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Old 2009-01-13, 05:33   Link #1
Skyfall
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Romance in Macross (Take 2)

Welcome to the Romance in Macross (Take 2) discussion thread. The purpose of this thread is to provide a place where to discuss all things romance related within Macross potential pairings.

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Old 2009-01-13, 09:58   Link #2
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I would also like to add that posts should be actually on-topic as well. No meta posting about the reasons why the old thread was closed or why this thread doesn't have a poll. No whinging and whining that X only needed Y more votes. No demands as to what constitutes a shipping post. No comparisons to other forums as to how tame or obsessive this one is.

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Old 2009-01-13, 12:24   Link #3
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Perhaps I should give it a start XD

After watching the series, now to think back, the love triangle was not handled really well...I guess to define the term "Romance", the least requirement is that both must be thinking about each other strongly or explicitly admit that he/she loves her/him...We see that "romance" only in the pari Micheal/Klan and Ozma/Kathy actually...Michael at last admits he loves Klan before he dies and Ozma/Kathy was just a very typical relationship we get in anime...

About other pair, Luca thinks Nanasse strongly but that is too one-sided...Similiar things happen in LT, as Ranka thinks Alto strongly (Same as Sheryl too I guess), but Alto very seldomly thinks about those two when he doesn't see them. What I mean is that he is lacking some "soliloquy" to reveal to audiences so we have a better chance to know who he cares more..the closest examples towards Ranka are running towards stair madly in ep 21? and the one of the very few "soliloquy" he displays during the show in ep 23...towards Sheryl...I can only think of that ep 24...and even at that scene, Sheryl kisses Alto initially...

I hope I will see more "insight thought" from Alto about those two lovable ladies in the movie, so audiences have more resource to analyze the LT

Does this post fit the requirement mod XD?

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Old 2009-01-13, 13:17   Link #4
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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
Does this post fit the requirement mod XD?

Sincerely,
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I hope that's rhetorical lol, the mods just want us to be more civil in discussions and actually stay on topic.


Now as for the discussion, I'm glad this thread was made. This makes things much easier to discuss. Now let me get back on topic xD, ok guys I want to hear the opinions from everyone because this is something that has been bothering me for quite a while now. My main topic that I would like everyone to discuss is Symbolism, now I've seen people talk about everything from Alto's paper planes to Sheryl's earrings, I would like to hear what kind of symbolism everyone has caught that represents any romance between the couples, even the earrings if you honestly believe that it represents something. Besides the 2 obvious and maybe some other obvious objects could represent the romance between each pairing.

I've been really thinking about some things lately and I think this could be an interesting topic to discuss seeing as how there are plenty of people that feel strongly towards certain pairings, whether it be AltoxSheryl, AltoxRanka, OzmaxCathy, KlanxMichel even LucaxNanase or whoever else you feel is acceptable as a couple. If anyone has some hidden symbols that some of us might have missed, please begin explaining what the object is and what the symbol could mean and of course to which pairing it leans towards most.

Now discuss away
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Old 2009-01-13, 13:58   Link #5
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I think that romance hinges on how the feelings of the characters are expressed. It's not enough for the writers to simply state that a character is in love; the audience has to witness it through the character's interactions.

In the case of Michael and Klan, we're introduced to their relationship after it has already matured. The audience is fully aware of the fact that Michael loves Klan well before he makes his statement to that effect. As such, the purpose of that line was not to inform, but to drive home the message that he was too late in admitting to his feelings.

I think the problem with Luca's relationship with Nanase wasn't that it was one-sided. For one thing, while he was interested in her, his feelings never struck me as being particularily intense, prior to Nanase's injury. Likewise, when she was hurt, he didn't seem particularily conflicted about leaving her behind (in fact, his reaction to that scene is curiously absent).

While this might have been because there wasn't enough time to focus on his feelings, the impression that I got was that Luca seemed to use Nanase's injury (and Michael's death) as a reason to justify his continued involvement with Leon, to himself.

