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Old 2008-12-24, 02:32   Link #1801
Jimmy C
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
I'll work backwards on this one. Deal with more recent points, then work on leftovers from previous posts.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Nevertheless, it has very little effect on the argument because we are already assuming choked flow situations where the conditions (pressure ... etc) in the tank / pool are sufficient that an additional draw won't significantly interfere with the first
The difference between a pool and a tank analogy is that, when you use a pump to pull water out of a tank, when you use several in fact, the amount of water in the pool makes no difference to the output's pressure, until it's almost dry.

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If anything, they are arguably employed as an "anti-control" device in a sense. So why would they shackle one on Arf?
Let me put it this way, I said there's probably no way the TSAB can tell the difference between output for spellcasting and output to Arf. If Arf isn't in the Bureau, why take the trouble to reengineer the limiter system? And you also never showed how there's a difference between using energy for spells and to familiars.
Besides, if Arf does tap more of Fate's mana pool than Fate herself, what happens when Fate needs that energy after her limiter release?

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Personally, I'm more than happy to use the timings shown in the show and the time frame provided in Ep 18 (<20 minutes) to model what happened as accurately as possible, as you point out. Whether it is beneficial to my argument is at most tertiary to me.
You're right, forget the timecuts. They're impossible to estimate if they exist and do more harm to me if they do. However, going by the shown sequence, the attack on RF6 happens quite a bit after the GFHQ assault begins. There's seven minutes of footage between the begining of the attack on GFHQ and Uno telling Lutecia to head to RF6. Then only does RF6 pick up hostiles headed for them, and they're probably still a minute or so away, at least. By then, there's no time to gather everyone outside the building, let alone head for the field. What defender would choose to abandon a good position in the face of an enemy that can intercept him before he reaches another one?

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It is what they aren't doing, thus making it easier to stick them, that makes the whole Ep16-17 annoying. Its so ... contrived.
Perhaps the deployments at GFHQ were too contrived, but the one at RF6 was sensible even if inadequate. It's your insistence on using the field that's unreasonable. A real building vs one that can disappear at the push of a button?
The only deployment I utterly disagreee with was making Erio and Caro stand the midnight shift. They're what, 10? They were at HQ at just past 7pm on Sept 11 and were scheduled to be there until the conference ended at 6 or 7pm on Sept 12, that's 24 hours on duty! They're in the millitary and all, but they're still just 10! At the least, they should have let them sleep and called them in just before the conference starts.
I've already said I don't mind seperating the captains from their devices, there's some rationale for it (however paperthin and farfetched it may seem to you) but this was nuts!

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If Zafira can't fire on the move, he'll have to fire on the "short halt" in this scenario. In the real battle, he's almost certainly firing on the short halt.
Refer to episodes 7 and 23, Zafira has to stand on the ground to fire those white blades of his out of the ground. It looks like he can cover a hundred meters or so, but after that, he would need to catch up.

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In fact, using the timeframe in the show, they only really held for a matter of minutes, and the drones are already pouring 'round them, so one can really argue they didn't hold out for much of anything at all.
In that case, there's no really no chance they can last long enough to escort everyone to the field, is there?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
1) Put Arf in random HQ TSAB unit.
2) Get friend (Nakajima, the Principal, Acous ... don't they have OTHER friends as well?) to go ask for her in a similar vein Nanoha and Vita asked for Subaru and Teana. Since Arf is relatively elite in the mage rankings, the request would be reasonable.
No. 1 won't get Arf groundside on Mid. RF6 was set up as a special unit under GF juristriction, that's why they had access to GF personnel. No other GF unit would be able to get HQ personnel like RF6.
In no. 2, you can't guarantee any (HQ) unit that gets Arf will be willing to let her go. Especially if no one in RF6 has any say in her deployment.
I think that pretty much precludes 3 and 4 from happening.

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The trick is not to place her in RF6, but close-by - its called connections.
They only have one connection with the GF, the 108th. It looks like they were at GFHQ that day, so Arf isn't going to be at RF6 during the attack anyway.

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Should have chosen "unprepared positions".
Doesn't that just make your statement even more removed from reality? Given the amount of resistance they put up, it can hardly be considered "unprepared".

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Weren't they nominally members of the TSAB? Don't they have basic training?
Does your housekeeper march 10km a day while carrying 20kg backpack before doing her duties?

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Have you considered that a plan that forces the enemy to use more force can already be considered an improvement?
Not if it doesn't change the outcome.

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You sure they might not have done better protecting a smaller, actually defensible area?
Out in the open with no cover for the people you're supposed to be protecting is a not defensible area. Ask any soldier, would they rather have a roof over their heads when an attack comes, and would they prefer that roof to be made of the strongest material possible? As for the drones getting around them, perhaps this was the sequence of events:
1. Shamal and Zafira smack the drones that get too close to the building. They are successful for a while.
2. Otto shows up and starts bombarding them.
3. Shamal shifts her priority to blocking her attacks. Zafira shifts to covering her from drones.
4. Drones take the opportunity to get around them into the base. But Shamal and Zafira have no choice but to hope that Vice can intercept those that get to close to the personnel.

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Sure, if they see Vivio and can compare her face to a prerecorded profile. But Small = Vivio = Priority = Attack?
For one, she's the only person of that size in the base. Erio and Caro are slightly bigger, but they're at GFHQ. For another, even if they (Otto and Deed) don't see her right away, they'll assume she's among the people gather outside the base/heading for the field and intercept them. Think about, if RF6 is abandoning their base, they have to take Vivio along with everyone else. If Otto and Deed can't figure this out on their own, I'm sure Quattro or Uno will point it out to them.

