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Old 2009-01-22, 13:29   Link #61
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
You just contradicted yourself. I disagree, Alto did have interest and whether it was romantically charged is a debate all on it's own but I'd rather not get into that since I've already said what I wanted to say earlier in the old romance thread. I can't truly say that Alto's and Sheryl's relationship was mutual based on the series because Alto only took notice to Sheryl once it was revealed that she was dying, while earlier in the series he was irritated at Sheryl and her advances, of course I'm not denying that they could end up a couple but I'm just not sold on it being mutual. You can look at both sides of the coin but nothing was proved in the end. Ranka asks for support, she doesn't completely rely on others in my opinion but if you see it that way, that's fine as well.
Look, if you donīt want to discuss the romance aspect of the show anymore, then you should stop dropping easily disprovable statements like this.

Alto was already impressed by Sheryl from episode one, although more in a "awed" way. By episode five, he showed a definite attraction to her. Sheryl sabotaged herself in episode ten, when she laughed off the kiss but recovered in episode twelve due to her dedication to let Alto attain his dream of flying in a real sky, even when she was down with a severe fever.

I think only Alto getting into protective overdrive over Ranka and Sheryl being bound to her bed for six episodes ( with little acts of defiance of her condition ) prevented her from closing the deal. Hell, in episode 16 it could have been all over, werenīt it for Michael barging in on them ( and the subsequent mission call from Cathy. ).

There is plenty of material which supports Altos mutual interest in Sheryl before she was known to be dying of the virus. Holding your hands before your eyes and trying to avoid noticing it does not change reality.

Iīll refrain from getting again into the ending of the series. Iīll probably write a little essay about it ( and the three main characters ) somewhen in the future, during the semester break.

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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
I also disagree with Alto and Ranka not having any chemistry. Chemistry doesn't just involve romance, but as a friend as well. In the beginning I would have to agree that both Alto and Ranka had chemistry as friends, they would talk to each other and Alto would help by supporting Ranka. They had good chemistry, otherwise they wouldn't be friends. As for the chemistry in romance, well I think you can say that Alto began to be aware of Ranka romantically from episodes 12-15.
Oh, I agree that he noticed Ranka romantically in that timeframe. Sadly for you, he had completely dropped that little romantic interest build up in those episodes around episode 17 and never recovered one iota of it.
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Old 2009-01-22, 15:17   Link #62
DeX-kun
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Look, if you donīt want to discuss the romance aspect of the show anymore, then you should stop dropping easily disprovable statements like this.

Alto was already impressed by Sheryl from episode one, although more in a "awed" way. By episode five, he showed a definite attraction to her. Sheryl sabotaged herself in episode ten, when she laughed off the kiss but recovered in episode twelve due to her dedication to let Alto attain his dream of flying in a real sky, even when she was down with a severe fever.

I think only Alto getting into protective overdrive over Ranka and Sheryl being bound to her bed for six episodes ( with little acts of defiance of her condition ) prevented her from closing the deal. Hell, in episode 16 it could have been all over, werenīt it for Michael barging in on them ( and the subsequent mission call from Cathy. ).

There is plenty of material which supports Altos mutual interest in Sheryl before she was known to be dying of the virus. Holding your hands before your eyes and trying to avoid noticing it does not change reality.

Iīll refrain from getting again into the ending of the series. Iīll probably write a little essay about it ( and the three main characters ) somewhen in the future, during the semester break.
Who said I don't want to discuss the romance anymore? The way I meant Alto took notice is more of a deeper feeling for Sheryl, I only saw him really care for her after she became ill, I didn't mean interests or attractions. I agree that episode 5 showcased Alto having an attraction towards Sheryl but I only meant that statement as Alto being tender and sensitive. I guess I was too vague, in the beginning, even in episode 5 he was annoyed with Sheryl most of the time. This is what I was trying to point out.
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Old 2009-01-22, 16:27   Link #63
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Who said I don't want to discuss the romance anymore?
Well, "but I'd rather not get into that since I've already said what I wanted to say earlier in the old romance thread." sounded pretty much like it.

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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
The way I meant Alto took notice is more of a deeper feeling for Sheryl, I only saw him really care for her after she became ill, I didn't mean interests or attractions. I agree that episode 5 showcased Alto having an attraction towards Sheryl but I only meant that statement as Alto being tender and sensitive. I guess I was too vague, in the beginning, even in episode 5 he was annoyed with Sheryl most of the time. This is what I was trying to point out.
Being annoyed by her was just him being tsun-tsun, because of his manlyness issues.

