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View Poll Results: Toradora! - Episode 16 Rating
Perfect 10 108 61.02%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 47 26.55%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 10 5.65%
7 out of 10 : Good 8 4.52%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 1.69%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.56%
Voters: 177. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-01-24, 10:41   Link #161
heppu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyanme View Post
This, however, proves to me that Taiga's feelings towards Kitamura were at least very strong or true. I hope it's the former, since I don't really like him. They're more fun as friends, anyways.

As for the Ami and Minori moment: talk about confusing. I'm more interested in what caused Ami to grab the wallet than anything (Does she know what picture is underneath it?) but hopefully that won't take too long to explain in future episodes.

It's so Taiga to send a letter of apology to Kanou that reads, "Idiot", though.
Well,Talking between Ami and Minori in this episode is very important.
You have to be careful every word of Ami.

Last edited by heppu; 2009-01-24 at 11:53. Reason: Spoilers about future events must not be posted in this thread.
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Old 2009-01-24, 12:07   Link #162
physics223
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I realized that the word Taiga sent, while a reflection of her violence and irateness, was also the perfect apology to Sumire, because she finally realized and spoke about her feelings - she finally was also an idiot. Thanks, guys.
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Old 2009-01-24, 12:11   Link #163
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Old 2009-01-24, 13:14   Link #164
Sinfully Naomi
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Question:

I couldn't really tell because of the lighting, but was Ami smiling after asking Minori "Are your feelings of guilt gone?"
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Old 2009-01-24, 13:48   Link #165
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No she wasn't.
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Old 2009-01-24, 14:04   Link #166
physics223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfully Naomi View Post
Question:

I couldn't really tell because of the lighting, but was Ami smiling after asking Minori "Are your feelings of guilt gone?"
I believe she was grimacing in disgust. Also, people, what do you think about my assumptions in this post? Is my belief of a transcendent friendship a wild theory, or one that will be supported later on as the series progresses?

(Also, please don't spoil - I'm not a novel reader. Do leave a comment! )
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Old 2009-01-24, 14:48   Link #167
Kylaran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinfully Naomi View Post
Question:

I couldn't really tell because of the lighting, but was Ami smiling after asking Minori "Are your feelings of guilt gone?"
While I agree that it was a grimace in a way, I disagree that it necessarily has to only involve Minorin directly.

While, yes, there is a certain amount of significance temporally that Amin makes such a face after making a comment to Minorin, I feel like it's too early to simply say that she feels a certain way about Minorin because of her feelings for Takasu.

I think the face she made was reflecting the whole situation.

Her oldest friend was just dumped by the girl he loves.

As much as she hates Taiga sometimes, she's in agony over the events that unfolded.

And yet the relationships between the five of them, particularly between Minorin and Takasu, are going to change dramatically, caused by an impetus that's more that plenty unpleasant.
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Old 2009-01-24, 17:27   Link #168
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She's gritting her teeth, it wasn't a smile.
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Old 2009-01-24, 17:43   Link #169
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My interpretation of that, is Minorin was hesitating over Ryuji because she thought Taiga liked him. Finding out that Taiga liked Kitamura instead, Ami probed at that weakness, asking if her guilt in liking the boy that Taiga likes is gone. Since Taiga obviously likes Kitamura. And Ami stopping those other girls from seeing and realizing that the second picture must be one of Taiga and Ryuji, seems to emphasize that Ami is pushing Minorin towards Ryuji, which seems strange because my impression of her is, that she kind of likes him too. Maybe thats why she is grimacing there. Either that, or because she realizes she is about to start a conflict between Taiga and Minorin over Ryuji.

Of course thats just my interpretation of it. I suspect we'll find out more in the next episode or 2.
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Old 2009-01-24, 18:08   Link #170
Sinfully Naomi
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Thank you. I couldn't tell because the screen was so small, and because of the lighting. But thank you for the enlarged picture.

And Molenir. I think that that is actually a pretty good theory. Now that I understand that it was a disgusted mood, and not some kind of sick, twisted, evil smile or something; it makes a lot of sense to me. It would be odd for Ami to be pushing Minori toards Ryuji. Unless maybe your theory was correct, or maybe she wants to give Minori some kind of false hope, and steal Ryuji away at the last moment, to hurt her. Reason being that, she may hate Minori for liking someone that she likes..... Just my thoughts on it.
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Old 2009-01-24, 18:38   Link #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223 View Post
I believe she was grimacing in disgust. Also, people, what do you think about my assumptions in this post? Is my belief of a transcendent friendship a wild theory, or one that will be supported later on as the series progresses?

(Also, please don't spoil - I'm not a novel reader. Do leave a comment! )
I will post this on your site.