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If they mass together like that, they would be easier to take out too.
They can't do it while moving quickly. It won't be long before Otto and Deed join in and they can't move at all.

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Any survivability they bought is entirely due to the lack of enthusiasm on Otto and Deed's part.
If you want to assume RF6 doing something insane like abandoning their base for the field, then I can assume Otto and Deed being more enthusiastic during the attack.

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Still so cool on calling them? Also, I did say if he wasn't calling just for show.
It's never just for show. They always hope (at least) they can hold out until help arrives, however long it is. Besides, they called for help when there were only two hostiles. Shamal and Zafira might have been enough to hold them off (it's not like RF6 knew they couldn't at this time) then the drone swarm appeared too. Where did they come from? Probably summoned by Lutecia.

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True. And combining the two is a way to do that.
You can't do that. In any sensible base design, the training field is a modest distance from the rest of the base's buildings. It has to be, because you don't want stray gunfire and explosions damaging your buildings and the noise disturbing everyone in the base. With TSAB mage units, there's still the danger of stray bolts tagging buildings and people outside the field and mages smacking into the buildings while flying around.

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1) GFHQ was there for a very long time; RF6 for a few months.
That's still enough to get what he needs to assault the base.

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2) GFHQ was run by his friends, he has far fewer friends that can help him with RF6.
Those friends have access to the records for a unit that's nominally under GF's control at this time. And Reguis did order an inquiry after ep12, so there's the opportunity to grab info on RF6's defensive arrangements.

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3) GFHQ was ground reconnoitered by Sein and Cinque (I suspect a lot of the info really came through this channel). As far as we know, he didn't do a reconaissance on RF6.
But you can't be absolutely sure he didn't, now can you? Why wouldn't he try to find out enough to render RF6 completely defenseless in the middle of an attack?

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The system is clearly segmented into a bunch of more or less hexagonal units, and you assume one generator? What is this, Star Wars Galactic Empire and Plot Device Exhaust Port?
It's a lot easier to have 1 big generator to power a network of projectors. Having one generator per projector could actually cost way more than just one big one. When the generator goes, all the projectors still die.

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Wow, Sein and Cinque? By the way, now he can't get a Type-0. Wasn't it you that said that if a plan can foul up at least one of Jail's objectives, it is a clear improvement?
Only if said plan was actually reasonable enough to have been implemented by RF6, and this one is not there yet.

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Wow, because she did that in the real fight.
Actually, it looks like she did.

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and no matter how many drones she can bring to search, chances are better the larger the area is.
Not better enough, either someone with a staff is protecting the people or not. If yes, concentrate on those people (they won't last long without Shamal and Zafira). If no, zap the defenseless personnel, and call in Lutecia to collect Vivio.

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and yours that he has foreknowledge.
Just reconnaisance and adequate intelligence, hardly unreasonable demands given his resources.

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How does that change the fact they have several forms?
The level of pseudomatter generation you're proposing mean non-mages should have access to this kind of thing. Here's another example, don't like the design of your furniture? Download a new one and execute.

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In which case, Tre and Zest gets into about a 5:2.
Not with at least two of them being tasked to deal with the drone swarms.
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Old 2008-12-24, 06:04   Link #1802
Estavali
絶対・慢心・ダメ・にゃのです!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the Horizon
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Out in the open with no cover for the people you're supposed to be protecting is a not defensible area. Ask any soldier, would they rather have a roof over their heads when an attack comes, and would they prefer that roof to be made of the strongest material possible? As for the drones getting around them, perhaps this was the sequence of events:
1. Shamal and Zafira smack the drones that get too close to the building. They are successful for a while.
2. Otto shows up and starts bombarding them.
3. Shamal shifts her priority to blocking her attacks. Zafira shifts to covering her from drones.
4. Drones take the opportunity to get around them into the base. But Shamal and Zafira have no choice but to hope that Vice can intercept those that get to close to the personnel.
Regarding the part about the drones getting past the Shamal-Zafira front, it may also be possible that Lutecia could have pulled another mass-drone-teleport to slip pass them. If S&Z are busy with the drones and/or the Number Twins in front of them, they would, as Jimmy has said, be unable to pull themselves away to attend to this new threat and put all their bets in Vice's abilities.

Come to think of it, if the Jail faction did consider the training field as a potential refuge for the RF6 personale, what they can do is:
  • First, send Drones and/or Twins to engage S&Z.
  • Next, mass-teleport drones on the causeway to the field to deny any access. Considering that most of the ones capable of dealing with them are off in the GFHQ, a fairly sizable force would be enough, especially if that force contains at least one or two of the tougher Type-3.
  • Finally, send a 3rd group of drones to attack the interior. At this point there can be two responses from those still in the base:
  1. They stay put as they did in the actual story, and try to take out as many drones as possible. This will lead to the original outcome, the drones thin out the defenders after which Lutecia comes in and clear out those still standing; or
  2. They make for the causeway. However, when they find that their escape route is blocked, they will be in an unenviable situation where the drones in front and behind them catches them in a pincer attack (or rather, the pursuing drones will close in and force them to either scatter or fall. The ones on the causeway only need to sit still and shoot anyone that comes in too close). If this movement is executed quick enough, the escapees will have no time to consider any remaining options. While the combat personale should still be able to keep their heads (more or less) under fire, I doubt the admin and civilian staff will have their cool. Especially after one or two has been gunned down, most people without a good training will easily break down into an unthinking panic.

Both situations are bad. The first is a desperate defense that could swiftly deteriorate into a "sit, wait and die" situation, but the latter is worse in the sense that the prey will have no cover and will fall like wheat before a sharp scythe (metaphorically speaking, of course).
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Old 2008-12-24, 10:29   Link #1803
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
The difference between a pool and a tank analogy is that, when you use a pump to pull water out of a tank, when you use several in fact, the amount of water in the pool makes no difference to the output's pressure, until it's almost dry.
OK ... now how does that help you?

