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Old 2009-01-17, 14:18   Link #281
FlareKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thingle View Post
Rina will eat Yuki ALIVE because of the latter's meek persona. I can smell the nice boat ten weeks away.
Really don't think its going to get that far. Do wonder how things will go with Haruka and Misaki? Touya definitely knows how Akira feels in regards to Misaki so really don't think the line will get crossed there.

Did put down some thoughts on the second episode though its a little late.
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Old 2009-01-17, 14:26   Link #282
musouka
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I think in some respects, White Album is trying to be too opaque. It might have a nice style to it, and it might force the viewer to think about what they're watching in order to understand--something which I always appreciate--but I find the conversations the characters have often border on nonsensical and profoundly uninteresting much of the time. Once, in a story I was co-authoring with a great writer, we were accused of being too obscure in what our characters were talking about. At the time I dismissed it, but now I think I sort of understand how that person felt.

Whenever Touya starts babbling about goddesses, I have no idea what he's talking about. And the show treats this as something I should already know about the character. In episode two, when given a chance to explain to an outside person like Rina, they instead shy away from it, leading to frustration on my part. Likewise, the conversation with what's-her-face, the other woman that likes him on the phone was painfully slow and pointless. It might have been realistic, but it's realistic in an uninteresting way. I'd rather watch a show that reflects the feeling of being realistic, rather than boring me with realism itself. (I also thought that phone call was obscuring the larger point that Touya is lonely without Yuki and is subconsciously allowing other girls to fill the hole left by her, because his thoughts were all about his friend's cheesecake. Yes, he wanted to talk to her about it, but that wasn't the main reason he stayed on the phone.)

Basically, this show seems mired in uninteresting drama. I don't care about the poetry book, cheesecake, or riding bikes if nothing interesting is said about the characters participating in those events. I don't dislike the characters, but they're not opening themselves to me as a viewer, so it's not very interesting. If I want the feeling this show gives me, I can just sit in the park and pontificate on the lives of the people that walk by.

I'll give it a few more eps, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
All these questions are meaningless according to you?
I'm not SorrowK, but they are meaningless questions. I reject the idea that just because a show develops a lot of controversy, that somehow makes it a better show that one whose themes aren't disorganized and its structure sloppy. Code Geass is probably one of the most highly discussed anime in recent memory, with Death Note a close second. Why is this? Is it because they are brilliant masterpieces of animation? No, it's because they deliberately set out to include themes in which there are a lot of disparate opinions. KimiNozo is the same--it even attempts to jerk your emotions around in the exact same way Code Geass does. Its methods are crude; it drowns in unrealistic melodrama. Code Geass might have spun many an interesting discussion about the nature of revenge and changing society for the better--that doesn't make the show itself any less a trainwreck.
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Last edited by musouka; 2009-01-17 at 15:48.
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Old 2009-01-17, 15:04   Link #283
serenade_beta
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Wuhya~ Messy, messy...

Spoiler for ep3:
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Last edited by serenade_beta; 2009-01-18 at 11:42.
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Old 2009-01-17, 17:22   Link #284
kk2extreme
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the op is extremely addicting the more you listen to it. It really capture the 80s atmosphere.

Oh did i forget that it is very good
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Old 2009-01-17, 23:16   Link #285
Peanutbutter
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Never have I been so confused after watching an episode.

Thanks to the posts above, I think I understood the flow of things. The first impression I had is that

Spoiler:
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Old 2009-01-18, 04:05   Link #286
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As usual in a show like this, the lies are turning into seeds of snowballs. Not a good sign, I guess.
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Old 2009-01-18, 04:53   Link #287
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
I'm not SorrowK, but they are meaningless questions. I reject the idea that just because a show develops a lot of controversy, that somehow makes it a better show that one whose themes aren't disorganized and its structure sloppy.
That's exactly the kind of empty assassination talk which I consider irritating, truthfully. Why? "Disorganized"? Sounds terrible, but what does it mean? What exactly is to be criticized? "Sloppy structure" is the same. Big booming words designed to hide a lack of concreteness. Personally, I think that the shift in timeline of KimiNozo did an excellent job to underline the enormous change in setting between the past and the present. What else could you possibly mean? If you criticize, please be clear, not this "summary-execution style".

