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View Poll Results: Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 16 Rating
Perfect 10 180 70.59%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 38 14.90%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 20 7.84%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 1.57%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 0.78%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.39%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.39%
1 out of 10 : Painful 9 3.53%
Voters: 255. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-02-03, 01:05   Link #261
panzerfan
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kk2extreme: funeral expenses typically will rack up to at least $10000 dollars USD if uninsured (which is very likely for Nagisa unless her parents would take all the precaution and get over the social stigma to insure their own child for that kind of stuff). This isn't the kind of things that you would think of the wallet typically mind you.

Now, given it's Japan, Nagisa will not to have her own burial plot and would instead be cremated (Okazaki family grave notwithstanding...). One can use a rental coffin instead of buying one outright so that you only have to burn the body and all. If you want to further reduce the expense, a very low-key funeral service without having to host people should be manageable...

EDIT1: if you really want to do it on the cheap, I guess $2000. Nagisa isn't nearly at the age where she gets funeral expense reimbursement from any government so there's no avoiding shelling out money.
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Old 2009-02-03, 01:17   Link #262
Ithekro
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So....will this be the "once the tears dry we try and rip the story to shreds when it is unnecessary and unwarrented" thread?

I'm not sure where everyone is getting their ideas or even what countries you all live in...but things are not the same the whole world over...even in First World Countries. Nor is the situation ideal for any of the "solutions" presented to the problem.

Fact: Nagisa having a child was a risk, but only if she was sick at the time of delivery. (Her weakest point)

Fact: The baby was an "accident"....not exactly planned. (Tomoya was caught off guard at least) That means they were not exactly trying to have a baby. Sometimes it just happens...even if practising safe sex. (they are a young couple...it is not like they are not going to have sex.)

Fact: Nagisa wanted a baby with Tomoya. There is no getting around this. Adoption is usually the option of a couple that can't have kids because a parent is sterile or they is pretty much a 100% chance the baby and/or mother will die. Nagisa has much better odds than that. In keeping with the "family" theme, a child is a very important thing...it being "theirs" is extremely important to some people. I can't even begin to guess the religious possibilities involved because I can't guess what religion Nagisa and Tomoya were raised under, if any. Religion and culture play important factors when it comes to family.

Assumed: The baby came early, thus whatever plans they had would be ineffective the moment she entered labor. (Do we have approximate dates for the birth and assumed conception?)

Assumed: The Midwife and the Furukawas don't live far away..they could walk/run if they were not already there to begin with.

Assumed: The hospital is in the next city over, which could be some distance away....which is likely why they are building a new hospital in their city to begin with.

Assumed: Nagisa could probably carry the child to term if she had not been sick at the time of delivery. And even at that point her chances seem to be rated at 50% survival. So it is likely that had the baby come on time, Nagisa might have actually had the following:
A better chance of survival. Possibly even a rather low chance of dying.
A hospital room
Better weather.

(Question: In the movie version of this, isn't she in a hospital when she dies? I seem to recall her having a breathing mask of some kind.)
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2009-02-03 at 01:29.
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Old 2009-02-03, 01:32   Link #263
Gundampilotspaz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by destiny4everlove View Post
-Tomoya not calling Nagisa at the bottom of the hill and wishing to have never met her really broke my heart!! That was a very selfish wish on Tomoya’s part, I understand why he did it though. As for me, I would not have made that wish. The pain of losing someone you love is great, but the pain of never knowing that person at all is even greater, of course that IMHO.
.
That scene really shouldn't be understated. It's easy to glance over the importance of it after the impact of what just happened. But that scene and his dialogue have now set the mood for the rest of the series. Tomoya has blamed himself. He was continue to blame himself for a long time. But he hasn't even come to the direct cause of her death yet. He isn't beating himself up for not pressing the abortion issue or stopping her from getting pregnant in the first place. (Which he wouldn't have done. Tomoya puts others before himself and, unfortunately at times, before logic.)

Tomoya wants to go back so far that he never met Nagisa. Tomoya is willing to sacrifice the revitalization of his life in order to save Nagisa. Everything that he had accomplished from that point was because he met Nagisa. He might not have graduated high school, he wouldn't have the promising career he has, and he definitely wouldn't be able to maintain a relationship. We're going to see the complete destruction of Tomoya as a character. The point where he was at the start of episode 16 represents over 40 episodes of growth. All that has just been shattered. What needs to happen now is that Tomoya will either fall back to the bum he was at the start of the series, or he will find the strength to go on in his new daughter.

We still have a tough journey to go before it's over.


Also, the placement of the Big Dango Family theme right when the baby started crying is what got me. It was downhill from there.
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Old 2009-02-03, 01:33   Link #264
Master Chibi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post

Fact: Nagisa having a child was a risk, but only if she was sick at the time of delivery.
Right, so there in starts the guessing game.

Do you want to play around with your wife's life like that?

I certainly hope not.

