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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi?
The 1st 24 5.99%
The 2nd 3 0.75%
Sarutobi 117 29.18%
The 4th 119 29.68%
Jiraiya 27 6.73%
Orochimaru 10 2.49%
Tsunde 4 1.00%
Itachi 73 18.20%
Other...[Please State Who] 24 5.99%
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2004-05-23, 16:50   Link #121
nh1
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The words by Kakashi would be: That is an incredibly fast jutsu speed... My eyes can't even keep up with him!
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Old 2004-05-23, 16:57   Link #122
Chosen
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Ah, k I totally forgot that ;(
I always thought that he was not able to see his jutsu because of the shurikens! So I apologize devil!
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Old 2004-05-23, 16:58   Link #123
_Riku_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosen
Actually you are the one that should watch the episode again, the reason Kakashi could not see his jutsu was because Itachi used some Shurikens to distract him.


eeeh?? no.....
he couldn't even react, plus as nine devil says, everyone said that hÝs jutsus are fast

Spoiler:
look
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Old 2004-05-23, 17:04   Link #124
Chosen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Riku_
eeeh?? no.....
he couldn't even react, plus as nine devil says, everyone said that hÝs jutsus are fast
Yes, I know I was wrong. :P Just read the post right over you
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Old 2004-05-23, 17:19   Link #125
_Riku_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosen
Yes, I know I was wrong. :P Just read the post right over you
lol, yeah I thought that was weird, since I couldn't even see his hand seals, and I was not distracted...
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Old 2004-05-23, 17:54   Link #126
Nine Devil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosen
Ah, k I totally forgot that ;(
I always thought that he was not able to see his jutsu because of the shurikens! So I apologize devil!
Np mate it can happen. Everything okey again?
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Old 2004-05-23, 18:28   Link #127
hokagenaruto3
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Question...

How long would a battle between Kakashi and Jiraiya take?
Longer or shorter?
My point is, that Itachi's justu speed and overall strenght were measured against :
kakashi:Elite Jounin
Kurenai:New Jounin
Asuma...?) Jounin
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Old 2004-05-23, 19:58   Link #128
snarl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcasteak
Here's the thing; all those moves are either extremely closed-range or single-target based whereas the limit to the gaze of an eye is relatively wide.
Theres a difference between eye gaze and eye contact. Mange needs contact, not just the gaze from Itachi... just like chidori needs body contact to hurt. Therefore mange is useless if you can avoid it. The black flame is probably better, if it in fact can hit persons.
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Old 2004-05-24, 00:28   Link #129
nukunuku
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itachi is the best, he is a crazy ass cracka who can kill everyone! even orochimaru. naruto is about(if not stronger) than the level of gaara, sasuke is weaker then naruto, kakashi dosent do that much in the manga anymore, what im saying is that the giant ass frog could kill everyone and squish itachi. if not then itachi would kill everyone becuz he has a gun! haku is pretty.
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Old 2004-05-24, 00:30   Link #130
nukunuku
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wait! who is sarutobi again?
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Old 2004-05-24, 00:32   Link #131
DracoBattousai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nukunuku
itachi is the best, he is a crazy ass cracka who can kill everyone! even orochimaru. naruto is about(if not stronger) than the level of gaara, sasuke is weaker then naruto, kakashi dosent do that much in the manga anymore, what im saying is that the giant ass frog could kill everyone and squish itachi. if not then itachi would kill everyone becuz he has a gun! haku is pretty.
Extremely presumptuous aren't we?

Itachi Fanboy/girl (either one works) Alert!

And Sarutobi is the 3rd Hokage. Also, don't double post, just edit the previous one.
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Old 2004-05-24, 00:49   Link #132
sarcasteak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snarl
Theres a difference between eye gaze and eye contact.
Uhh...you know that gaze means look steadily or stare, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by snarl
Mange needs contact, not just the gaze from Itachi...
Since your words make little sense, I'm going to assume you meant that Itachi needs to concentrate his eyes on the victims' eyes, not just in the general direction. If that's what you were trying to say...then says who? As long as the two eyes meet even for a split second, that is eye contact whether intentionally or not. From that fight we've seen against the jounins, if Itachi has to look in one specific person's eyes, then why did Kakashi tell all three of them to close their eyes? Shouldn't there be an opening the moment Itachi stares into one person's eyes? That supports my interpretation that as long as his eye sight grazed the targets', they're caught.
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Old 2004-05-24, 00:50   Link #133
nukunuku
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oh, my bad! i'll try and remember that, sarutobi is the old guy eh? he is about the level of orichimaru and itachi can kill orichimaru so itachi is still the best! he is bad-ass, i mean his b1tch is a shark! you cant top that? well sarutobi had a monkey and monkeys are cool. ohi dont know what to think anymore!
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Old 2004-05-24, 00:56   Link #134
lgma
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My vote is for Yondaime, even though not much is said about him.
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Old 2004-05-24, 01:42   Link #135
Skyro
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I think Sarutobi should win this vote no contest if we are considering them in their primes.