Also, they're certainly not meaningless questions, otherwise why have you been so stronly emotionally invested in them back then? Why did so many people (including you) invest so many hours in heatedly discussing something meaningless? Your own actions contradict your words.

Quote:
Code Geass is probably one of the most highly discussed anime in recent memory, with Death Note a close second. Why is this? Is it because they are brilliant masterpieces of animation? No, it's because they deliberately set out to include themes in which there are a lot of disparate opinions.
I agree with you here to a certain degree. However, the discussions following Geass and Kiminozo episodes were fundamentally different in nature (can't comment on Death Note, since I haven't followed it). Geass was purposely defined to make exactly those things happen which nobody expected, without any semblance of probability or logical development. Kiminozo's development was quite logical and credible (stipulating the "you mustn't tell Haruka what happened in between" part - I can't judge if that's making any medical sense, but something likewise just now happened to a German top politician too, so I guess it's not entirely impossible). Therefore, the discussions in KimiNozo rather revolved around how to interpret and judge the characters' actions. Geass discussions were mostly wild guessing games without rational foundation.

So, I agree that controversy alone doesn't necessarily prove depth, but I'd say in Kiminozo's case it did. People were very much divided here over some of the example questions I listed. Why aren't they meaningful? _Concrete_ criticism please.

Quote:
KimiNozo is the same--it even attempts to jerk your emotions around in the exact same way Code Geass does.
No. See above. Of course it employs techniques to enhance dramatic impact on the viewer, EVERY show does that. What do you believe is background music for? That is what good direction is SUPPOSED to do, particularly in shows like these.

What I believe more likely is that you personally disliked this form of influencing you. That's fair enough. The emotional pressure the show put on the viewer was extremely high, and I've seen many people just "disconnect" from the anime in anger from it. They release the pressure by directing their anger against the anime. Fair enough aswell. It's like Indian food - some people love the spiciness, some don't. But just because a dish is too spicy for me personally, I wouldn't call it a failure. Add "In my opinion" at least, and don't talk as if your verdict was objective.

Quote:
Its methods are crude;
Unconcrete. What is "crude"? You have laid no foundation on which you could credibly lay summary judgment.

Quote:
it drowns in unrealistic melodrama.
Not unrealistic. Yes, it's unlikely that someone like us would be caught up in a situation like this, but there's no doubt that something comparable could happen in real life. And there's no reason why the rest couldn't happen aswell. (As opposed to Geass)

Quote:
Code Geass might have spun many an interesting discussion about the nature of revenge and changing society for the better--that doesn't make the show itself any less a trainwreck.
If you say so. Who are we to judge your judgment.

In summary, I maintain that the debates that arose from KimiNozo were among the most interesting and worthwhile (and thus meaningful) I've seen. The story had an excellent construction and a particularly strong ending message via Hontou no Takaramono, therefore its high score pretty much everywhere is more than warranted.

PS: Sorrow-K messaged me that the neg-rep I got was not from him. I assumed that it was because of the way it was worded and the temporal coincidence, but I have no reason to believe he's not truthful, so I want to apologize for the unjustified allegation.
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Old 2009-01-18, 04:59   Link #288
Skyfall
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And with that, let's call it a day for the KGNE discussion in this thread. It has gone on for long enough, not to mention delivering spades of subtle and not so subtle spoilers. If you wish to further discuss KGNE, the subforum is that way --->. Thank you.
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Old 2009-01-18, 09:30   Link #289
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Did anyone count the minutes spent on the phone? I'm sure at least half of episode 3 was phone call scenes.
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Old 2009-01-18, 10:09   Link #290
Deathkillz
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ep 3
Spoiler:
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Old 2009-01-18, 11:17   Link #291
Ottocycle
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Well he wasn't begging for the stuff he returned, and actually for more money since the contract renewal for his apartment was coming(the downpayments are heavy over there).

