimes, even if he learned his lesson. Where did Nina pay? I must have missed her being put on Tribunal. The fact that this does not work in real life, should be a clue to you that there is something wrong when you are applying real opinions and philosophies to the concept.
There was no need for that because Lelouch Christ took on the world's sins and hatred and died for them so that everyone can live in sunshine and lollipop land and fart rainbows.
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Old 2008-12-28, 15:31   Link #194
Charred Knight
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Originally Posted by ZeroSama View Post
A bit like what happened with Lelouch then. We never actually seen him do any bad stuff after he took over the world, we only have word of mouth from average joes.

I'm a seeing is believing person and until i see Lelouch actually do any of that stuff i'm not buying it. The same holds true for Nina until i see that she actually has changed, she doesn't deserve a free pass(or any type of pass for that matter).

I mean for gods sake people seem to believe she deserves a free pass because she regrets what she did. By that logic Lelouch should get one too since he didn't manage to kill even 10% of those that she did and he clearly regretted alot of the things he did as illustrated by his live suicide show.


Really the end of CG, while both sad and entertaining, seems like of some horribly idyllic fantasy world compared to the rest of the show. Lelouch and Suzaku end up taking the rap and everyone else(not just Nina) gets a free pass. Its just so ridiculous. Everyone else gets some type of happy ending even though alot of them have done some type of horrible thing at one time or another or are just incompetent(looks at Ogi).

I have made known how much I hate how badly written the last episode of Code Geass is, Okouchi set it up from Lelouch's side, but then never sets it up from the Britannian side. Sure Okouchi can claim that if we saw Code Geass from the Britannian side that maybe the Britannians don't look so bad and Lelouch looks evil, but considering how Britannian are clearly the villains, and how anytime more than 10 seconds is spent on a Britannian than unless your a KoR you are going to Kick the Dog I don't see how. He basically ignores what happened the previous 49 episodes like how Nunnaly, and Schneizel blew up Pendragon, and Schneizel helped blow up Tokyo, and how Britannians are facist, so its kind of hard to take anything Okouchi says about philosophy as serious.

If his trying to tell us that humans strive for happiness, what he actually gets across is that the strive for happiness will only cause great harm for most people, as only the chosen few such as Ougi ever receive happiness.

Last edited by Charred Knight; 2008-12-28 at 15:47.
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Old 2008-12-28, 15:52   Link #195
incorrupts
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
They are not all grey. Please. What is grey about Luciano? What is grey about Charles? What is grey about a lot of characters? Nothing.
His hair.

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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
And the reason he had to die to give people their fresh start is because of people like Viletta ruining his life. You are basically arguing that two wrongs make a right... ya, they don't.
Thank you. Why the hell people think that Lelouch pressed the restart-button for everyone? Um, no. Lelouch was NEVER Mother Theresa. You think if he had a chance he would not screw Viletta's life or someone else, that screwed him in the ass? He just did not care about them.
He wanted a peaceful world, for the people he really loved and cared. His sister, his Zero-buddy, Kallen and C.C
Those were the people Lelouch really cared for in the end. {and we might as well count those that were loyal to him in his final moments as well}
He could not give a crap about anyone else but his atonement just had to include everyone's sins otherwise it would not work.
Technically speaking, he died like Jesus-style.
Realistically, he had to die like this in order to ensure a future for his loved ones.

And if we want to play ball on the moral-ground, yes, Lelouch did deserve to die in the end for all the atrocities he commited. A lot of them came from special circumstances but this can't be used as justification. At least, he acknowledged all his shit and found a way to work it out for him and his closed people.
But you can't help but be kinda annoyed in the end, when people that did nuthing-as-in-crap-ruining-lifes-around, get the smile-cheese end. But oh well, long live Lulu i guess.
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Old 2008-12-28, 16:33   Link #196
azul120
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post

But you can't help but be kinda annoyed in the end, when people that did nuthing-as-in-crap-ruining-lifes-around, get the smile-cheese end. But oh well, long live Lulu i guess.
You mean as in the people who never did have to pay for what they did?

