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Old 2009-01-23, 09:51   Link #81
Swampstorm
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Strictly speaking, if Alto strongly believes in "serving his superiors with a self-sacrificing devotion", then why did he reject his father throughout the series?

Of course, this entire point is tangential because Alto doesn't specifically intend on killing Ranka. He's simply making a statement that he will protect Frontier at all costs, even if it means going to a war where Ranka's on the other side.

This shows how Alto's matured. He no longer needs to 'play hero' simply to have a reason to pilot. He found that his true reason lies with Frontier, and with the people whom he wishes to protect.
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Old 2009-01-23, 09:56   Link #82
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Couldn't agree more, Swampstorm. That's something most people don't really notice when criticizing Alto's character: how much he did mature, over the course of the series. I mean, he was not really the same person in the beginning and in the end (at least, up to episode 24).
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Old 2009-01-23, 12:45   Link #83
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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
Episodes twenty-two and twenty-three are a transition period for Alto. Prior to episode twenty-one, Alto had used his relationship with Ranka as an excuse to pilot for SMS. By letting her go, he finally has the opportunity to be honest with himself, but this comes at a cost: he no longer has the luxury of playing "hero" alongside SMS. Ozma drives this point home at the end of episode twenty-two.
You bring an interesting point, I always hear that he uses Ranka as an excuse to pilot for SMS but is it possible to say that maybe, Alto wanted to pilot to fulfill his dream of flying in a real sky? I think back to episode 4 I believe where Ranka fails to win the Miss Macross contest and Ranka asks him why he wanted to be a pilot. Alto responds with "I figured it was my chance, so you don't give up either." Now I found that statement interesting because I thought to myself what his chance was? His chance to fly and possibly fly in a real sky, which is what he wanted to do all along. This also has something to do with his father, and his motivation to create his own destiny. Alto seems to be a man of his word, so when Alto agrees to Ozma's plea to protect Ranka, he wouldn't back down from it, just like he wouldn't back down on his word to stay by Sheryl's side.
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Old 2009-01-23, 12:54   Link #84
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Alto seems to be a man of his word, so when Alto agrees to Ozma's plea to protect Ranka, he wouldn't back down from it, just like he wouldn't back down on his word to stay by Sheryl's side.
That pretty much nails it. Now, just mentally separate "protecting" from "having a romantic interest" and you are on the right way.
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Old 2009-01-23, 13:18   Link #85
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That pretty much nails it. Now, just mentally separate "protecting" from "having a romantic interest" and you are on the right way.
Ah, I'm sorry but my Ranka fanboyism won't allow me to do that The way you feel about Sheryl's character is the same feeling I have towards Ranka's character, we just prefer 2 different sides xD No but seriously, I have my reasons for thinking that Alto still has feelings for Ranka romantically, it's really hard considering we're discussing Kawamori's (and whoever else had a hand at writing the story) plot. This is exactly what he wanted
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Old 2009-01-23, 14:18   Link #86
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Ah, I'm sorry but my Ranka fanboyism won't allow me to do that The way you feel about Sheryl's character is the same feeling I have towards Ranka's character, we just prefer 2 different sides xD No but seriously, I have my reasons for thinking that Alto still has feelings for Ranka romantically, it's really hard considering we're discussing Kawamori's (and whoever else had a hand at writing the story) plot. This is exactly what he wanted
Continuing evidence that Kawamori-san is an evil, evil man.
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Old 2009-01-23, 17:16   Link #87
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Continuing evidence that Kawamori-san is an evil, evil man.
That's why he asked a reporter why Alto needs to decide if he have both.
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Old 2009-01-23, 18:30   Link #88
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That's why he asked a reporter why Alto needs to decide if he have both.
And then don't forget the double-troll by Kawamori by saying that he wants the LT decided in the movie but that it would be Alto's decision
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Old 2009-01-23, 18:51   Link #89
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And then don't forget the double-troll by Kawamori by saying that he wants the LT decided in the movie but that it would be Alto's decision
How is that possible? The characters in a story always at least partially embody the author's ideals! Kawamori won't choose, but he created Alto. He's trying to create a paradox and turn the universe inside out!
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Old 2009-01-23, 18:53   Link #90
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And then don't forget the double-troll by Kawamori by saying that he wants the LT decided in the movie but that it would be Alto's decision
Yeah, really. I know that sometimes characters write themselves, but letīs just say that I firmly believe that the end of the TV series was not as how Alto would have liked it to end.