He still needs to get a backbone with regard to that though.
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Old 2009-01-18, 12:23   Link #292
Heliopolis
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Spoiler for white album 03 review:


source: star crossed animeblog
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Old 2009-01-18, 12:36   Link #293
musouka
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I had more typed up, but since this thread is in real danger of being derailed, I'll leave it at this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Also, they're certainly not meaningless questions, otherwise why have you been so stronly emotionally invested in them back then? Why did so many people (including you) invest so many hours in heatedly discussing something meaningless? Your own actions contradict your words.
Ahh, Mentar, I see we're back to your classic standby, where you try to prove a show's worth by the fact that a lot of people discussed it. (OMG, including me? Shokku!) Why do I spend that much time discussing anything? Because it's interesting. I'll watch a bad show if the discussion is interesting. I did the same for Shuffle and I loathe that show. Discussion and merit are two different things, and sometimes discussion has its own merit.
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Old 2009-01-18, 12:43   Link #294
Mentar
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Oh wow... this episode was NOT easy...

Spoiler:
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Old 2009-01-18, 13:28   Link #295
Kaoru Chujo
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In general, the difficulty of understanding some of what is going on doesn't bother me yet. It seems reasonable that this engine is just getting up to speed, and the direction of its momentum isn't clear yet. I actually enjoy that feeling of uncertainty. But I also feel hints of crudeness in the way things are done (no examples, it's just a feeling), so I can see where some people are coming from with their criticisms. All I can really say,though, is that I am fully engaged, myself. The emotional and interpersonal complexity is rather thrilling, actually.

I certainly don't want to devalue the criticisms, but I wonder if different people's attitudes toward melodrama is significant. I enjoy the emotional intensity of a lot of melodrama, whether a plot seems exaggerated or not. I certainly loved KGnE, though I haven't caught up with the OVAs yet. I mean, just about any mecha show is unrealistic to the extreme, and many shounen shows avoid melodrama by avoiding emotion, it seems to me. I'd rather err on the side of more emotion than of less. But we shall see if they do it in a believable way here, or not.

And I would like to draw attention to the two scenes on the rooftop, between Yuuki and Touya. I thought Hirano Aya was outstanding there. The light but sinewy feeling of her voice; the sweet, clear notes surrounded by silence. She communicated so much spirit and presence. That "uso" was amazing, for example. And so was the "omotta." She is still not the most natural-sounding seiyuu, but if one is able to accept that, the emotional rewards are great. It's as if Yuuki suddenly burst into full reality for me in this episode, partly because of what she says, partly from Hirano getting going.

And I have to say it: I really like Nana-chan's OP, especially the first part, and also the insert song. I wonder how they will play Hirano's less polished style when it comes to her actually singing -- which it must, mustn't it? Despite the fact that she works with Lantis and King Records is producing this show.
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Old 2009-01-18, 13:42   Link #296
apr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Yuki also gets a +2 from me. So letsee what the secret is going to be after all.
I think it's the fact that she's getting a song/debut whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
I thought Hirano Aya was outstanding there. The light but sinewy feeling of her voice; the sweet, clear notes surrounded by silence. She communicated so much spirit and presence. That "uso" was amazing, for example. And so was the "omotta." She is still not the most natural-sounding seiyuu, but if one is able to accept that, the emotional rewards are great. It's as if Yuuki suddenly burst into full reality for me in this episode, partly because of what she says, partly from Hirano getting going.

And I have to say it: I really like Nana-chan's OP, especially the first part, and also the insert song. I wonder how they will play Hirano's less polished style when it comes to her actually singing -- which it must, mustn't it? Despite the fact that she works with Lantis and King Records is producing this show.
Nothing creeps me out quite like when you're going into voice description mode, Kaoru. I do agree she was good in this episode, though. A lot of Hirano's problems stem from the "got to do different voices!!" complex, but she sounds alright if they just let her stick to her natural range (although I suppose in this case it's a bit higher up than it should be).

