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Old 2009-01-23, 22:17   Link #821
Lathdrinor
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Quote:
The only thing that will be left is power? HARD power?

Well, we here in the states are the ones with the military that gets more funding than the next five nations combined, the ones with the stealth fighters, enough nuclear submarines to erase any nation, the biggest GDP...so yes, PLEASE disband the UN and make it so that might makes right.
That's fine if all you care about is the US. Some of us prefer to take a broader view.
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Old 2009-01-23, 22:23   Link #822
Mystery777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
As for Palestinians suffering injustice, that's a hoot. Guess what? All the other Arab nations combined have like 10000x the land Israel does. Why don't THEY take their beleaguered brethren in?
Probably the same reason why YOU won't take your beloved spoilt child and offer it one of your 50+ states. Besides, whose land was it in the very first place?!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
As for anyone would do what the Palestinians did...last I checked, the Jews in the warsaw ghetto or the gulags didn't go and suicide bomb. So no.
They don't NEED to do that. They already get what they want whenever they want.
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Old 2009-01-23, 22:27   Link #823
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
The only thing that will be left is power? HARD power?

Well, we here in the states are the ones with the military that gets more funding than the next five nations combined, the ones with the stealth fighters, enough nuclear submarines to erase any nation, the biggest GDP...so yes, PLEASE disband the UN and make it so that might makes right.

As for Palestinians suffering injustice, that's a hoot. Guess what? All the other Arab nations combined have like 10000x the land Israel does. Why don't THEY take their beleaguered brethren in?

BECAUSE NOBODY LIKES THE PALESTINIANS. The end! They're a propaganda tool for Muslims worldwide, and a parasite to the world. That's not opinion. That's simply empiric conclusions.

As for anyone would do what the Palestinians did...last I checked, the Jews in the warsaw ghetto or the gulags didn't go and suicide bomb. So no.
Are you conveniently forgetting the actions of Jewish terrorists who murdered Yitzhak Rabin, tried to blow up Temple Mount, car bomb Palestinians (Gush Emunim Underground), attacked British in 1948 and earlier as well as massacres of Arabs prior to 1948 by the Irgun and others?

And Palestinians are parasites now eh? would you say that of almost everyone else in the third world then?

Last edited by Cosmic Eagle; 2009-01-23 at 22:40.
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Old 2009-01-23, 22:59   Link #824
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
The rules of war are a joke. Especially because Hamas was elected with an overwhelming majority.
In that case, I assume you would also agree that Iraqis have the right to kill American civilians. And that you think Afghans have the right to kill me personally, despite the fact that the manner of strategic voting I use in federal elections means that I've never actually voted for a party that supports the war effort in Afghanistan.

Oh, and just for as a little note, check Hamas' support levels in the Gaza strip right now - certainly not a majority anymore. Also, 76% of Palestinians supported extending the ceasefire back in December.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
No nation should ever be responsible in any way, shape, or form for providing another nation with anything. If Gazans hate Israel so much, Israel should just cut off all food, water, and electricity it provides, and tell Hamas to provide that for their own people and see how far things go.
This logic might work better if the IDF wasn't cutting off shipping routes that don't go through Israel too (remember, Gaza is coastal). Any government that doesn't do something to provide for a population after cutting it off in such a manner is a monster, plain and simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
As for criticizing Israel: yes, it is above criticism. At least on the magnitude it gets. Tell me: where are the rallies and the protests every time there's an attack on Israel? Where are the rallies to stop the genocide in Darfur, the oppression of the Nepalese by the Chinese, and I can go on and on.
http://www.idrewthis.org/d/20040305.html
Sums up why most people don't bother protesting China right there - although protesting for a ban on trade with China could be interesting, since that actually would apply pressure.
Second, Israel gets targetted for the same reason people protest US agression abroad: because people think western countries should be against such barbarianism, and believe that western countries will actually respond to such criticism - which is probably a poor assumption.
Third, I criticize Israeli aggression because I get annoyed when people try and write it off as acceptable - something I don't see a lot of people doing for China and the like. It's especially annoying when the response I get to criticisms like, say, bombing police because they might fight for Hamas, people just go and start talking about how this is all a defensive action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
Those "protests" are poorly masked antisemitism. The end.
Yeah, I'm sure the sizeable Arab-Canadian community agrees with your assessment of their efforts to try and do something for their kinsmen.