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Let me put it this way, I said there's probably no way the TSAB can tell the difference between output for spellcasting and output to Arf.
Maybe that's true. I slept at 3AM last night, can you remind me how that is supposed to mean they'll choose systems that choke Arf?

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If Arf isn't in the Bureau, why take the trouble to reengineer the limiter system?
Despite diagrams showing how a configuration with parallel pipelines, or even a serial configuration where the branch off to familiar is before the limiter has important advantages to its survivability and stability, why do you still assume the limiter systems' original layout is to have the least stable system.

If familiars are rare (as you postulated previously, and is probably true based on evidence so far) then the base layout of the limiter will assume no familiar-like demands. Given this, they are going to have to make some re-engineering choices anyway for Fate's limiter. In fact, in a parallel pipeline configuration, they won't have to modify to just clamp Fate (one pipe), while to clamp Fate and Arf requires modification! Even in a serial pipeline configuration, it is not at all clear why clamping Fate and Arf would be the easier clamp.

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And you also never showed how there's a difference between using energy for spells and to familiars.
Umm, difference number 1. As far as can be told, you can disengage most magics on will or if you lose consciousness. Apparently, cutting the link to a familiar ain't so easy.

Difference number 2. Your familiar can execute magics independently. This is not true of most spells.

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Besides, if Arf does tap more of Fate's mana pool than Fate herself, what happens when Fate needs that energy after her limiter release?
In a parallel configuration, all Fate will lose is some endurance. In a serial configuration, there will be some problems (again, why the logical system is a parallel one...), but whether she has a limiter or not or where it is placed won't be relevant to the question - it is just a more fundamental problem of plumbing.

In any case, the very premise of a familiar is that any capability loss the mage suffers through making and feeding one is compensated by the gain of an additional maneuver and fire element. In short, Fate should have a net advantage with Arf at her side. If she blows that advantage (say by sending Arf with the Forwards, thus getting into deeper crap in Ep21), that's a use that's probably not anticipated by the creator of the familiar process (or maybe they will say the use shows her priorities and in that sense is correct).

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The only deployment I utterly disagreee with was making Erio and Caro stand the midnight shift. They're what, 10? They were at HQ at just past 7pm on Sept 11 and were scheduled to be there until the conference ended at 6 or 7pm on Sept 12, that's 24 hours on duty! They're in the millitary and all, but they're still just 10! At the least, they should have let them sleep and called them in just before the conference starts.
I've already said I don't mind seperating the captains from their devices, there's some rationale for it (however paperthin and farfetched it may seem to you) but this was nuts!
Well, I guess we have to be impressed about one thing - that they all stayed awake. We've been told that Subaru can last without sleep, but even Teana should be feeling the sleep deprivation.

To be fair though, we don't see them through a lot of the guard process. Maybe they took naps in turns and we didn't see them.

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Refer to episodes 7 and 23, Zafira has to stand on the ground to fire those white blades of his out of the ground. It looks like he can cover a hundred meters or so, but after that, he would need to catch up.
Yes, Zafira thus uses firing on the short halt. Handle it 100m at a time, or whatever he can do.

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In that case, there's no really no chance they can last long enough to escort everyone to the field, is there?
Not necessarily. For one thing, there's the defense area - the frontage of the building may be too large, but perhaps not a phalanx. For another, they are moving, while the building is still, and that complicates the tactical engagement problem for the drones (yes, nominally, computing intercepts should be first nature for a computer-driven drone, but if it is they'll be getting more hits with their fire...)

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No. 1 won't get Arf groundside on Mid. RF6 was set up as a special unit under GF juristriction, that's why they had access to GF personnel. No other GF unit would be able to get HQ personnel like RF6.
Wouldn't that be HQ's perogative? Surely, at least occasionally people move from HQ to GF and vice versa. In fact, RF6 is a shuffle of HQ, Air Force and Navy personnel to GF jurisdiction!

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In no. 2, you can't guarantee any (HQ) unit that gets Arf will be willing to let her go. Especially if no one in RF6 has any say in her deployment.I think that pretty much precludes 3 and 4 from happening.
That's what the connections are for, to get this kind of cooperation and understanding that can't be put on the page. If these guys are really friends, why are you so sure they won't be letting Arf go?

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They only have one connection with the GF, the 108th. It looks like they were at GFHQ that day, so Arf isn't going to be at RF6 during the attack anyway.
Well, then, if that's the case, then they'll have Arf at the GF. Seeing they'll probably know this kind of thing in advance, OK, so Arf's there, which means that:
1) The correlation of forces improves in the HQ, which will at least be something.
OR
2) The option now exists to send someone ELSE back (or even two) and maintain the same approximate combat potential at GF.

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Doesn't that just make your statement even more removed from reality? Given the amount of resistance they put up, it can hardly be considered "unprepared".
Fighting back hard is not the judge of whether a position is prepared.

Preparation of a position means to arrange for things that will improve your survivability or your ability to kill enemies. Such as barricades, trenches, barbed wire, mines (OK, I guess the last one won't be TSAB but you get the point) ... etc.

A guy who gets shot 10 seconds in from a stray shot while fighting from a well-fortified position still had a prepared position - he was just unlucky. A person who fights for 2 hours but has to use shields constantly because there is nothing else to protect her from fire is still fighting from an unprepared position. If that person had a prepared position, she might have lasted 4 hours because she can save a lot of effort from not having to make shields.

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Not if it doesn't change the outcome.
By that standard, Griffiths calling for help was meaningless, since it didn't change the outcome.

