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Old 2009-02-03, 03:22   Link #1901
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
In addition to stress, we also don't know how shields interact with attacks to stop them. Nanohaverse shields do not fail locally when penetrated like real world physical armor. When a shield is penetrated, the whole shield goes down.
So do shields absorb the incoming energy until they overload and fail? Or do they cause the incoming energy to "splatter" on them like water sprayed onto concrete?
If shields can cause "bolt" type attacks to splatter, the effectiveness of such an attack would be sharply reduced.
Bad analogy Jimmy.

Water is much less dense than concrete.

The magic blasts we've seen are roughly equal in density as it stands to the shields employed.

See. If we're doing what I'm doing to nanoha's beam, to water. That is, somehow compressing the fire hose stream down to a small super dense ice crystal and flinging it at once a high speed into the concrete. It's not going to 'splatter'... it's going to behave more like a piece of H2O metal. (Assuming of course, you could do that to water.) Incidently, high pressure low area steam bursts at a power planet can CUT YOU IN HALF. And high pressure water jets can and have been used to cut wood and concrete.

This is why depleted uranium is used in tank rounds. It's super high density makes it so that no matter what defense you use, you either have to use a disproportionately thick defense, or use a matching material as the defense. Thus, depleted uranium ARMOR PLATING.

The 'CORRECT' response to defending against such a bolt would be applying the size compression to the defensive shield to counter it.

However, you have two problems.

1: In order to protect against the small projectile, you lose your full body shielding.
2: Because the attack is compressed in not only space, but time, you must also TIME your defense to match it... because the attack is 6 seconds of energy in 1/8th of a second, while the shield being held in protective cover is not.

Thus, you have to effectively locate the attack and slap the defense up overcharged at the moment of impact. Your 'shield' has effectively become a Point Defense where you throw a super high density micro barrier containing six seconds of barrier charge up in the path of the incoming shot just long enough to defeat it.

Thus it is harder to defend than to attack.

Now, as for nanoha barriers and local failure. They fail like a crystal fails. They're strong, but they are BRITTLE. The moment of local failure in the lattice structure instantly fractures out across the entire surface causing a catastrophic failure of that entire surface. In the case of of barriers failing, it occures so fast you don't really see the local failure before the whole thing comes apart.

Titanium, considered a strong metal, is brittle. When it fails, it will SNAP. IT has to be alloyed with other materials to give it elasticity.

It's this reason that diamond is not a good idea as a shielding material in combat. Diamond is certainly the hardest material known, but because it is a crystal, it is brittle and would not be able to take combat stresses without shattering. It is brittleness that makes it important to put steel reinforcement rods into concrete.
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Old 2009-02-03, 03:44   Link #1902
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But using the water analogy can also be a bad thing, I mean, what if Nanoha's body is not a hose, but a dam.

I'm sure every one of us has built sand dams once, to stop a river from flowing or the like. At first it's easy, but the closer you come to closing it, the denser the flow of the water (magical energy) becomes, and the easier the dam (Nanoha's body) breaks.

So concentrating more energy in a round might actually lead to dangerous effects if taken to a certain level. It's possible that Divine Buster (which, let's face it, is not a punch with a pillow) is as far as she can stress that much energy in one blast. That would then also why Starlight Breaker is bigger, because it's more energy, and thus needs a bigger 'gap in the dam' to prevent it from damaging Nanoha's body more then it does already.
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Old 2009-02-03, 04:05   Link #1903
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
But using the water analogy can also be a bad thing, I mean, what if Nanoha's body is not a hose, but a dam.

I'm sure every one of us has built sand dams once, to stop a river from flowing or the like. At first it's easy, but the closer you come to closing it, the denser the flow of the water (magical energy) becomes, and the easier the dam (Nanoha's body) breaks.

So concentrating more energy in a round might actually lead to dangerous effects if taken to a certain level. It's possible that Divine Buster (which, let's face it, is not a punch with a pillow) is as far as she can stress that much energy in one blast. That would then also why Starlight Breaker is bigger, because it's more energy, and thus needs a bigger 'gap in the dam' to prevent it from damaging Nanoha's body more then it does already.
The dam analogy is bad because the subject causing the failure is not pressure, it's erosion. A breach to a dam structure results in a high pressure flow yes, but that high pressure flow creates fast moving water which erodes the structure by picking up small loose bits one particle at a time. If the failure proponent was pressure alone, the entire structure would fail all at once at the very moment a critical pressure was reached. At the moment of breach in a dam, it retains its structure but over the course of the breach, the erosion weakens the structure until it reaches a point where the critical pressure is greater than the structural strength, and that is why it bursts.

