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Old 2009-01-15, 08:44   Link #261
Mentar
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Well, that's been quite interesting...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
Depends what you mean by "circles", because IIRC, True Tears got pretty mixed reactions on the blogosphere. I initially started out very enthusiastic about True Tears, I thought it was going to be something special, but as the characters became more erratic, I became more indifferent, and ended up being very disappointed. True Tears I wouldn't say was a failure, I'd just say it didn't live up to its potential. KGNE is definitely a failure, IMO.
Well, on most rating sites, both True Tears and especially KGNE get exceptionally high marks, and when you look how much activity in responses and heated discussions both shows generated, I'd say it's at least uncontested that they were very popular. Personally, I'd go even further: These shows are primarily dramas with romance as theme. The shows you are going to list are romance animes, with a bit of drama. The focus is different.

So letsee...

Quote:
I'm glad you asked about what I consider to be good romance drama, because it's one of my favourite genres in anime. Maison Ikkoku is a classic, and Honey and Clover is a modern day classic, and I'd even go so far to suggest that the sequel is a masterpiece (that's not a word I throw around lightly).
Maison Ikkoku is a nice romance comedy, I wouldn't list it as drama - the handful of serious episodes are rather the exception than the rule. Honey&Clover is probably the highest-rated romance show I never managed to really warm up to. Sorry. Hagu was consistently getting on my nerves, and seeing Takemoto snail along past her with the energy and confidence of a wet noodle grated on my nerves. Seeing the likable Takumi hardwired the wrong way, and the adorable Ayumi consistently screwed over didn't help my enjoyment either. As a rule of thumb, I tend to root for whoever tries the hardest and needs the most, and H&C rewarded the exact opposite of that (as long as I watched ^_^; )

Quote:
[loooong list of good anime deleted]
You notice the difference between KimiNozo and the animes you listed yourself, right? The characters AND the settings have one crucial difference:

For essentially all animes you listed, the main characters are dripping "good". They're fundamentally decent people. They act decently. Even in the dramatic moments, they almost universally do the "right" things, and if they don't, they tend to repent very quickly. The drama moments tend to circle around misunderstandings, shyness and unchangeable "fate" kind of things like illnesses or death. The "white" kind of drama.

The KimiNozo class of anime are different. Here, we are treated to less-than-honorable actions and motivations. Here, driving factors also include negative ones like jealousy, envy, bitterness, disappointment or hate. The characters aren't fundamentally _good_, but fundamentally _human_, as in they have their strengths AND flaws. The confrontations do NOT have good endings for most of the characters. They tend to end unfulfilled and with their feelings hurt, and often enough even the "winning" couple is battered and needs to start from scratch. We don't see merely the beauty, but also the ugly. And while they may be completely over-the-top at times (think School Days anime endings), the way to the endings are usually more realistic in my experiences.

To use an analogy, you listed romance anime which tended to have the "clean" form or romantic pursuit, like filtered high-class wheat flour at baking. You get the artsy forms like H&C which are like croissants, sweet tarts like Clannad or decent middle-of-the-road romance bagels like Kare Kano. Occasionally they have a sour drama filling (AIR, ef), but the prevalent taste is and remains sweet, because most of the ugly grist is filtered out.

Following this metaphor, I'm more of a guy who is enjoying coarse rye bread. I want the ugly, too, because this is what makes the story feel _real_ to me. This is something I could also personally relate to, the ups AND the downs. It will be tasting more bitter, and it is much harder to chew. But then again, it feels more satisfying to me

Quote:
The problem with the likes of True Tears and KGNE is that they come off as too heavy handed. I guess one could make the argument, what makes this any different from Bokura ga Ita or ef - a tale of memories, and I'd say it's characters. For whatever reason, the characters in these anime reached me, but the characters in True Tears and KGNE failed to (spectacularly so in the latter case).
Why fail? Because you didn't like them? This is where KGNE spectacularly SUCCEEDED, because all characters were very distinct, and their motivations were also perfectly explicable too. You might have wanted to tear your hairs out over some decisions the characters made, but they were REAL. Not a single character in the show is what I'd call evil or malicious, and look what a beautiful and deep story was woven around it, and it even tackled an overall interesting theme, namely "what to do if someone you loved dearly and then was gone/dead for many years comes back".

Whether or not you like characters is entirely subjective and not open to debate. I just get the impression that you seem to develop a dislike for characters who do the "ugly". Could that be true?
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Old 2009-01-15, 09:49   Link #262
Sorrow-K
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Why fail? Because you didn't like them? This is where KGNE spectacularly SUCCEEDED, because all characters were very distinct, and their motivations were also perfectly explicable too. You might have wanted to tear your hairs out over some decisions the characters made, but they were REAL. Not a single character in the show is what I'd call evil or malicious, and look what a beautiful and deep story was woven around it, and it even tackled an overall interesting theme, namely "what to do if someone you loved dearly and then was gone/dead for many years comes back".