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Out in the open with no cover for the people you're supposed to be protecting is a not defensible area. Ask any soldier, would they rather have a roof over their heads when an attack comes, and would they prefer that roof to be made of the strongest material possible? As for the drones getting around them, perhaps this was the sequence of events:
1. Shamal and Zafira smack the drones that get too close to the building. They are successful for a while.
2. Otto shows up and starts bombarding them.
3. Shamal shifts her priority to blocking her attacks. Zafira shifts to covering her from drones.
4. Drones take the opportunity to get around them into the base. But Shamal and Zafira have no choice but to hope that Vice can intercept those that get to close to the personnel.
Actually, the scene with the drones inside the building feeding on the helicopter was before Otto actually started attacking.

Can you honestly say that glass-heavy roof of RF6 (and we can SEE how thin the roof's 'crete was from the wreckage) is "the strongest material possible?"

In general, soldiers would prefer a roof on their heads - if it is actually cover-grade strong, like a bunker. That's why I'm forking them off to a position that can be turned into a defensive position 500m (according to you) away. Hiding under a roof that does not have strength is actually a potential hazard since the durn thing might collapse on the first blow and squash you. It is kind of like hiding behind concealment - it gives a false sense of security and if it is the only (or one of a few) concealment it basically tells the enemy exactly where to shoot up.

Imagine this. You lead an infantry squad. Your choices are reduced now to lying on the grass dispersed or trying to hide out in a (the only) small but very visible hut. The enemy has RPOs and RPGs that will turn the hut into cinders with a few hits, and they probably won't have compunctions doing so to be safe. Sure you won't consider trying to lie in the grass and hoping the enemy doesn't spot you until you can get the jump on them?

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For one, she's the only person of that size in the base. Erio and Caro are slightly bigger, but they're at GFHQ. For another, even if they (Otto and Deed) don't see her right away, they'll assume she's among the people gather outside the base/heading for the field and intercept them. Think about, if RF6 is abandoning their base, they have to take Vivio along with everyone else. If Otto and Deed can't figure this out on their own, I'm sure Quattro or Uno will point it out to them.
Otto and Deed, as commanders, have a lot of area to cover.

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They can't do it while moving quickly. It won't be long before Otto and Deed join in and they can't move at all.
If Otto and Deed join in, the result of the battle suggests they'll have won that one.

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It's never just for show. They always hope (at least) they can hold out until help arrives, however long it is. Besides, they called for help when there were only two hostiles. Shamal and Zafira might have been enough to hold them off (it's not like RF6 knew they couldn't at this time) then the drone swarm appeared too. Where did they come from? Probably summoned by Lutecia.
What? Now according to you, they might have started off thinking they'll have to fight off only TWO enemies? Surely, even if they can't clear the path of countless Gadgets, they can have Shamal and Zafira hold those two enemies off while they run and disperse into the field so even if Shamal and Zafira lose eventually they'll be well hidden (surely, they are thinking they'll put up a better fight than "GAOOOOWW ... urk, urk")?

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You can't do that. In any sensible base design, the training field is a modest distance from the rest of the base's buildings. It has to be, because you don't want stray gunfire and explosions damaging your buildings and the noise disturbing everyone in the base. With TSAB mage units, there's still the danger of stray bolts tagging buildings and people outside the field and mages smacking into the buildings while flying around.
That makes sense, but what happened to "non-physically destructive" magirounds at times like this - the building itself can be shielded off by surrounding it with walls during training? Surrounding the base itself is woods so it isn't that bad if the mages crash into it. And as you said, "Compromises".

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Those friends have access to the records for a unit that's nominally under GF's control at this time. And Reguis did order an inquiry after ep12, so there's the opportunity to grab info on RF6's defensive arrangements.
Including security arrangement that are changed regularly? One also has to remember that RF6 is not exactly cooperating with Regius, so they'll show him as little as possible to get by. And after that whole farce with Zest Regius probably doesn't think of Jail as a friend either (which is why I figure they reconnoitered GF's defenses rather than just getting some snuck-out plans).

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But you can't be absolutely sure he didn't, now can you? Why wouldn't he try to find out enough to render RF6 completely defenseless in the middle of an attack?
Because apparently he didn't in the real attack? Besides, if before he got away with not reconnoitering, and this time he had to, well then there is a measurable improvement in the base's defensibility, no?

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It's a lot easier to have 1 big generator to power a network of projectors. Having one generator per projector could actually cost way more than just one big one. When the generator goes, all the projectors still die.
A possibility, but not a certainty.

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The level of pseudomatter generation you're proposing mean non-mages should have access to this kind of thing. Here's another example, don't like the design of your furniture? Download a new one and execute.
And has one compared the cost of the field generator versus just using ordinary furniture? Besides, do you want to have more things that you don't really own, but only a "licence for use?"

Besides, since you argue that they don't have pseudomatter but they can generate holograms and forcefields that match it, arguably the same argument goes for your idea. Furniture made of your system would have most of the same advantages.

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Not with at least two of them being tasked to deal with the drone swarms.
Well, that still leaves it a 3:3, which makes it very difficult for one to disengage to go inside. Also, remember if they rush inside to support their weaker groundlocked brethen, and then the Ace comes in, there's a chance the groundlocked brethen, out of their league, would be rolled over.
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Old 2008-12-31, 09:55   Link #1804
Jimmy C
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
I wanted to reply earlier, but I just never found the time to properly compose it until now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I slept at 3AM last night, can you remind me how that is supposed to mean they'll choose systems that choke Arf?
I'm saying they may not be able to avoid it. And if Arf isn't in the Bureau, they might not be willing to take the effort to avoid it either. You're saying they actually have choice, I disagree, that's all.