A dam is generally made of earth and concrete, which are used because they are cheap and easy to work with on large scales. Both concrete and dirt are extremely suceptable to erosion.
If you were to ignore the completely and totally insane cost and build it out of stainless steel and alloys, there would be absolutely no measurable erosion to the structure whatsoever over the course of an earthen dam's lifetime. (There would be some corrosion chemically, but that's a different principle.)
The areas of dams such as floodgates routinely handle these high pressure flows you refference. And floodgates such as those on mansfield dam, just fifteen miles down the road from me, are at the base of the dam, where water pressure is at the highest.

A dam failure is not a single failure, but millions of tiny failures that accumulate at a frightning rate.


EDIT:

The correct place for the dam erosion analogy would be Rein Eins and the final part of the book of darkness incident.

A vast reserviour of magical potential, leaking out and becoming less and less controlled until it goes completely haywire and fails in a spectacular fashon.
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Old 2009-02-03, 04:40   Link #1904
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Actually, Jimmy's analogies are good here, and they're being held back by your lack of understanding of engineering.

For example, while erosion failure is a source of long-term damage to a dam, truly catastrophic failures are caused by water pressure. This is why many dams cannot be used to prevent flooding altogether. The river's flow through the spillway can be blocked and the water will accumulate, until at some point the force placed on the dam by the water exceeds the dam's structural strength, something warps or bends or cracks, and a dam failure results, much to the displeasure of anyone downstream. It's not "well, we're worried that the rushing water will wear away the dam," it's "if we don't open the gates the whole dam will go and you'll get the entire lake at once."

You can't make an invulnerable dam out of stainless steel and alloys. It would be stronger, to be sure, and certainly more corrosion-resistant. However, it too will have a finite amount of water that it can hold back, and that finite amount isn't necessarily the amount of water it takes to overtop the dam; if the lake behind the dam is more full than your design specification calls for, the dam will fail.

I'm hesitant to use Reinforce as a source of analogy. She's not a mage, or even very like a mage; furthermore, she's damaged and not functioning properly to begin with. It's very hard to extrapolate from her failure mode to the "normal" functioning of a Mid mage.

It's also pointless to talk about beam and shield "density" like it was something we could measure. Bleh. We can discuss their behavior as observed, but saying "Nanoha should shoot super-time-and-space-compressed Divine Busters" isn't much different from saying "Goku should shoot ten Kamehamehas at once instead of just one!"
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Old 2009-02-03, 05:03   Link #1905
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Actually, Jimmy's analogies are good here, and they're being held back by your lack of understanding of engineering.
I understand more than you give me credit for. Trust me, I didn't max out my mechanical principle scores (120/120) because I sucked at them. You're mis-interpreting what I said.

(EDIT: By the way, the damn Analogy belongs to Keroko... it's the concrete wall analogy that's Jimmy's.)

Quote:
For example, while erosion failure is a source of long-term damage to a dam, truly catastrophic failures are caused by water pressure. This is why many dams cannot be used to prevent flooding altogether. The river's flow through the spillway can be blocked and the water will accumulate, until at some point the force placed on the dam by the water exceeds the dam's structural strength, something warps or bends or cracks, and a dam failure results, much to the displeasure of anyone downstream. It's not "well, we're worried that the rushing water will wear away the dam," it's "if we don't open the gates the whole dam will go and you'll get the entire lake at once."
The dam analogy still fails. What Keroko is trying to present (Or at least APPEARS to be trying to present), is the gap of the floodgates and or spillway, that if you make that smaller while the water is running through it, it somehow harder and harder to keep the integrity of the dam. There was nothing stated about overtopping the dam and going beyond the pressure the dam was designed to contain.

I was pointing out the historical events of dam breaches that resulted from such erosion factors. You start with a leak, the dam's still holding. The leak and pressure erodes bits of the dam, the leak gets larger, the erosion rate grows with it, until the erosion is taking chunks of concrete out of the wall and ultimately compromises the structure and THEN the pressure does its thing.


If we go with the analogy as you're trying to present it, the dam overtopping would be nanoha charging up five tandem starlight breakers while boosted to blaster III power level. How can she hold that much 'pressure' back?