Lol, sort of reminds me of the Futurama episode where Bender is all "YAY CLOSURE!" after finally getting nailed for his cigar theft at the very end, only without the "closure" part.
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Old 2008-12-28, 17:06   Link #197
Xander
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Do people always pay for what they've done in real life? Absolutely not.

Life isn't fair, so from that point of view I don't have a problem with some characters getting better endings than what they deserve. Lelouch wanted a better tomorrow for everyone, including but not limited to those who deserve it. I think that's not a huge leap of logic.

Both Tokyo and the Britannian capital were essentially wiped off the face of the Earth, the world's powers are exhausted from the recent wars. I think that's, if anything, the only environment in which things could reasonably begin to improve. The world might not be perfect, but at least it's on the path to a period of reconciliation.

The audience may dislike Ougi, but he is essentially a figurehead for the Black Knights, who are very popular in Japan and thus it's not unrealistic for him to be elected as PM with such a great vehicle to gather support. He doesn't need to be a genius to accomplish that much nor prove especially capable. Think about incompetent or even corrupt real life politicians if you want.

In the case of Nina, the people who know of her research should be few, and those who know that she was actively urging the weapon's use should be even fewer. I don't think the Ashford crew, in particular, knows that much and would in any case still be willing to protect her as a friend.
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Old 2008-12-28, 17:09   Link #198
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
Yeah well, technically no one became a better person in the end of Geass. People stayed pretty much the same. Only the people that got the meaning of ZR acquired the knowledge to protect and ensure a bright future. If this makes someone better, then it was only Kallen, Suzaku, Nunally. {and C.C} All the others stayed the same, with a happy ending delivered to their silver plate and frankly, i see no reason for them to get better anyway.
I disagree, but since that's really a matter of interpretation, I won't argue about it here.

Quote:
And about Suzaku, his moment in 18, showed he strive for atonement. True, this does not make someone better but still, he held a moral ground, acknowledging that at times, yes, you have to be punished. At least this shows that there might be a small sign of justice, some small measure of hope for the possibility of meaning.
So if Suzaku had decided to fight against Britannia in order to set things right again, without giving punishment much thought, he would automatically have been an amoral person?

Quote:
As for the rest of your reply, i am not gonna bother to reply. It seems to me, you think that discipline and punishment is an illusion cause apparently people that "change" and "regret" their actions, need a free pass. Sure.
Yes, punishment is indeed an illusion to me if it doesn't do anything good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
LoL. You brought in "the world is not fair", no kidding. The world is not fair but that is why there is a justice system established to try and be fair. There is not one person going around judging people based on "they learned their lesson" or not.
And of course our solution for this problem is perfect.
...Never doubt the system.

Quote:
Lelouch is a poor example for your point, a very poor example, because he was seeking his judgement. He was not hiding behind any veils of "I learned" he was ready to accept his punishment and welcomed it at the end.
In my opinion, Lelouch was just being selfish there.
It was even officially stated that it was mainly a matter of pride for him, and I really don't see what a punishment that is self-inflicted and can be considered a "happy ending" for the person in question has to do with justice.

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Where does Nina do this? I only remember her crying over the deaths of Britannians.
I thought she was crying over everyone who died because of Fleya, but... well, R2 wasn't perfect, so this is once again a matter of interpretation.

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They are not all grey. Please. What is grey about Luciano? What is grey about Charles? What is grey about a lot of characters? Nothing.
I don't know about Luciano (not enough screen time), but Charles thought he was doing the world a favour. That definitely makes him "grey" in my book.


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Way to completely miss the point.
...Likewise.

Quote:
(And I know its my opinion, I posted it. If you have an actual point to bring up to counter my opinion then say such, don't just dismiss my points on such a frivalous concept as this.)
I already mentioned that I have a different opinion and why.
However, you make it sound like everything I say has been proven false centuries ago.

Quote:
This isn't about seeking punishment and having a martyr complex, ala Suzaku, this about being judged fairly and recieving the punishment one is deserving. Nina does not have to be Suzaku, but she deserves to be put in court for her actions and judged accordingly. Nothing like Suzaku.
Why should someone want to be punished if they can just try to make up for their mistakes instead and help people who need it? Because that makes them moral?
I just don't see the logic in that.
Not to mention that it would be fun to send Nina to court. As someone pointed out to me, she only developed Fleya, and inventing something - however dangerous - wouldn't even be a crime in real life.

