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Old 2009-01-20, 15:49   Link #1821
Tempy
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Why so serious?

Take it easy.
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Last edited by Tempy; 2009-01-20 at 15:53. Reason: Page Claim in the name of calming the hell down
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Old 2009-01-20, 16:13   Link #1822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest Dynasty View Post
Why so serious?

Take it easy.
The Joker appears in Cranagan... all hell breaks loose.
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Old 2009-01-20, 16:28   Link #1823
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Query: Is Nanoha a show meant to display a realistic military in a realistic military setting?

Observation: Nanoha is a magical girl show that has a bit of military sprinkled in. The show itself is meant to represent heroines battling the wicked forces and helping the weak through the power of friendship and beams of pink death.

Analysis: Being that is the case, the scenario writers (whom themselves aren't exactly an army in numbers) will do research into the military as far as is considered important. Ranks, methods of referral and some military jargon will be found and utilized. Research into proper military tactics won't yield enough knowledge to accurately write battle tactics unless vast amounts of research is made. This is not even counting the research needed for animators to display such a setting.

Secondary query: What is the target audience of Nanoha? Are military buffs among them?

Observation: The target audience of Nanoha are fans of the magical girl and action genre.

Conclusion: Since the show was never meant to display a realistically accurate military setting, attempting to do a vast amount of research into correct military tactics is a waste of time and budget, and is better spend elsewhere.
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Old 2009-01-20, 16:32   Link #1824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Query: Is Nanoha a show meant to display a realistic military in a realistic military setting?

Observation: Nanoha is a magical girl show that has a bit of military sprinkled in. The show itself is meant to represent heroines battling the wicked forces and helping the weak through the power of friendship and beams of pink death.

Analysis: Being that is the case, the scenario writers (whom themselves aren't exactly an army in numbers) will do research into the military as far as is considered important. Ranks, methods of referral and some military jargon will be found and utilized. Research into proper military tactics won't yield enough knowledge to accurately write battle tactics unless vast amounts of research is made. This is not even counting the research needed for animators to display such a setting.

Secondary query: What is the target audience of Nanoha? Are military buffs among them?

Observation: The target audience of Nanoha are fans of the magical girl and action genre.

Conclusion: Since the show was never meant to display a realistically accurate military setting, attempting to do a vast amount of research into correct military tactics is a waste of time and budget, and is better spend elsewhere.
REBUTTLE: Then the TSAB will continue to be incompetent.
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Old 2009-01-20, 16:49   Link #1825
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FACEPALM: You're taking this military thing too damn seriously. This is like listening to that one guy in the movie theater complaining about every little inconsistency in a movie that no one would really care about.

Hasn't this been covered before? This is a magical girl show, not military drama.
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Old 2009-01-20, 16:59   Link #1826
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Originally Posted by Tempest Dynasty View Post
FACEPALM: You're taking this military thing too damn seriously. This is like listening to that one guy in the movie theater complaining about every little inconsistency in a movie that no one would really care about.

Hasn't this been covered before? This is a magical girl show, not military drama.
COUNTER: Actually, I'm not taking it seriously at all.

GUARD BREAK: I'm just pointing out why the TSAB seem so incompetent is that the writers aren't idiots, they just don't know how to correctly deal with military strategy and haven't done so much as read a book into it.

TEN HIT COMBO: And by cross examining the mistakes they made in duplicating a military organization, I am merely backing up my part of the argument. What was done, and what a mind who knew the least bit about their own military would do to set up given the resources at their disposal. Like I said, there are mistakes made that anyone who's a veteran RTS player wouldn't make. (Zerg Rush! I'm looking at you!)

K. O. !

"Ara... Daijobou?"
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Old 2009-01-20, 17:17   Link #1827
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
REBUTTLE: Then the TSAB will continue to be incompetent.
In the eyes of military buffs, yes, which as I explained are not the target audience.

