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Old 2009-01-22, 01:35   Link #261
holyman282
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Frankly I question why there is still a market for the weak ass type of heroes.
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Old 2009-01-22, 01:41   Link #262
TrueKnight
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Because some people if not most just seems able to relate themselves with weak ass hero type, especially harem ones (I'm looking at you Minato (Sekirei)). They simply won't bash this type of heroes because their weakness and pansyness is a given.

When we finally got an uber super saiyajin hero who seems cool and composed, reluctant to fight, but nevertheless has a good heart, people just expect him to do everything.
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Old 2009-01-22, 02:07   Link #263
taelrak
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Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Because some people if not most just seems able to relate themselves with weak ass hero type, especially harem ones (I'm looking at you Minato (Sekirei)). They simply won't bash this type of heroes because their weakness and pansyness is a given.

When we finally got an uber super saiyajin hero who seems cool and composed, reluctant to fight, but nevertheless has a good heart, people just expect him to do everything.

Why don't we ever see anyone asking to ban anime on that ground?

After all, anime is propagating a culture of irresponsibility (or anti-responsibility), where the greatest rewards come free to people for being what they are (being kind-hearted), but not for what they do, where weakness is glorified, and where even if individual responsibility and strength of character develop eventually, that first initial contact (i.e. the harem forming, or that superpower, or whatever) comes free and has nothing to do with any effort to come along. This in turn makes the whole hikikomori syndrome self-perpetuating, as people buy more and more anime with those exact themes waiting for their luck to fall upon them instead of working...indefinitely it turns out. Mothers against anime! Unite!

All I hear these days is anime should be banned due to violence, gore, and other such superficial censorship ideas. Bah. Boring.



Incidentally, I rather like the characters in Regios. I'm just bored and nitpicking...
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Old 2009-01-22, 02:10   Link #264
meh
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Originally Posted by taelrak View Post
And that's his problem isn't it? When it was so easy to get around this so-called "plan" of the President, to make everything work out, if he simply doesn't have what it takes to stand up and do what needs to be done, then why should we as the audience have any sympathy for him?

Also, the issue isn't about winning the game, but he clearly says it's okay if "I" lose right. That makes it even easier - he could stage a personal loss, but a team win, that would still have preserved the best of both worlds that he wanted to live in.

I have a problem with him because his actions aren't consistent with the goals he purportedly wants. He wants to not fight. He wants to get out of the platoon. He wants to get out of the President's manipulations. He wants to remain friends with Nina, who he admires to a bit, and Felli. In other words, he wants the best of both worlds while having a normal life.

Instead, his decisions are myopic and lead him exactly away from the goals he claims to want. He fails to distinguish personal loss from the team's loss, setting up the situation where he's forced to rescue a girl in distress yet again. He does not join because he thinks the city is in need - he joins because he goes along with the flow and is too weak to take a firm stand for what he wants. Each of his decisions leads him deeper into a painfully obvious and easily-avoidable plot by the President, even though he claims he hates being manipulated. He fails to follow his goal of not fighting - instead he makes a halfhearted attempt at *pretending* to be weak. He fails to even do that, but instead sets himself up into a situation where he knows or should have known he'll reveal his true powers.

At every point where he can make a decision, he always picks the wrong, most short-sighted, worst possible decision. Either he's painfully myopic or just there's just a gaping plot hole here.
I don't want to bring up spoilers, because I didn't think it was necessary. But you're basically making up assumptions of what Layfon should be, and they're so, very wrong.

Spoiler:
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Old 2009-01-22, 02:15   Link #265
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Now that i think about it, the best way would just be to stab himself. But may be it would have been too GAR, lol.

Agree, the process of how he did it is what matters. But the president sure has enough power to force Layfon into whatever he wants, after he confirmed his battle power. But why he continues going through all the trouble. I guess he cares about public opinion, and want Layfon to reveal his power publicity. So even "trying to win" and using some portion of the power he already showed before would still give the president excuse to put him into use no matter what latter.

Also as i said, Layfon does not know the strength of others teammate well, nor the enemies. So to persuade himself into his favor was completely normal.

Spoiler for .:


But i don't even know why we are arguing.