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Well, I guess we have to be impressed about one thing - that they all stayed awake.
Agreed. Although as much as I admire their endurance, there was no need to torture them like that.

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Maybe they took naps in turns and we didn't see them.
I hope they did. But if you rewatch ep16, you'll see that both Erio and Caro were wide awake at 2.35 am on Sept 12.

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A person who fights for 2 hours but has to use shields constantly because there is nothing else to protect her from fire is still fighting from an unprepared position.
You know what? This describes the RF6 personnel getting caught in the open, on the way to the field perfectly. An unprepared position. Compared to this, the base is a much better alternative.

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Actually, the scene with the drones inside the building feeding on the helicopter was before Otto actually started attacking.
Technically speaking, it's after Otto was shown. But given the state the heli was in, they'd have started earlier than that, yes.

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Can you honestly say that glass-heavy roof of RF6 is "the strongest material possible?"
If they were directly under that roof, you might have a point. But everyone was at least a floor or two below the glass celling. So it isn't a factor.

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You lead an infantry squad. Your choices are reduced now to lying on the grass dispersed or trying to hide out in a (the only) small but very visible hut. The enemy has RPOs and RPGs that will turn the hut into cinders with a few hits, and they probably won't have compunctions doing so to be safe. Sure you won't consider trying to lie in the grass and hoping the enemy doesn't spot you until you can get the jump on them?
You just love to twist the analogies to your advantage. You're thinking of the shelter as a straw hut. I'm saying it's at least a cement house. Oh, and the grass isn't tall enough to hide a prone person either.

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Otto and Deed, as commanders, have a lot of area to cover.
I'm sure a large group of people headed for the field would be a very obvious target.

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they can have Shamal and Zafira hold those two enemies off while they run and disperse into the field so even if Shamal and Zafira lose eventually they'll be well hidden
Without Shamal and Zafira to provide cover fire, the drones will be able to pick off people as they make a run for the field. If even a squad of drones sit on the causeway, no one get to the field at all.

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but what happened to "non-physically destructive" magirounds at times like this - the building itself can be shielded off by surrounding it with walls during training?
They may be "non-physically desctructive" but they still cause an annoying BOOM when they explode. And shielding off the field limits the options during trainning. Not all that desirable when you can drop that requirement (and cut down the noise) by just moving the field a distance away. Plus, you can make the troops jog on the way there.
It'd be easier to wrap the base in pseudomatter armor once they come under attack. That they didn't is either because such a system doesn't exist, they couldn't afford it, or it got disabled already.

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which is why I figure they reconnoitered GF's defenses rather than just getting some snuck-out plans
Do remember that Due, Quattro and Sein are very useful for sneaking into places and stealing things.

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Besides, if before he got away with not reconnoitering, and this time he had to, well then there is a measurable improvement in the base's defensibility, no?
Can you prove he didn't originally? If he did scout them out originally, then it makes no difference that he scouted them out in this alternative.

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Besides, since you argue that they don't have pseudomatter but they can generate holograms and forcefields that match it, arguably the same argument goes for your idea. Furniture made of your system would have most of the same advantages.
Like I said before, do you really want to use a shelter that can vanish at the push of a button or if the power fails? The same goes for furniture. Imagine that chair you're sitting on going "poof" then there's a blackout. You say pseudomatter can last without power for a while, but holofields defintely cannot.

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Well, that still leaves it a 3:3, which makes it very difficult for one to disengage to go inside.
Unless that one (Sette) was already dispatched before the engagement. That makes it 2:1 and 1:1 (Zest and Tre are out of mutual support range, and frankly Zest won't be interested in helping her). At best, one of them will be forced to withdraw earlier than original. Doesn't make much of a difference.

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Also, remember if they rush inside to support their weaker groundlocked brethen, and then the Ace comes in, there's a chance the groundlocked brethen, out of their league, would be rolled over.
By collapsing tunnels, they can delay the Aces long enough to complete their objective. They can't use their strongest attacks or they'll bring the roof down on their own heads.
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Old 2009-01-19, 22:45   Link #1805
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So I had a thought while perusing a volume of Japanese history.

We've all talked before about how the whole "let's get all of our brass into one place and disarm them" meeting is, from a military perspective, really really stupid. It had occurred to me before that there might be an explanation of "oh, it's traditional, and that's why we keep on doing it," but that explanation was a little unsatisfying. WHY would there have been such a tradition? Why would that have ever seemed like a good idea? What, at the end of the day, is the bloody point?

But if you think of it, not as a military strategy meeting, but a kind of "sankin-kotai" procession, it makes a lot of sense.

Recap on Japanese history... the sankin-kotai was the system that the Tokugawa shogunate used to keep the various daimyo (lords of each domain) in line. Each daimyo was required to travel to Edo in alternate years and live there, as well as to keep most of their families there full-time. Hugely expensive, as each domain had to fund their capital estate and retainers as well as a long procession to get the lord there and back safely and in style.

It didn't make a whole lot of sense to the daimyo, exactly, but the system wasn't to benefit them at all. The entire point of the exercise was to demonstrate their submission to the rule of the shogun, create a very real vulnerability in the daimyo (it's a lot harder to rebel when you're in the capital and surrounded by Shogunate troops, heh), and expose potentially-rebellious nobles ("What, you're not coming to Edo? Obviously you're plotting something! We'll crush you at once.")