Mizuki Nana is a decent singer, even during concerts, while Hirano is evidently far from a professional. Even so, there are ways to make shitty singers sound good in a studio, as is clear from God Knows. The trouble is that Hirano's producers are shit and keep giving her terrible songs, which either don't fit her range, or just sound like crap no matter the artist. Then Hirano gets blamed for poor sales. In the case of White Album, she'll be given songs written by the same people who did Nana's OP/insert, so there's a good chance it will be listenable.
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Old 2009-01-18, 14:26   Link #297
musume_no_hoshi
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Nana Mizuki has the best live singing for a seiyuu, at least from what I have heard, her new live fighter concert kinda dissapointed me, but that's not the point. Hirano Aya dissapointed me with every live performance I seen from her (other then her punk version of Bouken Desho Desho), I saw the digest of her performance with Animelo 2008, she still sounded pretty bad with singing Love Gun, which I don't think is a very hard song to sing. God Knows was made for Hirano Aya's voice, I heard loads of remix of God Knows, but the original always sounds the best. Hirano Aya's producers need to make songs that matches her voice. Like Yoko Kanno producing songs for May'n.

Hirano Aya's voice is very noticable, it kinds 'sticks out' from the rest of the voices you hear from anime. Houkoholic once mentioned that Hirano Aya seems to actually 'act' the lines, you can hear her taking her breath all the time, which would sound great in a live action movie or something, but would clash with other seiyuus in anime. Nana Mizuki just does the standard seiyuu job that everyone expects, which matches other seiyuus, but her performance is nothing special.

Sometimes with seiyuus, they can have a very small vocal range, but have really good acting which convince the watcher's that they're a different character. Such as Wakamoto, his voice from Code Geass and Hayate no Gotoku has the same voice, but the acting convinced me that they're different. Hirano Aya should stick with her Haruhi voice, which is the same voice she used for Reira from NANA, which sounds great. I like her Konata voice too, but I hate anything she uses between the two.
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Old 2009-01-18, 14:31   Link #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
I certainly don't want to devalue the criticisms, but I wonder if different people's attitudes toward melodrama is significant. I enjoy the emotional intensity of a lot of melodrama, whether a plot seems exaggerated or not. [...] I'd rather err on the side of more emotion than of less. But we shall see if they do it in a believable way here, or not.
I think you're onto something here. Because melodrama is all about swaying the viewer's emotions, the issue is really all about "what moves you", and the truth is that it's different for each of us. I think it's virtually impossible to talk about the "quality" of a drama without first considering whether we felt connected to the story, because that can seriously influence any other judgement we might try to render about the show. Some of us like to put big words (or lots of words) to explain the reasons for our feelings, or the factors in the show that we feel influence those feelings, but really that isn't the important thing. Objective metrics were only devised to help explain and describe what are actually very simple questions: Was I engaged? Was I entertained? Was I moved? I don't think it does us any good to watch anime at all if it weren't for those questions. I think the important thing to keep in mind is that the old adage "one's trash is another's treasure" doesn't necessarily mean the "trash" person has higher standards, only different ones, and that's okay.
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Old 2009-01-18, 14:58   Link #299
musouka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
I mean, just about any mecha show is unrealistic to the extreme, and many shounen shows avoid melodrama by avoiding emotion, it seems to me. I'd rather err on the side of more emotion than of less. But we shall see if they do it in a believable way here, or not.
I don't think White Album has a problem with melodrama at this point, I just think it's having trouble connecting to me as a viewer because I feel like I'm being held at arm's length from these characters. I don't disagree with erring on the side of too much emotion either, since many people can relate to feeling that depth of emotion when things don't work out in their own lives, but there is a difference between being melodramatic and over-emotional. Melodrama isn't defined as having a mere excess of emotion, it's also "characterized by exaggerated emotions, stereotypical characters, and interpersonal conflicts."

Even so, melodrama itself isn't always bad. But I don't think it's well served in romance, where understandable, more restrained character interaction should reign supreme, imo.
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Old 2009-01-18, 15:38   Link #300
Mentar
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Hmm... DID we have melodrama so far?

I can think of Yuki crying in Rina's arms in ep2. Anything else?
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