Whether or not you like characters is entirely subjective and not open to debate. I just get the impression that you seem to develop a dislike for characters who do the "ugly". Could that be true?
You mean sex? Are you kidding me. A lot of the anime I listed involve sex, at least implicitly.

I just think sympathizing with the characters or at least understanding them is a necessity for drama. If we take KGNE as an example, there's no real deep exploration of Takayuki's character, because, well, he's not all that interesting and deep a character. And he's certainly not sympathetic.
Spoiler for KGNE:
That's utterly uninteresting to me. It might be "real", but it's also a cheap way to generate drama, since the drama hinges on the characters being uncomplicated, and acting out propelled by the worst of their emotions (as you say, jealousy, envy, hate, etc). It's "real" in the same way that reality TV is "real", a display of human nature at it's most dissonant (I probably could have thought of a better word) in a contrived situation, but it's not complex and it's not deep. If you want to fish around for a message in a show like KGNE, it's basically that people act like asses to each other when something bad happens, and unmitigated it can spiral out of control, especially when emotions are involved. So what? That's basic, I don't need to be told that. So the show has a lack of insightful meaning, a lack of sympathetic characters and a lack of character analysis to at least make them be interesting to the audience. With KGNE, I'm basically watching losers doing stupid things and angsting about it. At that point, it doesn't matter if the show has succeeded in making the characters repulsive. It's failed as a compelling drama, because I can't find a reason to care what happens. Proponents like to dress KGNE up as a complex drama, but at its heart it's simple and straightforward, certainly when you compare it to something like ef - memories, which is filled to the brim with themes. KGNE, I guess you could say, is driven by emotions alone. I just don't go for anime like that.

If we want to talk about losers in anime, I guess we can talk about Kaiji. I know it's a different genre, but I think the comparison is a good one. He makes stupid decisions and gets himself into unnecessarily desperate situations because of it. But he still does things which make him sympathetic to the audience. His story is basically one of ongoing redemption; each time he makes a mistake, he's basically forced to make amends somehow or face death. And he does this by fighting back, by acting courageously and thinking things through. He frequently survives against the odds, which is the appeal of watching him face his challenges. But he also learns along the way, about himself, about humanity. He has epiphanies which act as an insight into what makes his character tick. But this also makes his eyes an ideal lens through which the show can explore a lot of the ideas and concepts it wants to, a lot of which involve the darker side of society and human nature, this "reality" you were talking about. It's an exploration of an aspect of reality that doesn't need to be emotionally overbearing to work. It lets the images speak for themselves, rather than trying to force a certain emotion upon the audience, which is why I think it's a superior exploration to anything in KGNE. I guess you could say that's an apples and oranges comparison, but this is basically why I consider something like Kaiji to be a far better drama to something like KGNE. Kaiji might have been over the top (not as much as KGNE), but it's gritty and dark, but doesn't dwell on angst or feel like the emotional investment needs to be spelled out for the drama to work. It has a lead character who is both well developed and analyzed over the course of the story, a character that embodies both the good and bad things about man, and it says a lot of interesting things about society and existential philosophy, and presents them with a deftness that makes its themes memorable and eye-opening. This is why I'd put Kaiji on a pedastal over KGNE as far as drama is concerned. One is, in my eyes, much more meaningful and evocative than the other, which frequently comes off as forced.
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Old 2009-01-15, 10:18   Link #263
tzia_n
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I can't put my finger on whether I like this series or not. It's slow as hell and the mood seems to be stale. But oddly enough, I'm semi interested at what will actually happen. I guess I'll give it a third episode and see whether I'm able to feel anything for any of the characters.
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Old 2009-01-15, 11:08   Link #264
meh
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Felt this was basically a wasted episode, with nothing really happening. I guess being based on a visual novel you'd expect many females getting along with the main character, but for an anime this really needs to be cut down, especially since they all have nothing to do with each other.

It seems to be either a harem ending or a boat ending. School Days 2.0 FTW!
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Old 2009-01-15, 13:12   Link #265
NoOneKnowS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meh View Post
Felt this was basically a wasted episode, with nothing really happening. I guess being based on a visual novel you'd expect many females getting along with the main character, but for an anime this really needs to be cut down, especially since they all have nothing to do with each other.