I think the main love triangle, however, was done quite well. The suspense in the story hinges on the fact that we don't know Alto well enough to understand his feelings until near the very end of the story. It's not really an issue of whom he loves more (how do you love someone 'more', anyways?) - it's just that his relationships with each of the two girls is different.

As for symbols, well... I guess you'd have to discuss them under a specific context. Even for something as ubiquitous as Alto's paper planes, the same symbol can convey different meanings in different scenes.
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Old 2009-01-13, 17:12   Link #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
I think that romance hinges on how the feelings of the characters are expressed. It's not enough for the writers to simply state that a character is in love; the audience has to witness it through the character's interactions.

In the case of Michael and Klan, we're introduced to their relationship after it has already matured. The audience is fully aware of the fact that Michael loves Klan well before he makes his statement to that effect. As such, the purpose of that line was not to inform, but to drive home the message that he was too late in admitting to his feelings.

I think the problem with Luca's relationship with Nanase wasn't that it was one-sided. For one thing, while he was interested in her, his feelings never struck me as being particularily intense, prior to Nanase's injury. Likewise, when she was hurt, he didn't seem particularily conflicted about leaving her behind (in fact, his reaction to that scene is curiously absent).

While this might have been because there wasn't enough time to focus on his feelings, the impression that I got was that Luca seemed to use Nanase's injury (and Michael's death) as a reason to justify his continued involvement with Leon, to himself.

I think the main love triangle, however, was done quite well. The suspense in the story hinges on the fact that we don't know Alto well enough to understand his feelings until near the very end of the story. It's not really an issue of whom he loves more (how do you love someone 'more', anyways?) - it's just that his relationships with each of the two girls is different.

As for symbols, well... I guess you'd have to discuss them under a specific context. Even for something as ubiquitous as Alto's paper planes, the same symbol can convey different meanings in different scenes.
You're always so wrong, Swampeh!!! I can't even bring myself to ship cheeseXSwamp anymore, now. Le sigh. (I kid, of course.

Anyway, as hindsight is 20/20, I think alot of it comes down to the switch in writing staff midstream, as well as the whole war aspect. A pair like LucaXNana was almost comic relief at first, and evolved into... well, it evolved, anyway. As did MichaelXKlan, putting the nails into the coffin of my MichaelXSheryl ship... sigh. I mean I think Ohnogi did an excellent job evolving almost all of the characters, but there's still a tinge of a lack of consistency from the beginning of the series until the ending... I wonder how (and where) the movie is going to start, much less how it ends, now that it's all going to be under one writer...
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Old 2009-01-13, 17:19   Link #7
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You're always so wrong, Swampeh!!! I can't even bring myself to ship cheeseXSwamp anymore, now. Le sigh.

Anyway, as hindsight is 20/20, I think alot of it comes down to the switch in writing staff midstream, as well as the whole war aspect. A pair like LucaXNana was almost comic relief at first, and evolved into... well, it evolved, anyway. As did MichaelXKlan, putting the nails into the coffin of my MichaelXSheryl ship... sigh. I mean I think Yoshino did an excellent job evolving almost all of the characters, but there's still a tinge of a lack of consistency from the beginning of the series until the ending...
Uh, the who whatting how with huh? Yeah, Ohnogi took over the Sheryl storyline, because Kawamori ran out of ideas of what to do with her, but you seem to be suggesting that the whole writing staff switched over. Ive never heard of that, and would like to get that sourced, if you dont mind.

And I frankly dont see the inconsistency in the characters at all, unless you are referring to Ranka, who seemed to revert constantly. The rest of them seemed to evolve very naturally into their relationships. Where exactly do you see this lack of consistency?
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Old 2009-01-13, 17:40   Link #8
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Uh, the who whatting how with huh? Yeah, Ohnogi took over the Sheryl storyline, because Kawamori ran out of ideas of what to do with her, but you seem to be suggesting that the whole writing staff switched over. Ive never heard of that, and would like to get that sourced, if you dont mind.