Quote:
You can't make an invulnerable dam out of stainless steel and alloys. It would be stronger, to be sure, and certainly more corrosion-resistant. However, it too will have a finite amount of water that it can hold back, and that finite amount isn't necessarily the amount of water it takes to overtop the dam; if the lake behind the dam is more full than your design specification calls for, the dam will fail.
I know this. It will still have a pressure failure point, but because it will be solid metal, it will be damn near (pardon the pun) impossible to cause erosion damage to it that occures in historical catastrophic dam failure because it won't be made of materials that erode as easily as earth and concrete.

Mansfield dam, as I mentioned I live close to. Is sixty years old, and they will NOT let the water overtop the dam and go onto it's spillway because of the risk of the structure failure due to pressure. (It's old. It has some stress fractures.) And I most certainly DON'T want to see twenty thousand people in downtown austin suddenly have to check if they know how to swim because sixty four miles of lake just came down on them.


Quote:
I'm hesitant to use Reinforce as a source of analogy. She's not a mage, or even very like a mage; furthermore, she's damaged and not functioning properly to begin with. It's very hard to extrapolate from her failure mode to the "normal" functioning of a Mid mage.
I'm just pointing where the dam erosion analogy belongs. Rein's not really relevant to the topic.

Quote:
It's also pointless to talk about beam and shield "density" like it was something we could measure. Bleh. We can discuss their behavior as observed, but saying "Nanoha should shoot super-time-and-space-compressed Divine Busters" isn't much different from saying "Goku should shoot ten Kamehamehas at once instead of just one!"
No, it would be like asking Goku turn his Kamehameha into a a pencil sized shot.

I'm not asking that of Nanoha to make her shot ten X bigger, I'm essentially saying she should take her 'blowdryer' and make it an 'air rifle'.
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Old 2009-02-03, 05:31   Link #1906
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Erosion is only part of the problem, but erosion is strengthened by pressure. The more pressure, the faster the erosion. A storm causing the water to flood over the dam is but one way of being on the receiving end of a flood.

For example, the flood of Wilnis in 2003 was caused by a heatwave that had dried the dam, causing it to weaken and eventually a small portion of it broke down. The water, which suddenly had another way out, rushed into the small gap, widening it and causing the the town to be flooded in minutes. A clear example of pressure flooding. A small gap could have been found and contained quickly enough, but because of the pressure, the gap widened to fast for anyone to do anything against it in time.

Water doesn't need to overflood a dam to cause a dambreak, a small gap in the dam is enough to cause massive damage.

Also, on the subject of 'steel dams' we've done that. (all hail Dutch waterworks :3)

However, Nanoha's body is more akin to a veendam then a steel dam. And there the 'when we were kids playing in the sand' analogy comes back. The dam we build was fine when we started, but when we tried to close the last gap, the pressure of the water flowing through that gap simply became too much and the damn would break.
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Old 2009-02-03, 05:33   Link #1907
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
There is no comprable action in real life to measure. We don't/can't exactly go around determining how much mentle stamina it takes to focus a flashlight beam into a laser.
A flashlight beam can be focused into a point. You can filter it with a polarizing filter so it is polarized light, but it cannot be "focused" into a laser beam due to its lack of coherency.

However, overall it is less problematic to think of magic as a form of massive particle than massless energy. This brings up analogies of us knowing how much effort it takes to squeeze say a gas to many times atmospheric pressure (400 times, according to your requirement), and the increased requirements on containment.

Quote:
I think of it as a factor akin to a water pump.
All right.

Quote:
In thise case, Nanoha's linker core is a water pump connected to a hose. How much she can pump herself, plus external 'pressure' provided by a cartridge. I believe the only time the capability of the pump is a factor is during the pressurizing/charging phase of a spell.
Actually, this is probably not true. You can't have the canonically observed beam of war UNLESS substantial parts of the attack are not pumped out until after emission begins - there will be no force to push it along.

Quote:
In this case, the actual firing of the buster is not the straining point for Nanoha, it's the moments leading right up to it when she's building the charge. Once the energy is released, it's got nothing to do with her linker core, so the method of its release isn't a factor to strain.
Yes, the problem is when it is released.

Quote:
As for holding and containing that energy. Up until the actual point of firing, it has to be held SOMEWHERE. Either that fist sized sphere, or some kind of internal capacitor in RH. Either way, their peak energy per unit time in a specified space is not a problem.
If it is held in an internal capacitator, it is presumably pumped out of the capacitator through some kind of pipeline when emitted (not "fired", "fired" implies near-instantaneous release of some sort, which is not true for a beam). Please justify your idea that said pipelines will hold as peak pressures surges over the canonically shown amount due to your attempt to increase flow rate by more than an order of magnitude. Or why you think the pumps could even "move" the mana at ten times the current flow rate.