Not the response I wanted to make to this point, but I like not getting banned, so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
And as for human life being sacred/precious/priceless: it isn't. Nobody's is. Because there's something called the "costs of living". Pay them or mother nature will deal with you in short order.
Sorry for considering human life to be worth something then. Freaking hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ermes Marana View Post
A major goal is to reduce the rocket attacks.
I doubt the level of force applied in this conflict was necessary to get Hamas to agree to another ceasefire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
hamas represents the world view that says "if we fight for another hundred years, maybe the jews would pack up and leave"
and its that world view that has kept the palestinian people in the sad state that they have been in during the last 60 years
ditch that mindframe, and you have a palestinain state in five years at the longest
I like idealism, but I'm afraid most of the Palestinian population doesn't believe that Israel will give up anything without being compelled.
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Old 2009-01-23, 23:08   Link #825
Demongod86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystery777 View Post
Probably the same reason why YOU won't take your beloved spoilt child and offer it one of your 50+ states. Besides, whose land was it in the very first place?!




They don't NEED to do that. They already get what they want whenever they want.
Actually, I wouldn't mind AT ALL if there was a large chunk of land given to the Jews here in America somewhere in the desert, because odds are, they'd build solar power plants all over the place and turn it into something beautiful anyway. In fact, I'd argue that we need more Israeli-minded people in the states.

As for they don't NEED to do that...I'm done with you. Way to miss the historical reference. I'm not getting through to you, that's clear, so I'm done with you.
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Old 2009-01-23, 23:17   Link #826
Demongod86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
In that case, I assume you would also agree that Iraqis have the right to kill American civilians. And that you think Afghans have the right to kill me personally, despite the fact that the manner of strategic voting I use in federal elections means that I've never actually voted for a party that supports the war effort in Afghanistan.

Oh, and just for as a little note, check Hamas' support levels in the Gaza strip right now - certainly not a majority anymore. Also, 76% of Palestinians supported extending the ceasefire back in December.



This logic might work better if the IDF wasn't cutting off shipping routes that don't go through Israel too (remember, Gaza is coastal). Any government that doesn't do something to provide for a population after cutting it off in such a manner is a monster, plain and simple.



http://www.idrewthis.org/d/20040305.html
Sums up why most people don't bother protesting China right there - although protesting for a ban on trade with China could be interesting, since that actually would apply pressure.
Second, Israel gets targetted for the same reason people protest US agression abroad: because people think western countries should be against such barbarianism, and believe that western countries will actually respond to such criticism - which is probably a poor assumption.
Third, I criticize Israeli aggression because I get annoyed when people try and write it off as acceptable - something I don't see a lot of people doing for China and the like. It's especially annoying when the response I get to criticisms like, say, bombing police because they might fight for Hamas, people just go and start talking about how this is all a defensive action.



Yeah, I'm sure the sizeable Arab-Canadian community agrees with your assessment of their efforts to try and do something for their kinsmen.

Not the response I wanted to make to this point, but I like not getting banned, so...



Sorry for considering human life to be worth something then. Freaking hell.



I doubt the level of force applied in this conflict was necessary to get Hamas to agree to another ceasefire.



I like idealism, but I'm afraid most of the Palestinian population doesn't believe that Israel will give up anything without being compelled.
1) Iraqis do have the right to kill American civilians. Because it's not like the rules of war are going to stop them anyway. It's just that they CAN'T. Because if they tried, rules of war or not, we'd give it back to them a thousand times over. This is what you call "deterrence".

2) Well we can just wait and see what happens to Hamas and if the Palestinians are capable of getting rid of them.

3) Israel has every right to see to its defense. So it has every right to cut off that which will strengthen its enemy. If the Palestinians don't like it, they can try to fight it, but if they do so, should expect to be fought back the way Israel wants.

4) The west not supporting barbarism? Hah! We support what WORKS, not some silly-ass ideal that'll put our people in harm's way .

5) Well it's not so much that Israeli aggression is acceptable so much as it's RELATIVELY acceptable. When Hamas is trying to kill Israeli civilians wholesale, it's definitely acceptable, since at that point, all bets are off. That's like someone going for a low-blow in a fight. I don't care if they're one hundred pounds lighter and half as strong. If they go for a low blow, you have the right to do anything you want to them.

6) Arab-Canadian? ARAB-Canadian. Nuff said? I'm secure in the fact that I'm anti-Arab and have preconceptions that get proven wrong on a case by case basis. I wonder if you're secure in the fact that there may be thousands to millions among that community that are of the same mindset the other way.

7) Don't want to get banned? You and me both.

8) A stranger's life is worth nothing. Tell me, if you had to pay a penny a day for every impoverished soul on the planet, would you do so? Of course not. And I wouldn't blame you, either.

9) Hamas never maintains a cease-fire for long. So this attack was meant to make them go back and lick their wounds rather than attacking again. It's not only militaristic, but psychological.


As to who asked me if I think every third world country is a parasite:

If it gets more foreign aid than it adds value to the world, then...