And I frankly dont see the inconsistency in the characters at all, unless you are referring to Ranka, who seemed to revert constantly. The rest of them seemed to evolve very naturally into their relationships. Where exactly do you see this lack of consistency?
So, you think the ending of the series was perfectly consistent with all that came before it? Ok, cool. I didn't really think so, personally, but I was sure there were people that were 100% happy with it.

As far as Ohnogi getting carte blanche... meh that one should be self explanatory. You can't completely redefine the focus of the main characters and have it not trickle down throughout the rest of the series/characters/storylines, no matter how many of the early writers were still left.

For the record I was more or less agreeing with/elaborating on Swamp's commentary, but like... I can't admit to it, you know?

...back to the shadows I go...
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Old 2009-01-13, 17:47   Link #9
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So, you think the ending of the series was perfectly consistent with all that came before it? Ok, cool. I didn't really think so, personally, but I was sure there were people that were 100% happy with it.
Ah, no no no. Episode 25 is a whole another thing and I thought that was established already in the Macross community here. I consider the development from episodes 1 - 24 to be very consistent, episode 25 did mostly ignore lots of the issues facing the characters, because Kawamori seemed ( to me ) to prefer that everybody is happy at the end.

I think the series would have been better served by around five more episodes to get all relationship and character arcs resolved.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
As far as Ohnogi getting carte blanche... meh that one should be self explanatory. You can't completely redefine the focus of the main characters and have it not trickle down throughout the rest of the series/characters/storylines, no matter how many of the early writers were still left.

For the record I was more or less agreeing with/elaborating on Swamp's commentary, but like... I can't admit to it, you know?

...back to the shadows I go...
I see your point that some character arcs underwent dramatic changes, but on the whole those changes seemed to come naturally, out of things that had happened on the show before. From the well developed characters, the only one who, IMO, had not a satisfactory progression was Ranka.
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Old 2009-01-13, 19:49   Link #10
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Hmm. From my opinion Luca had some flaws at the end. I did not see that he had a mentionable improvement. In terms of romance I had not the feeling that he had impressed Nanase. I accept that they may be a potential romance but the chances are 40:60.

Which romance impressed me most was Colonel Wilder and Monica because of their improvement from superior and subordinate to a peer in future.

We should wait for the 50th anniversary. This will give a lot of time to create multiple trianglers, romances and heroic deaths of pilots.
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Old 2009-01-14, 21:29   Link #11
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I felt like rewatching Macross F the other day and Ranka is not as bad as I remembered. Sure, shes made some rather retarded decisions here and there, looks like twelve and needs to be rescued all the time, but shes a nice kid at heart.


Of course, the love triangle is absolutely one-sided. There was barely any chemistry between Alto and Ranka.
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Old 2009-01-14, 23:40   Link #12
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*yawns* Discussing the LT is a neverending fight; and I pretty much disagree with everything that's said about the matter xD

Although...
Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
About other pair, Luca thinks Nanasse strongly but that is too one-sided...Similiar things happen in LT, as Ranka thinks Alto strongly (Same as Sheryl too I guess), but Alto very seldomly thinks about those two when he doesn't see them. What I mean is that he is lacking some "soliloquy" to reveal to audiences so we have a better chance to know who he cares more..the closest examples towards Ranka are running towards stair madly in ep 21? and the one of the very few "soliloquy" he displays during the show in ep 23...towards Sheryl...I can only think of that ep 24...and even at that scene, Sheryl kisses Alto initially...
I agree so much with all of this! ^^


LucaxNanase is an interesting one because it's...sudden? It's one-sided, indeed; but the thing that amaze me is, how quickly it changed from a crush, to love. We can see for a long time that Luca likes Nanase, but he really never makes anything about that. It could have stayed as a random crush, but then...she was injured. And suddenly we discover that Luca's madly in love for Nanase (and she doesn't even know it!) Too rushed for my tastes.

