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Old 2009-01-28, 05:31   Link #18081
SonOfHeaven
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Well, Kallen did want to die with Lelouch back during turn 19 and arguably turn 22 as well(Chiba stating the BK will gun her down if Kallen is under Lelouch's geass by Kallen herself, I thought it was already pretty much cleared up between Lelouch and Kallen at turn 2. Don't know why Kallen would think she's under his geass at this point since she did walk away from him at turn 19).

Don't think the poem meant she wanted to be Suzaku at ZR. More like what Nunnally said during turn 25. She didn't want to lose him.

The poem did show Kallen didn't want to live a normal life when her brother died(I'm guessing her brother would have wanted her to live a normal life). So I'm not really surprised she would have wanted to have a choice to follow Lelouch even if Lelouch didn't want that.

Lelouch did become the most important person to Kallen since turns 19 and 22 really showed that. Kallen wasn't even thinking about her mother or anyone else.

I don't think this helps though your take on Kallen though .
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Old 2009-01-28, 06:00   Link #18082
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Most important person, I can understand.
More important that everything she's been fighting for (also under Zero's command), well, I can't ^^;

Ok, ZR was for greater good, but from the way she stated that in the poem, it sounds more like she would have followed him unconditionately.
And yes, Lelouch is enough of an ass to always decide what's better for the others without asking them, but this is nothing new XD

That line about 'shot me if you suspect I'm under Geass', I've always had difficulties to make it fit into the plot, too. I think it was there to show that Kallen absolutely wanted to meet Lelouch face to face and was ready to risk her life for that, but, at the same time, that she didn't want to compromise her army and her people because of this need of her to get her answer from him.
But you are right, she should know that she has been geassed already, but maybe she doesn't know that Lelouch's Geass can be used only once. Or, more probably, the writers forget that!
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Old 2009-01-28, 06:14   Link #18083
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The writers forgot a lot of things.

About integrative "dramas" connected with manga chapter 25 (not the OAV), looking the request I must build 4-5 again, these the events:

Chronological order:

1)A Cornelia's life episode, when she start to be loving for Nonette children.
2)A terrified Lelouch ask to kallen if she can sleep together with him (first stage of their relationship).
3)Kallen ask to Lelouch if finally she can aid and comfort him. Their first time (second stage of their relationship)
4)Kallen giving birth the two gemini.
5)Rivalz offer himself for to protect Nina and give to her a new life.

So, what make before?
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Old 2009-01-28, 06:24   Link #18084
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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
Most important person, I can understand.
More important that everything she's been fighting for (also under Zero's command), well, I can't ^^;

Ok, ZR was for greater good, but from the way she stated that in the poem, it sounds more like she would have followed him unconditionately.
And yes, Lelouch is enough of an ass to always decide what's better for the others without asking them, but this is nothing new XD

That line about 'shot me if you suspect I'm under Geass', I've always had difficulties to make it fit into the plot, too. I think it was there to show that Kallen absolutely wanted to meet Lelouch face to face and was ready to risk her life for that, but, at the same time, that she didn't want to compromise her army and her people because of this need of her to get her answer from him.
But you are right, she should know that she has been geassed already, but maybe she doesn't know that Lelouch's Geass can be used only once. Or, more probably, the writers forget that!
dont forget that ZERO_R is (ultimatly) for a greater good
had lelouch told kallen what he was actually trying to achive in the end
i dont think there would be a problem for her to join him
she ended up opposing him becouse she DIDNT know what the end goal was
and once she figured it out she was trying to stop it becouse she knew what happens next (lelouch's death)

@Bonzo
#2- for the sheer comedy of the thing ;P
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Old 2009-01-28, 07:01   Link #18085
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@Levy

I just think Kallen is someone who places other people, friends and family more important than her own life/happiest. Zero was the one who could accomplish her brother's dream and we know how important that was to Kallen. Almost nothing else mattered to her except of course her mother. Its just that when Kallen fell in love with Lelouch, she really had fallen for him very hard.

