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Old 2009-01-05, 22:38   Link #41
WanderingKnight
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@Ledgem:

I agree that this is a very complex situation, but bombing civilians is not the way to solve it. Neither Israel nor Hamas are saints, and neither are fully responsible for this situation. Neither is the US completely unrelated to the whole thing--their stake on the conflict has had a very deep influence throughout the whole past century.

Palestina should have been granted their place. Israel should have never started the Six Days War. Hamas should have never been born. There are tons of ways to explain what happened to reach this situation, and there are tons of ways to see that it's not a very easy one. But as soon as everyone starts pointing fingers and trying to seek "guilty" people, the rest of us will start digging in the mud and find shit on both sides.

Meanwhile, civilians die. And no one seems to give a crap about that unless it's for saying "You had it coming".
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Old 2009-01-05, 22:44   Link #42
aohige
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
As I have ties to Israel I may be biased, but I feel that the Palestinian militants are the aggressors. I don't care to discuss who owned the land originally - it's a bit late for that. Israel's retaliations have not always been justified, and many of them have seemingly been sloppy, but what else can they do? Palestinians do successfully work and assimilate into Israeli society; it isn't that Israel is out to get the Palestinians, but they are attempting to protect their population. The wall that they're building is a defensive measure, not one designed to harm the Palestinians.
Wait.... what?

Who owned the land isn't an issue, it's too late?
Well, that's true, and therein lies the fundamental problem.

Assimilate into Israeli society? I think you're confusing Israel with United States.
Although Israel is a modern nation, unfortunately Israeli laws are very tied to the zionist movement. What I mean by this is, jewish population are protected with special rights under the nation's law. For example, land that's "redeemed" to become jewish owned cannot be moved to a non-jewish, nor can it be rented.

A non-jew, especially a palestanian, assimilating into Israeli society is neigh-impossible.
If Israel was like USA, and USA finished invading a neighboring land and its people... over the time, it can assimilate them into their society. We've seen this happen through American history.
However, due to its nature of origin (and not to mention its young age as a nation), Israeli laws are strongly tied with its religious belief, and what's worse... that religion is a very uni-racial belief.

Palestanians are not the only ones that needs to be making social changes before any type of unification can even be attempted.
Both sides have a LOT of work cut out.
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Old 2009-01-05, 22:49   Link #43
iLney
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Yet neither side launched a major attack while the last ceasefire was in place, despite numorous provocations from both sides. They both waited until it expired before resuming the attacks. That in itself shows that a peace might not be as fragile as you seem to think. Plus this whole war thing hasn't exactly solved things now has it?
It's too fragile to me. And besides, the way both sides conduct this war make me think it is a hunting trip where citizens are games. "That's it for today. Until next round. Peace!"
Quote:
No, in a total war civilian populations are deliberately targeted. There's a difference between saying, "we're going to hit these targets regardless of whether or not there are civlians in the area" and "we're going to target civlians directly." Israel isn't just hitting random buildings, they in fact spent a great deal of time picking out targets using intelligence resources on the ground prior to the attack.
The nature of this conflict is that of a total war. If one fights the others, he must cripple everything: economy, military, health services, education etc...
Quote:
So no one will care makes things ok?
No but Israel has been behaving that way because the world is watching, which doesn't make anything right either. Just do it once and get over it. In the long run, it would be better for the new generation.
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Old 2009-01-06, 02:31   Link #44
Shadow Kira01
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Originally Posted by iLney View Post
It's too fragile to me. And besides, the way both sides conduct this war make me think it is a hunting trip where citizens are games. "That's it for today. Until next round. Peace!"
From the looks of the situation and the death tolls, I getting the feeling that the civilians living in both Gaza and Southern Israel are the true victims, while both the Hamas and the Israeli military is having their "fun" military game in which both sides try to kill civilians of the other and at the same time maintain a low casualty rate on the players. The number of Hamas dead is extremely low, while the number of civilians in Gaza dies and injured is extremely high. The same situation seems to be facing the ones living in Southern Israel. This definitely doesn't look good.

Quote:
The nature of this conflict is that of a total war. If one fights the others, he must cripple everything: economy, military, health services, education etc...
I disagree. The nature of this conflict is not a total war no matter how you look at it. First of all, it is not the Palestinian military that Israel is currently fighting, but rather speaking.. An underground group known as Hamas who are attacking Southern Israel using home-made rockets, whereas Israel is bombing civilian infrastratures in Gaza as payback, over a week straight and is now invading Gaza utilizing the military flex of their ground forces. A certain victory? What war??

