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Old 2009-01-06, 05:41   Link #81
Matt Soulblade
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Ahhhhh, this OVA.

You know, Kotori. I just feel like, you know, nothing is impossible. Truly life is meaningful. We can forgive, we can forget. We can enjoy little things. The economic crisis will just go away. Hamas and Israel will get to understand each other. Kotori will find true happiness. Ah... yes, everything will be just like it is supposed to be.

Spoiler:


Also I wonder if ~if could get a PC port. That would be cool.
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Old 2009-01-06, 17:09   Link #82
Deathkillz
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My gosh with the forced drama all over again
ep1
Spoiler:
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Old 2009-01-06, 18:07   Link #83
dago2682
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Spoiler for Speculation:
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Old 2009-01-06, 18:09   Link #84
Tiberium Wolf
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Spoiler:
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Old 2009-01-06, 19:38   Link #85
cyberdemon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
My gosh with the forced drama all over again
ep1
Spoiler:
Spoiler for episode 1:

Last edited by cyberdemon; 2009-01-06 at 21:29.
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Old 2009-01-06, 20:42   Link #86
Shiroth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberium Wolf View Post
Spoiler:
She could have moved far away or something, we just don't know for sure yet. Probably is death though, i mean a lot of fingers were pointed that way.
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Old 2009-01-06, 22:11   Link #87
serenade_beta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
My gosh with the forced drama all over again
ep1
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Old 2009-01-06, 22:58   Link #88
Sorrow-K
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My contention still remains that when Da Capo first came out, it embodied everything wrong with visual novel conversions at the time, and Da Capo Second Season just accentuated all the flaws and lopped off the few good things about the first season. Da Capo II, while uninspiring, was at least something refreshingly different for the franchise, but Da Capo II Second Season was just the same old fairytale crap again. This... well, I had two completely different (and surprising) reactions to this that can be basically split into half episodes.

First half of OVA 1

Three points:

1. OH GOD Nemu is dead! YES!
2. OH GOD Kotori deserves better than Jun'ichi.
3. OH GOD this is boring.

Second half of OVA 1

Holy crap, that was about as close to genuinely dramatic as I think Da Capo has ever reached. I was completely surprised with myself, but I actually felt for these characters as they were, in essence, burying Nemu for a second time. Maybe it was the overwhelming emotions, but Da Capo's characters have never been compelling enough to work on just emotions by themselves. I guess it was because all the emotions were under the surface, but still displayed clearly enough that the audience had an idea what each character was thinking. Only Kotori was truly explicit with how she felt. It was a more subdued presentation of emotions and angst, which isn't typical for this franchise, since it tends to be so overwrought.

It could be an aberration, and I suspect it is, because, as I said, I just don't think DC's characters are nearly compelling enough for truly absorbing and moving drama. They only have one more OVA to cram in some character development to turn it around, and, in the case of Jun'ichi particularly, they'd need to pull off something monumental to make him sympathetic before the end of the next OVA. Well see what happens.
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Old 2009-01-06, 23:32   Link #89
Deathkillz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
Spoiler for episode 1:
That would be hilarious

Come to think, the tree was looking a bit more than half dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
Second half of OVA 1

Holy crap, that was about as close to genuinely dramatic as I think Da Capo has ever reached. I was completely surprised with myself, but I actually felt for these characters as they were, in essence, burying Nemu for a second time. Maybe it was the overwhelming emotions, but Da Capo's characters have never been compelling enough to work on just emotions by themselves. I guess it was because all the emotions were under the surface, but still displayed clearly enough that the audience had an idea what each character was thinking. Only Kotori was truly explicit with how she felt. It was a more subdued presentation of emotions and angst, which isn't typical for this franchise, since it tends to be so overwrought.

It could be an aberration, and I suspect it is, because, as I said, I just don't think DC's characters are nearly compelling enough for truly absorbing and moving drama. They only have one more OVA to cram in some character development to turn it around, and, in the case of Jun'ichi particularly, they'd need to pull off something monumental to make him sympathetic before the end of the next OVA. Well see what happens.
These feeling usually make me think that they should just get on with it rather than hanging back all the time...it may be different at first but over time it becomes a drag.

Though the sudden goodbye did make me think KimiNozu OVA...maybe the ending with the next episode will also
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Old 2009-01-06, 23:37   Link #90
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
just the same old fairytale crap again.
You crack me up in that you continue to watch all the series and its permutations knowing full well that Da Capo is all about "fairytale crap". It's not Da Capo without the sakura tree's magic, and I'd be surprised if they don't bring that into the story in its second half (even if it's to explain some of the events leading to this point). It's a story about an island where a never-whithering sakura tree makes people's dreams come true (but sometimes at a price). That's the premise, and yet you count it a fault when they delve into it. But if they didn't delve into it, that's abandoning the whole premise. There's a very specific reason she went running to the sakura tree (but we'll let the anime explain that).