Wanting to know what she meant to him was so important that she had literally forgotten about her mother(hate to repeat myself but that's a big deal considering how important Kallen's family is to her). End of the day, her love for Lelouch is so strong that she wanted to be with him in life or in death. Since Lelouch wanted her to live, she's going to. Its just that her character song makes it seem that she is waiting for him and only him .
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Old 2009-01-28, 07:13   Link #18086
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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
Most important person, I can understand.
More important that everything she's been fighting for (also under Zero's command), well, I can't ^^;

Ok, ZR was for greater good, but from the way she stated that in the poem, it sounds more like she would have followed him unconditionately.
And yes, Lelouch is enough of an ass to always decide what's better for the others without asking them, but this is nothing new XD

That line about 'shot me if you suspect I'm under Geass', I've always had difficulties to make it fit into the plot, too. I think it was there to show that Kallen absolutely wanted to meet Lelouch face to face and was ready to risk her life for that, but, at the same time, that she didn't want to compromise her army and her people because of this need of her to get her answer from him.
But you are right, she should know that she has been geassed already, but maybe she doesn't know that Lelouch's Geass can be used only once. Or, more probably, the writers forget that!

For me when I read the poem it was quite clear. Her brother was everything that mattered to her, and when he died, Kallen choose to fight until the end, to finally die. Kallen was resigned to fight until the death; She didn't thought about living, because of her brother's death, she lost this will to live a normal and happy life.

The thing which is needed to be saw there is in my pov, the start of the poem where Kallen said she made her move, but she was convinced nothing would come of that. Then after her brother's death, she choose to continue to fight to finally die.
So in both case, Kallen seemingly never believed in any victory; She was convinced all of this would lead to nothing, then finally to her death.

Why did Lelouch become more important that everything ? Because he changed that. You can more easily understand why Kallen was so admirative of Zero in S1, that's simply because he gave her hope, a hope she didn't have previously.
Finally with Zero, she started to believe in victory; Thus turn 9, where she is telling her wish, which is even more of a promise, to live in a normal world with her mother.

For a girl who was resigned to die and who was pretty much pessimist about all of this, you can basically say that Zero gave her a new life.
And Zero is Lelouch. And finally all of this gave her a crush on her commander, before the whole R2 conflit and the romance devellopment between them.

Kallen said this in her poem too, she was ready to come, crushing his enemy, and finally she didn't realize that more than the cause for what she was fighting, she held devotion only to him. She never believed in her dreams and Lelouch gave her all of that, hope, victories, power...and finally he achieved all of this by forcing her to see the culmination of all of these while living, even though because she was thankful to him, because she loved him, she was ready to be with him until the very end.

So Kallen didn't made a choice between Naoto or Lelouch, between her ideals and Lelouch (there it's clearly not the case. She was ready to kill him, let's nor forget), Lelouch simply gave her everything she didn't have, so add to this feeling and stuff and you get this.

I'm not surprised at all by this, since the poem explained why she put Lelouch above everything else; The only surprise was the very fact Kallen is telling she didn't have any faith in what could come of her moves, and she knew she was going to die = Thus no happy ending for Kallen, just death.
Had this not been explained, I could have been surprised like you, Levy, but this part clear up everything to me.

And makes me love Kallen even more, if that's possible. Didn't knew there was so much angst in her; I thought she was ready to die but believed in what she was doing. Finally no. Pfff what's up with those fanservice PD ? We don't know anytrhing about Naoto's death !