It would be like me complaining about Fate's 'incompetence for melee combat' since she chose a scythe as her main weapon. Rather then complain about how a scythe is not a realistically viable weapon -energy blade or not- I realize that it was never meant to be realistic and instead sit back and enjoy the fireworks.
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Old 2009-01-20, 17:23   Link #1828
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TARGET MISS: Where are you hoping to get with this? Military this, military that; you can complain and moan about how incompetent the TSAB is, but your argument is only as strong as the number of people that care. However majority of the audience doesn't pay much attention an organization that is barely touched upon by the show itself. Had the writers cared more about this, they obviously would've focused on it more. However considering that MGLN is about the characters and not the organization, your complaints fall upon the ears of the uncaring.

Edit: Keroko ninja post ()
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Old 2009-01-20, 17:42   Link #1829
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Originally Posted by Tempest Dynasty View Post
TARGET MISS: Where are you hoping to get with this? Military this, military that; you can complain and moan about how incompetent the TSAB is, but your argument is only as strong as the number of people that care. However majority of the audience doesn't pay much attention an organization that is barely touched upon by the show itself. Had the writers cared more about this, they obviously would've focused on it more. However considering that MGLN is about the characters and not the organization, your complaints fall upon the ears of the uncaring.

Edit: Keroko ninja post ()
Funny how you're going after my breakdown, it's not my argument. My argument is pointing out that the writer's aren't stupid, just not studied. Why they're not studied is not important and you're wasting your breath in talking about it.
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Old 2009-01-20, 17:51   Link #1830
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But what is the point you are trying to achieve by pointing out that the writers aren't versed in military tactics? It changes nothing.

According to the story, Fate is an expert melee combatant. Realistic analysis would prove otherwise. Yet, because the story says she is an expert, she's an expert.

According to the story, the TSAB is a very successful military organization, capable of organizing and managing dozens of worlds. Realistic analysis of combat may prove otherwise, but according to the story, they are anything but incompetent.

Same tale, same conclusion. Jail won his battle because for the sake of plot he needed to, and the writers gave Jail several tactical moves rather then just having him zerg all over the place. I find this admirable writing for those not versed in military tactics.
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Old 2009-01-20, 21:22   Link #1831
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Keep in mind that the writers can be un-studied AND stupid. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

For story purposes, I'm prepared to accept Regius as a good reason why TSAB isn't more focused on anti-gadget doctrine, detection, prevention, yadda yadda. We know he's directly responsible for spiking dissemination of anti-AMF doctrine, for example. It's certainly not much of a further stretch to posit that he's been using his influence to keep TSAB away from things that would make Jail less effective - not with an eye to making them able to punch him out, just so that they don't get caught/tracked down and expose him in return. He's genuinely surprised that Jail ended up turning on him, right? So he's got a nasty suspicious mind but it's pointed at the wrong direction (i.e. Hayate and her subordinates, not his own mess). ;p

Personally, I enjoy having fun with the weird technical/societal/doctrinal aspects of Nanoha because it's there to have fun with. Sure, at the end of the day, "writers weren't that great" is the conclusion to come to. But it's fun to figure out how it might have worked. I had a lot of fun with that "hey, wait" thing comparing the TSAB strategy meeting thing to ancient Japanese military/political control structures, for example. It's kind of fanciful, sure. But it COULD work!

I don't know if you can make conclusions about Fate's scythe. Actual scythes are ineffective melee weapons because they're rather cumbersome and oddly-balanced. But Bardiche isn't a real scythe; he's a staff that happens to sport a (weightless, presumably) energy blade. Thus, the awkward balance isn't nearly as much of an issue, especially because he simultaneously increases his user's speed to compensate and then some. That said, Fate's also comfortable just whacking stuff with Bardiche as an ax...

Also, admonitions to "take it easy" now make me envision floating Nanoha and Fate heads. "Yukkuri..."
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Old 2009-01-20, 21:27   Link #1832
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Funny how you're going after my breakdown, it's not my argument. My argument is pointing out that the writer's aren't stupid, just not studied. Why they're not studied is not important and you're wasting your breath in talking about it.
I could say the same of your complaints of the TSAB not meeting the military standard you hold about a magical girl anime.
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Also, admonitions to "take it easy" now make me envision floating Nanoha and Fate heads. "Yukkuri..."
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Old 2009-01-20, 22:06   Link #1833
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
But what is the point you are trying to achieve by pointing out that the writers aren't versed in military tactics? It changes nothing.