I could see how Midchilda could have a use for such a custom. Powerful mages could certainly turn less-developed alternate realities into their own private fiefs, build armies, and declare independence or make war on the center, as it were. Making everyone above a certain level of power and importance head home and get together under conditions of mutual vulnerability would definitely help things stay united - it's a good opportunity to snap up actual rebels who show up, and those who don't show up are obviously up to something, right? (Or, at any rate, they're insufficiently committed to the idea of the central rule that they're not willing to follow a direct order that places them in a vulnerable position, which is not quite the same thing but pretty similar...)

So I ask myself, why didn't someone just make the parallel so that it was obvious? Or maybe it's just sufficiently obvious to Japanese viewers, the vast majority of whom are familiar with that system, that it didn't even bear repeating? In other words, maybe the reason we think the TSAB was being so dumb is just one big culture gap?

Comments, please. I might just be smokin' the good stuff here.
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Old 2009-01-19, 23:22   Link #1806
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A slight problem with that is, first, this summit is only one day. Second, the disarm regulation appears to be SOP for GFHQ at all times.
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Old 2009-01-20, 01:10   Link #1807
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Doesn't kill the metaphor. Obviously travel times are faster when you can warp rather than having to ride in a palanquin. ;p And disarmament in the Shogun's presence was also very much SOP.

I'm just throwing this out there. It's probably not reflective of anything at all. But it's at least mildly plausible and more palatable than "writers were idiots, full stop"...
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Old 2009-01-20, 01:53   Link #1808
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The writer's aren't idiots. They just have no idea how military tactics and strategy operate. Some of the mistakes they've made are things you could learn not to make playing against BOTS in an RTS game. Their strategy shows how n00b they'd be in a game of starcraft. ZERG RUSH with mook units or toss in some elites... Or both if you've built up for it... and try to cover for your superweapon.

Hell, realisticly, if we applied Jail's drones to the real world... say the Pentagon... Even if the president was secretly ordering the Secretary of Defense to let Jail do his thing, his drones would NEVER be allowed to get within five hundred miles of DC.

EVER.

Intercepts would occure at the six-hundred mile range... Not: Just outside the city limits.

The first line of defense in a defense is having some kind of network that can track the enemy approach from way beyond their ability to actually strike so you can either evacuate, or launch a counter attack in advance. (Or both.) The fact that the drones could get right up to the bay in Cranagan on a regular basis is borderline criminal negligence. I could understand not being able to pin them down once the intelligence network was knocked out. But there should have been some kind of long range perimiter around Cranagan that would detect the drones until that intel was knocked out, so that even if you don't know where they are, you know they're X-hundred miles out and have to still clear the distance. Enough to get your aces rearmed and back topside to kick ass well before arrival.

Instead, the enemy, their drones, and their elites are allowed to get well within twenty miles of Cranagan, a hugely populated city, before anyone things "Maybe we should go destroy them now..."

Ya'know... if they approached from the ocean, they'd stick out like a sore thumb. If they approached from land directions... someone would notice and call in about hundreds of flying drones if they were low enough to terrain mask.

Which leaves only Quattro's obnoxious IS to explain things, but then she's not there every single time.

Such things could have been more dramatic if the writer's had done that kind of research. Instead of the TSAB's gaping holes. You could actually depict them as capable and tough, but Jail's Cyborgs were JUST THAT GOOD to get drones inside a 500 mile radius perimiter and into striking range quickly AND manage to not only survive doing so, but achieve the mission objective with trivial losses.
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Old 2009-01-20, 02:01   Link #1809
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The existence of teleportation renders engagement at a distance obsolete. What they do need are sensors that can zero in on teleportation signatures. The thing is, they do have this tech onboard TSAB ships. The question remains, why don't they have protocols for rapid engagement of teleported advesaries?
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Old 2009-01-20, 02:03   Link #1810
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They might be using magical radar that is rendered useless by AMF.

Cheers.
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Old 2009-01-20, 02:52   Link #1811
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They might be using magical radar that is rendered useless by AMF.

Cheers.
Interesting. Never had thought of that before. But it does make sense considering, really, only another magical civilization could possibly threaten Midchilda itself.

Midchilda's dependency on magic for, well, everything is probably what makes an AMF such a deadly thing.
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Old 2009-01-20, 03:00   Link #1812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
The existence of teleportation renders engagement at a distance obsolete. What they do need are sensors that can zero in on teleportation signatures. The thing is, they do have this tech onboard TSAB ships. The question remains, why don't they have protocols for rapid engagement of teleported advesaries?
Not obsolete, just harder. Not everyone can teleport it seems, or we'd have teleportation spam going on. Teleportation can also be blocked by wide area barriers just as we've seen in A's.


Part of such a defensive measure, is if the enemy can teleport in, have teleport barriers ready. If the enemy tries to come in, you pick up the signature and snap up a barrier. Barring the way. The wide area barrier seems to be a decent backbone of mages at least early on in the series before we got to strikers... And then it was forgotten. I mean, what better way to contain the enemies than to slap up a barrier of this form and trap them in a pocket dimension?
That effectively keeps a person, no matter how close, at 'arms length' from criticals.

Given how barriers seemed to work to keep things out AND in equally well if you don't have brute magical power or the key or an effective decryption method... Slapping one up around the facility you're protecting, and another one at the destination of a detected teleport, you'd effectively have the enemy bogged down just as if you had them at 600 miles. They'd have to find a way to breach both barriers, which burns time and ruins the ambush.

Then there's another problem with the teleporting. If it worked so well putting people in place, you could just as easily yank people out.


Quite frankly, would I be one to modify TSAB protocalls to make sense. Overland and air traveling targets would be intercepted WAY outside of range as it should be. And teleporters would get double barrier treatment while anything sensitive in range of teleporters would get another double barrier treatment.

You telelport, or try. But find your teleport interrupted because you can't jump into a barrier that easily. Or if the barrier reaction was slow, you're "Caught in a box." And have to break out, and once you've done that, there's another box you have to break INTO to get to the objective.