Anyway, was it just me or was the mange sharingan just an advanced genjutsu move, like the one that flute girl (from the 4 sound) did to Shikamaru? It shares pretty much all the traits of genjutsu, i.e. creation of illusions seen only by the one effected, its purpose is to cause mental trauma through these illusions and to immoblize its victim, etc.

So it stands to reason that you could escape the manga sharingan if you were somehow able to inflict some damage upon yourself such as how Shikamaru did. Kakashi wasn't able to because obviously he was tied up, but so was Shikamaru and here is a time Shikamaru's cleverness really pays off. Also I don't think you can actually die from it directly just like other genjutsus, unless somehow it can mess up your brain so bad you die (doubtful). Indirectly of course it can kill you in many ways (just walk up and slit your throat while you're under its effects for instance) and I think that is what Kakashi meant when he said to himself "why didn't he kill me."

True these are some assumptions and extractions as nothing was explicitly said in the manga/anime but I see no other explaination for it.
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Old 2004-05-24, 01:46   Link #136
DracoBattousai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyro
I think Sarutobi should win this vote no contest if we are considering them in their primes.

Anyway, was it just me or was the mange sharingan just an advanced genjutsu move, like the one that flute girl (from the 4 sound) did to Shikamaru? It shares pretty much all the traits of genjutsu, i.e. creation of illusions seen only by the one effected, its purpose is to cause mental trauma through these illusions and to immoblize its victim, etc.

So it stands to reason that you could escape the manga sharingan if you were somehow able to inflict some damage upon yourself such as how Shikamaru did. Kakashi wasn't able to because obviously he was tied up, but so was Shikamaru and here is a time Shikamaru's cleverness really pays off. Also I don't think you can actually die from it directly just like other genjutsus, unless somehow it can mess up your brain so bad you die (doubtful). Indirectly of course it can kill you in many ways (just walk up and slit your throat while you're under its effects for instance) and I think that is what Kakashi meant when he said to himself "why didn't he kill me."

True these are some assumptions and extractions as nothing was explicitly said in the manga/anime but I see no other explaination for it.
Because Tsukiyomi occured in 1 Second. No time to inflict actual pain on yourself before your are already caught. I believe Tsukiyomi can also kill through the mind if it goes on long enough, your mind will die, so will you.
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Last edited by DracoBattousai; 2004-05-24 at 02:05.
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Old 2004-05-24, 02:03   Link #137
sarcasteak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyro
I think Sarutobi should win this vote no contest if we are considering them in their primes.
Agreed, but this thread was meant to be silly, afterall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyro
Anyway, was it just me or was the mange sharingan just an advanced genjutsu move, like the one that flute girl (from the 4 sound) did to Shikamaru? It shares pretty much all the traits of genjutsu, i.e. creation of illusions seen only by the one effected, its purpose is to cause mental trauma through these illusions and to immoblize its victim, etc.
Unlike the other genjutsus that do specific tasks, the world of Tsukiyomi is completely controlled by the user's will...so the target is basically bind there. Though genjutsus generally can be broken by pain, Kakashi was already in some pain after the kage buushin explosion...shouldn't he be immune from it if such were the case? Also, Tsukiyomi happens so quickly in real time that there really isn't much time to react once hit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyro
Also I don't think you can actually die from it directly just like other genjutsus, unless somehow it can mess up your brain so bad you die (doubtful).
Mental breakdowns can cause death; one's spirit and mind can strongly impact the body. If your mind believes your body is dead...you'll be in trouble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyro
True these are some assumptions and extractions as nothing was explicitly said in the manga/anime but I see no other explaination for it.
I like your reasoning for the most part, but hopefully mine offers a different angle for consideration. ^_^
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Old 2004-05-24, 03:38   Link #138
epyon96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcasteak
Agreed, but this thread was meant to be silly, afterall.