According to the story, Fate is an expert melee combatant. Realistic analysis would prove otherwise. Yet, because the story says she is an expert, she's an expert.

According to the story, the TSAB is a very successful military organization, capable of organizing and managing dozens of worlds. Realistic analysis of combat may prove otherwise, but according to the story, they are anything but incompetent.

Same tale, same conclusion. Jail won his battle because for the sake of plot he needed to, and the writers gave Jail several tactical moves rather then just having him zerg all over the place. I find this admirable writing for those not versed in military tactics.
While admittedly, I'm but one step up from "Katanas are invincible" when it comes to melee and their weapons, and that might bias my thinking, one of the big differences between Fate and the TSAB is that Fate is consistently portrayed as successful. So while we might think that Fate would lose if forced into a melee fight with a real melee fighter, at the very least it is undeniable she is competent within her universe. Competence is relative, and if we are lazy (and we will be while Fate is doing well) we might be buoyed by the flow.

The TSAB, of course, isn't. It is portrayed to have catastrophically failed against a somewhat more competent foe, and that brings the investigators in.

An crude analogy would be if for the 4th season, 7Arcs brings in a competent (to expert eyes) melee fighter as a villain, and he p3wns Fate and Signum with ease. Now what would that do to Fate's image as a competent melee fighter?
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Old 2009-01-21, 00:24   Link #1834
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
An crude analogy would be if for the 4th season, 7Arcs brings in a competent (to expert eyes) melee fighter as a villain,
Funny you should say that, Zest already pwned both Signum and Vita in StrikerS, even if Signum finally did him in. If he had been in A's, The Wolkies would have been crushed in ep4.

Quote:
and he p3wns Fate and Signum with ease. Now what would that do to Fate's image as a competent melee fighter?
That would have to depend on how they go down, don't you think? There are so many ways to do it without making them look like idiots in a fistfight.
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Old 2009-01-21, 00:43   Link #1835
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
For story purposes, I'm prepared to accept Regius as a good reason why TSAB isn't more focused on anti-gadget doctrine, detection, prevention, yadda yadda. We know he's directly responsible for spiking dissemination of anti-AMF doctrine, for example. It's certainly not much of a further stretch to posit that he's been using his influence to keep TSAB away from things that would make Jail less effective - not with an eye to making them able to punch him out, just so that they don't get caught/tracked down and expose him in return. He's genuinely surprised that Jail ended up turning on him, right? So he's got a nasty suspicious mind but it's pointed at the wrong direction (i.e. Hayate and her subordinates, not his own mess). ;p
I'll actually think that he never really trusted Jail, not since Zest died. Remember that someone was quite noisy about Ep5 - that was probably Regius. What was probably the surprise was that they would dare, and can mount a workable raid into his HQ. That, at least, was the assessment shared by TSABbies, and is not a particular flaw of Regius.

And to be fair, the guy does have a strategic purpose that none of our heroines seem to share - to institutionalize capability into the Ground Forces. Right now, what security the TSAB provides is by Arcenciel and by what seems to be horribly few elite mages. The capability is individual, not as an institution, which is a very delicate situation to say the least.

Quote:
Personally, I enjoy having fun with the weird technical/societal/doctrinal aspects of Nanoha because it's there to have fun with. Sure, at the end of the day, "writers weren't that great" is the conclusion to come to. But it's fun to figure out how it might have worked. I had a lot of fun with that "hey, wait" thing comparing the TSAB strategy meeting thing to ancient Japanese military/political control structures, for example. It's kind of fanciful, sure. But it COULD work!
My sentiments exactly. While one should always be conscious of the stupidity of the authors, trying to analyze what works, what doesn't work, why they might make particular choices is a lot more helpful, and fun.

Quote:
I don't know if you can make conclusions about Fate's scythe. Actual scythes are ineffective melee weapons because they're rather cumbersome and oddly-balanced. But Bardiche isn't a real scythe; he's a staff that happens to sport a (weightless, presumably) energy blade. Thus, the awkward balance isn't nearly as much of an issue, especially because he simultaneously increases his user's speed to compensate and then some. That said, Fate's also comfortable just whacking stuff with Bardiche as an ax...