BTW I don't think Kallen would have been fine with ZR. Not easily anyway, or she would have wish to die as well/bear the burden of those sins as well...a lot of possibilities so. More reason for Lelouch to keep her away.
The point is simply that she wanted to stay with him despites everything.
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Old 2009-01-28, 07:33   Link #18087
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OMG Loli the wall text!! weren't you supposed to study?? =P

Quote:
And makes me love Kallen even more, if that's possible. Didn't knew there was so much angst in her; I thought she was ready to die but believed in what she was doing. Finally no.
see, the marvels of various readings? I used to think the same, and this 'no' makes me... I admit it, a bit less sympathetic toward her.
That Zero gave her confidence and the faith in her capabilities, that's for granted, but I used to think that part of this was of Karen for herself. She kinda disagrees: first, that something she was fighting for was 'of Naoto', then it was 'of Zero', and it evolved in being 'of Lelouch'. SonOfHeaven is probably right, this goes with her being very generous at heart. She simply turned out to be 95% passion and 5% idealism, while I've always thought it was more 70% -30%. ^^;

Anyway, I see your POV, and I think that the ending, although bittersweet, give us a picture of her that is not of despair. So let's go on with this...

Quote:
Pfff what's up with those fanservice PD ? We don't know anytrhing about Naoto's death !
yeah..............;_;!

About Zero Requiem, coming at this point, this is a question I'd like to have a direct answer from the staff, because everything points toward 'no' but the poems point toward 'yes', so, it would be interesting to know from them.
I'm still of the opinion that she would not have allowed Lelouch to die that way.
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Old 2009-01-28, 07:48   Link #18088
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levy View Post
Most important person, I can understand.
More important that everything she's been fighting for (also under Zero's command), well, I can't ^^;

Ok, ZR was for greater good, but from the way she stated that in the poem, it sounds more like she would have followed him unconditionately.
And yes, Lelouch is enough of an ass to always decide what's better for the others without asking them, but this is nothing new XD
Kallen strikes me as the character that has no problem to fight for her ideals and die in the battlefield, that is rather obvious. In S1 and early S2 as well {remember, in #2 of R2, she is ready to die "for Zero's sake" {even if it is on the early stages of her knowing he is Lelouch} like she says, after Urabe. //and then comes C.C with the teasing of unfortunate events then |DD;;}

Anyway, i just want to point out, that in that moment of Turn 19, i see it, as Kallen's desperate reaction to protect him and on the flip side, when you think you are going to lose someone, you actually face what they mean to you.
When she had to face potentially losing Lelouch forever, that made her realize exactly what she felt for him.

And Kallen is not that level-headed anyway, most of her actions are triggered from her emotions, nor that the BK were rational at that point, so they leave her no choice. So i see that scene, like Kallen saying "dude, this is it now. At least i will die with the person i love, i just hope that bitch loves me back. Oh well, it does not hurt to ask in a way, does it? Hey, Lelouch blah blah" And there comes Lelouch with his mask, etc etc |DD;;

Last edited by incorrupts; 2009-01-28 at 08:18.
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Old 2009-01-28, 08:25   Link #18089
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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
OMG Loli the wall text!! weren't you supposed to study?? =P



see, the marvels of various readings? I used to think the same, and this 'no' makes me... I admit it, a bit less sympathetic toward her.
That Zero gave her confidence and the faith in her capabilities, that's for granted, but I used to think that part of this was of Karen for herself. She kinda disagrees: first, that something she was fighting for was 'of Naoto', then it was 'of Zero', and it evolved in being 'of Lelouch'. SonOfHeaven is probably right, this goes with her being very generous at heart. She simply turned out to be 95% passion and 5% idealism, while I've always thought it was more 70% -30%. ^^;

Anyway, I see your POV, and I think that the ending, although bittersweet, give us a picture of her that is not of despair. So let's go on with this...
yeah..............;_;!

About Zero Requiem, coming at this point, this is a question I'd like to have a direct answer from the staff, because everything points toward 'no' but the poems point toward 'yes', so, it would be interesting to know from them.
I'm still of the opinion that she would not have allowed Lelouch to die that way.
Tomorrow. Let me enjoy a day off <_<

Well for mle it's quite the contrary. I don't see her lack of faith in the success of her fight as something bad, it's even more impressive to me to see her ready to fight with everything when she thinks, deep inside, that she'll end up by dying, because she hasn't been able to make things change until then.