Quote:
Fact: The baby was an "accident"....not exactly planned. (Tomoya was caught off guard at least) That means they were not exactly trying to have a baby. Sometimes it just happens...even if practising safe sex. (they are a young couple...it is not like they are not going to have sex.)
I'm pretty sure that they were trying to have a baby, especially since the transition lead from Nagisa shyly addmited to wanting one to her blurting out doing ecchi things to her parents in the next scene.

Also, he wasn't shocked at the fact she had a baby, he was shocked she came out and said that, well, they had fucked each other infront of both her parents.

Quote:
Fact: Nagisa wanted a baby with Tomoya. There is no getting around this. Adoption is usually the option of a couple that can't have kids because a parent is sterile or they is pretty much a 100% chance the baby and/or mother will die. Nagisa has much better odds than that. In keeping with the "family" theme, a child is a very important thing...it being "theirs" is extremely important to some people. I can't even begin to guess the religious possibilies involved because I can't guess what religion Nagisa and Tomoya were raised under, if any. Religion and culture play important factors when it comes to family.
Honest to god, if you ignore the fact that your girlfriend had to spend an extra two to three years in high school because she was practically duct taped to the floor from being sick so much when trying to have a baby you are a complete and utter moron. I'm sorry, but in that situation I'm not risking the love of my life just so we can pop out an 8 pound melon out of her from a hole the size of a lemon. Not happening.

Besides which, her being bed ridden was ALWAYS something that was an issue, unfortunately the show only used this as a sorry means of trying to leech more sympathy out of you instead of actually addressing the literal illness itself.

Quote:
Assumed: The baby came early, thus whatever plans they had would be ineffective the moment she entered labor. (Do we have approximate dates for the birth and assumed conception?)
Do we have dates for damn near ANYTHING IMPORTANT IN THIS SHOW?

No we don't.

Quote:
Assumed: The Midwife and the Furukawas don't live far away..they could walk/run if they were not already there to begin with.
Again, we are given no concrete information on this.

Quote:
Assumed: Nagisa could probably carry the child to term if she had not been sick at the time of delivery. And even at that point her chances seem to be rated at 50% survival. So it is likely that had the baby come on time, Nagisa might have actually had the following:

A better chance of survival. Possibly even a rather low chance of dying.
A hospital room
Better weather.
Hey, here's one.

If Nagisa was sick and didn't have a living, breathing thing in her stomach trying to get out one of the following might have happened:

Living.
Not dieing.
The chance to run through a field of daisies while being chased by a litter of adorable puppies as the rays of the sun adorned her face.

Awesome.
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Old 2009-02-03, 01:37   Link #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by destiny4everlove View Post
Honest to god, if you ignore the fact that your girlfriend had to spend an extra two to three years in high school because she was practically duct taped to the floor from being sick so much when trying to have a baby you are a complete and utter moron. I'm sorry, but in that situation I'm not risking the love of my life just so we can pop out an 8 pound melon out of her from a whole the size of a lemon. Not happening.

Besides which, her being bed ridden was ALWAYS something that was an issue, unfortunately the show only used this as a sorry means of trying to leech more sympathy out of you instead of actually addressing the literal illness itself.

As I said above, Tomoya is not the type of person who can say "no" easily, ESPECIALLY to Nagisa. It was Nagisa's choice to have the baby. If it was up to Tomoya or her parents she would have had it aborted and they would have lived a long life together.
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Old 2009-02-03, 01:40   Link #266
Ithekro
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I'm trying to figure out if you are being cynical or not.
.
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Old 2009-02-03, 01:43   Link #267
Master Chibi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gundampilotspaz View Post
As I said above, Tomoya is not the type of person who can say "no" easily, ESPECIALLY to Nagisa. It was Nagisa's choice to have the baby. If it was up to Tomoya or her parents she would have had it aborted and they would have lived a long life together.
Yeah but you say that like it's a cute little thing that she can get away with what she wants, this is her life we're talking about, not whether or not he goes out to get her a pint of ice cream or buys her jewelry or the like.

:\

Quote:
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I'm trying to figure out if you are being cynical or not.
Kay~
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Old 2009-02-03, 01:50   Link #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Chibi View Post
Yeah but you say that like it's a cute little thing that she can get away with what she wants, this is her life we're talking about, not whether or not he goes out to get her a pint of ice cream or buys her jewelry or the like.
So, Tomoya deserves censure from you because he didn't act exactly as you would have had you been in his situation?
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Old 2009-02-03, 01:53   Link #269
Myssa Rei
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Logical Fallacy? Personal Perspective, I think? Because the subject did not react to a situation the same way you would does not make it wrong. Just different from you.

I think MC's arguing for its own sake myself.

A few details might place the events and the decisions of the characters in perspective. UNFORTUNATELY they fall under the realms of spoilers.
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Old 2009-02-03, 01:55   Link #270
Master Chibi
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Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
So, Tomoya deserves censure from you because he didn't act exactly as you would have had you been in his situation?
I'm not blaming Tomoya, I have more or less been hating on the people behind this show / the game at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
I think MC's arguing for its own sake myself.
More or less, yeah.