Similar is the ignored possibility of the capacitator being in Nanoha herself. It is entirely possible the "ball" you see outside is more a "formatter" than a "prepared energy (actually energetic particles) balloon" - raw mana gets pumped out of Nanoha, into the ball where it is converted and emitted. In which case the strain is all on pipes inside the body. Please explain also, in this scenario, why you think the formatting system might not be damaged as flow goes through it at 10 times the normal rate.

Finally, we'll assume the particle beam is all in the ball. Please justify why you think the ball can be induced to discharge its contents at 24 times the canonical rate.

In all three cases, please substantiate your belief that containment measures can be improved to deliver enough force to achieve a over two order (actually three if you count the fact you are discharging faster as well) of magnitude increase over canonically demonstrated energy density. Then justify why you think it will not fail (note that the two are slightly separate concepts). Remember that in your beam, you've shrunk volume by 400 times, but the surface area (load bearing area of the containment field) decreases far less, thus area for area the containment field is under much greater stress. Especially since Divine Buster sometimes detonates on impact (StrikerS Ep1 for example), implying volatility under increased pressure (mana volatility under excessive pressure might be a reason why Nanoverse bolts and beams are so darn slow, becuase high velocity emission will probably involve higher pressures), or at least failure of the containment field under such conditions. Please explain the measures you plan to take to ensure this volatility will not cause your new "improved" beambolt to explode before it reaches its target due to loss of containment field integrity, or substantiate your belief that a two order of magnitude pressure increase will not threaten the stability of the ammunition.

Quote:
On top of this, using a high density bolt with a quick burst discharge should actually be easier on Nanoha's body in terms of strain because she only has to build a peak charge 1/24th that of a full divine buster to achieve equal to superior results.
Even if we ignore all engineering issues in actualizing your new bolt (if you reduce the total energy by 24 times below the current limit, the engineering problems in maintaining the power should be minimal to none - that's why we have so many low energy bolts flying around Nanoverse), Power is not a substitute for Energy. It is more a means of making energy application more efficient by limiting opportunities for dissipation and the like. Power without Energy is little more than an interesting mathematical result. Thus, your idea will achieve far inferior results under most conditions.
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Old 2009-02-03, 05:59   Link #1908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
snip "We went over this part and we seem to be in agreeance."
Quote:
However, Nanoha's body is more akin to a veendam then a steel dam. And there the 'when we were kids playing in the sand' analogy comes back. The dam we build was fine when we started, but when we tried to close the last gap, the pressure of the water flowing through that gap simply became too much and the damn would break.
So explain how it makes her a dam though. Obviously she's a 'pressure containment vessel' of SOME kind. However the pressure generated is not ambient, it's pressure she puts there herself. Obviously since she has a 'peak pressure' when an attack is fully charged before firing, the sand dam analogy your using is invalid because the 'dam' is SEALED already.

You are still failing to address the fact that the highest moment of energy and 'pressure' is the moment before firing. Not the firing itself. And we are clearly shown that she packs all the energy of her buster into a small area (the buster's sphere) in this moment prior to firing.
If she couldn't pack this energy, it would either leak in some fantasticly extreme fashon, explode in her face, recoil back through her with a backlash that would PROBABLY kill her, or simply not allow her to force it any further.


The only real potential hinderance I have yet to see anyone argue with is if it is actually safe for nanoha to 'depressurize' 48 times faster than normal.
Which I would then counter with, if she fires 1/24th, she's only depressurizing about twice as fast. (As if packing the whole six second event at normal size into a buster only half as long.) And even then, it would still be less strain than a SLB or B3 SLB X5.

*Shrug*

People seem determined to prove that all of what Nanoha does has to be the most perfected form possible. And I have to throw down the guantlet and say that sure, she's an ace, but she's human. She's not perfect by any means, and that her buster's beam is not the most efficient use of her energy by two orders of magnitude. (Yes, two orders of magnitude. Because 960 to 1 is two decimal places, which is two powers of ten, which are known as orders of magnitude. But we know that.)