It's almost like you're saying "Da Capo would be great if they made it into a completely different type of show, because I hate the sort of show they make". And you say it with a straight face, every time. And it still surprises me, to this day.
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Old 2009-01-07, 05:25   Link #91
Sorrow-K
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It might be a premise, but it's also a deus ex machina. When the show is at its strongest when it's not resorting to the sakura tree both to generate and then solve the dilemmas raised in the story, I don't see why it's unfair to criticize it for its excessive role in the story.

Edit: And anyway, I don't think Da Capo would be great if it abandoned the sakura tree, because the characters just aren't compelling enough, but I do think it would be better. Every time they resort to the sakura tree to resolve a conflict, it just strikes me as the writers using an easy out.
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Old 2009-01-07, 18:02   Link #92
Linly
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Finally Kotori in the center of attention(she deserves this BIG time)!!! I really want to know with who she will end up...
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Old 2009-01-07, 23:09   Link #93
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Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
It might be a premise, but it's also a deus ex machina. When the show is at its strongest when it's not resorting to the sakura tree both to generate and then solve the dilemmas raised in the story, I don't see why it's unfair to criticize it for its excessive role in the story.
No, it's not a deus ex machina, although it matches the literal meaning of the words. If "the machine" is the theme of the story, an ending that involves said machine can't be considered surprising or unexpected. And that's what a deus ex machina is all about. It's not simply about "magic providing a convenient solution to a problem", it's about a sudden, unexpected turn of events providing an unforeseen way out of an otherwise unsolvable problem. In other words "all of a sudden, this came out of nowhere and it's all better". You could never claim that Da Capo (in any of its incarnations) was like that. Because the sakura tree is arguably a (the?) "main character" of all the essential Da Capo story arcs, it's obvious all the story endings will revolve around the tree, and they drive this home constantly (even here in this OVA, to a degree). What's important, though, as with every fairy tale, is the moral of the story -- the lesson the characters learn.

Da Capo was never meant to be about "real human drama", despite your preference for that approach. That's why I find it funny that you keep on fishing for the "real human drama" (ignoring the magical undercurrents) in every incarnation, proclaiming that, the lesser part, to be the better part. This probably goes back to your philosophy of watching anything regardless of your predispositions, as opposed to only watching things you know you have a taste for. The net effect is simply that almost all your reviews (when the show does what it's famous for) read basically like "nope, I still don't like this genre". It's the old saying about someone who keeps doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. I guess you're a glutton for pain.

Basically, you watch a "fairytale show", and complain about the "fairytale crap". It's not entirely dislike watching a mecha anime and complaining about the "mecha crap", or a sports anime and complaining about the "sports crap". Maybe it's not "unfair", but it at least has a certain degree of irony. You should (and do) know better by now.
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Old 2009-01-08, 00:26   Link #94
passin'gass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
...It's a story about an island where a never-whithering sakura tree makes people's dreams come true (but sometimes at a price)....There's a very specific reason she went running to the sakura tree (but we'll let the anime explain that).
Its been a while, but i seem to remember, because of Sakura's wish, Nemu started coughing out petals and memory loss, including deteriorating health...

Spoiler:

Last edited by passin'gass; 2009-01-08 at 00:49. Reason: a bit more explanation
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Old 2009-01-08, 02:49   Link #95
holyman282
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
No, it's not a deus ex machina, although it matches the literal meaning of the words. If "the machine" is the theme of the story, an ending that involves said machine can't be considered surprising or unexpected. And that's what a deus ex machina is all about. It's not simply about "magic providing a convenient solution to a problem", it's about a sudden, unexpected turn of events providing an unforeseen way out of an otherwise unsolvable problem. In other words "all of a sudden, this came out of nowhere and it's all better". You could never claim that Da Capo (in any of its incarnations) was like that. Because the sakura tree is arguably a (the?) "main character" of all the essential Da Capo story arcs, it's obvious all the story endings will revolve around the tree, and they drive this home constantly (even here in this OVA, to a degree). What's important, though, as with every fairy tale, is the moral of the story -- the lesson the characters learn.