Also, admonitions to "take it easy" now make me envision floating Nanoha and Fate heads. "Yukkuri..."
Also, with the scythe, they showed Fate as consistently useful with it. SO while the scythe might be a poor decision, she does have the skill to force it to work (at least versus the opponents she faces), so it says something nice.

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Funny you should say that, Zest already pwned both Signum and Vita in StrikerS, even if Signum finally did him in. If he had been in A's, The Wolkies would have been crushed in ep4.
Point.

Quote:
That would have to depend on how they go down, don't you think? There are so many ways to do it without making them look like idiots in a fistfight.
Obviously, the example would have to show him being competent, so let's say he wins by using real world sword fighting methods versus the anime methods - rather than Zest's brute force win. Sorry I can't be more specific but melee is Keroko's forte, not mine.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Query: Is Nanoha a show meant to display a realistic military in a realistic military setting?

Observation: Nanoha is a magical girl show that has a bit of military sprinkled in. The show itself is meant to represent heroines battling the wicked forces and helping the weak through the power of friendship and beams of pink death.
Yes. Now, since they have chosen to sprinkle the military in, the parts we DO see should be made into ... well, at least something not hopelessly incompetent.

If they were really set on making a magical girl show, instead of seeing anyone fighting in Ep23, we should have all of them stay home and mutter sugary crap like "The Aces, I trust you" or "You are our only hope now, aces..."

Quote:
Analysis: Being that is the case, the scenario writers (whom themselves aren't exactly an army in numbers) will do research into the military as far as is considered important. Ranks, methods of referral and some military jargon will be found and utilized. Research into proper military tactics won't yield enough knowledge to accurately write battle tactics unless vast amounts of research is made. This is not even counting the research needed for animators to display such a setting.
If anything, as a whole superficial research will probably OVERESTIMATE what we can do, which is less of a problem when setting a baseline for your sci-fi/magic to exceed so as to look genuinely impressive. Superficial reviews the new, and the potential (for example, this radar can detect 300km out). Most of the time, it is digging deep that will review all the limitations of equipment (but not when the target is under 1000m in altitude), organizations and proliferation.

Quote:
Secondary query: What is the target audience of Nanoha? Are military buffs among them?

Observation: The target audience of Nanoha are fans of the magical girl and action genre.
Uh, Tk3997, Mirificus, ATC, and me don't exist? What was the point of sprinkling in the military if not to attract suckers like us?

Quote:
Conclusion: Since the show was never meant to display a realistically accurate military setting, attempting to do a vast amount of research into correct military tactics is a waste of time and budget, and is better spend elsewhere.
Like what.

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Old 2009-01-21, 01:04   Link #1836
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ITT: Everyone hates / bashes on the TSAB. And the writers.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Obviously, the example would have to show him being competent, so let's say he wins by using real world sword fighting methods versus the anime methods - rather than Zest's brute force win. Sorry I can't be more specific but melee is Keroko's forte, not mine.
It's a little unfair to compare real world techniques with anime methods. The settings don't really match, thanks to the inclusion of magic, and there are too many variables to take into account. At the same time, just because a person is defeated, it doesn't necessarily mark them as weak. The villain's victory would not alter the view of Fate's ability, but elevate the perception of the villain's skill to above Fate's, and by that, everyone else.

If Chuck Norris was defeated by Bruce Lee in an all-out fight, does it mean Norris is weak? No, it just says Lee is better.
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Old 2009-01-21, 02:20   Link #1837
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Of course we bash on the TSAB. So far, as regards to series including "bad guys are currently or formerly working for the TSAB", we're 3/3. It's not fair to say that everyone in the TSAB is a bad apple, but something is rotten in the state of Denmark! ;p
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Old 2009-01-21, 02:34   Link #1838
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But what is the point you are trying to achieve by pointing out that the writers aren't versed in military tactics? It changes nothing.