Good discussion though.
Yes, I'm a heretic. ^_^
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Old 2009-02-03, 06:08   Link #1909
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Why I'm saying Nanoha is a dam is because the magical energy is already present in her body long before she even starts casting a spell. It's like a lake of magical energy. To release it, she has to 'open' a part of the 'dam' containing it. She can open a small gap to let a little bit of energy trickle through for low level spells, but as soon as she tries to push more energy through that small gap, she increased the pressure on that small gap, increasing the chance of a 'dambreak'

To safely channel the energy for a Divine Buster, she needs a larger gap which would create less pressure on the dam. This method is not necessarily perfect, and chances are she could tweak the gap to be smaller to allow less unneeded energy to come through, but Nanoha is particularly noted for her control so such a tweak would be small. Unlike Hayate, who has a vast lake, bigger then Nanoha's, but is not as good in opening gaps as Nanoha, leading to more loss of energy.

This would then also be why Starlight Breaker is dangerous for her health, because it pumps a lot more 'water' through a hole that isn't created to handle such a pressure.
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Old 2009-02-03, 06:34   Link #1910
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
However, overall it is less problematic to think of magic as a form of massive particle than massless energy. This brings up analogies of us knowing how much effort it takes to squeeze say a gas to many times atmospheric pressure (400 times, according to your requirement), and the increased requirements on containment.

I see a subtle stacking the deck setup.



Quote:
Actually, this is probably not true. You can't have the canonically observed beam of war UNLESS substantial parts of the attack are not pumped out until after emission begins - there will be no force to push it along.
Only if we play directly on the assumption you propose to treat them exclusively as particles. But there is still a way around this by treating them as a self contained particle accellerator. If we drop back and observe 'It's magic' like team Keroko would deliver in a heartbeat, it would be entirely possible that the sphrear of magic energy is combination storage and 'magic particle accellerator'. In which we then have the function that we don't even need a pump at firing time.

Still, carrying on. If you assume that nanoha has to provide a feeding pressure for beam upkeap at the same rate in which the beam is discharging, it means she has to draw in, process, and forward that energy at the rate of discharge or it will immediately drop off to her rate of feed. If she can do that, there is no point to the beam's required charge up time at all.

Quote:
If it is held in an internal capacitator, it is presumably pumped out of the capacitator through some kind of pipeline when emitted (not "fired", "fired" implies near-instantaneous release of some sort, which is not true for a beam). Please justify your idea that said pipelines will hold as peak pressures surges over the canonically shown amount due to your attempt to increase flow rate by more than an order of magnitude. Or why you think the pumps could even "move" the mana at ten times the current flow rate.
I would discard this scenario actually. The semantics I was using when I phrased the statement were merely illistrative. I would conclude that the energy is contained as per scenario 3 listed further below.

Quote:
Similar is the ignored possibility of the capacitator being in Nanoha herself. It is entirely possible the "ball" you see outside is more a "formatter" than a "prepared energy (actually energetic particles) balloon" - raw mana gets pumped out of Nanoha, into the ball where it is converted and emitted. In which case the strain is all on pipes inside the body. Please explain also, in this scenario, why you think the formatting system might not be damaged as flow goes through it at 10 times the normal rate.
I would not justify this scenario on the basis of the observations of divine busters show the energy to appear to collect in the sphere itself. Thus I would discard it and go with scenario 3.

Quote:
Finally, we'll assume the particle beam is all in the ball. Please justify why you think the ball can be induced to discharge its contents at 24 times the canonical rate.
Short answer: "Hey dumbass! CATCH!"
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Old 2009-02-03, 06:38   Link #1911
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
However, overall it is less problematic to think of magic as a form of massive particle than massless energy.
Out of curiosity, how do you explain healing magic then? Or boost magic?
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Old 2009-02-03, 06:47   Link #1912
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Why I'm saying Nanoha is a dam is because the magical energy is already present in her body long before she even starts casting a spell. It's like a lake of magical energy. To release it, she has to 'open' a part of the 'dam' containing it. She can open a small gap to let a little bit of energy trickle through for low level spells, but as soon as she tries to push more energy through that small gap, she increased the pressure on that small gap, increasing the chance of a 'dambreak'
Okay, I'll go with this here.
So nanoha is a dam holding back X magical water. The water's rest state is putting pressure on the dam. We'll call this the ambient pressure.

When you open one flood gate, the pressure is released ever so slightly and it trickles out.

The problem occures when you say that she tries to force more water through the flood gate.

Where'd she suddenly increase the ambient pressure of the lake?
Because asside from some kind of pump in the gate, or external activity increasing the ambient water pressure. The flow of water through the flood gate remains the same. (Assuming of course, you don't adjust the flood gate to various levels like HALF open... which they can do.)

