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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi?
The 1st 24 5.99%
The 2nd 3 0.75%
Sarutobi 117 29.18%
The 4th 119 29.68%
Jiraiya 27 6.73%
Orochimaru 10 2.49%
Tsunde 4 1.00%
Itachi 73 18.20%
Other...[Please State Who] 24 5.99%
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2004-05-24, 07:59   Link #141
sarcasteak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyro
Or maybe this is unique to this technique, but I would still classify it as a genjutsu.
Uhh, you are correct...it IS a genjutu. There is no doubt about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyro
-I think all genjutsu "worlds" (i.e. again, referring to the Tayuya's (?) genjutsu on Shika) are controlled by the user, making the mange sharingan again no different.
No. All genjutsu spells create a specific type of hypnosis, hallucination, or illusion, but none other than Tsukiyomi is completely controlled by a user's will. Tayuya's genjutsu on Shika is no different. See below for most of the genjutsu...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyro
-The sudden "jolt" to the body from pain is what allows you to get out of genjutsu. Pain recieved beforehand (such as your example with Kakashi) are more like "lingering" pain and would not allow you to be "immune" to genjutsu, because then genjutsu would essentially be useless would it not?
So constant stinging pain wouldn't work, either, since that would be "lingering pain"? Your intepretation does make sense, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyro
-Now it sort of gets confusing when you consider mange sharingan only lasts for 1 second. The question becomes whether they can respond fast enough to break it (if in fact pain would indeed break it). Reacting in 1 second in real time would be hard, but in the mange sharingan world time is slowed down so then the person would have had time to react, if in fact the person had planned ahead for such an event and prepared some way to inflict pain on himself. It sort of is a hole that hasn't really been fully explained about genjutsu.
Yes, we don't know whether Kakashi could've controlled his body at all while his mind is in Tsukiyomi. I'm presuming he couldn't because he was fully prepare to take it and he knew what the move was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyro
-Lastly, I haven't really heard anything that really points it from not being a form of genjutsu.
Why do you even bring this up? There is no debate whether Tsukiyomi is a genjutsu or not--because it is!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyro
The ability to control the genjutsu and its duration point more to the potency of said jutsu rather than what type it is.
I don't know if I'm misunderstanding, but are you trying to say there is only one type of genjutsu in the world: genjutsu, and as long as the user is good, he can do annnnnnny thing he wants if the genjutsu hits? ^_^;;

There have been various classified genjutsu techniques already and each serve a specific purpose, nothing more. [Hell-Viewing] (Kakashi on Sakura) draws out the targets' worst fear, [Wrong-Place] fools others into thinking they are somewhere else (Izumo and Kotetsu on examinees), [don't know name] sends everyone asleep (Kabuto on audience) and can be broken by 'kai' seal beforehand, [Absolute Darkness] creates exactly that around the target and cannot be broken by mere pain (1st Hokage on Sarutobi) , [Mist User] unleashes an army of dark mist ninja that stem from the terrain that multiplies when hit (Mubi on Team 7 and Kabuto), [Fox-in-Heart] fools the target into walking around in circle constantly (Rain Ninja on Team 7 and Kabuto), [don't know name] creates tree or terrain to make the opponents think they are immoblized (Kurenai on Itachi and Kisame), and [don't know name] slowly melts away the targets' flesh in the illusion world (Tayuya on Shika).