So I'm going back to my main point: you expect our protagonist to even think of all of this? It's hard to sort it out even with all the writing, man
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Old 2009-01-22, 02:18   Link #266
taelrak
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Originally Posted by meh View Post
I don't want to bring up spoilers, because I didn't think it was necessary. But you're basically making up assumptions of what Layfon should be, and they're so, very wrong.

Spoiler:
Nothing in the spoilers you offer contradict what I assert. I'm not saying he's some sort of genius superhero. I'm saying he should recognize what should be common sense that's right in front of him. I'm saying he knows instinctively what he wants, and he should know himself, and therefore he shouldn't place himself in a situation where his goal will be taken away from him by others and where his freedom of choice will be taken away from him by others.

Consider your average 9-to-5 average joe. Let's say he knows he's deathly allergic to cats. You can bet that he's not going to put himself in a situation voluntarily where he's exposed to even the possibility of being in contact with a lot of cats. He's not going to put himself in a situation where he knows it'll lead to him being unhappy or worse.

This is the same situation. Reyfon knows what he wants. He knows what he would do in various situations. He should not allow himself to be placed in a situation where his involuntary actions will force him to act against what he wants.

Quote:
So I'm going back to my main point: you expect our protagonist to even think of all of this?
Sure, why not? Some of it is a leap, but a lot of it is knowledge that he would have already. Besides, if it really means that much to him, as he seems to imply it does, shouldn't he take some time to think it over the night before? Sure, some of it depends on the changing situation on the battlefield that he couldn't have predicted, but a lot of it (the essential points), could have been carefully thought over beforehand. A lot of it is exactly the sort of thing he should be thinking over, since it's precisely on point about what he wants to do with the rest of his life, which is the major question he has for himself isn't it?

I'm not implying he should predict the future here. But since the very issue is his future and the path he wants to take (and the path he used to take), wouldn't it make sense for him to have at least thought about it a bit? Just a little bit of consideration about his own life would have led him down the very debate we just took, and he would have been able to avoid almost all of the pitfalls he walked into himself.
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Old 2009-01-22, 02:24   Link #267
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Okay, this is breaking down into i (we) say: "he shouldn't know this. It's complex" and you say "he should know it, it's common sense"

I DO NOT think all those pages arguing were just about common sense, for a teenager in confusion.

The thing i often see is: "If i do this...If i do that...Argh, it's too complex. I really hate this mess. Tommorow i will just do it like this, damn it." Tell me if it's not shounen-like.

Last edited by Cinocard; 2009-01-22 at 10:41.
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Old 2009-01-22, 02:35   Link #268
taelrak
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Originally Posted by Cinocard View Post
Okay, this is breaking down into i (we) say: "he shouldn't know this. It's complex" and you say "he should know it, it's common sense"

I DO NOT think all those pages arguing were just about common sense, for a teenager in confusion.

The thing i often see is that: "If i do this...If i do that...Argh, it's too complex. I really hate this mess. Tommorow i will just do it like this, damn it." Tell me if it's not shounen-like.
See above post about the glorification of weakness in (shounen) anime to see how I feel about that

Ah well... fair enough. We'll just leave it at that. I still don't feel it's plausible that anyone in such a situation could have come up with the "solution" Reyfon tried and thought it was a good idea under the circumstances, but well, I'll just be willing to suspend my belief for now since the anime's so entertaining
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Old 2009-01-22, 02:36   Link #269
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Okay, this is breaking down into i (we) say: "he shouldn't know this. It's complex" and you say "he should know it, it's common sense"

I DO NOT think all those pages arguing were just about common sense, for a teenager in confusion.

The thing i often see is that: "If i do this...If i do that...Argh, it's too complex, tommorow i will just do it like this, damn it."

@taelrak. Not going to keep posting serious reponses, since you apparently have ridiculously high standard a teenager who just moved to a new city and working/studying at the same time to make ends meet. So I'll just second the post above mine and leave it at that.

Edit: Or perhaps it's just me since I've moved to a foreign country for my study and work at the same time. So perhaps I'm just feeling kindly towards Layfan?
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Old 2009-01-22, 02:36   Link #270
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He cant avoid coming into contact with fighters lol ... especially not when every city NEEDS fighters to protect itself from mutant bugs lol. No matter where he went he was going to run into people fighting.
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Old 2009-01-22, 02:37   Link #271
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I disagree with that. That's like saying that after you get drafted for the army, the month before you go out to fight in a war, you don't have to take drills seriously because nothing's at stake. Try explaining that to your drill sergeant.
When you can probably single handedly take out the whole of said army, no, the drills are not all that important. The analogy made by Felli's brother that this must be a like a child's play to him that is hard to take seriously is probably quite appropriate.