The only possible ways for that flood gate to damage this dam would be either the flood gate isn't letting the water out fast enough that the lake rises, overtops, and washes the whole dam away. Or the flood gate tunnel is made of styrofoam packing peanuts and erodes away the moment the water goes through it and the dam gets ripped open.


But you can't FORCE the water through flood the gate, because that requires tweaking the reservior itself. (Or one HELL of a turbopump.)
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Old 2009-02-03, 06:53   Link #1913
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Out of curiosity, how do you explain healing magic then? Or boost magic?
Don't ask me for precise engineering details, but minor healing magic is presumably some set of particles that radiates in a fashion that excites the natural reproductive activity of cells.

Major healing magic is probably some kind of pseudomatter trick (read: "band-aid skin") due to the limits of natural reproduction. It seems likely, given the known limitations of healing magic (they seem to do OK on small wounds but heavy wounds still put people in the hospital), that most healing magic is of the former basic type, if the latter type is practical at all.

Boost magic is probably the magical equivalent of adding chemical catalysts.

If you are unhappy with those questions, I must wonder, how will making it pure energy (remember, lightspeed and all that) make this any easier to solve?
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Old 2009-02-03, 07:08   Link #1914
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
"I don't know. I forgot about that detail."
Fixed it for ya' ark!
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Old 2009-02-03, 07:15   Link #1915
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ROFTLMAO. I didn't forget it. However, since in my assessment such problems are no more easily solved using massless energy theories, I did not consider it an advantage for energy. And even if it was marginally easier to solve using an energy theory, but I wonder why it would - the possibilities with massive interactions are so much more plentiful, its disadvantages of being utterly inconsistent with more easily evaluated attacks and observable mana clearly taken precedence.
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Old 2009-02-03, 07:39   Link #1916
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
I'll bite today.
Nice of you. BTW, how does it feel being bitten by a half dozen people simultaneously?

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I see a subtle stacking the deck setup.
Which you aren't trying to break.

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Only if we play directly on the assumption you propose to treat them exclusively as particles. But there is still a way around this by treating them as a self contained particle accellerator. If we drop back and observe 'It's magic'
Don't. Any hope you have for extrapolating anything meaningful from observation depends vitally on assuming it is similar to known principles. If you observe "it is magic", you won't be able to even convincingly demonstrate it is possible or impossible and without the ability to extrapolate or interpolate will be forced to say that anything that's not explicitly shown is not possible.

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like team Keroko would deliver in a heartbeat, it would be entirely possible that the sphrear of magic energy
Energy, because it is massless, goes at lightspeed. How will you trap it in a sphere? And don't say it is magic. And how can you create enough structure for a tool when all the luxons are flying around at lightspeed (in fact they can't go at any other speed).

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is combination storage and 'magic particle accellerator'. In which we then have the function that we don't even need a pump at firing time.
What particles is it accelerating? And an "accelerator" is functionally analogical to a "pump" - as a means to move particles around.

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Still, carrying on. If you assume that nanoha has to provide a feeding pressure for beam upkeap at the same rate in which the beam is discharging, it means she has to draw in, process, and forward that energy at the rate of discharge or it will immediately drop off to her rate of feed. If she can do that, there is no point to the beam's required charge up time at all.
In a beam of war situation, if she doesn't "upkeep" the beam as the same rate it is discharging, she'll lose the battle because the beam will collapse.

As for the charge up, what happened to incantation (even though its not said, the energy's conversion program is being loaded and formed up), in-body pressurization ... etc?

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I would not justify this scenario on the basis of the observations of divine busters show the energy to appear to collect in the sphere itself.
While I won't deny some percentage of the energy is in the sphere, note what I said about beam of war. Heck, if all the energy is really in the ball, it seems more efficient to just throw the ball at the enemy as you smart-assedly suggest below - say with a ring accelerator like plasma lancer. The fact this isn't done says something about where most of the energy is stored in Divine Buster.

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Short answer: "Hey dumbass! CATCH!"
OK, my mistake in assuming you'll try and answer intelligently. I meant controlled. Now try again.

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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
You are still failing to address the fact that the highest moment of energy and 'pressure' is the moment before firing. Not the firing itself. And we are clearly shown that she packs all the energy of her buster into a small area (the buster's sphere) in this moment prior to firing.
In fact, one could easily say this is a sign that most of the energy is not in the sphere.