OzmaxCathy is a really cute couple; there's nothing more to say about them. They look good together.

Aww, I really like MichaelxKlan...In fact, Michael's death disgusts me a little. For a series with so much fights and battles, of all the major characters (leaving aside Grace), just Michael dies? It's unfair. At least, they could have made more important deaths, adding with that a little bit of drama!
Poor Klan. No doubt why the production like her so much; she really had the worst part.
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Old 2009-01-15, 00:00   Link #13
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@kasumicc

Thanks..it's not very common that ppl agree with me in this forum ..

Well I only hope in the movie that Michael will admit his love to Klan a little bit eariler (or they are already a couple in the Movie) so they will have some happy times before Micheal dies again in the movie (I really doubt the movie will change the utlimate fate of Micheal)...tho I don't know whether those "happy times" will make Klan even more sad when Micheal dies
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Old 2009-01-15, 00:08   Link #14
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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
towards Sheryl...I can only think of that ep 24...and even at that scene, Sheryl kisses Alto initially...
There is Star Date, the episode where Alto carried Sheryl into his bunker. And the pivotal moment in 22, which was all Alto. I hope you aren't forgetting these on purpose.

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Old 2009-01-15, 00:23   Link #15
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Star Date, do you mean the scene where Alto carries Sheryl into his locker?? That was episode 5?? They just met for the third time? and LT hasn't really started yet

And that "pivotal moment" in 22, unfortunely Sheryl's sickness does contribute a bit there...Of course, "sickness plot" is nothing new in other romance series, male lead sometimes pick the one who has sickness and sometimes he realizes he loves the other one. But in my opinion, the LT hasn't handled well because in 22, we don't know how big the sickness from Sheryl has influenced Alto's judgement (and we never know that even when the series finishes), then we see Alto's speech in 23 regarding Ranka, in ep 24 Sheryl says stop playing the lover game...Alto was trying to say something, but we never know what he was trying to say, and in ep 25, Alto says you two are both my wing....

So I think audiences still have not enough resource to analyze Alto's deep feeling towards Ranka/Sheryl...he just thinks of them not enough XD
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Old 2009-01-15, 00:36   Link #16
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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
in 22, we don't know how big the sickness from Sheryl has influenced Alto's judgement
Or maybe because Sheryl was actually one to think about him? Even at the point of death, and not always me me text text all the time?

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Old 2009-01-15, 00:49   Link #17
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That would be if we'd stop watching at episode 22. Episode 23 was all about Sheryl doing the "me this, me that" stuff. Even Alto complains that's not the Sheryl he used to know (Luckily, Sheryl redeemed herself on Episode 24)

Anyway, there aren't good examples of selflessness on MF. Speaking of Alto...everyone was waiting for him on his birthday, but he preferred to follow Sheryl. And not because he wanted to be with her; but because he wanted to fly
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Old 2009-01-15, 00:51   Link #18
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...and sadly Ranka never redeemed herself.

Damn. It really amuses me how you guys make Sheryl seem like the badly underdeveloped character while Ranka is the character who deserves everything.
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Old 2009-01-15, 01:03   Link #19
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I think she did, and more than Sheryl At least, if one can consider that thinking about the Vajras is a big deal.

And, while it's true that Sheryl gave up on Alto for his sake, people tend to forget that she wasn't the first one on doing that...
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Old 2009-01-15, 01:35   Link #20
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Originally Posted by kasumicc View Post
I think she did, and more than Sheryl At least, if one can consider that thinking about the Vajras is a big deal.

And, while it's true that Sheryl gave up on Alto for his sake, people tend to forget that she wasn't the first one on doing that...
Seriously, does selfishly taking a single fighter plane and going on a self discovery trip, as the producers stated, can be called development?

Anyway, Ranka acted selfishly most of the time peaking with her resolve to fly away from Frontier. Getting caught and being used while waiting for the Shining Knight VF Clad Alto is rather funny to watch.
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