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Old 2008-12-31, 23:37   Link #61
Waven
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It's so funny to see most people not imagining Ryuuji and Taiga having a physical relationship even though these people would admit their pairing to be set in stone. Same for me, it's the conclusion i've been waiting for all along but when thinking about these two characters having a '''normal''' lovey-dovey relationship i can't help the chuckling .

Uhm btw happy new year (at least here in europe)
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Old 2009-01-01, 00:12   Link #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
If it was Lacus/Kira, they probably kissed somewhere in Destiny. But because their relationship was under-developed *as a whole*, it didn't make sense. Again it is not because of a lack of them showing physical affection but overall poor writing.
Kira should have gone with the blonde.

Oh well...

Anyways, all that's really needed to be shown is Taiga and Ryuuji being more intimate, and not in big ways either.

Maybe a peck on the cheek and holding hands for no other reason than to hold hands.

Otherwise all I get from their connection is they're good boy/girl buddies and that's why, through watching the anime, I'm not so sure how believable they'll end up as a couple. Right now, I'm feeling Ami makes more sense but the word and the novels all say Taiga so I'm not going to argue that point.
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Old 2009-01-01, 00:37   Link #63
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Waven, it is the matter of perception and reflection upon your actions. When you are not in a relationship with a person your perception of the actions is different when when you are in a relationship. This way when you are in a realationship something that before came at ease becomes harder to do, and something that was harder to do now becomes easier.

Because of this, if their relatinship changes which seems to lead this way we cannot be fully guaranteed that their connection specially on the physical level will remain unchained and would now just have romantic coloring to it.

Sometimes when your perception and awareness about the other and yourself change the relationship does change a lot.

Like when couple looks and acts like a true couple but once they officially become an item changing the self-reflecting stance and the reflection in general upon ones actions with the other, this relationship does break. Due to inability to cope with the changes.

Thats why I believe some exploration of them as couple needed, otherwise it would leave a blank space in a physical relationship space.

In simple words, though we have been proved that they share a strong spiritual connection, we are unaware how their connection as couple will work when their and others reflection on them changes. And because a real love always is a mixure of these two parts (or as Vexx noticed their are so mixed together so that this dichotomy is artificial in itself) when we see a focus just on spiritual connection, it makes one question their actual possibility as a couple that share love and not just spiritual bond.
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Old 2009-01-01, 09:17   Link #64
Waven
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Waven, it is the matter of perception and reflection upon your actions. When you are not in a relationship with a person your perception of the actions is different when when you are in a relationship. This way when you are in a realationship something that before came at ease becomes harder to do, and something that was harder to do now becomes easier.

Because of this, if their relatinship changes which seems to lead this way we cannot be fully guaranteed that their connection specially on the physical level will remain unchained and would now just have romantic coloring to it.

Sometimes when your perception and awareness about the other and yourself change the relationship does change a lot.

Like when couple looks and acts like a true couple but once they officially become an item changing the self-reflecting stance and the reflection in general upon ones actions with the other, this relationship does break. Due to inability to cope with the changes.

Thats why I believe some exploration of them as couple needed, otherwise it would leave a blank space in a physical relationship space.

In simple words, though we have been proved that they share a strong spiritual connection, we are unaware how their connection as couple will work when their and others reflection on them changes. And because a real love always is a mixure of these two parts (or as Vexx noticed their are so mixed together so that this dichotomy is artificial in itself) when we see a focus just on spiritual connection, it makes one question their actual possibility as a couple that share love and not just spiritual bond.
Yes i totally agree with you here, it's just that my own personal perception as a reader and observer makes me feel funny (in a good, humorous way) when thinking about the mentioned possible change of their relationship towards the physical
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Old 2009-01-01, 21:05   Link #65
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Guys, it's not like Vol. 10 can't be focused on them DEVELOPING a physical relationship...
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Old 2009-01-01, 21:34   Link #66
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I agree. There's really no point in saying anything about something that isn't released yet.
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Old 2009-01-02, 01:17   Link #67
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You're allowed to dream, aren't you?
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Old 2009-01-02, 01:23   Link #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Guys, it's not like Vol. 10 can't be focused on them DEVELOPING a physical relationship...
True but you still need to bring conclusions to those issues that are left (not about Taiga and Ryuuji being a couple but other issues). And they cannot be solved very quickly either.
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Old 2009-01-02, 02:04   Link #69
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Originally Posted by wistfulloner View Post
You're allowed to dream, aren't you?
Not if it results in pages and pages of the same arguments being repeated ad infinitum, no, not really.