Quote:
The city is at stake. The match here was in preparation for the city v. city fight, and the outcome of this battle determines each team's tactical position for the real battle. That matters a LOT.
How does swapping positions between your own teams constitute any pressing benefit ? We don't know anything about the position that was fought over, but knowing Nina's personality, it was probably a starting position close to the front lines. Which, shown by her hot headed and uncooperative attitude in the past, is probably among the last places where you want her to be.

Quote:
He's letting his team down, he's letting the entire city down, he's letting himself down. At the point when he's in battle, it doesn't matter that he was forced there, or that he didn't have a choice or didn't want to be there. He has no real allegiance to the city, but the point is that he is *already* there, and unless he really has no interest in seeing the city survive, he has an obligation to people other than himself to at least put in some effort. The way I see it, if you're living in a post-apocalyptic world where the survival of your city depends on results, you don't have the luxury of "just losing" in the semi-finals before you get to the finals. Finally, consider that in the next real battle, real lives will be at stake, and it matters strongly that you have people you trust in their best positions covering your back.
He doesn't own anything to the city, nor his team. 'Team' is a very superficial word in the actual case, considering the circumstances of him actually being in said team. Noby cares about what he wants, all they selfishly want is his cooperation which they are not entitled to simply because they pushed him out in the field.

Also, this situation is not comparable to an actual combat situation with lives on stake. He has already shown to not hesitate when the need to actually save someone arises (episode1). This is a situation where he can afford not to do anything. It would be quite bad if someone failed to make the difference between actual combat and a mock training battle. Stroking Nina's ego is not among the most critical tasks.

Quote:
And if he really feels that strongly that he doesn't want to participate, then he should take a stand, however misguided, and be clear about it. This would at least open up the space for someone who is willing, even if not able, to participate, instead of dragging his team down by pretending to suck.
That i can agree with - his stance should have been clearer on the matter. However, because he is more of a goodie two shoes than i would like, he was pushed in to a situation where said position was hard not to accept for his character, and the people pushing him there know it. Hence he is where he is now. But once again - winning said training battle does not constitute any actual benefit for the city as a whole, hence why nothing is lost if he doesn't care about the outcome at that point in time.
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Old 2009-01-22, 02:45   Link #272
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He cant avoid coming into contact with fighters lol ... especially not when every city NEEDS fighters to protect itself from mutant bugs lol. No matter where he went he was going to run into people fighting.

Yeah, his wish is actually absurd in itself. One day it will come down to *turning back at people dying* lol. This just tells how naive he is.

Anyway, anybody has an idea of when a HQ version for ep 2 come out? I just like it better to have a HQ in my collection. Does Ayako even do a HQ version, or is there just Yuurisan-subs?
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Old 2009-01-22, 02:54   Link #273
taelrak
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When you can probably single handedly take out the whole of said army, no, the drills are not all that important. The analogy made by Felli's brother that this must be a like a child's play to him that is hard to take seriously is probably quite appropriate.
The training isn't necessarily for him, but for the entire team--to learn to work together, to get experience fighting, etc. The US can singlehandedly take out entire armies with its array of air firepower, tactical and cruise missles and whatnot. Yet it still keeps a standing army and trains its members diligently. You can't simply toss a Reyfon out at the enemy all the time.

Also, to take the drill analogy further, there's also a difference in strength and discipline. Even if you had the strongest fighter in your regiment, if he lacks discipline, then he's only valuable to the extent that you can control him. Drilling also bolsters morale and unity and the discipline and rules within the platoon and the army as a whole. If he can be an exception just because he's strong, discipline will be undermined, as will faith in the unity of the platoon as a whole.

Quote:
How does swapping positions between your own teams constitute any pressing benefit ? We don't know anything about the position that was fought over, but knowing Nina's personality, it was probably a starting position close to the front lines. Which, shown by her hot headed and uncooperative attitude in the past, is probably among the last places where you want her to be.
True, but on the other hand, we may in fact want the intemperate ones up front, where they may have a significant morale-boosting and their more chaotic nature can cause more confusion in enemy ranks. The back, where timing, and keeping a cool head may be relatively more important in defense, might not be the best place for her either. We don't have enough information to judge on this point.