Da Capo was never meant to be about "real human drama", despite your preference for that approach. That's why I find it funny that you keep on fishing for the "real human drama" (ignoring the magical undercurrents) in every incarnation, proclaiming that, the lesser part, to be the better part. This probably goes back to your philosophy of watching anything regardless of your predispositions, as opposed to only watching things you know you have a taste for. The net effect is simply that almost all your reviews (when the show does what it's famous for) read basically like "nope, I still don't like this genre". It's the old saying about someone who keeps doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. I guess you're a glutton for pain.

Basically, you watch a "fairytale show", and complain about the "fairytale crap". It's not entirely dislike watching a mecha anime and complaining about the "mecha crap", or a sports anime and complaining about the "sports crap". Maybe it's not "unfair", but it at least has a certain degree of irony. You should (and do) know better by now.
Couldn't agree with you more relentless, I've also read a few of your reviews sorrow and no offence but the majority of which had a negative undertone to it. Perhaps it is as relentless puts it, you place yourself in a position where the anime that you watch are not the ones to your preference. To that it's no one's fault but your own. Being a critic doesn't necessarily mean you have to be critical all the time. Approach reviews with the intention of finding the good in the show you watch rather than the bad and you'll find it not only more enjoyable for you to write but also a bit easier on people who read those reviews. I'm not saying your reviews are bad, in fact I find all of them very sophisticated and in depth, off course my personal preference is to use that sophistication to highlight the good rather then the bad.

Also relentless that saying in fact was said by Einstein and the whole saying goes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert Einstein
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Off course no doubt in the context of experimentation. A bit off topic there lol.

The whole theme of Da Capo revolves around the sakura tree and it's magical properties. It carries the lesson that magic is no substitute to hard work and that there is no easy way out of a problem.
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Old 2009-01-08, 09:17   Link #96
Sorrow-K
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
What's important, though, as with every fairy tale, is the moral of the story -- the lesson the characters learn.
But what exactly have these characters learnt? Take Da Capo II SS as an example.
Spoiler for DCIISS:
That's such an unrewarding ending for the audience to watch, especially if there's no emotional connection with the characters. Da Capo has never had compelling characters, and there's a number of reasons for that (lack of depth, generic personalities, in some cases such as Nemu, really repulsive personalities and to a certain extent, just the way the show was presented).

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Da Capo was never meant to be about "real human drama", despite your preference for that approach. That's why I find it funny that you keep on fishing for the "real human drama" (ignoring the magical undercurrents) in every incarnation, proclaiming that, the lesser part, to be the better part. This probably goes back to your philosophy of watching anything regardless of your predispositions, as opposed to only watching things you know you have a taste for. The net effect is simply that almost all your reviews (when the show does what it's famous for) read basically like "nope, I still don't like this genre". It's the old saying about someone who keeps doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. I guess you're a glutton for pain.

Basically, you watch a "fairytale show", and complain about the "fairytale crap". It's not entirely dislike watching a mecha anime and complaining about the "mecha crap", or a sports anime and complaining about the "sports crap". Maybe it's not "unfair", but it at least has a certain degree of irony. You should (and do) know better by now.
It might be a fairytale but it's still drama. And, almost universally, drama hinges on characters. But, call it deus ex machina, call it something else, it's still weak writing when a single plot device both generates and solves the important conflicts that the characters face. I guess the way the characters use that device is supposed to be a reflection of their own flaws, which are then scrutinized by the story, but Da Capo's characters, especially the main ones, are flat. They're difficult to connect to, and as such the drama is uncompelling. Weak writing is one thing, and we could probably debate ad nauseam about what constitutes weak writing in this context and not get anywhere, but it's minor in comparison to the importance of finding characters worth sympathizing with, which, in my eyes, Da Capo as a franchise has never done a good job of supplying.