Just trying to pry more out of things outside of tears at this point.

Quote:
A few details might place the events and the decisions of the characters in perspective. UNFORTUNATELY they fall under the realms of spoilers.
Darn.
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Old 2009-02-03, 02:03   Link #271
Ithekro
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I conclude you are cynical. Nothing entirely bad about that...just it means there is no point in trying to make a argument with you about anything really, it won't go anywhere.
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Old 2009-02-03, 02:06   Link #272
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This is going the direction of personal viewpoint differences best served in pms. Just stop at this point please.

I want to make clear that if what I said seems to move away from the tragedy itself, it has a part to do how that thinking only about this crushing experience would paralyze me mentally. I am at the point where I don't want to be reminded of saying goodbye to someone going six feet under. It can be tad bit morbid that I joined in more goodbyes than congrats from marriages, hehe...
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Old 2009-02-03, 02:14   Link #273
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Agreed. Time to rein in your egos, gentlesirs. Arguments of the episodes are all good and well, but calling out a poster is tantamount to flamebaiting in many forums.

Incidentally, about the episode itself. People have been bemoaning KyoAni's intimate scene allergy for a few weeks, but I noticed no one, aside from Master Chibi's quip about the 'Scenes of your Life' (which were Tomoya's, and NOT Nagisa's), made mention that we actually GOT THEM? Granted, it was in a roundabout manner, but I think it begs mentioning!
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Old 2009-02-03, 02:18   Link #274
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Hey now, I'm not flaming anybody (I've been a very good boy) and I haven't taken offense to anything either, but I'll be quiet for the sake of goodwill at this point.

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Old 2009-02-03, 02:25   Link #275
Ithekro
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I thought I mentioned that we got their intimate scenes....maybe that was somewhere else where people were going off on how come they've never kissed and now they have a baby when the most we ever saw was them having problems holding hands. Must have been 4chan because I think I went though a list of screencaps from the "flashback" of them being intimate to knock out the ones that just put up then in side by side beds holding hands as the most they ever managed....the one of Nagisa sleeping on Tomoya's shoulder is very nice for that...as is the hair cut shot.
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Old 2009-02-03, 02:25   Link #276
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Well, I'm happy at this point that some of that implied intimacy we've been having for the better part of the season was actually shown to us. Too bad they were used to hammer the point that Tomoya's loss hit him like an Astartes Terminator-equipped Chainfist on a Imperial Guard Chimera.

In most cases, folks, the Guard Chimera explodes as a result.
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Old 2009-02-03, 02:27   Link #277
Master Chibi
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Well, I'm happy at this point that some of that implied intimacy we've been having for the better part of the season was actually shown to us. Too bad they were used to hammer the point that Tomoya's loss hit him like a Power Fist on a Imperial Guard Chimera.
Yeah, I agree completely.

:S
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Old 2009-02-03, 02:30   Link #278
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Maybe. Maybe we'll get more "new" flashback type scenes later on. (Mostly to show Tomoya's loss I guess, but still, it is something). She might be dead, but I hardly think this will be the last time we see her. Too much of an impact on Tomoya to simply have her gone from memory.
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Old 2009-02-03, 04:39   Link #279
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I think Nagisa and Tomoya's apartment is indeed close enough to walk to the Furukawa's. If you look in previous eps Nagisa gets walked home by Tomoya all the time, and I don't think she has her father drive her to Tomoya's house every morning. Also there's no hospital close by, they were building a new one for that reason.

Bah still seeing all the peope in this thread bash Nagisa and Tomoya is making me irritated haha. Seriously from the character's PoV it isn't 100% set it stone that Nagisa dies. The viewers get so much foreshadowing that they'd choke but fever + pregnent =/= INSTANT DEATH LOL. Oh well I don't feel like debating this >< I guess I'm a biased from having played the game and having a huge attachment to the characters.

Well the magical illness annoyed me a bit too, but explaning that plot device out is a huge spoiler that remains relevant even though Nagisa's dead.
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Old 2009-02-03, 05:51   Link #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Chibi View Post
Her entire 'illness' is this god awful crutch the show has constantly fallen back on to squeeze more out of you anyway. They never tell you what it is she has, where she got it, why she got it, if there's ever been a cure for it, nothing. It's just this nameless evil they can utilize to their heart's content when they need to.

:\
This is just so very, very true for the show. We do know why and where though. She walked in the snow while she had a fever and got even worse, because she wanted to see her parents. (Which was, admittedly very stupid. Even for a little kid, if you are sick and your parents know where you are, why would you leave the house?)

But for a cure and what it is, we still don't know. And that's just going to be such a crutch for the series after this monumental scene. Clannad is usually about taking the happy with the sad at the same time, but this time we are just going to get bombarded by so much negativity that it'll be hard to take anything.

Spoiler for Nagisa and Diseases:
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