I don't know what you mean by transcendent friendship. How do you define a transcendent friendship in order to class it as such? I don't have a set of parameters so the usage seems a bit contrived to say the least. Unfortunately it's aiming for the poetic without meaning.

I'll target a few limiting aspects as well to your post. You say,
Quote:
Sumire realized her love for Kitamura, with Taiga’s violent help;
I don't think that's the case. I don't think that Sumire realized her feelings for Kitamura. She always had said feelings and everything she did, as she admitted was to protect him (Kitamura) from her feelings and the decisions he would make in regards to her decision. She felt that his devotion and love for her is so strong he would deny himself. As though he would lose himself in her and unfortunately, on some level she was right. It was when she made a marked and movement of separation by not declaring her feelings but letting him know that she would be leaving the country that we saw a violent reaction on his part. Imagine what could have happened if she accepted his feelings and then she told him. Everything she feared would most likely would have happened. So it's not realization. It's forced public admission which Taiga did. This was why Taiga, Ryuuji, and Kitamura was so moved by her statement and what she did to herself. Kitamura also realized that...she denied even her own needs, her self and her love and sacrificed all that to protect him. I just think the usage of realization is limiting her character and the miniscule peek into the depth of her character.

Then comes this:
Quote:
it is more of a transcendent story of camaraderie
I don't know if I'd claim it's a transcendent story of camaraderie. The entire show from the first episode was one of camaraderie. A poster on another forum I'm on said there has been nothing "done" in regards to romance. And s/he's right. The focus has been on relationship building if nothing else and the slight romantic quandaries that arise from close relationships and neglected people. If you mean by transcendent that the story's primary focus is on friendship...then I would say yes but this is not something blind or currently happening. It's always been the focus. If you're meaning it as an exceptional story that surpasses other stories of friendship ---- I'd have to say, as I've not seen much but I think you might be right. It's strength is in it's storytelling and relationship building. It has created a strong friendship base if nothing else. So I guess my main fix is the usage of transcendent.

Question, is your usage of bold terms to signify all the elements of this "transcendent" friendship?

In other words...The relationship transcends the normal bounds of friendship and closer resembles blank....You're not defining what type of friendship that their relationships is transcending to. What parameters does it meet if not friendship or what aspect of friendship if it does....I think in order for me to give you a proper analysis I need a tighter definition, although I tried my best above.

As for a wild theory I can't say. I figured the aspect of friendship was fundamental in the entire show.

Let's look at this through characters.

1. Ryuuji: A guy with a limited number of friends because people made prejudgements about his face so they never bothered to get to know him. He had no friends except for Kitamura

2. Taiga: A girl made out to have a severe Napoleonic syndrome and had to force herself to appear stronger and tougher than most because people didn't understand her and probably would see her as weak. She keeps up a front, ie Tsundere character, when in reality she's a softy who is loyal to her friends and is sensitive to people with a neglectful family. She also had no friends except Minorin.

3. Ami: Another character judged solely on her appearance like the first two and also who unfortunately has to put up a two-faced role in order to match what people want of her when she's nothing like that. She had no friends but Kitamura.

4. Kitamura: A guy who devoted his life to the school council or school activities in order to heal a broken heart. He had no real friends besides Ryuuji and maybe Ami and the President who was older than him. So for most of his life his close friend was really Ryuuji. Remember Ami had moved away.

5. Minorin who seems to have good relationships but only a real friendship with one person, Taiga.

Basically they bonded it seemed because there were binding ties and they were seeking something from everyone else. Ami was introduced through Kitamura and was using him to escape her world. Added to that Ryuuji gave her the reasons to say, inadvertently. Taiga found someone she was close with and provided that close and UNDERSTANDING family and friendship unit she was lacking. This was the same for Ryuuji. Between all of them it is Ryuuji who understands Taiga the best and vice versa. Kitamura joined in because it was his friends that lessened his own burdens in life or his need to refocus his energies---because they were his outlet. This was seen at the beach house episode when Ami specifically asked him why he dumped his school activities to go with them. Minorin<---unfortunately is the least developed character for me to really see why she needs them. I know from episode 4 (the ep where she and Ryuuji were stuck in the shed) or so she does hide herself behind a mask in order to protect herself. Maybe it's through them she can put the mask away and Ami has the same response as well.

So is their bonding fundamental and goes beyond the normal frame of friendship? Define for me the normal framework of a strong friendship and maybe I'll be sure.
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Old 2009-01-24, 20:57   Link #172
Kinku
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I dont know falling in love with your friend either end up bad or good....speically if your really good friends ( like Ryuuji and Tiaga ) its a gamble if u decide to confess to your friend you like he/her cause afterwards your friendship be totally different
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Old 2009-01-24, 23:11   Link #173
physics223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vaberella View Post
I will post this on your site.