Yet, it's a fair assumption to say that better ranked teams (from contest results) get more important positions in the overall real battle. It's also a fair assumption to say that these positions should reflect the skill levels of the teams, their compositions, and their comparative strengths.

If you're hiding your true strength to begin with, then you are not giving a good assessment of your abilities to place you in the most advantageous position. Consider if Reyfon never revealed himself, they lost, and were placed somewhere on the left flank where little combat takes place. That's a huge lost opportunity for their side if Reyfon never even sees combat and isn't forced to fight despite his wishes.

This is also disruptive in that other teams more or less suited might displace them in the spot they *should* have gotten. If we believe the premise that an optimal tactical placement of teams leads to a better chance of victory (and we have no reason not to), then it should naturally follow that a suboptimal placement of teams would lead to a lower chance of victory.
Quote:
He doesn't own anything to the city, nor his team. 'Team' is a very superficial word in the actual case, considering the circumstances of him actually being in said team. Noby cares about what he wants, all they selfishly want is his cooperation which they are not entitled to simply because they pushed him out in the field.
That's true. But he's already on the battlefield, despite his wishes. Just because you are drafted into the army, does it mean that you can simply not fight? This might be true if you had absolutely no stake in the country or were against it, but for Reyfon, he doesn't particularly hate this city, and considering his good nature, he probably would prefer it be kept alive.
Quote:
Also, this situation is not comparable to an actual combat situation with lives on stake. He has already shown to not hesitate when the need to actually save someone arises (episode1). This is a situation where he can afford not to do anything. It would be quite bad if someone failed to make the difference between actual combat and a mock training battle. Stroking Nina's ego is not among the most critical tasks.
Well, he shouldn't bring his enemies to the brink of death of course. On the other hand, clearly some effort beyond what he displayed is necessary. There isn't a huge line-drawing problem here - it's sufficient to say that what he did was not enough (until the end).

Also, his lack of hesitation in episode 1 was a flashback, so for purposes of this contest, I don't find it too useful.

As for the lives at stake point - lives ARE at stake - just not in this instant combat. Yet, just because it's indirect and one step removed doesn't make those lives any less at stake in the long run. I'm not saying they may be lost, but they are certainly at stake since his actions here do affect the city's probability of victory in the real battle.


Quote:
But once again - winning said training battle does not constitute any actual benefit for the city as a whole, hence why nothing is lost if he doesn't care about the outcome at that point in time.
Sure it does. It doesn't provide as much direct and immediate benefit as say, an actual inter-city battle, but it definitely affects the probability of the city's survival and lives. Now, whether or not that it's *sufficient* to make the difference in the outcome of the final battle is another matter. However, given his position at that time, he can't say ex ante that his actions will not sufficiently affect the final battle such that he can afford to be so laid back at that point -- that's something he can only say in hindsight. Therefore, as to his own state of mind at that point in time, he has no excuse.

Last edited by taelrak; 2009-01-22 at 03:07.
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Old 2009-01-22, 03:41   Link #274
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The training isn't necessarily for him, but for the entire team--to learn to work together, to get experience fighting, etc.
If he works his best, the entire match is over in 10 seconds and no one gets any training done. On the level difference Layfon is compared to the others, if he became serious such concepts as teamwork become redundant. There is no teamplay involved in flooring all your oponents in a few moves.

Quote:
Also, to take the drill analogy further, there's also a difference in strength and discipline. Even if you had the strongest fighter in your regiment, if he lacks discipline, then he's only valuable to the extent that you can control him. Drilling also bolsters morale and unity and the discipline and rules within the platoon and the army as a whole. If he can be an exception just because he's strong, discipline will be undermined, as will faith in the unity of the platoon as a whole.
Thing is - Layfon is already far more experienced than any of the people there. There is nothing for him to learn there. He has shown plenty of teamwork and control in the flashbacks. Unity as the whole platoon isn't something i would expect him to worry about at the current situation either. I guess we are back at the viewpoint difference: should he give it his best because he is there, despite not wanting to be ? It seems our difference is that you think he should, while i don't.