Quote:
No but Israel has been behaving that way because the world is watching, which doesn't make anything right either. Just do it once and get over it. In the long run, it would be better for the new generation.
Better for the new generation of what? In other words, you are saying that Israel should invade Gaza, killed everybody that got in their paths and nothing will happen in the future because the threats had been removed? This doesn't sound quite right.
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Old 2009-01-06, 03:17   Link #45
Jazzrat
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Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post

Better for the new generation of what? In other words, you are saying that Israel should invade Gaza, killed everybody that got in their paths and nothing will happen in the future because the threats had been removed? This doesn't sound quite right.
It will be better for the next generation of Israel where they need not to worry about getting shot by rockets from random attacks. The stalemate between the two have dragged for longer than it needs to. It would be good to end it so atleast one country can move on instead of 2 countries stuck in a rut.

Many innocent lives will be lost but people are dying anyway during the many "ceasefire" period they had over the years.
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Old 2009-01-06, 11:48   Link #46
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Yet neither side launched a major attack while the last ceasefire was in place, despite numorous provocations from both sides. They both waited until it expired before resuming the attacks. That in itself shows that a peace might not be as fragile as you seem to think. Plus this whole war thing hasn't exactly solved things now has it?



No, in a total war civilian populations are deliberately targeted. There's a difference between saying, "we're going to hit these targets regardless of whether or not there are civlians in the area" and "we're going to target civlians directly." Israel isn't just hitting random buildings, they in fact spent a great deal of time picking out targets using intelligence resources on the ground prior to the attack.


So no one will care makes things ok?

u prob know that or ppl at least called u that, and im not sure if im saying this right(forgive me english is a 2nd lang that i know only a few years) but u r fastidious, look I got a heart and im sad about the palastinian kids and the none extremeist but u said urself we atk using our intelligence resources and is it so hard for the moslims to fake intellegence for us so we would hit kids and I wont be suprirsed if u think im lying(sounds pretty made up) but they want to make us hit kids so they can show it to the world. today at school I told my friend who is a bit more let say educated then me in news in general and he told me then they even filled a truck with bodies so they can take photos of it to show it to the world... and did u know that they tease us with photo's and vidoes or 2 soliders they kidnaped and didnt tell us if they are alive, made an agreement with us which says we will free a lot and I mean a lot in the hundreds of palstinian who let say blow up somewhere or helped with it and when we got the bodies turns out one of them have been killed from the start and the other one torture and then killed?

again sry about my english and hope I helped you understand
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Old 2009-01-06, 15:15   Link #47
mg1942
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This situation is going to get out of control. The damned Palestinians are a people that knows nothing but violence. They continually show that they can not abide by a cease fire as Hamas continually shelled Israel with thousands of rockets during a truce they signed.

The Israelis are in this for their survival. They continually try to exist peacefully with the Palestinians but are met with violence at every turn. This problem is spilling over into Europe because of Europe's stupid belief in allowing unbridled immigration and allowing multiculturalism. This should be a lesson to us in the US that these actions bring nothing but problems in the long run.
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Old 2009-01-06, 15:57   Link #48
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
This situation is going to get out of control. The damned Palestinians are a people that knows nothing but violence. They continually show that they can not abide by a cease fire as Hamas continually shelled Israel with thousands of rockets during a truce they signed.

The Israelis are in this for their survival. They continually try to exist peacefully with the Palestinians but are met with violence at every turn. This problem is spilling over into Europe because of Europe's stupid belief in allowing unbridled immigration and allowing multiculturalism. This should be a lesson to us in the US that these actions bring nothing but problems in the long run.
Many peoples may think than the situation is inversed; than it's the israelians than know nothing but violence and the palestinians are in this for survival.
The problem is than both way of thinking work .
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Old 2009-01-06, 16:07   Link #49
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
The Israelis are in this for their survival. They continually try to exist peacefully with the Palestinians but are met with violence at every turn. This problem is spilling over into Europe because of Europe's stupid belief in allowing unbridled immigration and allowing multiculturalism. This should be a lesson to us in the US that these actions bring nothing but problems in the long run.
Agreed. The Native Americans should never have left the Europeans set foot on their continent.
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Old 2009-01-06, 16:32   Link #50
mg1942
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Agreed. The Native Americans should never have left the Europeans set foot on their continent.

The Native Americans tried on numerous occasions to evict the Europeans, unfortunately for them they did not exceed. The war's over and they need to accept that the US exists.

The Palestinians and the rest of the Arab World need to accept that Israel exists and leave her be. Until they do, they will constantly be at war which the Israeli's will win.
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Old 2009-01-06, 16:38   Link #51
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Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
The Native Americans tried on numerous occasions to evict the Europeans, unfortunately for them they did not exceed. The war's over and they need to accept that the US exists.

The Palestinians and the rest of the Arab World need to accept that Israel exists and leave her be. Until they do, they will constantly be at war which the Israeli's will win.
they did it too late for it to work. If the NA had done it immediately as soon as the European's set foot on America it would have work.
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Old 2009-01-06, 16:45   Link #52
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
The Native Americans tried on numerous occasions to evict the Europeans, unfortunately for them they did not exceed. The war's over and they need to accept that the US exists.