I don't know...they kinda sound specific to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyro
I think when people start to look at it as a genjutsu people will see it isn't some all-powerful move that most percieve it to be. For example, if Kishimoto switched around the genjutsus used by Itachi and Tayuya, while still keeping the potentcy of the user in mind (the genjutsu used by Itachi still only had a real time duration of 1 second), I bet people would've STILL said Itachi's mange sharingan was all-powerful, awesome, etc., and STILL never mention Tayuya's genjutsu at all. Why? Because the world created by the genjutsu is irrelevant as long as it achieves the desired purpose, and also of course because Itachi is popular and Tayuya is not. Food for thought.
No. People have high praises for Tsukiyomi simply because it is a world completely controlled by the user unlike all other genjutsu not no matter how scary they are. And don't eat bad food...bad for your brain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyro
edit: Oh yeah, also Itachi states that only another natural sharingan user is immune to the mange sharingan,
No. Not only did Itachi not say this, Sasuke, "another natural sharingan user," certainly wasn't quite so immune to it the two times it hit him, no? Itachi told Kakashi only one with true Uchiha blood and Sharingan can actually resist it. What this implies in my interpretation is that only another user with Mangekyo Sharingan who can also control the Tsukiyomi world will have a chance to win in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyro
fits into the theory of it being genjutsu since the sharingan can see through genjutsu (given the potency of the sharingan can match the potency of the genjutsu).
For the last time, it IS a genjutsu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyro
There is just too many similarities between the mange sharingan and genjutsu that I don't see what else it could be.
"Tsukiyomi." The move has a name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snarl
I was trying to say both parties need eye contact, and that no matter how hard Itachi stared at his opponents eyes that were not looking into his, it wouldn't do anything....So really, it isn't as hard to avoid as you make it out to be.
Ah, you were going with the good ol "don't-look-into-his-eyes" theory. Hmm...well, if the opponent can fight blindfolded and still keep up with Itachi's speed, then yes, this would work. But then again, it isn't as easy to pull off as you make it out to be.
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Old 2004-05-24, 09:24   Link #142
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Hmmm, you know, maybe Itachi is pushing Sasuke towards Orochimaru? I think that would be quite a challenege for Itachi to be able to prove his strength, a fight with Orochimaru in a body where he has sharingan, his most coveted of bloodlines. Surely Itachi would have seen Sasuke's cursed seal? Beating him down so easily would mostly likely turn Sasuke down that path towards 'seeking more power'.
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Old 2004-05-24, 09:40   Link #143
sarcasteak
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Originally Posted by ubdevoid
Surely Itachi would have seen Sasuke's cursed seal?
I don't think he has...Itachi never commented on it and I'm not even sure he has even seen it or know what it is.

But yah, if Itachi truly only wanted a challenger for Mangekyo Sharingan, then surely he wouldn't mind fighting Orochimaru in Sasuke's body...I guess?
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Old 2004-05-24, 09:42   Link #144
nh1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcasteak
So constant stinging pain wouldn't work, either, since that would be "lingering pain"? Your intepretation does make sense, though.
Pain from the real world should break a Genjutsu. It should make you realize that the Genjutsu is in fact fake. If Kakashi had known what was coming, had he known how fast he needed to be, then he should've been able to break it.
Quote:
Yes, we don't know whether Kakashi could've controlled his body at all while his mind is in Tsukiyomi. I'm presuming he couldn't because he was fully prepare to take it and he knew what the move was.
I don't think he knew it, considering we know it now because Itachi told him.
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Old 2004-05-24, 09:48   Link #145
sarcasteak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nh1
Pain from the real world should break a Genjutsu. It should make you realize that the Genjutsu is in fact fake.
Kakashi KNEW it was fake as did Shikamaru...but their bodies couldn't. Yes, pain should, but Skyro was almost saying that unless the pain comes directly after Tsukiyomi hits and before it ends in that short split-second span like a jolt, it wouldn't break...and that is awfully difficult to time, no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nh1
If Kakashi had known what was coming, had he known how fast he needed to be, then he should've been able to break it.
Split second. Jolt of pain, not constant pain. He was trying to say that even if the target is hurting and bleeding like hell, that wouldn't make a difference because it's not a "jolt of pain" during the genjutsu. Which I don't believe. Therefore, I don't believe pain helps out against high level genjutsu such as Tsukiyomi at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nh1
I don't think he knew it, considering we know it now because Itachi told him.
Kakashi obviously has heard of this ultimate Uchiha attack involving the Sharingan...why else would he tell Kurenai and Asuma to close their eyes? And Itachi pretty flat-out told him it was a genjutsu before he even used it, didn't he?
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Old 2004-05-24, 09:49   Link #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcasteak
I don't think he has...Itachi never commented on it and I'm not even sure he has even seen it or know what it is.

But yah, if Itachi truly only wanted a challenger for Mangekyo Sharingan, then surely he wouldn't mind fighting Orochimaru in Sasuke's body...I guess?
Actually in chapter 147 page 10 Itachi comments "The seal is unraveling" after he kicks Sasuke into the wall. The he proceeds to beat the shit out of him.
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Old 2004-05-24, 09:50   Link #147
sarcasteak
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Originally Posted by Sasuke Uchiha
Actually in chapter 147 page 10 Itachi comments "The seal is unraveling" after he kicks Sasuke into the wall. The he proceeds to beat the shit out of him.
NO. Pathetic mistranslation by that incompetent scanslator. Itachi looked at Sasuke's broken hand and pealed-off skins and commented "he [Sasuke] can't perform seals anymore [with that broken hand of his]."

...and then he proceeds to beat the shit out of him.
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Old 2004-05-24, 09:53   Link #148
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Originally Posted by sarcasteak
NO. Pathetic mistranslation by that incompetent scanslator. Itachi looked at Sasuke's broken hand and pealed-off skins and commented "he [Sasuke] can't perform seals anymore [with that broken hand of his]."