It seems to be either a harem ending or a boat ending. School Days 2.0 FTW!
Well of course It'll feel that way. Somehow this series has a slice of life feel to it. But another nice boat ending? No thanks. Not that I didn't like SD. It was good, though I hope White Album can at least give more something the likes of KGNE or some other mature romance shows.
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Old 2009-01-15, 13:19   Link #266
4Tran
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You know, when there are long posts made that barely mention the show at hand, it's obvious that a thread is going off-topic. The occasional comparison to other shows is fine, but can we concentrate more on White Album itself. Sorrow-K, it seems like you don't care for the style of show like Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, but you should accomodate the fact that there are going to be people who have vastly different tolerances than you do. I don't think that White Album is going to be quite the same kind of show, so you might be able to find something in it more appealing.

As for White Album itself, I'm still not quite sold on it, but my impression has greatly improved after rewatching the first couple of episodes. I've taken a liking to Akira and Rina, but I find it hard to warm to Yuki and Touya. But the main thing that's keeping me from liking the show more is the direction itself. My main gripes here are the inner voice monologue and some of the more unusual flourishes used.

For the former, I'm of the mindset that any thoughts expressed that way can (and should) be shown through non-verbal means. Writing it out plainly like that seems to be a case of "tell, don't show". For an example of the latter, the very first scene of the series, the dream sequence in the cafe, is one of the most aggravating scenes I've watched in a long time. I actually like this kind of direction for more surreal or stylized works, but I find it grating for more straightforward fare like White Album. It's also the reason why I had to rewatch those episodes - it takes more effort to watch the show than should be required. We'll see if it manages to improve from here.
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Old 2009-01-15, 16:10   Link #267
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
You mean sex? Are you kidding me. A lot of the anime I listed involve sex, at least implicitly.
Did you see me talking about sex _anywhere_? With "doing the ugly" I mean acting jealously, lashing out to hurt others, etc. Just read what I wrote.

And sorry, I don't think your following tirade contains anything worth commenting on. Sorry for somehow getting you to blow a gasket. Just forget it.

Last edited by Mentar; 2009-01-15 at 16:33.
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Old 2009-01-15, 20:08   Link #268
Onibaba
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glad they finally got around to making this a series...has there been any indication on how long the series will run?
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Old 2009-01-15, 20:33   Link #269
Sorrow-K
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Did you see me talking about sex _anywhere_? With "doing the ugly" I mean acting jealously, lashing out to hurt others, etc. Just read what I wrote.

And sorry, I don't think your following tirade contains anything worth commenting on. Sorry for somehow getting you to blow a gasket. Just forget it.
Oh come on. That's not fair. I put together a reasoned argument explaining, in detail, why I prefer one form of drama over the over, and you wave it away and call it a "tirade". There was one line, one line right at the start where I misinterpreted what you were saying and was unnecessarily terse, but the rest of it was completely unemotional.

I don't get angry when people question my taste in anime. Why would I? It almost always leads to such interesting discussions, like the one we were having before you tainted it with a demeaning question of my state-of-mind. But I do get angry when someone questions something personal about me, my motives or my state-of-mind, like you did just now. It's a cheap, demeaning way to bring into question everything I wrote by saying "oh, he just blew a gasket for some reason".

It doesn't bother me if you don't want to continue this discussion, but you can't have the last word by making a patently false accusation about me, personally. We're way off topic now, so if you do want to continue, post a message in my Profile. I'd have done likewise with this one, but I felt like my reputation was at stake, which is pretty much the only time when I'll get defensive.
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Old 2009-01-15, 20:51   Link #270
MercFH
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I forgot to ask, is the Visual Novel H-game or not?
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Old 2009-01-15, 21:14   Link #271
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Old 2009-01-15, 21:29   Link #272
meh
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Originally Posted by NoOneKnowS View Post
Well of course It'll feel that way. Somehow this series has a slice of life feel to it. But another nice boat ending? No thanks. Not that I didn't like SD. It was good, though I hope White Album can at least give more something the likes of KGNE or some other mature romance shows.
Well, the boat ending thing was kind of a joke. I don't think any anime besides School Days is capable of that.

But on the slice of life thing, I understand that. But even as a slice of life show nothing happened. There does come to a point where you can be "too slow". I think the show is trying to incorporate too many characters and storylines, which is fine if it's a 30 hour-long episodes Korean drama, but not if you're a 13/26 episode anime.
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Old 2009-01-15, 22:46   Link #273
aohige
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I forgot to ask, is the Visual Novel H-game or not?
Yes, yes it is.
The original PC version is, not the PS3 version (obviously).
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Old 2009-01-17, 12:39   Link #274
Julius Firefocht
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I just watched the live stream of White Album.