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And? Did you miss the "Crimes and Punishment, Fate and Judgement" part?
C.C. said that those things existed, not that they are a good thing.

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There did Nina recieve her punishment? She hated the Japanese, she aspired to everything that is against what C.C. mused. We are to forgive her because she "felt bad about it"? What about the "Crimes and Punishment, Fate and Judgement" that C.C. was talking about?
Again, Nina invented something, but as far as I remember, she never used it herself. I don't think an unbiased court would be able to do much to her.
Everything else I could say to this would be nothing more than repeating myself.

Quote:
Where is Viletta's punishment for ruining Shirley's life? For lying? For conspiring against someone who meant good for the world all for her own self-satisfaction? What was her punishment? Getting pregnant?
Again, C.C. never said punishment was a good thing. Just that it is a part of the world we live in and is connected to hatred.

Quote:
You don't say...
And how can you see into Nina's mind? Are you Mao? Do you have a mind reading Geass?
No, but luckily, anime characters are much more easy to read than real people. And even if you missjudge them, it won't hurt anyone.

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You must have missed the fact that Lelouch paid for his crimes, even if he learned his lesson.
He paid for his crimes... and decided the price himself.
I think that says it all.

Quote:
Where did Nina pay? I must have missed her being put on Tribunal. The fact that this does not work in real life, should be a clue to you that there is something wrong when you are applying real opinions and philosophies to the concept.
Our society needs the concept of punishment so that people don't think they can do everything they want.
But if you let someone who has truly changed go some time after he commited the crime and don't give people the impression that this wasn't a very rare occurence, it wouldn't kill anyone.

Quote:
And I can see her punishment being execution. The only different here is torture vs. just being killed outright.
Wait.
Since when are scientists executed for inventing something?
Not to mention that there is a difference between a quick, clean and a slow, painful death.

Quote:
So the fact that, over the course of the two years the show took place over, she did not turn a new lead, you think that somehow or for some reason she's going to now?
Errr... she's become a housewife with a Japanese husband and a half Japanese child. I think that shows how much she changed.
But we'll never know.

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And the reason he had to die to give people their fresh start is because of people like Viletta ruining his life. You are basically arguing that two wrongs make a right... ya, they don't.
I think we're not getting anywhere here...

Quote:
Oh that's nice.
Yes, isn't it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post

His hair.


Thank you. Why the hell people think that Lelouch pressed the restart-button for everyone? Um, no. Lelouch was NEVER Mother Theresa.
I'm not saying that Lelouch took the sins of the world away and made them magically vanish. Only that he gave people the chance to move past them.

Quote:
You think if he had a chance he would not screw Viletta's life or someone else, that screwed him in the ass? He just did not care about them.
Lelouch even said himself that Zero Requiem was for the sake of the whole world.

Quote:
He wanted a peaceful world, for the people he really loved and cared. His sister, his Zero-buddy, Kallen and C.C
Nunally was "dead" when Lelouch put his plan in motion.
But yes, his loved ones - including his friends at Ashford and those who had already died - were probably his main motivation.

Quote:
He could not give a crap about anyone else but his atonement just had to include everyone's sins otherwise it would not work.
Lelouch even said himself that the path he chose was not "logical" and that there were other options.
So yes, it was matter of pride(/atonement), but also something he wanted to do for the people in general.
However, I'm not saying he was selfless - quite the opposite, in fact.
And if it hadn't been for his loved ones, he probably wouldn't have given the fate of the world much thought.
Nunally was always his main motivation and shaped his own believes. So did some other people.

Quote:
And if we want to play ball on the moral-ground, yes, Lelouch did deserve to die in the end for all the atrocities he commited.
I disagree.
But... we're really not getting anywhere here.

Quote:
A lot of them came from special circumstances but this can't be used as justification. At least, he acknowledged all his shit and found a way to work it out for him and his closed people.
It was never about justification for me.
I just don't get why someone "deserves" something bad if it won't help anyone.