...and then he proceeds to beat the shit out of him.
Ahh, ok. That makes more sense. I was always wondering how he knew what the seal was.
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Old 2004-05-24, 09:55   Link #149
sarcasteak
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Originally Posted by Sasuke Uchiha
Ahh, ok. That makes more sense. I was always wondering how he knew what the seal was.
No problem. I am truly annoyed by how poorly the scanslation was through chapters 140~150; hopefully a competent scanslator (Inane or BakaFish perhaps) will go back and do those to stop misleading and confusing mistranslations.
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Old 2004-05-24, 09:56   Link #150
nh1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcasteak
Kakashi KNEW it was fake as did Shikamaru...but their bodies couldn't. Yes, pain should, but Skyro was almost saying that unless the pain comes directly after Tsukiyomi hits and before it ends in that short split-second span like a jolt, it wouldn't break...and that is awfully difficult to time, no?
For us, but we don't know how the abilities of a ninja in Naruto are.
Quote:
Kakashi obviously has heard of this ultimate Uchiha attack involving the Sharingan...why else would he tell Kurenai and Asuma to close their eyes? And Itachi pretty flat-out told him it was a genjutsu before he even used it, didn't he?
Was that the same? Then Kakashi can do it as well? Because which attack is Gai talking about when he says he is used to fighting Kakashi without making eye contact. And if he can't do Tsukiyomi, then what is it that Gai fears about Kakashi's `Sharingan?
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Old 2004-05-24, 10:04   Link #151
sarcasteak
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Originally Posted by nh1
Was that the same? Then Kakashi can do it as well? Because which attack is Gai talking about when he says he is used to fighting Kakashi without making eye contact. And if he can't do Tsukiyomi, then what is it that Gai fears about Kakashi's `Sharingan?
Sharingan has a general hypnotism mechanism built into it (this is official info...I didn't think so at first, but raikage I think proved me wrong), but you never hear it mentioned in any Sharingan vs [whatever] discussions because hypnosis could be performed without Sharingan so it's not "special" even though it requries no hand seals. Oh, that and hypnosis doesn't involve blowin' shit up...so no one cares about it. Gai was avoiding that aspect of the Sharingan.

Kakashi definitely knew some sort of devastating genjutsu is coming from Itachi; whether he knew of the way it works we do not know (he does now!~).

Quote:
Originally Posted by nh1
For us, but we don't know how the abilities of a ninja in Naruto are.
Are you serious about this comment...or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? ^_^;;
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Old 2004-05-24, 10:22   Link #152
nh1
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Originally Posted by sarcasteak
Sharingan has a general hypnotism mechanism built into it (this is official info...I didn't think so at first, but raikage I think proved me wrong), but you never hear it mentioned in any Sharingan vs [whatever] discussions because hypnosis could be performed without Sharingan so it's not "special" even though it requries no hand seals. Oh, that and hypnosis doesn't involve blowin' shit up...so no one cares about it. Gai was avoiding that aspect of the Sharingan.
Exactly, and that was why Kakashi told Kurenai and Asuma to close their eyes, while he closed his one, normal eye.
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Kakashi definitely knew some sort of devastating genjutsu is coming from Itachi; whether he knew of the way it works we do not know (he does now!~).
Exactly!
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Old 2004-05-24, 10:26   Link #153
sarcasteak
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Originally Posted by nh1
Exactly, and that was why Kakashi told Kurenai and Asuma to close their eyes, while he closed his one, normal eye.

Exactly!
Damn...we agree?! Oh well, that's that then. >_<

I want to clarify that while the hypnotism can definitely help a Sharingan user in battle, it is not that scary for Kakashi to tell everyone to close their eyes...he knew that something like Tsukiyomi was coming since Kakashi is most likely fairly familiar with the Uchiha Clan and Sharingan.

Oh hey, I think there's some fun going on in that newest Sharingan vs Byakugan thread, though I don't think logic and reason work well in there... XD
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Old 2004-05-24, 10:33   Link #154
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Originally Posted by sarcasteak
Damn...we agree?! Oh well, that's that then. >_<

I want to clarify that while the hypnotism can definitely help a Sharingan user in battle, it is not that scary for Kakashi to tell everyone to close their eyes...he knew that something like Tsukiyomi was coming since Kakashi is most likely fairly familiar with the Uchiha Clan and Sharingan.