Completely and absolutely are they parasites. By the very definition of the word.
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Old 2009-01-23, 23:21   Link #827
Lathdrinor
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It's not even about that. The general problem with his line of argument, with regards to this, is that plenty of people protested China. Have we already forgotten the Olympic torch run disruptions? The people who flew to China just to unfurl a "Free Tibet" banner in Tiananmen Square? The boycott campaigns and the "Genocide Olympics" banners? It was a big deal.

And now that the spotlight is on Israel, it's "just anti-Semitism?" Seriously, what do you expect when you carry out a military campaign in 2008/2009 that kills 1,200+ people, a large chunk of them women and children? That the world would simply turn a blind eye and chant, "go Israel?" The liberal left would not be the liberal left if it did that.

The reaction (protests) is consistent with what I expected from a major offensive in the highly visible Gaza area. Equally consistent is how ineffective the protests generally were. It's possible that the age of liberal protest movements is ending.
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Old 2009-01-23, 23:50   Link #828
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
I'm not getting through to you, that's clear, so I'm done with you.
No, you're getting through to everyone quite clearly... its just embarrassing to watch.
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Old 2009-01-23, 23:57   Link #829
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
2) Well we can just wait and see what happens to Hamas and if the Palestinians are capable of getting rid of them.
Based on what I've been seeing, the main thing the Palestinians lack for getting rid of Hamas is leadership and organization. That's what tends to separate successful movements from non-successful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
4) The west not supporting barbarism? Hah! We support what WORKS, not some silly-ass ideal that'll put our people in harm's way .
I don't expect people to live up to ideals - I expect them to live up to realistic approximations of them. Bombing police officers on weak pretexts means you're not doing so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
5) Well it's not so much that Israeli aggression is acceptable so much as it's RELATIVELY acceptable. When Hamas is trying to kill Israeli civilians wholesale, it's definitely acceptable, since at that point, all bets are off. That's like someone going for a low-blow in a fight. I don't care if they're one hundred pounds lighter and half as strong. If they go for a low blow, you have the right to do anything you want to them.
My main problem with this is that the people being killed often aren't the ones that were launching rockets and such.

Second, I'm still skeptical that this conflict actually puts us any closer to peace in region. The moral course of action is the one that brings this conflict to a close fastest with the least bloodshed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
6) Arab-Canadian? ARAB-Canadian. Nuff said? I'm secure in the fact that I'm anti-Arab and have preconceptions that get proven wrong on a case by case basis. I wonder if you're secure in the fact that there may be thousands to millions among that community that are of the same mindset the other way.
Whether they're Arab or not isn't the point. I'd expect any other ethnic group in Canada to act the same why if it was their kinsmen were being bombed by a western country.

As for Arabs... I don't like a lot of attitudes held in Arab countries, but most Arab-Canadians have a pretty westernized mindset, so I don't care much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
8) A stranger's life is worth nothing. Tell me, if you had to pay a penny a day for every impoverished soul on the planet, would you do so? Of course not. And I wouldn't blame you, either.
The fact that I look out for my self first does not mean that others lives are worthless. The fact they have no real impact on my life does not invalidate the worth of their experiences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
9) Hamas never maintains a cease-fire for long. So this attack was meant to make them go back and lick their wounds rather than attacking again. It's not only militaristic, but psychological.
Personally, I'd be careful of assuming that regular psychology applies to extremists. For them, the fight is more important than winning, so I suspect their downtime will be more related to when they feel the need to prove their "manhood" again rather than rational calculations.
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Old 2009-01-24, 00:51   Link #830
TinyRedLeaf
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
It isn't really "urban warfare" without a lot of ground troops. A 4:1 advantage is recommended, though I suspect the war's popularity in Israel would drop like stone if actual risk were involved.
Actually, the recommended relative combat strength for urban warfare is 7:1, that is, seven soldiers to tackle one enemy fighter. In conventional warfare, that ratio falls to 3:1.

Urban warfare is an infantryman's worst nightmare. There are far too many rooftops, balconies, stairwells and street corners to monitor, hence the need for as many pairs of eyes on the ground as possible. Even then, casualties are usually expected to be very high — which is part of what makes the Israelis' tactics remarkable in this case, because their reported casualties are so low. That's probably partly because the Hamas weren't that strong in the first place, but also very probably because the IDF has implemented more effective combat tactics since Lebanon.

From the political point of view, the IDF proved that it has very large balls, and that it isn't afraid to swing them. Mission accomplished on that front.

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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
So if Hamas were inside Israel using the same tactics, you'd do exactly the same thing?
That would be a chilling scenario. I recently had to evaluate potential responses to such situations, and let's just say the final outcome is neither satisfactory nor pleasant (think Mumbai). Israel would have to be royally screwed by its military intelligence for something like that to occur in, say, Tel Aviv. The best solution is not to allow such a disaster to unfold in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
from the diplomatic front- nothing more could have been done
once israel pulled out of the strip there wasnt much more that could have been done
I wonder, sometimes, if that's really the case. Is it "nothing more could have been done" or "we don't want to think of any other way to get it done"?