I agree that he just admitted to himself his deeper feelings for Sheryl when he was told that she was about to die. He then had to face the reality that he could not decide on his own time when he wanted to go forward on those feelings and then acted.

However, I date his romantic attraction to her quite before that point. I think episode twelve was when he realized that Sheryls feelings were not only for show but for real, when she collapsed on him trying to give him his birthday present.

Then, much shooting ensued. After the return to Frontier, Sheryl mostly was in the hospital. We got the sing-off in episode fifteen, which was a big signal to Alto that both girls had an interest in him, and then episode sixteen, where I personally think Alto showed quite clearly that he was romantically interested in Sheryl.

Episode eighteen at the latest had him showing reactions towards Sheryls which went far beyond "a bit more than friends".

To summarize, Iīd date his real romantic interest in Sheryl ( as opposed to being just attracted ) at episode twelve and at the latest, if you employ all negative modifiers, episode eighteen. Ranka had a little chance in almost exactly that space ( 12-17 ), but that fizzled completely.
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Old 2009-01-22, 17:07   Link #64
DeX-kun
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Being annoyed by her was just him being tsun-tsun, because of his manlyness issues.

I agree that he just admitted to himself his deeper feelings for Sheryl when he was told that she was about to die. He then had to face the reality that he could not decide on his own time when he wanted to go forward on those feelings and then acted.

However, I date his romantic attraction to her quite before that point. I think episode twelve was when he realized that Sheryls feelings were not only for show but for real, when she collapsed on him trying to give him his birthday present.

Then, much shooting ensued. After the return to Frontier, Sheryl mostly was in the hospital. We got the sing-off in episode fifteen, which was a big signal to Alto that both girls had an interest in him, and then episode sixteen, where I personally think Alto showed quite clearly that he was romantically interested in Sheryl.

Episode eighteen at the latest had him showing reactions towards Sheryls which went far beyond "a bit more than friends".

To summarize, Iīd date his real romantic interest in Sheryl ( as opposed to being just attracted ) at episode twelve and at the latest, if you employ all negative modifiers, episode eighteen. Ranka had a little chance in almost exactly that space ( 12-17 ), but that fizzled completely.
Ah episode 16, would that be the episode where Alto found Sheryl and she collapsed from her illness? Again, this is the major reason why I really have a hard time saying that Alto and Sheryl is canon. I know you've heard this time and time again but it just keeps coming back to how she's constantly feinting because of her disease. Although Alto still didn't know she was dying, he was worried because she was still sick and she was supposed to be in the hospital. I do understand however that Sheryl asks him why he was worried and he stutters because he couldn't find a way to answer her but it's really hard to determine whether or not it was because he had romantic feelings or because he was a worried friend, I admit it could go either way though.

As for Ranka, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss her even in the midst of the final episodes. Of course her absence didn't help her relationship with Alto but even with the time she was gone, Alto couldn't help but think about her. Yes, episode 23 lol, deja vu huh? I've heard plenty of opinions on that conversation with Klan Klan but I do believe that he still has feelings for Ranka even though he thought she betrayed Frontier. I don't believe that this is a "solid" confession but it does reassure me of his feelings for her, the flashbacks he had were those of his moments with Ranka on Gallia 4 and they were happy moments coupled with his loving memories of his mother. If those flashbacks had been those of her leaving with Brera or other scenes that weren't, "happy" to say the least, then I would have been inclined to say that Alto and Sheryl is a definite.
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Old 2009-01-22, 17:23   Link #65
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post

To summarize, Iīd date his real romantic interest in Sheryl ( as opposed to being just attracted ) at episode twelve and at the latest, if you employ all negative modifiers, episode eighteen. Ranka had a little chance in almost exactly that space ( 12-17 ), but that fizzled completely.
Episode 5. He blushed.

Still I see Alto as very dull to see that he attracts two lovely grown/growing up young ladies. He should have taken both wayne romance hello harem.
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Old 2009-01-22, 17:45   Link #66
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
As for Ranka, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss her even in the midst of the final episodes. Of course her absence didn't help her relationship with Alto but even with the time she was gone, Alto couldn't help but think about her.
That was what murdered Alto/Ranka for me. If Alto loves Ranka, why is he jovially talking to Luca about how they'll (as a group) bring her back eventually? Why is he perfectly content playing house with Sheryl an episode after Ozma left him behind? Why can he calmly discuss killing her for the sake of other people? Why weren't his parting words to Sheryl "I'll come back with Ranka" instead of a quiet "I'll come back"?