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The only real potential hinderance I have yet to see anyone argue with is if it is actually safe for nanoha to 'depressurize' 48 times faster than normal.
Which I would then counter with, if she fires 1/24th, she's only depressurizing about twice as fast. (As if packing the whole six second event at normal size into a buster only half as long.) And even then, it would still be less strain than a SLB or B3 SLB X5.
Since you agree that there are problems in depressurizing, why don't you prove that it is possible to actually depressurize measurably faster than is canonically shown.

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People seem determined to prove that all of what Nanoha does has to be the most perfected form possible. And I have to throw down the guantlet and say that sure, she's an ace, but she's human. She's not perfect by any means, and that her buster's beam is not the most efficient use of her energy by two orders of magnitude. (Yes, two orders of magnitude. Because 960 to 1 is two decimal places, which is two powers of ten, which are known as orders of magnitude. But we know that.)
While as you know I'm the last person to just assume TSAB competence, what I find amusing is your ignorance of engineering factors in your headlong rush to proving that she can do it more efficiently by 3 (when you are at 960:1, it is a lot closer to 3 orders of magnitude than 2) orders of magnitude (by the way, IIRC you asked for 2m to be compressed to 10cm, which is actually a 400 times increase in density, and then 48 times faster, which means you actually originally asked for 19200 times, for nearly 4.3 orders of magnitude improvement). In the meantime, you don't even seem to realize that Power is no substitute for energy. While if she can improve power density by a factor of 960 she would be somewhat more efficient, the gain will depend sharply on the situation, and will be far less than 960 times in virtually any scenario. In fact, for various applications, concentrating too much energy on one point is actually counterproductive, which is why JHP amunition, which actually decrease pressure is popular (and being banned from using JHPs, militaries try to make tumbling and fragmentating ammo to get the same effect). And why for the same megatonnage, you can cover more area with many small bombs, and also why submunitions are so well liked...

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2009-02-03 at 07:57.
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Old 2009-02-03, 08:00   Link #1917
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Don't ask me for precise engineering details, but minor healing magic is presumably some set of particles that radiates in a fashion that excites the natural reproductive activity of cells.

Major healing magic is probably some kind of pseudomatter trick (read: "band-aid skin") due to the limits of natural reproduction. It seems likely, given the known limitations of healing magic (they seem to do OK on small wounds but heavy wounds still put people in the hospital), that most healing magic is of the former basic type, if the latter type is practical at all.

Boost magic is probably the magical equivalent of adding chemical catalysts.
Hmm, slight disagreement on major healing magic. It's still very considerable in power. Erio's broken arm would have taken about four to six weeks to fully heal naturally, if I recall. Vice was even unconscious in a bed, as was Zafira. Yet, merely one week later, all three of them were fighting at top level, Erio even a notch higher then top.

It should also be noted that Zafira and Vice were still bandaged and in cast when they left the hospital the day of the final battle, yet showed no sign of injury during their fights.

And on small healing magic, since they are particles that radiate, doesn't that make the effect energy based still?

This also makes me wonder, if they are particles shouldn't that make it impossible for our mages to create Devices? After all, if they are particles, and generated in the body, then making a device should mean an equal amount of particles disappear from the body.

Imagine Raising Heart being made from Nanoha's right lung. <_<

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
If you are unhappy with those questions, I must wonder, how will making it pure energy (remember, lightspeed and all that) make this any easier to solve?
It's an entirely different form of energy, putting aside the maximum speed it can achieve, magic has shown to being able to achieve a large variety of speeds from hovering to fast moving bullets (Vice in 26, if you want an example) therefore, and combined with the large variety of effects it has shown to be able to achieve, (cloaking, healing, damaging, solidifying, flying, shielding, transforming, telepathic communication, jamming, teleporting, changing into a variety of ellements and what have you) it has already shown not to apply to the regular laws that apply to most common forms energy.

In short: It's magic.
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Old 2009-02-03, 08:22   Link #1918
AdmiralTigerclaw
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[QUOTE=arkhangelsk;2195867]


Energy, because it is massless, goes at lightspeed. How will you trap it in a sphere? And don't say it is magic. And how can you create enough structure for a tool when all the luxons are flying around at lightspeed (in fact they can't go at any other speed).

"Magic" ^_^

Assuming it's acting as either magic light, or magic particle, the same way you trap it in a particle accellerator. 'Magic' magnetic field.


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What particles is it accelerating? And an "accelerator" is functionally analogical to a "pump" - as a means to move particles around.
Different principles of acelleration between the typical 'pump'. In this case, packing more fluid in to force fluid on the other end out. Where as a particle accellerator uses magnetic fields to draw the 'magic particle whatevers' in a loop until they reach intended velocity, and are then held there until the loop is opened and they fly clear on their own velcotiy.