Then again, I still think that if the last episode would have continued 30 more seconds, weīd have gotten our resolution.
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Old 2009-01-23, 19:08   Link #91
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Yeah, really. I know that sometimes characters write themselves, but letīs just say that I firmly believe that the end of the TV series was not as how Alto would have liked it to end.

Then again, I still think that if the last episode would have continued 30 more seconds, weīd have gotten our resolution.
"With just a few meters to go before reaching the hilltop where the girls stand, Alto hits an air pocket and the sudden loss of lift snaps his wing struts and sends him plummeting to the ground where he snaps his neck in the impact and dies instantly."

Kawamori hit the save button and leaned back in his chair, folding his hands behind his head as images of outraged fans with their empty threats on message boards and emails danced through his head. An inconspicuous post-it note on his desk reads "2013" in large red print. He opens a new document and, at loss for a real title, labels it "Macross 30."


And that's how my book about this thing would end.
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Old 2009-01-23, 19:11   Link #92
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"With just a few meters to go before reaching the hilltop where the girls stand, Alto hits an air pocket and the sudden loss of lift snaps his wing struts and sends him plummeting to the ground where he snaps his neck in the impact and dies instantly."

Kawamori hit the save button and leaned back in his chair, folding his hands behind his head as images of outraged fans with their empty threats on message boards and emails danced through his head. An inconspicuous post-it note on his desk reads "2013" in large red print. He opens a new document and, at loss for a real title, labels it "Macross 30."


And that's how my book about this thing would end.
Power fantasies about killing main characters are not good for you.
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Old 2009-01-23, 20:00   Link #93
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You bring an interesting point, I always hear that he uses Ranka as an excuse to pilot for SMS but is it possible to say that maybe, Alto wanted to pilot to fulfill his dream of flying in a real sky? I think back to episode 4 I believe where Ranka fails to win the Miss Macross contest and Ranka asks him why he wanted to be a pilot. Alto responds with "I figured it was my chance, so you don't give up either." Now I found that statement interesting because I thought to myself what his chance was? His chance to fly and possibly fly in a real sky, which is what he wanted to do all along.
It's fairly clear that Alto genuinely enjoys flying. What he's searching for is a justification to pilot a VF.

In episode one, Alto explains to Luca that he doesn't want to be a commercial pilot because he wants the freedom to fly wherever he chooses. The problem is that this on its own is a frivolous reason to become a military pilot, and Ozma and the others exclude him when he asks to fly alongside them in episode two.

Alto uses Ranka as his rationale for joining SMS. It's true that he's simply reaching for an opportunity: deep down, he only cares about flying. But this quickly becomes a sore point for him, as his situation is fundamentally different from his peers, each of whom have a genuine reason to protect Frontier.

Michael can see that Alto's reason for joining SMS is just a front, but he assumes that Alto is doing it just to run away from his father. This frames Alto's thinking, leading him to think that if he can overcome his "blood", then he can become a real pilot.

Alto's battle with the rebel Zentradi in episode twelve is a reflection of this; when he defiantly rejects the rebel leader's statements about "blood", his true defiance is aimed towards his heritage as an actor. But this victory is a shallow one, and the rest of the story discusses its consequences.