I don't know what you mean by transcendent friendship. How do you define a transcendent friendship in order to class it as such? I don't have a set of parameters so the usage seems a bit contrived to say the least. Unfortunately it's aiming for the poetic without meaning.

I'll target a few limiting aspects as well to your post. You say,

I don't think that's the case. I don't think that Sumire realized her feelings for Kitamura. She always had said feelings and everything she did, as she admitted was to protect him (Kitamura) from her feelings and the decisions he would make in regards to her decision. She felt that his devotion and love for her is so strong he would deny himself. As though he would lose himself in her and unfortunately, on some level she was right. It was when she made a marked and movement of separation by not declaring her feelings but letting him know that she would be leaving the country that we saw a violent reaction on his part. Imagine what could have happened if she accepted his feelings and then she told him. Everything she feared would most likely would have happened. So it's not realization. It's forced public admission which Taiga did. This was why Taiga, Ryuuji, and Kitamura was so moved by her statement and what she did to herself. Kitamura also realized that...she denied even her own needs, her self and her love and sacrificed all that to protect him. I just think the usage of realization is limiting her character and the miniscule peek into the depth of her character.

Then comes this:

I don't know if I'd claim it's a transcendent story of camaraderie. The entire show from the first episode was one of camaraderie. A poster on another forum I'm on said there has been nothing "done" in regards to romance. And s/he's right. The focus has been on relationship building if nothing else and the slight romantic quandaries that arise from close relationships and neglected people. If you mean by transcendent that the story's primary focus is on friendship...then I would say yes but this is not something blind or currently happening. It's always been the focus. If you're meaning it as an exceptional story that surpasses other stories of friendship ---- I'd have to say, as I've not seen much but I think you might be right. It's strength is in it's storytelling and relationship building. It has created a strong friendship base if nothing else. So I guess my main fix is the usage of transcendent.

Question, is your usage of bold terms to signify all the elements of this "transcendent" friendship?

In other words...The relationship transcends the normal bounds of friendship and closer resembles blank....You're not defining what type of friendship that their relationships is transcending to. What parameters does it meet if not friendship or what aspect of friendship if it does....I think in order for me to give you a proper analysis I need a tighter definition, although I tried my best above.

As for a wild theory I can't say. I figured the aspect of friendship was fundamental in the entire show.

Let's look at this through characters.

1. Ryuuji: A guy with a limited number of friends because people made prejudgements about his face so they never bothered to get to know him. He had no friends except for Kitamura

2. Taiga: A girl made out to have a severe Napoleonic syndrome and had to force herself to appear stronger and tougher than most because people didn't understand her and probably would see her as weak. She keeps up a front, ie Tsundere character, when in reality she's a softy who is loyal to her friends and is sensitive to people with a neglectful family. She also had no friends except Minorin.

3. Ami: Another character judged solely on her appearance like the first two and also who unfortunately has to put up a two-faced role in order to match what people want of her when she's nothing like that. She had no friends but Kitamura.

4. Kitamura: A guy who devoted his life to the school council or school activities in order to heal a broken heart. He had no real friends besides Ryuuji and maybe Ami and the President who was older than him. So for most of his life his close friend was really Ryuuji. Remember Ami had moved away.

5. Minorin who seems to have good relationships but only a real friendship with one person, Taiga.

Basically they bonded it seemed because there were binding ties and they were seeking something from everyone else. Ami was introduced through Kitamura and was using him to escape her world. Added to that Ryuuji gave her the reasons to say, inadvertently. Taiga found someone she was close with and provided that close and UNDERSTANDING family and friendship unit she was lacking. This was the same for Ryuuji. Between all of them it is Ryuuji who understands Taiga the best and vice versa. Kitamura joined in because it was his friends that lessened his own burdens in life or his need to refocus his energies---because they were his outlet. This was seen at the beach house episode when Ami specifically asked him why he dumped his school activities to go with them. Minorin<---unfortunately is the least developed character for me to really see why she needs them. I know from episode 4 (the ep where she and Ryuuji were stuck in the shed) or so she does hide herself behind a mask in order to protect herself. Maybe it's through them she can put the mask away and Ami has the same response as well.

So is their bonding fundamental and goes beyond the normal frame of friendship? Define for me the normal framework of a strong friendship and maybe I'll be sure.
I replied to you there. Thank you for finally taking me on.

I appreciate the time and effort spent in typing up that intelligent response. Thanks, once again.
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Old 2009-01-24, 23:49   Link #174
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i'm pretty sure Sumire always knew that Kitamura liked her, but she was putting her feelings on hold for his sake. she said something along the lines of "if i responded to his feelings he would give up everything to be with me." or she would give up her dreams to be with him. for the sake of both of them, she had to reject his feelings. which makes her a stronger character than Taiga takes her for. Taiga assumes she's running away from his feelings, but i think she's getting them loud and clear and has the will power to stand up against the urge.

and it makes me sad at the inevitableness of the slow phaseout of Ami.. such a better character than Minorin.