What's the point in this topic if it changes nothing?

If you don't like talking about it, just don't participate in this discussion. It's like walking up to two guys arguing about WWE wrestlers and starting up with the 'It's FAKE!' argument. "It's fake, it's just a show they put on to-GUAH!"

It's a quick way to volunteer yourself for a test of a pile driver.


To be fair, the TSAB are incompetent in terms of military perspective, but they can still hold their own compared to the attrocity that is THIS battle. At least with the writing for the TSAB, the writers, while not doing their homework, knew enough not to have people standing rank and file in the middle of the street (they stuck them behind baricades and such) and people flying like maniacs through the gaps between office buildings.

(Not to mention, of the attrocities in that fight, the Apaches engaging so close you could throw a rock at it, the apaches flying through the buildings instead of over them where they can use their radar and gun effectively, the tanks MISSING HUGE targets just up the street... people standing right around the tanks when they fire. *Big No No if you don't like going deaf.* The fact that the tanks are even IN that densely packed urban environment when they shouldn't be... Complete lack of fixed wing air support, which would probably have been there first, not attack helicopters...)

That's the kind of horrible attrocity you get when you don't do your homework, have no idea how the military works, and can't cover it up with Magical Girl goodness. "You have a helicopter that has a gun capable of pegging a target from three miles away. Your target is a giant snake-dragon on an office building. Why are you attacking so close it can lash out and bite the cockpit off?"

*Shudder* D-War ... I can't even force myself to enjoy it for the mindless action because it's just so WRONG. I have to go purge my mind with something awesome now... I think I'll go watch some DBZ Abridged.
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Old 2009-01-21, 05:57   Link #1839
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See, now what you're doing is rationalizing the writer's inabilities to apply correct military logic procedures to their writing by trying to link things that aren't really spoken about.
Yes, and that's what you are really supposed to do. While acknowledging the stupidity of the author, you try and find reasons for why they chose as they did, with a tendency toward picking intelligent ones. Or you find reasons as to why the rationalizations and alternatives don't work.

This imperative is actually shared between intentists and SoDomizers. THe author's intent is to make the guys intelligent, so finding intelligent reasons for their unusual decisions is a good thing. A SoDomizer notes that the organization is staffed by people of human intelligence, so they probably had something to their decisions, even if they are different from our decisions.

Quote:
It's the point I'm trying to make here. The TSAB come across as foolish in military perspective to military junkies because the writers didn't do their research.
To be fair, the rate of recent technological progress makes it hard to keep up. Even professional circles have been criticized for failing to keep up fully with the pace of military developments around the world.

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Because if real soldiers and actual military understanding were involved in the writing. The drones wouldn't be allowed NEAR the City without Jail showing TRUE cunning and jumping through all the hoops. The detection network would be tuned in to dealing with them as well as power spikes.
You are actually assuming that the detection network will have another dimension that's as easy to automatically cue in on as signature, or even that those Gadgets, with relatively low power, even emit enough to be detected at beyond the ranges they currently are.

Quote:
(You can't seriously tell me that after ten plus years of Jail doing his thing, someone's not going to have set up sensor detection suites tuned specificly to picking up the signatures of drones, AMF, or their side effects.)
One of the problems is that Jail has actually not been very noisy, at least not on Midchildra. Except for that one blowup at the airport, most of what he does are isolated and dispersed over very wide areas, and his activities until the StrikerS year were mostly things that won't be detected with some long range air radar.

Quote:
Again, if Cranagan were DC and the Pentagon was HQ, its security would be considered paramount over just about everything. There would be five times redundant sets of multiple security patterns to deal with, and a policy of No Nonsense to suspected threats. If it LOOKS like a hostile, it's a hostile until proven otherwise, you'd have interception scrambled if someone SNEEZED wrong.
Even Soviet Voyska PVO, who has a reputation for doing just that and was one of the most elaborate (if not quite the most high tech) and densest national air defense networks, managed to let Matthias Rust slip onto their Red Square. Meanwhile, all the air surveillance in America didn't stop a plane (a very large widebody at that) from kamikazeing into the Pentagon.

