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Old 2009-01-24, 21:51   Link #921
Matrim
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Spoiler for reply to Exilon:


More rambling tomorrow, I am too sleepy now.
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Old 2009-01-24, 22:59   Link #922
Nadeor
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Yeah I noticed about Beatrice's TIPS as well
What we came up as a solution would be that Beatrice faked the 'Witches-are-afraid-of-bullets' thing
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Umineko no Naku Koro ni Ep1: Finished
Umineko no Naku Koro ni Ep2: Finished
Umineko no Naku Koro ni Ep3: Finished
Umineko no Naku Koro ni Ep4: Finished

Umineko no Naku Koro ni EP5: ...??

Accumulating 07th point -.-
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Old 2009-01-24, 23:08   Link #923
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I actually buy a lot of the meta-world "rules" at face value, although they obviously don't apply from an anti-fantasy perspective. Maybe this is a poor practice on my part... however, in this particular case, I think there's a much stronger argument for faking a resistance than faking a weakness, because... well, why would you do the latter?

My reasoning for accepting the meta-world rules given is perhaps a little silly, but think of it like this: a LOT of Ep. 3 was spent in the meta-world, and if the audience doesn't potentially "learn" something from part of the game, that part is effectively useless, which would make a huge chunk of Ep. 3 a complete red herring.

I think the main point of Ep. 3 (although I don't doubt there are scraps of AF-world info we can glean from it) is that we gain knowledge of the meta-world parameters, for whatever reason. It's possible to me that the final solution WILL involve magic, but that this will not be central to the murders; otherwise, why tell us so much about the meta-world? It's also possible that the parameters of the meta-world are some kind of metaphor for how the AF-world culprit operates (this view is suggested in Ep. 1).
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Old 2009-01-26, 10:21   Link #924
Matrim
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Spoiler for ep.3, musings about murder weapons and Nanjo's opninion on them:


Quote:
however, in this particular case, I think there's a much stronger argument for faking a resistance than faking a weakness, because... well, why would you do the latter?
I agree.

Quote:
It's possible to me that the final solution WILL involve magic, but that this will not be central to the murders; otherwise, why tell us so much about the meta-world? It's also possible that the parameters of the meta-world are some kind of metaphor for how the AF-world culprit operates (this view is suggested in Ep. 1).
Or it could be a combination of the two - Beato appearing and talking to people certainly qualifies as a sort of magic if we assume she is not just a 19th person but can also visit the meta world, turn back time, etc. But in the same all the stakes, goatheads, siestas and so on could time be mere objects, personified in the version presented from Beato to Battler.
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Old 2009-01-26, 10:30   Link #925
Exilon
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I agree with what's said above :P

Spoiler for nanjo:


Quote:
But in the same all the stakes, goatheads, siestas and so on could time be mere objects, personified in the version presented from Beato to Battler.
I strongly believe this, for many reasons; obviously for their names (siesta's names are incredibly obvious as they are named after guns, stakes being real stakes), which also might explain why Beato (at least for episode 2), never attacks herself but summons this "furniture" (= weapons.).
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Old 2009-01-26, 10:47   Link #926
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From the evil overlord list

Quote:
Originally Posted by 220
# Whatever my one vulnerability is, I will fake a different one. For example, ordering all mirrors removed from the palace, screaming and flinching whenever someone accidentally holds up a mirror, etc. In the climax when the hero whips out a mirror and thrusts it at my face, my reaction will be "Hmm...I think I need a shave."
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Old 2009-01-26, 10:51   Link #927
Exilon
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And that could actually explain some events in EP2 and EP3.
The human culprit is pretending to be beatrice, so it even pretends "fake" weaknesses. Does it make sense?

..I laughed a little at that, though.
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Old 2009-01-26, 11:27   Link #928
bigemperor
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I have a question that is killing me

Beato is the endless witch but when eva resolve the epitaph se became the endless witch and beato become a normal witch, is this real or all was part of beato performance?
Also in the future eva give his title of endless witch to ange that’s why in the golden land she resist all the magic that was throw to her but BEATO CONTINUE TO BE THE ENDLESS WITCH?

I am pretty confused about these XD
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Old 2009-01-26, 12:40   Link #929
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I get the impression that you have to take that Beato and meta-Beato as slightly separate, kind of like how Battler dies every game but is still there arguing in the meta world.