I would never argue that Alto doesn't care about Ranka, but the truth of the matter is that when faced with the uncertain death of both girls--whether by putting herself into danger, or dying of an illness--he makes the choice between them with an ease that borders on frightening, and shows very little sign of outward regret. And this is after Ranka cried and confessed her feelings for him.

Even in the last episode, it's not his overwhelming feelings of love that open a channel to talk to Ranka, it's Sheryl's last earring--the promise between him and her that they will survive this battle and meet once again.

I'm not naive enough to say that "love is more important than anything else", but if I was Alto and the girl (or in my case, it'd be guy) I loved left me and was going directly into the heart of alien territory, even if I felt like I had to stay behind with the ship out of obligation, I would be crawling the goddamn walls. My mind wouldn't leave that person for a second. I'd be frantic with worry, not talking like all we have to do is swing by and pick them up when we got there, or playing house with some other person.

The mere fact that he's totally comfortable doing those things while Ranka is in grave danger killed any chance their relationship ever had.
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Old 2009-01-22, 18:00   Link #67
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I think Alto have some kind of romantic feelings for Ranka...mostly after ep 10...until then i think he acted as her "brother". Overly protective and caring with her...most likely the cause is his pity for her. And that's why he felt emberassed when he found out that hes kissing with Ranka at the scene. Like someone asks you to kiss your sister.(and remember the character's culture is japanese...almost like kiss>sex). But after that he find out that Ranka can do "wonderfull things"(like she acted at the movie, Ranka's "live concert" at Galia IV). I think the happenings in Galia IV was the highlight of Ranka and Alto's "romance".
Back to Sheryl: Why i am thinking that Alto is interested in her? Because at the first episode he glared countinously her poster in his hands. It's obvious that he was not a fan of her...then what? Maybe he's attracted to her beuty? Maybe...then the mutual feeling part is done.
Other than that there's not a clue because Alto is a professional actor, so if it must he can "act love" easily.

Now the ovrall of the whole Sheryl vs. ranka discussion:
-Why the people belive that he loves Sheryl? Because they act like a couple. And if they act like a couple then maybe they're a couple...Most of the elements of a couple's signs were sighted: Date, kiss(not a one sided or "forced"), living together... Even if some of them a bit deniable but most of the people just see the actions, not the intents and situation.
-Why the pople belive that he loves Ranka? Because most of the typical shonen "love elements" are sighted with them. Blushing when they going to do something intimate, "I'll protect you!", worrying about her... to mention the most important ones. Most of the people who are at the side of Ranka is otaku or near to it(In Sheryl's case anime-newbies and otakus too, cause if you just watch the show bluntly than it seems like if Sherylx Alto is a real cople and the triangle ending has no ground[maybe it's true...but we can't see into Alto's mind]). Because of that they're watching closely for this kind of signs and they found out that he loves Ranka or they're pissd of that many people states that "SherylxAlto for sure!" and trying to find clues to oppose that statment.

Conclusion: Both groups are somewhat right.
My opinion: as i stated i think the Sherylx Alto is more possible...but it's my biased opinion.
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Old 2009-01-22, 18:23   Link #68
DeX-kun
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
That was what murdered Alto/Ranka for me. If Alto loves Ranka, why is he jovially talking to Luca about how they'll (as a group) bring her back eventually? Why is he perfectly content playing house with Sheryl an episode after Ozma left him behind? Why can he calmly discuss killing her for the sake of other people? Why weren't his parting words to Sheryl "I'll come back with Ranka" instead of a quiet "I'll come back"?

I would never argue that Alto doesn't care about Ranka, but the truth of the matter is that when faced with the uncertain death of both girls--whether by putting herself into danger, or dying of an illness--he makes the choice between them with an ease that borders on frightening, and shows very little sign of outward regret. And this is after Ranka cried and confessed her feelings for him.

Even in the last episode, it's not his overwhelming feelings of love that open a channel to talk to Ranka, it's Sheryl's last earring--the promise between him and her that they will survive this battle and meet once again.

I'm not naive enough to say that "love is more important than anything else", but if I was Alto and the girl (or in my case, it'd be guy) I loved left me and was going directly into the heart of alien territory, even if I felt like I had to stay behind with the ship out of obligation, I would be crawling the goddamn walls. My mind wouldn't leave that person for a second. I'd be frantic with worry, not talking like all we have to do is swing by and pick them up when we got there, or playing house with some other person.