I have my preferences as far as genres are concerned. Everyone does. But I don't "hate" any single genre. I'm constantly grappling with the dilemma of figuring out just how much suspension of disbelief and tolerance for genre conventions one affords to a given title to be able see it with a "fair" eye. But, nonetheless, the less suspension of disbelief and the less tolerance for genre conventions I'm forced to concede, the more likely I am to be truly absorbed by the experience. At that point it's a matter of characters, storytelling and atmosphere (depending on the experience, since they're not always relevant). I mean, what's Da Capo's aim at its core? It's to deliver a moving and dramatic story. How does it go about it? Well, not too dissimilar to a lot of visual novel conversions based on renai game. So, why does a typical Da Capo anime end up uncompelling when something like Kanon or ef - a tale of memories (admittedly the latter isn't a completely fair comparison) ends up being moving and emotionally involving? That's the sort of question I mull over when I try to review these series. Part of the answer is inevitably "personal preferences", but that's definitely not the full answer, and, in all honesty, such a dismissive explanation is completely unsatisfactory to me. No one wants to read an opinion that has has its foundations in explicit "personal preferences" (in part because it comes off as an apologetic disclaimer), nor do I want to write opinions that attempt to reconcile everything I observe in terms of personal preferences. People read reviews to get a description and a recommendation; I write reviews to try to explain just why I reacted the way I did to a given anime, and not in terms of how I watched it (since I try to make a concerted effort to minimize just what influence "how I watch it" has on the experience, particularly expectations and genre biases, which I usually try to put to one side, except when an anime forces them to become an issue), since I've no interest in that, but in terms of what the anime itself presented, and what the anime makers have done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by holyman282 View Post
Couldn't agree with you more relentless, I've also read a few of your reviews sorrow and no offence but the majority of which had a negative undertone to it. Perhaps it is as relentless puts it, you place yourself in a position where the anime that you watch are not the ones to your preference. To that it's no one's fault but your own. Being a critic doesn't necessarily mean you have to be critical all the time. Approach reviews with the intention of finding the good in the show you watch rather than the bad and you'll find it not only more enjoyable for you to write but also a bit easier on people who read those reviews. I'm not saying your reviews are bad, in fact I find all of them very sophisticated and in depth, off course my personal preference is to use that sophistication to highlight the good rather then the bad.
So my reviews are sophisticated and in depth. What more can I really do? If my contention isn't based on an overall reaction, then aren't I basically being dishonest? I'm not going to watch an anime, have a mostly adverse reaction to it, and then try to figure out how I can focus on highlighting the "good" points at the expense of what I really thought. Usually I make an effort on presenting both the good things and bad things about an anime, as I've seen them, and give them as much focus within a review as I think they deserve. It's not about "enjoyment". I get enjoyment out of watching anime, I also get enjoyment out of writing reviews, hell I also get enjoyment out of writing posts like these, but that's not the point, that's entirely incidental to the process. If any of these things ever stopped being enjoyable, I'd simply stop doing them, but, again, that's not the point. I am trying my darndest to be fair, though. There are innumerable balances that one has to deal with when reviewing; striking the right balance is an ongoing (and gratifying) challenge.

I'm not a grumpy, joyless SOB that gets kicks out of giving your favourite anime bad reviews. I hate that image. I know a large portion of my recent reviews have leaned towards negativity, but, in all honesty, I didn't want it that way. I've wanted to write more positive reviews recently, but circumstances have prevented that. And, let's face it, it has been a pretty barren year for anime. Recently I counted the number of reviews I've written total, and it turned out that approx. 33% were positive (ie, 7+), ~25% were negative (ie, 4 or less) and the rest, ~42% were moderate/indifferent (5-6). I don't claim to be representative of the medium, but if someone were to breakdown these figures as approximations for the number of good, bad and average anime, I doubt people would be too objecting. If anything, people might cite Sturgeon's Law and point out only 10% of anime is any good.
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Old 2009-01-08, 20:50   Link #97
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This OVA brings back a lot of nostalgia. Finally Kotori fans can have something to celebrate.

Spoiler:
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Old 2009-01-08, 22:40   Link #98
AznSoulBoy
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Oh great, this really bring back memories. People that are posting here, i'm still regnonizing them X)...that never change haha!
Well, to think they would make Da Capo alternative ending...for all the feelings that I had for Da capo and Da capo SS. Ugh...I don't know what to say.
However, I'm quite happy that Kotori will be the main character even though...it reminds me the second season.
It was quite fun and frustrating to watch at the same time. The introduction was a win, seeing other characters bring back memories.
However, Kotori was right about to kiss with Asakura and they stopped because just a sound of a BOAT! OMG! WTH! (They sure like to tease us )
Then, Kotori is turning down Asakura...*sigh
The drama is still pretty good as always though and animation is superb too.
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Old 2009-01-09, 01:26   Link #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
But what exactly have these characters learnt? Take Da Capo II SS as an example.
Spoiler for DCIISS:
That's not how it ends at all, though, so... In any event, I completely disagree that Da Capo has never had compelling characters, even though this is the fundamental premise of your negative opinion. I find all the main characters quite compelling in the context of the stories being told. Despite the reasons you list, I simply can't agree with you. I also don't consider the writing to be weak for its use of the sakura tree, but I also don't share your interpretation of the story and its morals. So it should come as no surprise that my own rating would be hugely different than your own; I sometimes find myself wondering if we're even watching the same show to see the same facts in such different ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
since I try to make a concerted effort to minimize just what influence "how I watch it" has on the experience, particularly expectations and genre biases, which I usually try to put to one side, except when an anime forces them to become an issue
Just remember the chain of reflection: I observe -> I react -> I reflect -> I understand what I observed -> I understand my reaction -> I understand myself. Even though you try so hard to separate yourself from your statements of opinion, in the end it is still simply a way for you to explain your reaction to the show. You can't take the "you" out of the equation, because the chain begins and ends with you.