R-Beato (Rokkenjima, i.e., in-game) loses her title and powers, but meta-Beato exists outside the timeline. My guess is that a witch can be created within the timeline and, using her powers, can leave it; however, every time the game starts, a new R-Beato is "generated", like everyone else in the game. So you can have a succession of R-Beato -> Eva -> Ange within the timeline, and Ange then goes back in time with her powers.

It's kind of the same question as how Virgilia died, but continues to exist outside the game. Beato loses her powers within the game, but continues to be a witch outside it.

You can also see a disparity between meta-Beato and R-Beato in their histories; the former was apparently made into a witch by Lambda, while the latter learned her abilities from Virgilia.

To put it another way, it seems like the connection between Rika and Bern that existed in Higurashi in that it isn't entirely direct.
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Old 2009-01-26, 12:47   Link #930
Klashikari
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That is not possible. the in-game beato does interact with both in-game and metaworld characters.
Episode 3 shows pretty well that Beato is jumping back and forth from both worlds.

Rather, there is a "save state" in each chessboard. That will dictate the current "status" of X or Y character, while the Meta world isn't affected.
Virgilia's death but yet "alive" status was hinted to be Beato's own doing though she didn't expect that she could get back from the meta world into the chessboard. her range of action was also limited.
As for Ange, since she was approved from the future, she became a witch, hence she is not bound by the rules of a supposed timeline, since the Metaworld isn't bound to "a chessboard", therefore, several endless witches can exist at the same given time, provided they don't belong to the same chessboard. (That is extremely similar to the "Throne of Heroes" of Fate/Stay Night).

And no, the fact Lambda was required for Beato's powers don't contradict with the fact she succeeded from Virgilia.
In order to be a witch, one needs to succeed in a tribe, but ALSO got the approval from another witch tribe.
These are not exclusive to a specific "world".
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Old 2009-01-26, 16:39   Link #931
Avisch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exilon View Post
I agree with what's said above :P

Spoiler for nanjo:

Spoiler for reply:
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Old 2009-01-26, 16:47   Link #932
Exilon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avisch View Post
Spoiler for reply:
...I believe that works both ways. Many things I learned on EP2 worked for EP1 and many guesses that were impossible for EP1 worked on EP2.
>
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Old 2009-01-26, 16:52   Link #933
k//eternal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
That is not possible. the in-game beato does interact with both in-game and metaworld characters.
Episode 3 shows pretty well that Beato is jumping back and forth from both worlds.
And her status within the game is dictated by what's happened to her there. Maybe I explained my thought badly.

I think I like the way you put it better, although it's kind of the same thing.
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Old 2009-01-27, 05:17   Link #934
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I don't know which was more grueling, the second to last chapter, or this thread... Haha, I kid, I kid.

Main reason I went through the entire thread, was to see if anyone shared some of my (IMO big) observations:

Spoiler for ep3:
Can't wait for Ep. 4 to utterly crush the value of all the above . As our favorite defense attorney in training likes to say: "Ah, it's all useless..."
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Old 2009-01-27, 07:59   Link #935
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I have a random question. How come Ronove is spelled as ロノェ, and Eva-Beatrice is spelled as エァ-ベアトリーチェ、the 'v' sound in both of their names sounds the same in English as far as I can tell. Which is also confusing as non-witch Eva is spelled えば, referring to the ba/va and not the katakana/hiragana.
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Old 2009-01-27, 08:16   Link #936
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Well you can't have a 'va' in hiragana as that it doesn't exist there, furthermore there are no Japanese words which use it. Conversely in Katakana you would be able to give it it's 'correct' writing by using a proper kana v.

More so, in katakana's Ronove's case instead of it giving a v sound, a u + small vocal without the double points gives a 'w' sound. So it's more like Ronowe (A tie in for Genji Ronoue, I'd suppose)

Last edited by Proto; 2009-01-27 at 08:29.
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Old 2009-01-27, 15:09   Link #937
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Thanks, that's interesting to know. =O
I'm not criticising, but now I'm wondering why they didn't spell it as Ronowe in the translation patch then. >.<
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Old 2009-01-27, 15:14   Link #938
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This is why.
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Old 2009-01-27, 15:15   Link #939
Proto
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Ronove, as it is is the name of a marchis of hell according to Christian demonology. Curiosly enough another official name for him is Ronwe

PS: I claim offside play from chronotrig
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Old 2009-01-27, 15:16   Link #940
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That is because Ronove is the spelling of the said demon. Ryukishi didn't invent that word at all, it is from the lessen key of Salomon.
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