Area denial pretty much the core of the strategy. "I see you, and you can't even get NEAR here without some kind of big fight..."


EDIT:
Now, for magical 'radar'... No.

See, this is another one of those writers didn't think it through, and thus the TSAB as a fictional entity have criminal negligence levels of stupidity. Because if the enemy is wandering around evaiding your super high end Magic Sensors because they have AMF clouding them, you more than have the tech that can pick up thermal signatures, regular radar detection... Hell, if your sensors that use magic are capable of taking background readings of areas... big bubbles of -NO READINGS- stick out just as much as -LARGE METALIC OBJECTS-.
Any of which, if properly written, would come to the mind of someone who was an expert in the field of detection.
"We've got enemies who can't be detected because they use AMF which magic can't detect through."
"Well, that makes it easy then. Just put some routines on to alert us to any anomalies that look like holes in the sensor sweeps."

There's more to stealth than not reflecting radar signals back to source.
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Old 2009-01-20, 06:11   Link #1813
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On the subject of radar, the TSAB could very much detect the AMF generating drones, so that isn't the reason they managed to sneak up on the HQ.

However, ATC, you seem to forget that the TSAB did have a Barrier in place to prevent teleporting in. Unfortunately for the TSAB, Jail had Cinque in place to sabotage it. From that point on, preventing enemies from teleporting in becomes impossible, as its obvious that Barriers that prevent entry need big generators to keep going -as evidenced by A's, in which Fate, Yuuno and Arf easilly managed to get into the Barrier created by Vita-

Teleporting enemies out has its own complications. As far as we have seen, it works by placing a circle underneath whats being teleported and porting it. Any target aware of that would simply move out of the way. Then there is also the fact that the drone AMF would interfere with the teleporting proces, rendering it inacurate, if not impossible.

From my point of view, the strategical error you are maiking is that you seem to be aproaching Jail as an enemy army, I.E. the chances of seeing them coming are high. GDI, if you will. Instead, you should try to treat Jail as a terrorist group. Like Stealth GLA. You have no idea where they are, no idea where they are coming from, and no idea where or when they will strike until they are there. Jail's drones and cyborgs made use of sewers and other undeground entrances in adition to attacking from the sky and teleporting in.

In fact, one could say that the moment Cinque destroyed the generator powering the bases main defences, the TSAB was doomed to fall. From that point, the drones were teleported in, disrupted the defensive lines, and allowing further entry by air or ground.
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Old 2009-01-20, 07:46   Link #1814
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Part of such a defensive measure, is if the enemy can teleport in, have teleport barriers ready. If the enemy tries to come in, you pick up the signature and snap up a barrier. Barring the way.
An anti-teleport-in barrier appears to require a lot of power. Clinque blowing up the generator in GFHQ in ep16 only reduced the output of the defensive barrier. Yet, that was enough to allow Lutecia to teleport the army of Gadgets in. Lesser barriers cast by mere mages in the first two season have been consistently shown to be unable to prevent hostile entry, although they're better at preventing hostile exit. This also requires a mage to be in position to cast a barrier to trap an incoming teleport in the first place. The TSAB hasn't shown the ability to remotely cast barriers tens of km away or more, ever.

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The wide area barrier seems to be a decent backbone of mages at least early on in the series before we got to strikers...
For the first two seasons, the purpose of the barriers was to keep the people of Earth from finding out about magic. That's no longer a concern when the action takes place on Mid instead. Also, I vaguely recall someone talking how casting those barriers ties down mages that could otherwise assist in stopping the threats inside the barrier.
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Old 2009-01-20, 09:11   Link #1815
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An anti-teleport-in barrier appears to require a lot of power. Clinque blowing up the generator in GFHQ in ep16 only reduced the output of the defensive barrier. Yet, that was enough to allow Lutecia to teleport the army of Gadgets in.
Actually, the drones were never actually teleported through the shield, half-power or not. It seems more likely that the blow generator thing is just to weaken the shield to the point where it can actually be dissolved by the AMF.

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Lesser barriers cast by mere mages in the first two season have been consistently shown to be unable to prevent hostile entry, although they're better at preventing hostile exit.
Actually, the barrier that protected the HQ building seems to be an entirely different type than the anti-discovery barriers used by the cast - for example, it definitely did not purge all the non-mages inside the building - as far as we know, it purged no one.

Strictly speaking, we are not even sure whether the thing has an anti-teleport ability at all. Our enemies didn't exactly seem awfully interested in teleporting inside the building. The shield apparently wasn't even raised at the beginning (Dieci's shot hit the building direct), yet no one tried any teleports that we can see.

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This also requires a mage to be in position to cast a barrier to trap an incoming teleport in the first place. The TSAB hasn't shown the ability to remotely cast barriers tens of km away or more, ever.
Or any spell for that matter, unless you count the destination point of a teleport, or Precia's "leap attack" which seems to be basically teleporting an attack spell.

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For the first two seasons, the purpose of the barriers was to keep the people of Earth from finding out about magic. That's no longer a concern when the action takes place on Mid instead. Also, I vaguely recall someone talking how casting those barriers ties down mages that could otherwise assist in stopping the threats inside the barrier.
There's also the factor that the barrier might accidentally trap someone who shouldn't have been trapped.

On the broader issue of Middie sensors, they definitely don't have a lot of variety, and their general hopelessness in detecting anything without a large energy signature is legend (the one time we saw it, detection vs two non-mage girls is 300 yards - maybe a dedicated search would squeeze out a bit more range...). On the other hand, what they have are reasonably suited to TSAB's purpose, which is mostly against large energy (mostly magical) events. When a large event happens, the sensors do seem to cue in very quickly and automatically, with apparently excellent resolution and even finds a way to present a visual a lot of the time. Also, it apparently works through walls and mud, at least for the target types of interest, which makes it more useful as a general purpose TSAB sensor than line of sight limited methods like radar, thermal and visual sighting.

