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View Poll Results: Toradora! - Episode 16 Rating
Perfect 10 108 61.02%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 47 26.55%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 10 5.65%
7 out of 10 : Good 8 4.52%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 1.69%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.56%
Voters: 177. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-01-25, 07:25   Link #181
Darknemo2000
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vaberella, for me if the show focuses on the relationship itself (transcendence of it) then it should be that way, without sudden shift of focus to romance which
Spoiler for which:


If the author doesn't plan to work upon building the romance then the show should not switch the focus to it as well and stay on what it does best - transcendent relationship of characters, instead of forcing a love drama as the 16 episodes were not really about romance at all, I do not think that forcing a sudden love eruption just to create a better climax is all that great idea.
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Old 2009-01-25, 09:48   Link #182
NoOneKnowS
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This is the best slice of life/comedy/romane EVARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. Cut Kitamura some slack. At least his human enough to act like a dick cause of a girl. That happens everytime/and everywhere (and their just high school kids). I mean all the characters here aren't black and white. They all have flaws yet are still so lovable. No series have ever had characters like these.
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Old 2009-01-25, 10:00   Link #183
Led_Zeppelin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k'2 View Post
Spoiler:
It could be possible, that JC Staff and the author of the novel, have some agreement, and IF (and only if) the novel series will be finish in the next book (the 10th) the author could gave a general lineaments of how the original story will end, and that way jc sftaff could make his finish of the series...

Or they could leave an open ended series...

VIVA ZEPPELIN!!!!
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Old 2009-01-25, 11:20   Link #184
typhonsentra
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Roan told me the last author note for the second Spin-Off says volume 10 is the "Climax".
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Old 2009-01-25, 12:50   Link #185
wistfulloner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led_Zeppelin View Post
Or they could leave an open ended series...
No ambiguity in my Toradora ending, please. Give a sound conclusion to the series, or no conclusion at all; I'll blow a vessel if no one really pairs with anyone at the end.

Unless, of course you were talking about a sequel, then that's a whole different story...
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Old 2009-01-25, 14:43   Link #186
Nochgo
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Wow, I had no clue that Minori liked Kitamura (is that right?). Anyhow, this episode definitely made my weekend. ugh, now I really want to go read the light novels
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Old 2009-01-25, 14:57   Link #187
germanturkey
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Originally Posted by Nochgo View Post
Wow, I had no clue that Minori liked Kitamura (is that right?
speculation says that's wrong. i pretty much have my own conclusion of what's going on, but it might be a little biased because i like Ami and believe that she's above all a good person.
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Old 2009-01-25, 15:36   Link #188
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
instead of forcing a love drama as the 16 episodes were not really about romance at all
What.

Just.

What.
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Old 2009-01-25, 15:43   Link #189
aliasxn
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Meh... I was really looking forward to seeing Taiga's broken hearted expression, so it was a big let down for me when the moment came and they only showed her back... This is probably the main reason why I didn't like this episode. I just hate it when people expose their personal lives like that, it's embarrassing. Lame move from Kitamura, “coercing” her into dating him like that, wtf... Extra points for Sumire though, loved the way she handled the situation. Calm, collected, classy... Vey nice. It's shame we won't be seeing more of her.
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Old 2009-01-25, 16:01   Link #190
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
If the author doesn't plan to work upon building the romance then the show should not switch the focus to it as well and stay on what it does best - transcendent relationship of characters, instead of forcing a love drama as the 16 episodes were not really about romance at all, I do not think that forcing a sudden love eruption just to create a better climax is all that great idea.
What? Is this another "we've been watching two entirely different series" moment? No, I'm not going to exhaustively list all the moments and clues, but I'm a bit sad you're not seeing what I see.
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Old 2009-01-25, 17:05   Link #191
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
What? Is this another "we've been watching two entirely different series" moment? No, I'm not going to exhaustively list all the moments and clues, but I'm a bit sad you're not seeing what I see.
And now watch as he pulls out another of his "everything is subjective, ergo, I'm always right" arguments again.
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Old 2009-01-25, 18:35   Link #192
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"Are your feelings of guilt gone?"