Unlike the other genjutsus that do specific tasks, the world of Tsukiyomi is completely controlled by the user's will...so the target is basically bind there. Though genjutsus generally can be broken by pain, Kakashi was already in some pain after the kage buushin explosion...shouldn't he be immune from it if such were the case? Also, Tsukiyomi happens so quickly in real time that there really isn't much time to react once hit.


Mental breakdowns can cause death; one's spirit and mind can strongly impact the body. If your mind believes your body is dead...you'll be in trouble.


I like your reasoning for the most part, but hopefully mine offers a different angle for consideration. ^_^
Just looking at it from a biological standpoint to extend your point. I believe a person cannot die from excessive pain or extremedepression. Usually the pain or depression causes some other bodily failure like heart attack or the like.

I can see an extremely potent Genjutsu like the one induced by Mangekyo Sharingan causing a major heart attack for someone like Kakashi.

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Old 2004-05-24, 05:20   Link #139
Skyro
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Just a few responses:

-I don't know if mental breakdown or not can kill someone. I just threw that out there to think about. If the mange sharingan really can kill you in this way then maybe other advanced genjutsu can as well who knows. Or maybe this is unique to this technique, but I would still classify it as a genjutsu.

-I think all genjutsu "worlds" (i.e. again, referring to the Tayuya's (?) genjutsu on Shika) are controlled by the user, making the mange sharingan again no different.

-The sudden "jolt" to the body from pain is what allows you to get out of genjutsu. Pain recieved beforehand (such as your example with Kakashi) are more like "lingering" pain and would not allow you to be "immune" to genjutsu, because then genjutsu would essentially be useless would it not?

-Now it sort of gets confusing when you consider mange sharingan only lasts for 1 second. The question becomes whether they can respond fast enough to break it (if in fact pain would indeed break it). Reacting in 1 second in real time would be hard, but in the mange sharingan world time is slowed down so then the person would have had time to react, if in fact the person had planned ahead for such an event and prepared some way to inflict pain on himself. It sort of is a hole that hasn't really been fully explained about genjutsu.

-Lastly, I haven't really heard anything that really points it from not being a form of genjutsu. The ability to control the genjutsu and its duration point more to the potency of said jutsu rather than what type it is. I think when people start to look at it as a genjutsu people will see it isn't some all-powerful move that most percieve it to be. For example, if Kishimoto switched around the genjutsus used by Itachi and Tayuya, while still keeping the potentcy of the user in mind (the genjutsu used by Itachi still only had a real time duration of 1 second), I bet people would've STILL said Itachi's mange sharingan was all-powerful, awesome, etc., and STILL never mention Tayuya's genjutsu at all. Why? Because the world created by the genjutsu is irrelevant as long as it achieves the desired purpose, and also of course because Itachi is popular and Tayuya is not. Food for thought.

edit: Oh yeah, also Itachi states that only another natural sharingan user is immune to the mange sharingan, which other than setting up the inevitable confrontation with Sasuke, fits into the theory of it being genjutsu since the sharingan can see through genjutsu (given the potency of the sharingan can match the potency of the genjutsu). There is just too many similarities between the mange sharingan and genjutsu that I don't see what else it could be.

Last edited by Skyro; 2004-05-24 at 05:56.
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Old 2004-05-24, 06:34   Link #140
snarl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcasteak
Uhh...you know that gaze means look steadily or stare, right?


Since your words make little sense, I'm going to assume you meant that Itachi needs to concentrate his eyes on the victims' eyes, not just in the general direction. If that's what you were trying to say...then says who? As long as the two eyes meet even for a split second, that is eye contact whether intentionally or not. From that fight we've seen against the jounins, if Itachi has to look in one specific person's eyes, then why did Kakashi tell all three of them to close their eyes? Shouldn't there be an opening the moment Itachi stares into one person's eyes? That supports my interpretation that as long as his eye sight grazed the targets', they're caught.
I was trying to say both parties need eye contact, and that no matter how hard Itachi stared at his opponents eyes that were not looking into his, it wouldn't do anything. A shuriken thrown into Itachi's direction would draw his attention and break his blank gaze... in fact any sudden movement would. Just like how Kakashi jumped back when he saw the shuriken drawn, Itachi would at least look at the hand movement. So really, it isn't as hard to avoid as you make it out to be.
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