Quote:
But you can't help but be kinda annoyed in the end, when people that did nuthing-as-in-crap-ruining-lifes-around, get the smile-cheese end. But oh well, long live Lulu i guess.
For once, I don't disagree.
Still, the end would have been perfectly fine with me if Ougi and the others had at least known that they did something wrong by betraying Lelouch.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander View Post
Do people always pay for what they've done in real life? Absolutely not.

Life isn't fair, so from that point of view I don't have a problem with some characters getting better endings than what they deserve. Lelouch wanted a better tomorrow for everyone, including but not limited to those who deserve it.

Both Tokyo and the Britannian capital were essentially wiped off the face of the Earth, the world's powers are exhausted from the recent wars. I think that's, if anything, the only environment in which things could reasonably begin to improve. The world might not be perfect, but at least it's on the path to a period of reconciliation.

The audience may dislike Ougi, but he is essentially a figurehead for the Black Knights, who are very popular in Japan and thus it's not unrealistic for him to be elected as PM with such a great vehicle to gather support. He doesn't need to be a genius to accomplish that much nor prove especially capable. Think about incompetent or even corrupt real life politicians if you want.

In the case of Nina, the people who know of her research should be few, and those who know that she was urging the weapon's use should be even fewer. I don't think the Ashford crew, in particular, knows that much and would in any case be willing to protect her as a friend.
I think I'll sign this.
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Old 2008-12-28, 17:29   Link #199
Frostfire
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
And of course our solution for this problem is perfect.
...Never doubt the system.
Irrelevant. I never said the system was perfect, but it is easily better than your arbitrary grade of "they learned their lesson, let them try again". This is fundamentally against what children are taught by their parents. Law and punishment for crimes is what keeps societies functioning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
In my opinion, Lelouch was just being selfish there.
It was even officially stated that it was mainly a matter of pride for him, and I really don't see what a punishment that is self-inflicted and can be considered a "happy ending" for the person in question has to do with justice.
Matter of pride or not, Lelouch received his judgement and paid his price. You do not call what Lelouch received a happy ending, maybe a satisfactory ending (as the staff called it) but not happy.

Nina... not so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I thought she was crying over everyone who died because of Fleya, but... well, R2 wasn't perfect, so this is once again a matter of interpretation.
I'm pretty sure the only people she killed were Britannians, or mostly. She was looking at Britannian names while crying no less. 1 + 1 = She killed Britannians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I don't know about Luciano (not enough screen time), but Charles thought he was doing the world a favour. That definitely makes him "grey" in my book.
Really? Then Hitler was grey in your book? Because, frankly, he thought killing the Jews was good for the world too. I'm pretty sure if you say that to someone they will just punch you in the face.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I already mentioned that I have a different opinion and why.
However, you make it sound like everything I say has been proven false centuries ago.
Hammurabi's Code of Law was established in 1760 BC. Try, millenia ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Why should someone want to be punished if they can just try to make up for their mistakes instead and help people who need it? Because that makes them moral?
I just don't see the logic in that.
Not to mention that it would be fun to send Nina to court. As someone pointed out to me, she only developed Fleya, and inventing something - however dangerous - wouldn't even be a crime in real life.
That makes them moral? How about it makes them apologetic. Moral would be if they realized this BEFORE they did it. Not after the fact. Nina was the one who insisted on its use, this is not comparible to say the Manhattan project, this is more comparible to the Nazis where the doctors thought up various things to "test" to "better humanity" and had others do it for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
C.C. said that those things existed, not that they are a good thing.
Those things make the world run...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Again, Nina invented something, but as far as I remember, she never used it herself. I don't think an unbiased court would be able to do much to her.
Everything else I could say to this would be nothing more than repeating myself.
No, she only insisted it be used. She's very innocent, you know, because she had no way to pull the trigger she made someone else do it for her. Really makes her innocent... oh wait, it doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Again, C.C. never said punishment was a good thing. Just that it is a part of the world we live in and is connected to hatred.
You basically want to say that you think a world without punishment would work? It is a neccessary evil, I am pretty sure that is implied in C.C.'s speach, because you know, Lelouch was the neccessary evil to fix the world. Recurring themes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
No, but luckily, anime characters are much more easy to read than real people. And even if you missjudge them, it won't hurt anyone.
I see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
He paid for his crimes... and decided the price himself.
I think that says it all.
Yes, he paid the price. Nina did not. It does say it all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Our society needs the concept of punishment so that people don't think they can do everything they want.
But if you let someone who has truly changed go some time after he commited the crime and don't give people the impression that this wasn't a very rare occurence, it wouldn't kill anyone.
And how are you going to judge, who truly did learn a leasson and who did not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Wait.
Since when are scientists executed for inventing something?
Not to mention that there is a difference between a quick, clean and a slow, painful death.
World History 101, Nazi Germany.