Hmm I thought it is becuz minorin knew about takasu's feelings and yet chooses to ignore it for his and taiga's own good. But yet through the anguish of kitamura, minorin saw that is not the case. Seeing that at least there was a happy ending, she thought she did the right thing till Ami questioned her.
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Old 2009-01-25, 19:17   Link #193
Darknemo2000
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Kaisos Erranon, I never said I am always right. If you cannot read my comments thoroughly then don't read them. I can do without your lame quoting of things I never said.

Vexx, the clues as I said is not from romantic perspective and not shed in a romantic light at all, they are all from the friendly/similar spirits perspective. I am sure that you would use such arguments as in rubbing feet against ones back and so on, but they do not indicate romance - they indicate the closeness that is not necessarily romantic and is not romantic as neither of the act perceivers perceive it as an romantic.

The romantic relationship is not there as it has no romantic perception. When there will be - then the relationship can be called romantic. It is not even confusing relationship for either of them, meaning that it really is what it is - a bond between two similar spirits. But it is not a romance.
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Old 2009-01-25, 19:37   Link #194
germanturkey
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meh, a lot of people are saying that this show is going through "Give Taiga more screentime" Syndrome. which i agree with. There are better characters in this show than her..
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Old 2009-01-25, 19:47   Link #195
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Kaisos Erranon, I never said I am always right. If you cannot read my comments thoroughly then don't read them. I can do without your lame quoting of things I never said.

Vexx, the clues as I said is not from romantic perspective and not shed in a romantic light at all, they are all from the friendly/similar spirits perspective. I am sure that you would use such arguments as in rubbing feet against ones back and so on, but they do not indicate romance - they indicate the closeness that is not necessarily romantic and is not romantic as neither of the act perceivers perceive it as an romantic.

The romantic relationship is not there as it has no romantic perception. When there will be - then the relationship can be called romantic. It is not even confusing relationship for either of them, meaning that it really is what it is - a bond between two similar spirits. But it is not a romance.
Ah well... the specific examples you give exactly fit my definition of "romance" - actually a much truer deeper romance than the simple puppy love and hormone intoxication often portrayed in anime as "romance". The build up here would be to the "epiphany".
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Old 2009-01-25, 20:03   Link #196
Nvenya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Ah well... the specific examples you give exactly fit my definition of "romance" - actually a much truer deeper romance than the simple puppy love and hormone intoxication often portrayed in anime as "romance". The build up here would be to the "epiphany".
I think what you're referring to is companionate love. I'm not quite certain what Darknemo2000 is upset about though. I don't believe that the type of love one is in has to remain the same, nor do I see a problem with it changing suddenly as long as it's believable. Thus friendship can change into companionate love and then into consummate love(romance being a part of this type) like it did in the anime Lovely Complex.

At least I think that's what is being referred to here.
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Old 2009-01-25, 20:25   Link #197
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
The romantic relationship is not there as it has no romantic perception. When there will be - then the relationship can be called romantic. It is not even confusing relationship for either of them, meaning that it really is what it is - a bond between two similar spirits. But it is not a romance.
...That's pretty much what romance is, especially when viewed from a female perspective.

And we all know that the original author is a woman.

I'd personally classify Toradora as shoujo rather than shonen/seinen, even with its male protagonist...

Quote:
Originally Posted by germanturkey View Post
meh, a lot of people are saying that this show is going through "Give Taiga more screentime" Syndrome. which i agree with. There are better characters in this show than her..
And rather unfortunately for your viewpoint, Taiga is a title character and thus is going to draw a lot of the focus anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nvenya View Post
I think what you're referring to is companionate love. I'm not quite certain what Darknemo2000 is upset about though. I don't believe that the type of love one is in has to remain the same, nor do I see a problem with it changing suddenly as long as it's believable. Thus friendship can change into companionate love and then into consummate love(romance being a part of this type) like it did in the anime Lovely Complex.
And that is very probably what is going to happen here.
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Old 2009-01-25, 22:27   Link #198
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oh man, another confession.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manji Midou View Post
hmm....