I'd like to see some positive comments. That'd be great. Yeah.

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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
True but you still need to bring conclusions to those issues that are left (not about Taiga and Ryuuji being a couple but other issues). And they cannot be solved very quickly either.
It's not like Vol. 10 can't be like, 7-8 chapters or something either. I can imagine their family troubles being resolved fairly easily if they work together.
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Old 2009-01-02, 02:45   Link #70
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I wouldn't really call this arguing. More appropriately I'd call it healthy banter

I'll wait for the English translation to complete before I comment further, or I'm liable to contradict myself later on. For now I guess speculating can't hurt.
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Old 2009-01-02, 07:03   Link #71
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This is the spoiler and speculations thread after all, isn't it?
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Old 2009-01-06, 00:49   Link #72
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Guess I was expecting bit too much from Toradora...
Yes, and that is your problem as I pointed out time and again. You are coming in from a wrong approach to the story.

Basically, tl:dr as I glanced and saw you are just repeating the same stuff over again. Again as I've said, what you expect from a relationship is completely irrelevant to how the author wants to protary her characters in her novel because again, you're just forcing your own ideals onto what the author wants to say.

Also whether I've been in a relationship is irrelevant to the question at hand, this is just a strawman argument that is taking away from the actual discussion at hand - what the author wants to write about.

I've said it time and again, that the author of ToraDora is writing an idealised, perfect form of relationship from a woman's POV, as you have pointed out yourself that it is a utopia form of it and I've never denied that - you've basically just reenforced my argument. Again it is not what *I* think and what *you* think is believable or not in RL what a true relationship should involve, it is what the author thinks and wants to convey as what she thinks defines romantic moments in a relationship in her story. You disagreeing with the author just means that you don't agree with her ideals towards how relationship works (and obviously she has a very idealised version of it in ToraDora, which again, I never denied and you basically agrees), it has nothing to do with the internal integrity of the relationship of the characters as she had protrayed in the novels. Therefore your argument is a complete failure as everything you wrote is just what you think is realistic in a relationship in a novel which is set out to be an idealistic form of relationship from a women's POV, which even you yourselve has basically said is what the author wants to write about! So what is the point of your constant binkering of it then?

An analogy would be something like you're complaining about a sci-fi series where the certain laws of physics is wrong or broken or re-written, but you should have known that such a series is going to disregard laws of physics in the first place in a sci-fi series. What's important is the internal consistency of the laws as the series itself defines within its universe. Complaining about such disregard of the laws in such work is not good criticism of the series at hand. Similiarily this is what you are doing to ToraDora instead of looking at the internal consistency of the show, the style of the writing, the target audience and just hammering on how the relationship between Tiaga and Ryuji is not realistic when it clearly wasn't the intention of the author (to write a realistic romantic relationship) to begin with and even YOU yourself can clearly see. The show defines itself as a idealised outlook of how relationship is form and you're complaining about the fact that it actually out to achieved that, which for the lack of a better word, is just plain stupid.
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Last edited by houkoholic; 2009-01-06 at 03:30.
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Old 2009-01-06, 06:44   Link #73
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The light novel genre doesn't indicate that it will be really just an idealized relationship or not. So while in Sci-Fi you know the genre from the beginning with Light Novels you do not, thats why your a statement that I should not complain because this is how it is in the beginning is incorrect because it is hard to tell how it will be. For me it looked like the author may start to build up a real relationship with them being together and not just the utopia. This is why am disappointed because the novels did created a realistic enough characters and realistic setting, but unrealistic relationship. And basically - love relationship.

Besides, since when I cannot question what author thinks and what authors dreams are?

I can. But then again you may ask what is the point if authors work already is already finished and i cannot change that... But this is the point - such discussions are also the point of creating. What is the point of discussing Descartes, Plato or Camus? All of that was written already and we cannot change what was written, and in fact will never be able as those authors are dead. Yet the discussions arise. Personally I think it is one of the purpose of a book or any creation for that matter - not to forget yourself but also know a little bit more about yourself. Such discussions no matter how silly may be do carry in my opinion one of the most important points of any creation. The creation that cannot be questioned, misinterpreted and discussed is a very poor one.

Thats why for me the discussion about the things that you call irrelevant carry much importance. Such discussions, and not just 'ZOMG Ami is beautiful! No Taiga is!' are really one of the points of good book.

Without a question Toradora is good book and even if it creates a u topical dysfunctional relationship it at the same time makes one question and dicuss about the things that are not just plot-holes and character outlooks.