Rina made an impressive show of power in this episode, interrupting a recording just to slap Touya hard. I have no idea why, though I can venture a guess or two. Unlike most other anime out there, I find White Album nearly impossible to understand without subs.
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Old 2009-01-17, 12:50   Link #275
Mentar
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Quick drop-in from the Uppcon...

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Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
Oh come on. That's not fair. I put together a reasoned argument explaining, in detail, why I prefer one form of drama over the over, and you wave it away and call it a "tirade". There was one line, one line right at the start where I misinterpreted what you were saying and was unnecessarily terse, but the rest of it was completely unemotional.
Unemotional... let me quote exercepts: "utterly uninteresting... cheap... most dissonant... contrived... act like asses... lack of insightful meaning, a lack of sympathetic characters and a lack of character analysis to at least make them be interesting to the audience... losers doing stupid things... repulsive... failed as a compelling drama". If that's your idea of "unemotional", I sure don't want to see you angry. You also made no single "reasoned argument" I could discern from the rambling, all you do is to _claim_ "it failed" without giving a credible reason why. And if you're so blinded by your disgust that you failed to notice the intricately painted web of motivations of _all_ characters, how their relationships developed and changed over time, and why the anime ended the way it did, then there's no point in discussing that with you. The difference in perception is way too big.

Why go over the dozens of heated discussions over issues which took place back then during KGNE? Should Takayuki have waited? When should he have stopped? Was Mitsuki justified in making her move? Should she have taken Takayuki under her wings in the first place? How far does responsibility go? What about Akane's anger? How should Haruka deal with the situation? And most prominently, what was the true meaning of Haruka's book at the end (one of the most wonderful allegories I've ever seen, btw)? All these questions are meaningless according to you?

I like ef - it was a nice couple of more or less unrelated stories. The Chihiro story had an excellent climax in the second to last episode, but the resolution didn't quite satisfy me - "love conquers all" is no message which gets me excited. And the other triangle was also highly enjoyable (I liked the phone call including timer), but it most certainly didn't have the complexity and depth of Kiminozo. Not by a long shot. What were all these "themes" that I missed? (Well, not just me - compared to the KimiNozo frenzy, there were nearly no discussions in the ef thread - guess I wasn't the only one). But then again, there's little point in discussing our personal preferences if the difference is so vast.

Quote:
I don't get angry when people question my taste in anime. Why would I? It almost always leads to such interesting discussions, like the one we were having before you tainted it with a demeaning question of my state-of-mind. But I do get angry when someone questions something personal about me, my motives or my state-of-mind, like you did just now. It's a cheap, demeaning way to bring into question everything I wrote by saying "oh, he just blew a gasket for some reason".
Your reply was very heated - see above - and as you later implicitly admit you WERE angry. And I didn't question your motives or state-of-mind, I asked - politely - if my observation that all the animes you listed yourselves were of the "clean" romance anime kind should be interpreted as "You have a preference for this kind of show". This is "tainting"? Still, after whatever you wrote, I think that you DO have this preference. And it's absolutely fine to have it. Why wouldn't it be?

Quote:
It doesn't bother me if you don't want to continue this discussion, but you can't have the last word by making a patently false accusation about me, personally. We're way off topic now, so if you do want to continue, post a message in my Profile. I'd have done likewise with this one, but I felt like my reputation was at stake, which is pretty much the only time when I'll get defensive.
Again, I didn't accuse you of anything, I asked you a very reasonable and justified question in a very polite way: "Could that be true?" - you obviously 1) misunderstood the question itself and 2) blew up on it, while pretending later not to. Then you bash me for something I didn't do in the first place and demand that from now on I keep it on PM?

*shakes his head and returns to the con*

Last edited by Skyfall; 2009-01-18 at 03:59.
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Old 2009-01-17, 13:00   Link #276
HayashiTakara
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I think I can already figure out whats going to happen. Because of Touya's insecurities about his relationship with Yuki, he's going to end up being unfaithful and sleep with the other girls of the series. Theres going to obvious angst and drama brought about. But I think in the end, things will be amended and Touya and Yuki will end up together again. Just call it a hunch. If I'm right, I'll quote myself on this XD
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Old 2009-01-17, 13:12   Link #277
Thingle
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Rina will eat Yuki ALIVE because of the latter's meek persona. I can smell the nice boat ten weeks away.
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Old 2009-01-17, 13:16   Link #278
kk2extreme
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dont tell me... this show has already taken on the "nice boat" sydrome , im expecting a less shocking conclusion but still powerful like KGNE
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Old 2009-01-17, 14:09   Link #279
germanturkey
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hmm, eclipse's release is delayed this week? shame. monday is my day off too
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Old 2009-01-17, 14:15   Link #280
sirn
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The third episode.

Spoiler for Episode 3:
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