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Jail would be forced to operate more covertly than overtly, because any sizable force he were to mount would be met with a sledgehammer BEFORE he could move into position.
Actually, what evidence there is suggests that Jail gets where he does by moving covertly. His units almost always get to close to their attack points before they are even spotted. Other times, he deliberately exposes them, say for the test in Ep9.

Quote:
But, as the writing stands, the TSAB lacks any kind of real doctrine or procedure for keeping opponents at arms length from their most IMPORTANT city. Magical teleportation or not, they allowed Jail to get sizable forces within striking distance of the city on a regular basis. At the least, they should have forced Jail to constantly come up with new methods of approach.
Well, let's see your solutions:

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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Intercepts would occure at the six-hundred mile range... Not: Just outside the city limits.
Considering that their launch point is apparently well within six hundred miles of Curnagan (100 is more like it...), this would be tough!

Quote:
Instead, the enemy, their drones, and their elites are allowed to get well within twenty miles of Cranagan, a hugely populated city, before anyone things "Maybe we should go destroy them now..."

Ya'know... if they approached from the ocean, they'd stick out like a sore thumb. If they approached from land directions... someone would notice and call in about hundreds of flying drones if they were low enough to terrain mask.
The two times we saw them over the ocean, they clearly wanted to be detected.

Over land, what you are forgetting is how small those drones are - they are roughly human size. Which means that only a few hundreds meters out, they look about a pixel big. Even a professional observer won't necessarily detect something like that, especially if the drones blend in well - the greyish paint they use is not exactly camouflage, but should produce a reasonably low contrast against many surfaces that would make them harder to spot, and the different shades should help break up their pattern a bit. You've also assumed that they'll stay in one swarm, when it is at least as likely they'll be dispersed over multiple routes until the attack. Not many people will call in for four pixel-size dots flitting across their vision, and they won't be aware that four pixel size dots are whitting past 20 people's vision around the same time.

They might show up better on thermal detection, admittedly, but most thermal detectors
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Old 2009-01-21, 06:49   Link #1840
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
I don't know if you can make conclusions about Fate's scythe. Actual scythes are ineffective melee weapons because they're rather cumbersome and oddly-balanced. But Bardiche isn't a real scythe; he's a staff that happens to sport a (weightless, presumably) energy blade. Thus, the awkward balance isn't nearly as much of an issue, especially because he simultaneously increases his user's speed to compensate and then some. That said, Fate's also comfortable just whacking stuff with Bardiche as an ax...
The weight of a scythe is only part of the problem. A Scythe is not exactly designed to be a weapon of war. It's a tool of farming. There's a reason war scythes resemble glaives more so then their namesakes. Anyway, the point I was making is that proper research and realism was never the intent, I realize that, and so I sit back and enjoy the fights knowing so.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
While admittedly, I'm but one step up from "Katanas are invincible" when it comes to melee and their weapons, and that might bias my thinking, one of the big differences between Fate and the TSAB is that Fate is consistently portrayed as successful. So while we might think that Fate would lose if forced into a melee fight with a real melee fighter, at the very least it is undeniable she is competent within her universe. Competence is relative, and if we are lazy (and we will be while Fate is doing well) we might be buoyed by the flow.

The TSAB, of course, isn't. It is portrayed to have catastrophically failed against a somewhat more competent foe, and that brings the investigators in.

An crude analogy would be if for the 4th season, 7Arcs brings in a competent (to expert eyes) melee fighter as a villain, and he p3wns Fate and Signum with ease. Now what would that do to Fate's image as a competent melee fighter?
Fate has been brought down by more experienced fighters. Her first fight in A's against Signum was not exactly a stunning victory, Lotte in defeated her in a single blow a few episodes later. The manga had her lose against a AA rank teacher and the more experienced Chrono, and StrikerS had her tied up and left to Jail's mercy. Yet, as Jimmy said, all the result was that it made their enemies more powerful or skilled, it did not make Fate incompetent.

Now why is Fate not seen as incompetent? The answer is simple, despite her losses on the field of battle, in the end she always came out victorious. The same thing goes for the TSAB. Despite their loss against Jail's terrorist attack, they came out victorious in the end.