Thats why I wanted to know your opinion regarding the question that Toradora created. Yes the question is Toradora shaped but the essence of the question runs far beyond it

If you look at it firmly - it will never have any importance as the book is written and the author will hardly ever be concerned about what we discuss, but then again all of the discussions as such should be closed down, and this forum as well if we follow this logic, as simply none of our discussions will ever had any real importance. But it does have importance to us and thats why such discussions should take place. And if the book allows to discuss something deeper, why should we avoid that?
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Old 2009-01-06, 07:36   Link #74
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Actually, generalizations for the sake of generalizations - like you just did there in the beginning of your last post, Darknemo2000 - don't move any kind of discussion forward.

And, of course you can question the author's hopes and dreams... but your questioning won't be any more valid than anyone else's, since it will be inherently a guess.
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Old 2009-01-06, 10:31   Link #75
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Actually, generalizations for the sake of generalizations - like you just did there in the beginning of your last post, Darknemo2000 - don't move any kind of discussion forward.
In the beginning of my last post, I was talking about that Light Novels do not indicate that it will be based on Utopic Relationship, differently from Science fiction where the genre itself indicates what you should expect. So the hopes can be valid about the series. You just cannot say - this was a Light Novel to begin with, you should have expected an unrealistic romance.

So I do not really get why you said this...

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And, of course you can question the author's hopes and dreams... but your questioning won't be any more valid than anyone else's, since it will be inherently a guess.
Where did I say that my opinion is more valid than anyones else's or that I am trying to make it more valid?I am just taking part in a discussion. This is a discussion forums and quite a bit of them are guesses or our own imaginations upon perspectives of someone else fantasies...

But as I said this why such forums exists. In general - it is pointless, to discuss a thing that you will never be able to change, to share your own opinion while everyone have theirs already and only rarely will change their look... but this is how it goes.
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Old 2009-01-06, 11:25   Link #76
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Below is the generalization I was talking about:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
The light novel genre doesn't indicate that it will be really just an idealized relationship or not. So while in Sci-Fi you know the genre from the beginning with Light Novels you do not
You can't simply state that to be true. Each different novel, in whatever genre they may be categorized into, could break whatever perceived mold in a million different ways. Generalization doesn't help your case.

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Where did I say that my opinion is more valid than anyones else's or that I am trying to make it more valid?
Right back at you: Where did I say you were trying to imply that?
My point is: when discussing the merits of a work of art/fiction/whatever, a discussion can be a healthy one. But, when we start trying to outright guess what the author was trying to do, insofar as we don't have any kinda input from him/her, that makes it a futile effort, IMHO. But feel free to do so, if that's what you like to do.
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Old 2009-01-06, 13:30   Link #77
Waven
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Maybe the author's intention doesn't matter at all, I for myself am becoming more of a follower of Barthes' essay "Death of the Author"

Last edited by Waven; 2009-01-06 at 14:06.
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Old 2009-01-06, 14:05   Link #78
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And, on that note, and thanks to the person (?) who neg-repped me over the post above (even though he/she/it didn't have any rep points), I'm withdrawing from this pointless discussion. Carry on, people.
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Old 2009-01-06, 18:23   Link #79
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BetoJR, wasn't me, I do not rep people all that much, but usually it is positive rather than negative. Unless the post is really insulting.

But I am sure I would have been getting quite a bit of negative reps myself but I just turned the function off so I would not get my head over it.

Yet I still do not get your point at all. I am saying that Light Novel doesn't indicate what genre it is, by itself, unlike the Science-Fiction where it indicates the theme, Light novels can be various and that is my point, because Houkoholic was drawing comparison between Light Novels and between the Science-Fiction, so that I should have already known by the genre, and my response is that it being a Light Novel doesn't really indicate about what theme it will have as there are many various themes in Light Novels so I cannot be informed the way I am in Science-Fiction. Thus I cannot be aware from the very beginning that it really is about this or that. I don't see where you find this overgeneralization. Because simply Light Novels do not imply a necessarily genre like Science-Fiction in its name. Sure it may have tags like Romance, comedy and so on, but Light Novel as such, itself doesn't imply a specific genre.

I am like Waver follower of Author's death philosophy, though it wasn't just Barthes - Gadamer, Nietzsche and others wrote about the connection between the creator , creation and the perceiver.
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Old 2009-01-06, 18:50   Link #80
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Wasn't me either, it's one of the reasons i've turned mine off, this way i don't have to hold back when i want to express my opinion or show of just for the sake of some green squares

But getting back to the topic: There is no wrong approach to any kind of fiction. It just determines the circle of conversation - so boobooboo to anyone denying comments that have at least a reasonable thought.
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