Had she gave up since the start, it would have been a shame, but she didn't. She continued to fight despites this, she isn't an idealistic and is able to understand the truth of the world, thus a simple group of terrorist isn't really likely to change this truth.

She fought for her brother memories and because she had to. It's even more admirable to do so. I guess they should have gave us more insight about this in the serie though, cause she seemed more faithful in her cause than that. But maybe because since the start of the serie, she met Zero; She is there talking about previous feelings. Everything changed because of Lelouch.

I'm not talking about the ending, but aboyt her chara at the start. I guess a BG turn for Naoto/Kallen would have make those things from the poem crystal clear but since they didn't bother giving us her BG...:/
Thus her chara at ths start is angsty inside. Now her ending is better sure. Even though she is bitter about Lelouch's choice, she is going to live, and that's already a big step for her.

I don't think the poem point toward a Yes. Kallen said she was ready to follow him through hell. She didn't talk about ZR there, just about her wish to stay with him. Like I said earlier, the fact she wants to follow him until hell doesn't contradict her disapproving ZR.
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Old 2009-01-28, 08:35   Link #18090
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I do not think that Kallen intended to die, she just thought it was safe to assume this {and it was, she even said that to Lelouch in #22 Turn} because being a terrorist with not a clear plan or total back-up, will lead to this result.
What i get from the poem, is that she was gonna be ok, when that day comes, she had compromised with the idea of death,

Now, her "plans" changed somewhere along the way.
But i do not think faith has nothing to do with the fact, whether you are ready to die or not. It was just her resolve.
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Old 2009-01-28, 08:50   Link #18091
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I do not think that Kallen intended to die, she just thought it was safe to assume this {and it was, she even said that to Lelouch in #22 Turn} because being a terrorist with not a clear plan or total back-up, will lead to this result.
What i get from the poem, is that she was gonna be ok, when that day comes, she had compromised with the idea of death,

Now, her "plans" changed somewhere along the way.
But i do not think faith has nothing to do with the fact, whether you are ready to die or not. It was just her resolve.
I'm talking about her first line; She said she made her move but didn't believe anything would come out of this. Thus I think it's safe to assume she wasn't a blind idealistic; She knew they had little if not zero chance to succeed.

Until Lelouch's appearance at least.
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Old 2009-01-28, 08:56   Link #18092
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I'm talking about her first line; She said she made her move but didn't believe anything would come out of this. Thus I think it's safe to assume she wasn't a blind idealistic; She knew they had little if not zero chance to succeed.

Until Lelouch's appearance at least.
Yeah, this is what i said basically.
Only that having faith, is always there. People always have a tiny ray of hope in whatever they do.
But calculating+arrangement does give the important factor or "realistic chances". And this is what BK missed. This is what Lelouch gave to them. It is what Urabe said in #2 in Kallen, he was the only hope they had.
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Old 2009-01-28, 09:02   Link #18093
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Yeah, this is what i said basically.
Only that having faith, is always there. People always have a tiny ray of hope in whatever they do.
But calculating+arrangement does give the important factor or "realistic chances". And this is what BK missed. This is what Lelouch gave to them. It is what Urabe said in #2 in Kallen, he was the only hope they had.
And that's what I said before
Well it was more of a "Lelouch above everything else because he gave her hope" because of this line assuming she didn't really believe anything would come out of it. And I agree for the "tiny ray of hope" but well that's more of a "something good can still happen" than a "We can do this"

Lelouch gave her the "We can do This !"

Lol Lelouch = Obama ? *off*
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Old 2009-01-28, 10:55   Link #18094
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And that's what I said before
Well it was more of a "Lelouch above everything else because he gave her hope" because of this line assuming she didn't really believe anything would come out of it. And I agree for the "tiny ray of hope" but well that's more of a "something good can still happen" than a "We can do this"

Lelouch gave her the "We can do This !"