... Oh and she was trying to use it. And she was going to... She may not have pulled the trigger, but she coarsed it.

I am pretty sure any family would actually just want her shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Errr... she's become a housewife with a Japanese husband and a half Japanese child. I think that shows how much she changed.
But we'll never know.
Pretty sure that shows nothing about her character deep down.

I'm going to stop here, a lot of circles are forming.
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Old 2008-12-28, 18:59   Link #200
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
Irrelevant. I never said the system was perfect, but it is easily better than your arbitrary grade of "they learned their lesson, let them try again". This is fundamentally against what children are taught by their parents. Law and punishment for crimes is what keeps societies functioning.
I never disagreed with the last part.

Quote:
Matter of pride or not, Lelouch received his judgement and paid his price. You do not call what Lelouch received a happy ending, maybe a satisfactory ending (as the staff called it) but not happy.
Didn't the staff also say that it was for us to decide if it is a "happy" or a "sad" ending?
And I'd say Lelouch got his personal happy ending. Not perfect, but happy.
The ones who really suffered because of Zero Requiem were his loved ones (like Nunally), not him.
The life Lelouch lead was much more of a "punishment" for him than his death.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure the only people she killed were Britannians, or mostly. She was looking at Britannian names while crying no less. 1 + 1 = She killed Britannians.
Maybe, but that's merely what brought her back to reality. After that, she changed quite a bit.

Quote:
Really? Then Hitler was grey in your book? Because, frankly, he thought killing the Jews was good for the world too. I'm pretty sure if you say that to someone they will just punch you in the face.
Saying that someone is grey doesn't mean that he isn't a petty little bastard.

Quote:
Hammurabi's Code of Law was established in 1760 BC. Try, millenia ago.
That doesn't prove me wrong.

Quote:
That makes them moral? How about it makes them apologetic. Moral would be if they realized this BEFORE they did it. Not after the fact. Nina was the one who insisted on its use, this is not comparible to say the Manhattan project, this is more comparible to the Nazis where the doctors thought up various things to "test" to "better humanity" and had others do it for them.
How many people can prove that?
If you want to punish Nina, you would probably have to go against the law.

Quote:
Those things make the world run...
Just because something is needed doesn't mean it is good.

Quote:
No, she only insisted it be used. She's very innocent, you know, because she had no way to pull the trigger she made someone else do it for her. Really makes her innocent... oh wait, it doesn't.
I never said that makes her innocent.
Just difficult to punish her by legal means.

Quote:
You basically want to say that you think a world without punishment would work?
You were the one who brought up real life. I was only saying that I have no problem with characters in Code Geass going unpunished, and tried to explain my views.

Quote:
It is a neccessary evil, I am pretty sure that is implied in C.C.'s speach, because you know, Lelouch was the neccessary evil to fix the world. Recurring themes.
I don't disagree.

Quote:
And how are you going to judge, who truly did learn a leasson and who did not?
In an anime? Usually not that difficult.
In real life? Impossibe.
But that's what I said.

Quote:
World History 101, Nazi Germany.

... Oh and she was trying to use it. And she was going to... She may not have pulled the trigger, but she coarsed it.
But finding reliable witnisses for that would be rather difficult.

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I am pretty sure any family would actually just want her shot.
Yes, but that's still what you call lynching someone.

Quote:
I'm going to stop here, a lot of circles are forming.
I agree, let's leave it at that.
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