But that's all moot now. The deed has already been done, so now we have consequences to deal with. We reap what we sow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
from a millitery POV there is some things that i think could have been done differently (keep in mind that i dont know the full details)
1)the air force could have potentially used less powerful explosives when dealing with tagets that are located in civilian areas (but that also risks that the strike wouldnt be effective, past expiriance)
2)the ground forces could have used more care when imploying artilry fire against targets (as the cannons have a statistical chance of missing or causing area damage)
3)the general use of artilery could have been avoided when units are fighting in urben areas and instead replaced entirely by either gunboat or fighter support (i admit that i dont know the logistics involved in such use) as it would allow those firing to have a clearer view of the target area
4)the daily 3 hour-cease-fires could have been made longer (4-5 hours)
5)the deceition to keep reporters out could have been done better (letting reporters join IDF ground forces to give them a better view, as was done with several israeli reporters)...

...6)there was a process that the IDF used to imploy several years ago that was ruled illegal by the israeli court system (and therfor, no longer used) which could have potentially reduces the death toll
it was called "nohal shahen"
it basiclly ment that if there is a house where you believe that armed milltents are hiding, you send someone who lives in the area to knock on the door and ask them to surrender
if they dont, you bulldoze the house with them inside
it often proved effective becouse
A)the procepect of being buried alive by a 100 ton steel death machine is normally enough to convince most people to surrender
B)it puts the IDF soldiers at no risk as the D9 bulldozzer (code named: teddy-bear) cant be damaged by anything the millitents are likely to have, and it saves them the risk of warning the people inside the house themselves (they could end up taking fire after all)
C)there is an honest attemped to convince the people inside to surrender and a way to confirm if there are non combatents inside the house (in which case, a different strategy could be used)
the process was ruled illegal becouse it puts the innocent person who tries to warn the people inside the house to surrender in danger (he is after all an innocent civilian)
as it stands since the soldiers cant know for sure if there are innocents inside, and dont have a way to find out, its all they can do to just put a tank shell in the house and move on to the next

there were mistakes made on the ground as is the case in ALL wars
but care was taken as much as possible to limit the death toll
Interesting. No doubt, some heads are probably already hard at work studying the tactics used.
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Old 2009-01-24, 00:55   Link #831
ZephyrLeanne
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Quote:
...the IDF proved that it has very large balls. Mission accomplished on that front.
Actually, it's a cultural thing, really. Go read the Old Testament.
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Old 2009-01-24, 01:45   Link #832
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thingle View Post
Okay! Question of the day..

Who's gonna cry foul when the next Palestinian rocket hits an Israeli home and produces casualties?

Will you, TinyRedLeaf, Vexx, 0utf0xzer0? I don't think so. Maybe you'll even try to justify it.
I explained this already:
1) I criticize Israel because I expect first world governments to actually listen to criticism, whereas Hamas is a bunch of monsters and a lost cause. I put the onus on Israel to do what I think is right because I honestly think Hamas will never do so.
2) I also keep posting criticisms because people keep saying the IDF's level of force and selection of targets was appropriate, and that this conflict will produce desirable outcomes. I disagree on these points. Has anyone disagreed with the consensus that Hamas is bad? Hard to debate with only one side unless you're very good at playing devil's advocate.

Oh, and I never defend Hamas attacks on civilians. I do, however, explain the driving mindset behind the such attacks and extrapolate likely results.
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Old 2009-01-24, 01:53   Link #833
Demongod86
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See this is the thing...nobody ever gives Israel a reason to listen to any criticism, ever.

America will never change its rabid pro-Israel policy stance, which is a good thing, and the rest of the world doesn't give a damn about the Jewish people.

The end.

If people want Israel to listen, they should provide it with incentives to do so.
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Old 2009-01-24, 01:54   Link #834
Zippicus
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Originally Posted by Mystery777 View Post
Probably the same reason why YOU won't take your beloved spoilt child and offer it one of your 50+ states. Besides, whose land was it in the very first place?!
The Cannanites, back in the bronze age.
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Old 2009-01-24, 02:07   Link #835
relentlessflame
 
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Okay... I think it's definitely time for a 2.8 here, at least for a little while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forum Rules 2.8
Please be aware that political and religious discussions often cause very heated debates with little give or take on either side. They normally start out interesting and sensible but degrade rapidly. This produces the same arguments repeatedly for pages and induces many members to start "flaming" each other. Such topics will most likely be closed unless care is taken to keep the thread both interesting and polite.
I don't think this thread is passing the litmus test mentioned in the above rule. We're getting into the flames, going around in circles, and I'm pretty sure we're past being "polite" when we start asking who will cry foul when more innocent people die. What idiotic drivel.

Conversation over.
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