The mere fact that he's totally comfortable doing those things while Ranka is in grave danger killed any chance their relationship ever had.
I see, you seem very passionate about what you say. Ok the way I see it, Alto is torn between 2 friends. This is really hard for Alto and he shows this when Ozma asks him what his wings are for, he screams in agony. Alto is torn between keeping his promise to stay by Sheryl's side until she dies or going to save Ranka but Alto knows better. This is where we see Alto show how he's developed because he simply doesn't go, not just because of his promise to Sheryl, but to protect everyone on Frontier and not just Ranka like he had been doing since the beginning, hence Alto's conversation with Klan Klan. Also, Sheryl's death wasn't uncertain, it was a given. She was going to die and there was nothing that could be done.

That is the reason he doesn't rush out there and save Ranka, because he wouldn't abandon the women and children of Frontier and on top of that abandon a dying friend. That's what reassured me of his feelings, he was having a hard time deciding and if he's struggling with himself that much then Ranka must have some type of importance to him. Both girls have an importance to him, but like I said I can't dismiss a possible relationship between Alto and Ranka, just like Alto and Sheryl can't be dismissed.
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Old 2009-01-22, 18:38   Link #69
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I see, you seem very passionate about what you say. Ok the way I see it, Alto is torn between 2 friends. This is really hard for Alto and he shows this when Ozma asks him what his wings are for, he screams in agony. Alto is torn between keeping his promise to stay by Sheryl's side until she dies or going to save Ranka but Alto knows better.
He wants to go save Ranka, sure. The problem is that his actions after his scream of anguish don't fit with someone who is still torn about what he has to do. If he was that worried about Ranka, I would have expected his melancholy mood to continue over several episodes. It was a tough decision to stay with Sheryl, but, again, he made it relatively quickly and doesn't show any further rumination over Ranka until she's brought up as a potential enemy.

Think about it this way. Sheryl was more important than his vow to never come home again and now, in this situation, she's even more important than the girl he supposedly "loves"? That makes no sense in a romantic context.
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Old 2009-01-22, 18:40   Link #70
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Both girls have an importance to him, but like I said I can't dismiss a possible relationship between Alto and Ranka, just like Alto and Sheryl can't be dismissed.
Sure, his relationship to Ranka by this point was that of an older brother type or close friend. Of course he is going to want to help her, especially as she runs away on a pretty stupid side-quest. Itīs been long established that he wants to protect her. But thatīs the extent of their relationship at the point of episode 17 to 25.

As Mosouka says, the next episode after Ranka runs off, he is playing house with Sheryl and calmly planning on bombing Ranka in the face. If that isnīt a big hint as to which relationship is the romantic one for him, I donīt know what else there is. But, oh well, him planning to kill Ranka seems to be taken as a big looooove sign by the Ranka crowd for whatever reason.
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Old 2009-01-22, 19:41   Link #71
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Episodes twenty-two and twenty-three are a transition period for Alto. Prior to episode twenty-one, Alto had used his relationship with Ranka as an excuse to pilot for SMS. By letting her go, he finally has the opportunity to be honest with himself, but this comes at a cost: he no longer has the luxury of playing "hero" alongside SMS. Ozma drives this point home at the end of episode twenty-two.

It's important to remember that Alto always has a choice. While Klan and Luca are also Sheryl's friends (to varying degrees), neither of them has an obilgation to stay by her side until the day that she dies.
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Old 2009-01-22, 19:52   Link #72
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As Mosouka says, the next episode after Ranka runs off, he is playing house with Sheryl and calmly planning on bombing Ranka in the face. If that isnīt a big hint as to which relationship is the romantic one for him, I donīt know what else there is. But, oh well, him planning to kill Ranka seems to be taken as a big looooove sign by the Ranka crowd for whatever reason.
To kill her is something that is expected from him. But seriously I doubt he does this on his own will. The plot that she Ranka should die from his hands came up after his meeting with Leon and Bilrer.

There is something that has not been mentioned yet and that is that his stepbrother reminded him of something:

"You're an actor by nature.
You perform the act desired from you for that moment.
You perform it.
Please think about it carefully once again."