Ultimately, Alto finds his place not as an actor, nor as Ranka's hero, but simply as a pilot. One of the key moments in the series comes in episode five, where Alto asks why people sing or fly. While Sheryl's answer seemingly evades the question, it's really the key to the whole situation. Alto doesn't need to have a reason to fly at all: he flies because he wants to, and because he's meant to. With that answer, Alto eventually finds true freedom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
This also has something to do with his father, and his motivation to create his own destiny. Alto seems to be a man of his word, so when Alto agrees to Ozma's plea to protect Ranka, he wouldn't back down from it, just like he wouldn't back down on his word to stay by Sheryl's side.
When Alto sorties out against Ozma at the end of episode twenty-two, it's to stop Macross Quarter from making its unauthorized departure. If he specifically wanted to go after Ranka, then he would have asked to come along with them (or he would have followed them after they left).
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Old 2009-01-23, 20:47   Link #94
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When Alto sorties out against Ozma at the end of episode twenty-two, it's to stop Macross Quarter from making its unauthorized departure. If he specifically wanted to go after Ranka, then he would have asked to come along with them (or he would have followed them after they left).
I think by this point Alto had already recognized that he didnīt need to make protecting Ranka his top priority. After all, he already had the rest of the SMS crew and Brera doing that job for him. By this point, being with Sheryl and protecting Frontier clearly was his top priority.
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Old 2009-01-23, 22:46   Link #95
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I think by this point Alto had already recognized that he didnīt need to make protecting Ranka his top priority. After all, he already had the rest of the SMS crew and Brera doing that job for him. By this point, being with Sheryl and protecting Frontier clearly was his top priority.
If that would be true, he would not have any flashback memories of Ranka. And the most thing that has bothered him was that Brera and Ozma had lectured him.
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Old 2009-01-24, 00:28   Link #96
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Which flashbacks are we talking about in particular? I can only think of one set after Ranka leaves, and it's in the context of why he'll fight to protect Frontier, even if it comes at the cost of having to kill Ranka.

Was there another set that suggested that Alto wanted leave Frontier behind to go after her?
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Old 2009-01-24, 01:41   Link #97
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What are we talking about here? Alto flying because of Ranka? Him protecting her a top priority? It's nothing like that. It's as simple as him having an excuse to go by and live day by day without thinking about the real reason why he jumps into the cockpit of his Messiah everytime an alert is announced. Let's clear this up. Alto's issue in the series starts with his hate for his father and the way he contained him in the world of Kabuto. It was questioned by many why he left his house, especially by Michael who bluntly stated that it was nothing more then running away.

Alto was granted an option of flying but that's where the real problem starts. He inherited his mothers wish but it's realization was nothing like he wanted it to be. It's not like piloting a fighter and fighting for your life can be considered an even exchange for the realization of your dream. The rationalization part is lacking here. It's where a mental excuse to fight for something kicks in. My point is that this excuse to protect Ranka may have been what he used to live as an SMS pilot it was shallow enough to evaporate when faced with a true crisis.

It was selfish of him using such an excuse mainly because all it served as was to get him going and continue fighting. It's not a deep and moving declaration of feelings of some sort or anything similar for that matter.

The care for Ranka can be found in many other different places.
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Old 2009-01-24, 05:40   Link #98
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Which flashbacks are we talking about in particular? I can only think of one set after Ranka leaves, and it's in the context of why he'll fight to protect Frontier, even if it comes at the cost of having to kill Ranka.

Was there another set that suggested that Alto wanted leave Frontier behind to go after her?
Yeah, what Swampy said. Where did you get those flashbacks from?
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Old 2009-01-24, 08:01   Link #99
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Which flashbacks are we talking about in particular? I can only think of one set after Ranka leaves, and it's in the context of why he'll fight to protect Frontier, even if it comes at the cost of having to kill Ranka.

Was there another set that suggested that Alto wanted leave Frontier behind to go after her?
We are talking about the same episode starting with his conversation with Leon and Bilrer until the scene on the deck where he was talking with Kuran.

As you say it's in the context that he must wage to kill her if the situation forces him to do so. But it does not say that he does not care for her anymore or put his protective instincts for her to the bottom.

And also there is no need for him to leave Frontier in order to protect her this is something you do out of your heart with no matter of physical distance. If he was not able to see this himself, than we can be glad that Sheryl asks him to save her even through their (friendly) rivalry.
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Old 2009-01-24, 09:28   Link #100
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The discussion is a bit pointless because:
-Ranka wins in the sense of classic shonen relationship
-Sheryl wins in the sense of common world(Alto and Sheryl's actions to each other were more direct and it indicates more that they're a couple in public)
-Alto is a professional actor who can easily act even "love". He always does what his enviroment wants from him(almost).

So the whole ground is equal somewhat because we totaly uncertain about Alto's feelings...maybe a bit biased to Sheryl because of the later episodes, but it's not so that it's certainly decided.
Maybe we can switch from the main romance part...
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