The Palestinians and the rest of the Arab World need to accept that Israel exists and leave her be. Until they do, they will constantly be at war which the Israeli's will win.
Just as the Israeli need to accept that the Palestinians are there and don't want to starve. As has been said already, while the Israelis have perfectly good reasons to be pissed and, indeed, to bomb the crap out of Palestinians, the Palestinians also have perfectly good reasons to be pissed and, indeed, to bomb the crap out of Israelis. Even if their bombs aren't as good.

Neither side wants to die. Any solution that ignores that is no solution at all. Especially not genocide - morals set aside, it's just not practical. You'll only get more people homicidally pissed at you.
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Old 2009-01-06, 16:52   Link #53
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If the Palestinians had practiced non violent civil disobedience they would be celebrating the 25th anniversary of a fully independent Palestine.

Instead they nail bomb pizza parlors and buses.
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Old 2009-01-06, 17:00   Link #54
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Sorry... just getting this feeling of a type of police force that decides to eliminate the "gangster problem" by simply shooting in any likely direction on a crowded street until return fire stops....

They're simply guaranteeing that the innocent survivors will have nothing to live for other than revenge and becoming gangsters themselves....

I watched this sort of thing during the Cold War, the War on Drugs, etc ... there is a faction on each side that LIKES the status quo of violence because it allows them to increase personal power and authority. They'll never admit it but listening to particular spokespeople from both sides -- you can hear the symptoms.
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Old 2009-01-06, 17:08   Link #55
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
If the Palestinians had practiced non violent civil disobedience they would be celebrating the 25th anniversary of a fully independent Palestine.
Or their 60th birthday of not having a Palestine at all.
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Old 2009-01-06, 17:18   Link #56
mg1942
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Or their 60th birthday of not having a Palestine at all.
There was no Palestine before. There are references to it in the Holy Bible but never a state.

The Palestinians are wrong and they deserve what they are getting. Israel had no choice but to lock down that area due to Hamas's disregard for the treaties and their subsequent shelling of Israel. You don't get cooperation from someone that you continually kick.
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Old 2009-01-06, 18:08   Link #57
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Just as the Israeli need to accept that the Palestinians are there and don't want to starve. As has been said already, while the Israelis have perfectly good reasons to be pissed and, indeed, to bomb the crap out of Palestinians, the Palestinians also have perfectly good reasons to be pissed and, indeed, to bomb the crap out of Israelis. Even if their bombs aren't as good.

Neither side wants to die. Any solution that ignores that is no solution at all. Especially not genocide - morals set aside, it's just not practical. You'll only get more people homicidally pissed at you.
but the thing is we do want peace we will accept an agreement in which we both would stop fighting... and everyone who says that during the cease fire they stoped shoting rocks that is not true and that is the resone why we atked and for the first time in a long time which is deferent then other wars the israeli country is united and even the people that get atk agree that this operation is inevedble we just didnt have a choise
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Old 2009-01-06, 18:12   Link #58
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personally i think the best way to handle the situtation in the ME is to Nuke Jerusalem. and threaten to nuke whoever fires another shot. And also promise to nuke Mecca and every other holy places if the rest of the arab world would quiet down.
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Old 2009-01-06, 18:16   Link #59
mg1942
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Just as the Israeli need to accept that the Palestinians are there and don't want to starve. As has been said already, while the Israelis have perfectly good reasons to be pissed and, indeed, to bomb the crap out of Palestinians, the Palestinians also have perfectly good reasons to be pissed and, indeed, to bomb the crap out of Israelis. Even if their bombs aren't as good.

Neither side wants to die. Any solution that ignores that is no solution at all. Especially not genocide - morals set aside, it's just not practical. You'll only get more people homicidally pissed at you.

Israel has tried to let the Palestinian people live in peace and have even tried to help them.

Case in point, Israel sent in a convoy of 30 or 40 trucks with supplies and Hamas fired rockets at it so the Israeli's didn't send in any more convoys. Hamas digs tunnels under the border to kidnap Israeli soldiers to hold as hostage, Israel attacks the tunnel in order to destroy it and kills 6 Palestinians in the process so Hamas launches rockets into Israel in some sort of misguided sense of revenge.

The Muslims that are Israeli citizens live in peace with all the other Israeli's.
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Old 2009-01-06, 18:18   Link #60
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by TUndead View Post
but the thing is we do want peace we will accept an agreement in which we both would stop fighting... and everyone who says that during the cease fire they stoped shoting rocks that is not true and that is the resone why we atked and for the first time in a long time which is deferent then other wars the israeli country is united and even the people that get atk agree that this operation is inevedble we just didnt have a choise
Which goes back to my "they don't want to starve" thing.
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