Oh hey, I think there's some fun going on in that newest Sharingan vs Byakugan thread, though I don't think logic and reason work well in there... XD
Yah sorry, I'm still new to these forums, what can you say....
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Old 2004-05-24, 10:41   Link #155
sarcasteak
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Yah sorry, I'm still new to these forums, what can you say....
You should be able to tell whom I was referring to.

Beating a dead horse just isn't my thing, especially a versus thread. Besides, it's kinda fun watching all these Byakugan fanboys and Sharingan fanboys duke it out. I'm in the latter group, too, but I've already done my work in this thread...besides I wouldn't fit in very well in that other thread.
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Old 2004-05-24, 10:57   Link #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcasteak
There have been various classified genjutsu techniques already and each serve a specific purpose, nothing more. [Hell-Viewing] (Kakashi on Sakura) draws out the targets' worst fear, [Wrong-Place] fools others into thinking they are somewhere else (Izumo and Kotetsu on examinees), [don't know name] sends everyone asleep (Kabuto on audience) and can be broken by 'kai' seal beforehand, [Absolute Darkness] creates exactly that around the target and cannot be broken by mere pain (1st Hokage on Sarutobi) , [Mist User] unleashes an army of dark mist ninja that stem from the terrain that multiplies when hit (Mubi on Team 7 and Kabuto), [Fox-in-Heart] fools the target into walking around in circle constantly (Rain Ninja on Team 7 and Kabuto), [don't know name] creates tree or terrain to make the opponents think they are immoblized (Kurenai on Itachi and Kisame), and [don't know name] slowly melts away the targets' flesh in the illusion world (Tayuya on Shika).

I don't know...they kinda sound specific to me.


No. People have high praises for Tsukiyomi simply because it is a world completely controlled by the user unlike all other genjutsu not no matter how scary they are. And don't eat bad food...bad for your brain.


No. Not only did Itachi not say this, Sasuke, "another natural sharingan user," certainly wasn't quite so immune to it the two times it hit him, no? Itachi told Kakashi only one with true Uchiha blood and Sharingan can actually resist it. What this implies in my interpretation is that only another user with Mangekyo Sharingan who can also control the Tsukiyomi world will have a chance to win in it.
First point - I agree. The Tsukiyomi is VASTLY different from all the other genjutsu we have seen so far.
No other genjutsu so far have inflicted pain on their own.
No other genjutsu has worked on anything besides sigt and sound - so theoretically someone like Kiba, who can rely on smell, or Shino with his bugs, could easily get through several of the genjutsus.

So, the Tsukiyomi is a battle of wills? Sounds good to me. It is a battle that could have no end, though, since the world can be controlled by both users. Presumably, you would have unlimited chakra and the ability to create any jutsu you damn well desire, like "Transform-Itachi's-katanas-into-flowers-no jutsu" and Tsunade's insane healing justu. The battle would never stop.
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Old 2004-05-24, 10:57   Link #157
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Yah I know exactly what you're talking about... I always feel compelled to write in those things for some reason though.

Anyway, I think it's too early to conclude anything about the strongest ninja. So far though, definitely Sarutobi in his prime.
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Old 2004-05-24, 10:59   Link #158
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So, the Tsukiyomi is a battle of wills? Sounds good to me. It is a battle that could have no end, though, since the world can be controlled by both users. Presumably, you would have unlimited chakra and the ability to create any jutsu you damn well desire, like "Transform-Itachi's-katanas-into-flowers-no jutsu" and Tsunade's insane healing justu. The battle would never stop.
Maybe that's a clue to how Sasuke vs. Itachi will go... basically they'll use Tsukiyomi on each other and fight the entire battle in a matter of seconds.
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Old 2004-05-24, 11:09   Link #159
sarcasteak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raikage
So, the Tsukiyomi is a battle of wills? Sounds good to me. It is a battle that could have no end, though, since the world can be controlled by both users. Presumably, you would have unlimited chakra and the ability to create any jutsu you damn well desire, like "Transform-Itachi's-katanas-into-flowers-no jutsu" and Tsunade's insane healing justu. The battle would never stop.
Hehe yah, the battle won't stop until one side runs of chakra or will power (the longer the user controls Tsukiyomi, the more taxing it is). But this is where Sasuke's hatred comes into play--his single devotion to kill his brother is probably the key to beating the emotionless Itachi. Sasuke wants to kill his brother so badly whereas Itachi probably only treats the duel as a good challenge, nothing more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aptenergy
Yah I know exactly what you're talking about... I always feel compelled to write in those things for some reason though.
Heh, I knew it was going to be a disaster the moment I saw it made...
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Old 2004-05-24, 11:27   Link #160
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You should be able to tell whom I was referring to.
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