The lack of long range air surveillance is curious to us, but not so much considering their dominance. They don't have conventional enemies and even air travel of all kinds seems strictly limited. Under such circumstances, they may have decided to forego the expense of dedicated active emitting radar-type surveillance.

It is probably assumed that if a really dangerous flying threat actually appears, it'll have a high energy signature, and will be detected adequately on the regular surveillance system (if it is a "pop-up" threat, probably the radar system would have trouble picking it up until it powers up as well), and a less dangerous flying threat would have a low energy signature, so it is less important if it was detected at a closer range. And of course there's the whole teleport thing too. But they won't really appear because their primary targets are criminals which probably won't be so conspicious as to fly.
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Old 2009-01-20, 09:31   Link #1816
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Or any spell for that matter, unless you count the destination point of a teleport, or Precia's "leap attack" which seems to be basically teleporting an attack spell.
Hayate. Hraesvelgr.
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Old 2009-01-20, 09:43   Link #1817
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On the subject of radar, the TSAB could very much detect the AMF generating drones, so that isn't the reason they managed to sneak up on the HQ.

However, ATC, you seem to forget that the TSAB did have a Barrier in place to prevent teleporting in. Unfortunately for the TSAB, Jail had Cinque in place to sabotage it. From that point on, preventing enemies from teleporting in becomes impossible, as its obvious that Barriers that prevent entry need big generators to keep going -as evidenced by A's, in which Fate, Yuuno and Arf easilly managed to get into the Barrier created by Vita-

Teleporting enemies out has its own complications. As far as we have seen, it works by placing a circle underneath whats being teleported and porting it. Any target aware of that would simply move out of the way. Then there is also the fact that the drone AMF would interfere with the teleporting proces, rendering it inacurate, if not impossible.

From my point of view, the strategical error you are maiking is that you seem to be aproaching Jail as an enemy army, I.E. the chances of seeing them coming are high. GDI, if you will. Instead, you should try to treat Jail as a terrorist group. Like Stealth GLA. You have no idea where they are, no idea where they are coming from, and no idea where or when they will strike until they are there. Jail's drones and cyborgs made use of sewers and other undeground entrances in adition to attacking from the sky and teleporting in.

In fact, one could say that the moment Cinque destroyed the generator powering the bases main defences, the TSAB was doomed to fall. From that point, the drones were teleported in, disrupted the defensive lines, and allowing further entry by air or ground.
Little wonder when I pre-wrote the StrikerS remake of that scene I was reminded of the Nod campaign leading to the fall of that floating can in space.
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Old 2009-01-20, 10:53   Link #1818
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Hayate. Hraesvelgr.
I don't think shooting the round to a great distance is exactly what I had in mind when I wrote this. If Hraesvelgr was formed at that distance and then shot somewhere then it'll be relevant.
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Old 2009-01-20, 11:17   Link #1819
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The US has a vast array of powerful radars searching for incoming Russian missiles. Why can't these radars be re-tasked to search for Arabs with suicide vests?

'cause it doesn't work that way, duh. ;p

Personally, I think the whole "barriers? We're not gonna bother with a barrier" thing is mostly related to the terrain they end up fighting in. For the most part, it's "ruined city" (boy, they have a lot of that), so protection of the civilian populace is not an issue.

But there's another aspect to it. Say you see a team of drones and you erect a barrier such that the drones and your defenders are inside the barrier. Then... team of drones 2 arrives and merrily wrecks their objective. Or substitute "Numbers cyborg" or "hostile mage" or "flying spaghetti monster" or whatever. When you're defending something, removing yourself from the same reality as the thing you're defending is not necessarily a good idea!

We don't ever see anyone thrown into a barrier without the person casting the barrier being in with them as well, do we?
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Old 2009-01-20, 15:26   Link #1820
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See, now what you're doing is rationalizing the writer's inabilities to apply correct military logic procedures to their writing by trying to link things that aren't really spoken about.
It's the point I'm trying to make here. The TSAB come across as foolish in military perspective to military junkies because the writers didn't do their research.

If they HAD done their research, they'd have written the scenarios a lot better. Getting anywhere NEAR cranagan would have been a feat, and an assault with a successful objective in there would have actually been... awesome.

Because if real soldiers and actual military understanding were involved in the writing. The drones wouldn't be allowed NEAR the City without Jail showing TRUE cunning and jumping through all the hoops. The detection network would be tuned in to dealing with them as well as power spikes. (You can't seriously tell me that after ten plus years of Jail doing his thing, someone's not going to have set up sensor detection suites tuned specificly to picking up the signatures of drones, AMF, or their side effects.)

Again, if Cranagan were DC and the Pentagon was HQ, its security would be considered paramount over just about everything. There would be five times redundant sets of multiple security patterns to deal with, and a policy of No Nonsense to suspected threats. If it LOOKS like a hostile, it's a hostile until proven otherwise, you'd have interception scrambled if someone SNEEZED wrong. Jail would be forced to operate more covertly than overtly, because any sizable force he were to mount would be met with a sledgehammer BEFORE he could move into position.

But, as the writing stands, the TSAB lacks any kind of real doctrine or procedure for keeping opponents at arms length from their most IMPORTANT city. Magical teleportation or not, they allowed Jail to get sizable forces within striking distance of the city on a regular basis. At the least, they should have forced Jail to constantly come up with new methods of approach.
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