What did Ami say to Minori at the end?
I think it was "have you lost your feeling of guilt"
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Old 2009-01-26, 02:10   Link #199
Guardian Enzo
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I've been puzzling over what word to use to describe Ami, and I've figured it out - perceptive. Maybe it's because of her dealings with adults through her job, but she's incredibly perceptive about the hidden meanings in situations - and about people's hidden weaknesses. Because she's more mature than her classmates but also very childlike and selfish at times, she uses her perceptiveness as a weapon. She's certainly a girl of many contradictions.
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Old 2009-01-26, 02:21   Link #200
Mughi
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Thumbs up

A really enjoyable episode and typical for this series. A little comedy, a little drama, and some action for good measure.

I really liked the "messages" in this eps. Particularly Sumire's point that even if you have one set of reasons for setting onto a journey, the reasons change during the journey. Deciding not to step forward because your original goal seems lost is wrong. There ultimately is more at stake if you look at it. It is worthwhile continuing and almost your duty once you have taken that first step.

I enjoyed Kitamura's guts to profess his love to Sumire on stage. She was just as brave not to cave in and instead make a statement to support "such an interesting guy" to the class. Sure it was a kind of cop out to avoid his question, but if most teenagers were in the situation, they would run and whine about how embarrassing that was. Turns out she wasn't just a cold and calculating tyrant as depicted earlier on, but a deep and caring person, helping Kitamura save face while hiding behind her own mask as we were soon to so dramatically see...

Taiga's insistence that Sumire take responsibility for emotionally injuring Kitamura was amazing. She loves him deeply enough to push the one he loves back toward him, even if it hurts her. Not only was she standing up to protect someone she cared for, she was making the statement that if she were going to lose, she should lose to someone who was worth losing to. Taiga has to move forward on her journey too. The ensuing fight was truly an epic anime moment. They didn't play it for super-deformed comedy that most shows would. They put in all of the blood, sweat and bruises that standing up for what you believe in gives you back. Yes, all of you pacifists and doubters out there, there are girls who will punch and pull hair over a guy, every bit as much as there are guys who will literally kill another man for similar reasons over a girl. I've seen it in suburban California, why not in Japan.

Sumire's counter to Taiga about supporting Kitamura by hiding her feelings so he wouldn't destroy his life by following her was a smart note too. She showed that she too loved him in return, but was sacrificing her own feelings for the greater good of both Kitamura's future as well as the school's potential loss of a good and caring leader.

Kitamura's acknowledgment that her message and reasons for loving and still holding back from him aren't going to go wasted was dramatic. He clearly (to me anyway) telegraphed that he accepted what care and love she might hold for him in the way she felt able, and he had learned his lesson to move forward despite the frustrations and pain that may lie ahead, because it is all in service of a greater future for them all.

Taiga's reaction was all pain. Stunning pain. So well illustrated by the animators. You could see the gears turning in her head realizing that she's both succeeded and failed in one brilliant moment. She brought the two together in her place and had lost all in one. To me that was also what Ami's comment to Minori, and her subsequent grimace and were all about. She, like Taiga, was pushing together two who love each other, even at risk of her own pain and loss. I could be wrong on that last one, but it was presented as such. A perfect bold underline of what had just happened.

A fascinating turn of events. If people think that this arc was a weak and pointless one, that's sad. In Taiga's, or anyone's life, going through these turns are such that lives and futures are altered inextricably. Paths diverge while bonds are strengthened in new ways not before seen.

I felt these were good lessons for the audience, because ultimately that's why they occur. It always amazes me how the real messages get lost on so many viewers. "So and so wouldn't really say that!" or, "Why would the writers put in something that just doesn't make sense?" Characters don't do and say these things for themselves, or to be more real within their world, but instead in service of the audience. They are speaking to US and telling us, DON'T make these mistakes without really looking at them from all sides and considering your own actions carefully. This is just a cartoon show. Your own life is REALITY. If we can put events and situations into high relief for you to not miss them in YOUR life, then maybe you will not suffer as these characters do...

Great series!

Last edited by Mughi; 2009-01-26 at 02:38.
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