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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post


What's the point in this topic if it changes nothing?
I never said that the topic should change nothing, I said your point changes nothing.

We know the writers did not do their research, we know that realistically speaking the TSAB is horribly incompetent, however for the purpose of the story, the TSAB is competent. It is an organization that has rediscovered dimensional travel and controls dozens of worlds, while keeping an eye on dozens more. If it was horribly incompetent, it would have fallen long ago, and the story of Nanoha would not exist.

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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Spoiler for Dragon Wars rant:
Just from that clip, I can already see the idea was not 'how do we let the army fight Dragons realistically?' but 'how do we make the dragons look totally awesome!'

Heck, even I'm having trouble not rolling my eyes. I mean, the Apachis where something I can look past because I know very little about them, but an entire army is emptying tons of lead into a charging enemy force and only the occasional guy goes down? Anime sure helps making the stormtrooper effect look more acceptable. At least you see the shots missing their targets then.

Target Audience is obviously dragon junkies.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Also, with the scythe, they showed Fate as consistently useful with it. SO while the scythe might be a poor decision, she does have the skill to force it to work (at least versus the opponents she faces), so it says something nice.
And yet the way she makes it work, when analyzed, is horribly inaccurate. Following your logic, every loss Fate suffers (and she has suffered plenty) is because Fate is horribly incompetent.

Yet, for some reason, she isn't, while the TSAB is dogpiled for a single loss. When one looks at the situation, the answer is obvious: The people who complain about the TSAB's incompetence lack the knowledge to recognize the flaws in melee combat.

It's like a mirror, you military buffs see flaws in the TSAB's strategy where we see none. Reversely, I can see flaws in the melee combat where you guys see none.

The difference is that I accept it was never meant to be a realistic display, and kick back and enjoy, whereas you guys do not.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Obviously, the example would have to show him being competent, so let's say he wins by using real world sword fighting methods versus the anime methods - rather than Zest's brute force win. Sorry I can't be more specific but melee is Keroko's forte, not mine.
Brute force can make all the difference in melee combat, depending on the weapon. It won't do you any good with a rapier, but with hammers and axes, it can be the decisive key. Zest's weapon type is technically in between, being that it is a polearm-type weapon, range would be important. However, the size of the blade would suggest raw power being the decisive factor. It's weight would make it hard to move it quickly, thereby forcing you to take down your opponents with a low amount of blows to prevent exhausting yourself.

Therefore, while the rest of the fight is not exactly what one would call realistically portrayed (for example, despite being shaped to be capable, Zest never once stabbed with his weapon) Zest's 'I'll take her down with one powerful hit' is a viable, and understandable tactic.

The irony then comes that he is fighting a hammer wielding opponent, whom is virtually in the same boat as him.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Uh, Tk3997, Mirificus, ATC, and me don't exist? What was the point of sprinkling in the military if not to attract suckers like us?
I was also attracted by the military setting, and I don't think it needs to be said that I am hardly a military expert. The logic behind the military setting was most likely to move the series away from the typical Magical Girl feeling and into a more serious tone. However, that doesn't mean that military buffs are suddenly among the target audience, more like people who like a military side-dish. Kind of like how the wide diversity of weapons isn't meant to attract people hell-bent on realistic displays of combat, but who like to see a wide diversity of weapons in combat.

I have no doubts there are many military buffs out there who love the military setting, and simply shrug of the not-so-realistic display of it.

Fact is, if you were part of the target audience, then they would have done more research. Otherwise the only other alternative I can come to is that while they wanted to do more research, time and budget prevented them from doing so.

That, or calling them an incompetent bunch of nitwits. But I'd rather not call someone incompetent without a better understanding of the situation.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Like what.
That depends on a large amount of unknown factors, one among them being the budget they were working with in the first place. Design, audio, animation, editing, marketing, merchandise, post-production, there are many factors that come into play when making a media production, and budget 101 is quite simple, cut wherever you can. Of course, there are also other factors like time-constrains. Deadlines can do wonders for speeding up the 'shall I commit time to research this?' decision.
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