Lol Lelouch = Obama ? *off*
Lelouch = Obama! I knew it! Either Obama is white or Lelouch is black...
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Old 2009-01-28, 12:27   Link #18095
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About Zero Requiem, coming at this point, this is a question I'd like to have a direct answer from the staff, because everything points toward 'no' but the poems point toward 'yes', so, it would be interesting to know from them.
I'm still of the opinion that she would not have allowed Lelouch to die that way.
I would say, that going by the poem, she understood that there was no other way (or assumed there was no other way) for Lelouch to accomplish what he did. In that case, if she does follow him, she's not 'letting him die' she's following him, and her ideals, to her death. ZR accomplishes all that she set out to do except one thing, to be with her mother. (Not being in ZR, adversely, accomplishes all but one thing as well, to be with Lelouch.)

It's not out of character for her to leave behind her mother in a new, better world, when the person who helped her (re)discover all that was Lelouch. Everything she has (and would have) is because of him. So choosing him over the other options makes sense.
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Old 2009-01-28, 12:49   Link #18096
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Leaving her mother for self-sacrifice is not OOC for her, but allowing Lelouch to put under geass and sent on massacre thousands of human beings, bring war back to Japan, blow up Mt Fuji, and risk the lifes of all the represantative of the UNF, with the consequent destabilization of the organization - beacuse this is what ZR took- well, I don't know how to make this t fit in her character.
It was hard to make up my mind that Suzaku had his reasons to do it, and it was easier to see the reasons for him to be this disilluded and longing for self-annihilation.

ZR is good in the goal, but steps over all the principles Karen has fought for (and she kinda repeats this in the dialogue in the final battle with Suzaku), and I can't see the old Karen accepting this compromise, moreover if it's implied - as from the poem - that the reason why she would have was not her ideal of a better world, but her feelings for Lelouch only.

Her reaction in Turn 19 was very much in-chara for her - heat of the moment and the belief that Lelouch hasn't really cheated on them - but the poem is pointing toward Turn.22, and there, she was not under in the heat of the moment, she had a whole month to rethink the - 'lulz my pawns' VS 'you must live on' - thing. In the meantime, Lelouch had already started ZR, and from there (to answer to Loli, too) I get the idea that the poem means she was ready to join ZR, something that I'm unable to make fit in her character...
but maybe I'm reading too much into that line.

Anyway, I'd have like to had a clear answer about this, coming to this point. PD 9...?
and now that I think about it... what is PD 8 supposed to talk about, news anyone?
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Old 2009-01-28, 13:33   Link #18097
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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
Her reaction in Turn 19 was very much in-chara for her - heat of the moment and the belief that Lelouch hasn't really cheated on them - but the poem is pointing toward Turn.22, and there, she was not under in the heat of the moment, she had a whole month to rethink the - 'lulz my pawns' VS 'you must live on' - thing. In the meantime, Lelouch had already started ZR, and from there (to answer to Loli, too) I get the idea that the poem means she was ready to join ZR, something that I'm unable to make fit in her character...
but maybe I'm reading too much into that line.
The "live on" is actually starting from Turn 19 {thus Kallen's questioning and angst} and "ends" in #22, it was more of the "parting kiss" moment, that is clearly referring to "Emperor Lelouch" Turn.

Anyway, you got some good points, but you have to consider {i'll leave out Lelouch from this, it is about Kallen} how Kallen sees Lelouch and the bond she shares with him.