Quote:
Yet, it's a fair assumption to say that better ranked teams (from contest results) get more important positions in the overall real battle. It's also a fair assumption to say that these positions should reflect the skill levels of the teams, their compositions, and their comparative strengths.
In this case it would only reflect his strength though, not the 'entire team'. Thing is, strong as he is, placing him inside an actual team he is supposed to cooperate with is redundant and would be slowing him down. If the other team was as strong as he is (flashback) then it is different, but that is not the case here. As it is now, said position only reflects Layfon's prowess, not that of the entire team. So is there any benefit for placing the whole team in a supposedly better position, if he is pulling the weight on his own ? It isn't reflecting the team's prowess - it is reflecting his. And while normally those shouldn't be seen separately, the difference is just that large in this case.

Quote:
If you're hiding your true strength to begin with, then you are not giving a good assessment of your abilities to place you in the most advantageous position. Consider if Reyfon never revealed himself, they lost, and were placed somewhere on the left flank where little combat takes place. That's a huge lost opportunity for their side if Reyfon never even sees combat and isn't forced to fight despite his wishes.
But that is the point, isn't it ? He does not want to fight. We can talk about "the greater good" and the like, but that is a rather double edged sword. One one hand the position can be understood, on the other hand it is a selfish wordplay for manipulating emotions. He doesn't want to be "on the front lines". He doesn't want to be on the battlefield at all. Yet he is forced there simply because it is convenient for some.


Quote:
That's true. But he's already on the battlefield, despite his wishes. Just because you are drafted into the army, does it mean that you can simply not fight? This might be true if you had absolutely no stake in the country or were against it, but for Reyfon, he doesn't particularly hate this city, and considering his good nature, he probably would prefer it be kept alive.
And he probably will help to keep it afloat in the end. This particular fight was not an actual battlefield though. Just because Nina is going gung ho because she has something to prove to herself doesn't mean everyone else should follow the lead.

I guess we can only agree to disagree whether the outcome of said fight actually benefits the city as a whole, or Nina's ego mostly. There is no immediate benefit, and long-term benefits (if any) are hard to judge without actually having a look at the initial platoon placement during the inter city matches. If we are talking about Layfon himself specifically being in a good position though, i believe advancing faster than the rest would be of little issue to him if need be.
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Old 2009-01-22, 04:10   Link #275
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Originally Posted by meh View Post

Spoiler:
From what you said I can see that Layfon was really a hero and super genius....
Spoiler for ....:


Heh I wonder if the news of Layfon's power will spread to other towns... ^^ since there is a possibility that the news will come to Grendan xD and people who thinked that he droped fighting might get interested XD and so like in many animes/mangas we could expect transfer students ;] maybe people that we saw in ep1 fightign that monster..... that would be funny
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Old 2009-01-22, 06:42   Link #276
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Stop this Layfon thingy already.

This series should have moar white haired loli with frills on its uniform!



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Old 2009-01-22, 07:37   Link #277
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The latest episode pretty much backed my Final Fantasy 8 suspicions. It looks like all domed cities fight in a live-fire only to back away peacefully if the winning conditions are met. Basically the same idea as the Seeds and Gardens (domes/cities) in FF8.
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Old 2009-01-22, 08:15   Link #278
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Yeah, to have military school in a fantasy world gives off lots of FF8 vibes.

But Garden in FF8 do not fight each other. And once is mercenary, other is for self military force. There's only 3 Garden in FF8 anyway. I'm sure The storyline will separate them soon enough
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Old 2009-01-22, 08:31   Link #279
meh
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Originally Posted by zibi88 View Post
From what you said I can see that Layfon was really a hero and super genius....
Spoiler for ....:


Heh I wonder if the news of Layfon's power will spread to other towns... ^^ since there is a possibility that the news will come to Grendan xD and people who thinked that he droped fighting might get interested XD and so like in many animes/mangas we could expect transfer students ;] maybe people that we saw in ep1 fightign that monster..... that would be funny
Being great at fighting does not translate to being great at other things. Just like plenty of real life genius professors and Ph.Ds actually having very bad social skills.

If anything, I'd say Layfon's "street smart" is almost non-existent.
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Old 2009-01-22, 10:57   Link #280
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Maybe we would see Layfon singlehandedly beat an entire academy city later on due to his broken powers lol.
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