Also, objectively-stated subjectivity is still subjective. You're just couching your subjectivity behind logic that can be defended (perhaps because you believe your subjective opinion is logical; I personally believe my subjective opinion is both chaotic and logical). In other words, just because your reviews talk about the show, the characters, the plot, and so on (or just because you make statements like "Da Capo never had compelling characters"), doesn't mean that it isn't still actually about your opinion. Anyone who reads it knows that it's just "Sorrow-K's take", which is different than some other reviewer's take.

The dangerous logical trap to fall into here would be a belief that "because I state my opinions in an objective manner, my opinions are objective" (always false), which gives way to the natural consequence "opinions that can't be expressed in an objective manner are necessarily less valid or reasonable" (also always false). Objective tone is simply a way of discussing opinions that deflects attention away from the one doing the talking; it is simply about style/form. Opinions are always fundamentally personal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
Recently I counted the number of reviews I've written total, and it turned out that approx. 33% were positive (ie, 7+), ~25% were negative (ie, 4 or less) and the rest, ~42% were moderate/indifferent (5-6). I don't claim to be representative of the medium, but if someone were to breakdown these figures as approximations for the number of good, bad and average anime, I doubt people would be too objecting. If anything, people might cite Sturgeon's Law and point out only 10% of anime is any good.
One could also argue, based on these stats, that you have an exceptionally high failure rate at picking shows to watch that you would rate highly. I sometimes wonder if you must feel like you're "taking one for the team" or something by watching shows you consider so poor. But, we've discussed this before, and this is mostly because you and I have different philosophies about watching anime. I would give up on watching any show I consider negative and most shows I consider "moderate" before I'd get even near the time I'd consider writing a review.

In the end, to state it simply, what you have to come to terms with is that other people rate highly shows that you rate poorly. If you mislead yourself into thinking that your personal opinions are objective, then you only have two main choices: either other people are less informed ("ignorant"), or they're less capable of forming an informed opinion ("stupid"). And because I imagine that you would never be so arrogant to assume either of those would be true, I think the only other sensible option is to accept that opinions are subjective (even when observing the same facts). You and I can both see the same show in two different ways, and neither of us is necessarily either right or wrong for it.
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Old 2009-01-09, 03:57   Link #100
holyman282
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Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
It's not about "enjoyment". I get enjoyment out of watching anime, I also get enjoyment out of writing reviews, hell I also get enjoyment out of writing posts like these, but that's not the point, that's entirely incidental to the process. If any of these things ever stopped being enjoyable, I'd simply stop doing them, but, again, that's not the point. I am trying my darndest to be fair, though. There are innumerable balances that one has to deal with when reviewing; striking the right balance is an ongoing (and gratifying) challenge.
It seems from my observations that you enjoy writing reviews more then watching anime. If you enjoyed watching anime then most people would only choose the anime genres and shows they prefer watching over ones they don't. You on the other hand entered the Da Capo franchise knowing full well your dislike for the so called "fairy tail" theme of the story not once, not twice but 5 times (recent OVA included). Normally if someone really "enjoyed watching anime" they would stop maybe at the first 2 eps or at most the first season of the original Da Capo should they find it not to their taste and find a show that is more to their taste.

To me it seems you prioritize your enjoyment for writing reviews over your enjoyment for watching anime from the fact that even when you dislike the anime, you'll continue watching through it for the sake of writing a review saying how horrible it is. This kind of contradicts what you said about "if you disliked something you'd simply stop doing it", so if you disliked that anime then you'd simply stop watching it or not do a review about it, instead you take the task upon yourself to watch a show you simply did not enjoy then write a review stating how much you disliked it. So from the tone of your review and the motives behind you writing it, I see not a hint of objectivity in it.

There is nothing wrong with expressing one's own opinions, in fact what I'm writing now is my own opinion, but it's only when you write in such a way where the general tone of the review feels like they're telling the readers that their opinions are the only one that matters, that's when things get a little carried away. Unfortunately I feel that most reviews these days on anything lack the objectivity I use to feel from them, that or reviewers these days are having trouble hiding their subjectivity.
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