Kallen gave Lelouch someone to lean on in his difficult job as leader, she gave him a companion to look to when he needed advice and most importantly never let him put the blame of anything on himself. <-- i think that was the point of Turn 19 as well, she knew his "intentions" and she did want to go down along with him. {yeah ok, i won't go on again about Lelouch's exceptional acting abilities that could have him nominated an oscar and pushed her away}
Still though, even after that whole event, she continued questioning that. She needed that answer, not only about his feelings, but she wanted to go with him, fight along his side, whatever that was. {clap, clap Lelouch oscar x 2 in that moment as well}

In general, Lelouch {Zero S1} "fixed" Kallen, he saved her from the doomed-future she had in the beginning of the show. And she acknowledges this and she wants to return it back. {i am leaving romantic feelings out of this, i am talking about more technical-details}
In fact, apart from romance, KallenxLelouch share a very strong bond, but it is being given more from the undertones of some events in the show and it is kinda difficult to detect, thus sometimes this bond is really underrated.
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Old 2009-01-28, 13:35   Link #18098
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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
Leaving her mother for self-sacrifice is not OOC for her, but allowing Lelouch to put under geass and sent on massacre thousands of human beings, bring war back to Japan, blow up Mt Fuji, and risk the lifes of all the represantative of the UNF, with the consequent destabilization of the organization - beacuse this is what ZR took- well, I don't know how to make this t fit in her character.
It was hard to make up my mind that Suzaku had his reasons to do it, and it was easier to see the reasons for him to be this disilluded and longing for self-annihilation.

ZR is good in the goal, but steps over all the principles Karen has fought for (and she kinda repeats this in the dialogue in the final battle with Suzaku), and I can't see the old Karen accepting this compromise, moreover if it's implied - as from the poem - that the reason why she would have was not her ideal of a better world, but her feelings for Lelouch only.

Her reaction in Turn 19 was very much in-chara for her - heat of the moment and the belief that Lelouch hasn't really cheated on them - but the poem is pointing toward Turn.22, and there, she was not under in the heat of the moment, she had a whole month to rethink the - 'lulz my pawns' VS 'you must live on' - thing. In the meantime, Lelouch had already started ZR, and from there (to answer to Loli, too) I get the idea that the poem means she was ready to join ZR, something that I'm unable to make fit in her character...
but maybe I'm reading too much into that line.

Anyway, I'd have like to had a clear answer about this, coming to this point. PD 9...?
and now that I think about it... what is PD 8 supposed to talk about, news anyone?

Spoiler for My thoughts on the subject:
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Old 2009-01-28, 14:10   Link #18099
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Spoiler for My thoughts on the subject:
Good analysis, as expected of you. {and i mean it, honest |D}

Though, frankly, i am 50/50 if Kallen would go through with Zero Requiem. I mean, i guess, eventually she would accept it and probably would help him, but, i believe she would not agree at all in the beginning. Oh well, we'll never know how she would react for sure, so let's leave it like this.

And btw, since the kiss-scene was mentioned, i tend to see that a few people still use the "cold-kiss-scene, it meant nothing" card. And i honestly fail to see this, in terms that it was completely the opposite. Even before the NT booklet or anything.
I mean, everything seems cold and distant, and yet when she reaches for him and pulls him close, he canít help but close his eyes and relish in her touch/kiss. {i always have to add a romantic touch when it comes to this couple even when i am trying not to, beats me why. |D;;}

Overall, romance or not {as leaving that one aside}, Kallen shares a very deep bond with Lelouch, from the start of S1. He was like her Pygmalion, from the moment he appeared in her life, he gave her hope, dreams and all these things she mentions in her poem.
So, it would actually be out of character if she had not insisted on following him more than one time.
Rationality + feelings for her are in sync, till episode 22.
After the confrontation with Lelouch and the "goodbye", it is her rationality {aka ideals+beliefs} that keeps her going, she tosses her emotions aside because she has to. <--in reference to Levy's post about the month-skip.
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Old 2009-01-28, 14:27   Link #18100
Bonzo
I change anime endings.
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Reading all those theories....I'm pretty sure my idea in the comic was the only solution to build a Lelouch/Kallen relationship.

Only a big trauma could to explode Kallen feelings, in fact, few and she could to strangle C.C during the "psychological therapy"
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