Nonetheless if you are asking me how to see his act of killing her has something to do with romance, then there is one reason: salvation.
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Old 2009-01-22, 20:08   Link #73
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Oh, that is a very poor rationalization. Salvation by death? Yeah, right...
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Old 2009-01-22, 20:42   Link #74
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Oh, that is a very poor rationalization. Salvation by death? Yeah, right...
Why not? Alto comes from a Japanese tradition family... reminds me that we had this point already discussed and it ended that Death by Salvation is mostly not understandable for western cultures.
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Old 2009-01-22, 23:14   Link #75
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Iīll refrain from getting again into the ending of the series. Iīll probably write a little essay about it ( and the three main characters ) somewhen in the future, during the semester break.
Ooh....if you're planning to do a little essay, why not for our ship? We could use one for ship_manifesto.
Just a thought really.

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As Mosouka says, the next episode after Ranka runs off, he is playing house with Sheryl and calmly planning on bombing Ranka in the face. If that isnīt a big hint as to which relationship is the romantic one for him, I donīt know what else there is. But, oh well, him planning to kill Ranka seems to be taken as a big looooove sign by the Ranka crowd for whatever reason.
Well if Alto uses a flying analogy for a confession, maybe declaring to kill and drop a bomb on one's face is a way of showing mad love. With Alto, you will never know. /jk
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Old 2009-01-23, 03:27   Link #76
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Ooh....if you're planning to do a little essay, why not for our ship? We could use one for ship_manifesto.
Just a thought really.
Well, itīs just something I am planning. Could well be derailed by all kind of things. But if I go through with it, itīll be one each post for Sheryl, Alto, Ranka and probably a quite very long post for Sheryl X Alto.
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Old 2009-01-23, 04:59   Link #77
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Why not? Alto comes from a Japanese tradition family... reminds me that we had this point already discussed and it ended that Death by Salvation is mostly not understandable for western cultures.
It's not something "not understandable", bub. It's plain stupid. I don't care from which culture it comes from. That's my opinion, of course - and not something I'm actually willing to debate, per se.

Magnus, I, for one, am looking forward to your essays.
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Old 2009-01-23, 05:21   Link #78
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It's not something "not understandable", bub. It's plain stupid. I don't care from which culture it comes from. That's my opinion, of course - and not something I'm actually willing to debate, per se.

Magnus, I, for one, am looking forward to your essays.
Why did you reply then if you are not willing to debate? My opinion. The act of Alto is described as Ninjô and Giri.

For those who are interested, here is something on wiki which describes Altos moments where he talks with Klan. I'll just wrap it in spoilers so no one gets offended...
Spoiler for Giri and Ninjô:
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Old 2009-01-23, 05:37   Link #79
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Self-sacrifice is all well and good, as long as the rationalization is not simply "I'll kill myself (or somebody else) because I can't stand to go through this". The act of duty (self) killing for honor or the "greater good" is such a cowardly and dumb thing that I simply believe it not to be something worth discussing.
I'm just venting my opinion, here. By all means, derail the new romance thread with off-topic discussions all over again.
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Old 2009-01-23, 07:27   Link #80
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You just contradicted yourself. I disagree, Alto did have interest and whether it was romantically charged is a debate all on it's own but I'd rather not get into that since I've already said what I wanted to say earlier in the old romance thread. I can't truly say that Alto's and Sheryl's relationship was mutual based on the series because Alto only took notice to Sheryl once it was revealed that she was dying, while earlier in the series he was irritated at Sheryl and her advances, of course I'm not denying that they could end up a couple but I'm just not sold on it being mutual. You can look at both sides of the coin but nothing was proved in the end. Ranka asks for support, she doesn't completely rely on others in my opinion but if you see it that way, that's fine as well.

I also disagree with Alto and Ranka not having any chemistry. Chemistry doesn't just involve romance, but as a friend as well. In the beginning I would have to agree that both Alto and Ranka had chemistry as friends, they would talk to each other and Alto would help by supporting Ranka. They had good chemistry, otherwise they wouldn't be friends. As for the chemistry in romance, well I think you can say that Alto began to be aware of Ranka romantically from episodes 12-15.

Klang Klang? lol I agree here, they're relationship was revealed to be profound after Michel opened up on the roof. I did enjoy every bit of their relationship, from the constant teasing, all the way to the fighting.
It probably seems like I'm contradicting myself because my thoughts are all over the place. But what I meant was that Alto had no interest in her during the earlier episodes of the series, the only time he really talked to her was when him, Sheryl and Ranka were trapped in the shelter, before then he had no interest in either of them.

Also part of chemistry is being able to understand the other person, this understanding is lost to Ranka and Alto, as episode 21 and Ao no Ether, has proven. You can be aware of someone and still not have good chemistry with them, you can be a relationship with someone and not any with them, and really what good was that sliver of interest if there is no follow up. Its like refusing the call to step up to the plate.
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