Last edited by germanturkey; 2009-01-25 at 02:42.
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Old 2009-01-25, 03:42   Link #175
physics223
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@vaberella

Thank you once more for your response. Also, thanks for the compliment.

@germanturkey

I feel your pain. There's always one saying I refer to at times like this, and that saying is 'C'est la vie.'
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Old 2009-01-25, 04:26   Link #176
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Originally Posted by germanturkey View Post
i'm pretty sure Sumire always knew that Kitamura liked her, but she was putting her feelings on hold for his sake. she said something along the lines of "if i responded to his feelings he would give up everything to be with me." or she would give up her dreams to be with him. for the sake of both of them, she had to reject his feelings. which makes her a stronger character than Taiga takes her for. Taiga assumes she's running away from his feelings, but i think she's getting them loud and clear and has the will power to stand up against the urge.
This just about sums up how Sumire feels to Kitamura. She likes him just as much as he likes her, but doesn't show it and gives him the impression otherwise, so that she doesn't ruin his future. IMHO, she's much more suited for Kitamura than Taiga can ever be; someone who isn't an "idiot", will do a lot of good to that straightforward guy.
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Old 2009-01-25, 04:52   Link #177
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Despite my continuing to be annoyed by Taiga, I was kept mildly interested by other things, particularly keeping hope that Ami and the president would get further development. Myself attracted to strong composed characters, I've always liked Sumire. This episode was great, with just the right amount of drama and violence. And it showed how much stronger and composed Sumire had been. She has become my favorite character, even surpassing Ami. I loved her strange confession. It was a powerful moment, a counterpoint to Taiga's idiocy. Her kendo's pretty tight too.

I also like the contrast between their loves. Taiga's is possessive, and desires to win over Yusaku, even going so far as to try and beat up the object of his affection w/out even so much as his consent to do so (which she probably wouldn't get). That will never be something to be compared to that of Kano, who considered first the reality of their very different futures and acted in the best way she knew how in order to preserve them. That is a character who has got her priorities in order. It's no wonder Yusaku fell in love with her. Heck, I'm in love with her. Hopefully, Taiga has learned a valuable lesson, and the baka post card is really code for "Thanks for helping me sort out the kind of person I ought to be for Yusaku".

Last edited by khryoleoz; 2009-01-25 at 05:14.
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Old 2009-01-25, 05:13   Link #178
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... *tear trickles down her cheek* ...

Where The Hell are all these tears coming from!!?! I swear ive cried all my bodily fluid out by now... *thirstyyyyy~*

...

IT WAS BREATH-TAKING! I am... I felt... Such empathy with their situation, especially Kitamura.

It's scary, and, I'm kind of annoyed he was the first character in this series to seriously jerk some tears out of me. T,T - But then again he is becoming more and more of an awesome character, and... what are you people complaining about for MORE Ami... *sigh*

Only 8 more episodes? I can sort of see how it's all going to wrap up now. ^0^

Ahhh- Happy Endings to shine out and dry up the tears... *well, I don't know what kind of ending it will be... 0.o actually)-
Spoiler for The Awesome Bonds of Friendship - <3:
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Old 2009-01-25, 06:20   Link #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arriana-corr View Post
... *tear trickles down her cheek* ...

Where The Hell are all these tears coming from!!?! I swear ive cried all my bodily fluid out by now... *thirstyyyyy~*

...

IT WAS BREATH-TAKING! I am... I felt... Such empathy with their situation, especially Kitamura.

It's scary, and, I'm kind of annoyed he was the first character in this series to seriously jerk some tears out of me. T,T - But then again he is becoming more and more of an awesome character, and... what are you people complaining about for MORE Ami... *sigh*

Only 8 more episodes? I can sort of see how it's all going to wrap up now. ^0^

Ahhh- Happy Endings to shine out and dry up the tears... *well, I don't know what kind of ending it will be... 0.o actually)-
Spoiler for The Awesome Bonds of Friendship - <3:
what the...

only 8 eps lift till the end i wonder is 8 eps i enough to decide or it will be a open ended series?? ( to make the viewer read the novel )
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Old 2009-01-25, 06:28   Link #180
Waven
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Originally Posted by k'2 View Post
what the...

only 8 eps lift till the end i wonder is 8 eps i enough to decide or it will be a open ended series?? ( to make the viewer read the novel )
Depending on whether it's true the upcoming 1 or 2 volumes of the novel are the last we either get a JC made wrap-up or an OVA thrown at us afterwards (that sounds a little negative right? ) i suppose.
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