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In a beam of war situation, if she doesn't "upkeep" the beam as the same rate it is discharging, she'll lose the battle because the beam will collapse.
So if she can fire the energy continuously, what does she need to charge it for? What would she need cartridges to decrease the 'charge cycle' if she can provide a continuous conversion stream for the duration of the shot?

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As for the charge up, what happened to incantation (even though its not said, the energy's conversion program is being loaded and formed up), in-body pressurization ... etc?
Not relevant. With a computer doing the work, the incantation pattern would be near instantanious. The computer on RH is fast enough to have real time active semi-sentience. Mathematical manipulation formulae wouldn't even register as processor loading.

It is clearly a charge cycle as the introduction of cartridges shortens her time to fire. And we are told explicitly that cartridges are compressed magical energy. So we KNOW they provide explicitly an energy boost that cuts the charge time out.


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While I won't deny some percentage of the energy is in the sphere, note what I said about beam of war. Heck, if all the energy is really in the ball, it seems more efficient to just throw the ball at the enemy as you smart-assedly suggest below - say with a ring accelerator like plasma lancer. The fact this isn't done says something about where most of the energy is stored in Divine Buster.


Considering my point about cartridges neutralizes your point about beam O war... It really does seem more efficient to throw the ball, which is what I suggest anyway by turning the beam into a bolt. (A bolt's really just a fancy name for a fast moving ball in this case.) The ball is the buster energy, delivered all at once, in a small nasty package.


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OK, my mistake in assuming you'll try and answer intelligently. I meant controlled. Now try again.
It was my mistake to think you could handle a joke about an obvious answer.

So go glay dodge ball. There is only one control you need on that ball. "Go thataway!" *BANG!*

It's a straight line weapon. Just as is the buster. No 'controls' are required. Point at desired target, let whatever method you can bake up to accellerate your sphere do it's job, and allow impact to do the rest.

The point remains to take the energy she wastes delivering to a two meter wide surface over six seconds, and pack it down to a nice bundle of energy and smack the target with it all at once rather than drawn out and very inefficient beam.
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Old 2009-02-03, 08:30   Link #1919
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Hmm, slight disagreement on major healing magic. It's still very considerable in power. Erio's broken arm would have taken about four to six weeks to fully heal naturally, if I recall. Vice was even unconscious in a bed, as was Zafira. Yet, merely one week later, all three of them were fighting at top level, Erio even a notch higher then top.

It should also be noted that Zafira and Vice were still bandaged and in cast when they left the hospital the day of the final battle, yet showed no sign of injury during their fights.
Note that when I said "major", I was in this case not so much referring to ability than process. Yes, accelerating the healing by a factor of as much as 10 is pretty impressive, but if they had that pseudomatter healing technique I mentioned, hospitals would be extinct in Midchildra.

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And on small healing magic, since they are particles that radiate, doesn't that make the effect energy based still?
Well, it can emit something similar to beta particles, which aren't energy.

More seriously, I won't deny that magic has energy (without energy, scientifically you can't do anything, and since magic can obviously do something...). It also obviously radiates energy (at the very least, it glows, which would be rather difficult if it doesn't emit light). What's important however, is that it is emitted from massive particles, otherwise we'll have all kind of problems with containemnt and the like.

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This also makes me wonder, if they are particles shouldn't that make it impossible for our mages to create Devices? After all, if they are particles, and generated in the body, then making a device should mean an equal amount of particles disappear from the body.

Imagine Raising Heart being made from Nanoha's right lung. <_<
Amusing, but it seems clear that the particles of magic are all around us. Those "informative sources" even says the linker core absorbs and stores them. It is pretty difficult to "store" luxons.

If anything, if they are energy in the scientific definition, it'll be quite impossible to get the mana to coalesce into anything remotely physical looking.

Besides, if they are really energy and you can't get it externally, you'll have to wind up annihilating part of your body to get energy, so that's not much of a solution there either.

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It's an entirely different form of energy, putting aside the maximum speed it can achieve, magic has shown to being able to achieve a large variety of speeds from hovering to fast moving bullets (Vice in 26, if you want an example) therefore,
Yes, and that's the main thing that makes one conclude that whatever magical particles are, they must be massive. Massive particles can have any relative velocity - in theory they can even be tachyons (on the other side of the lightspeed barrier). Massless particles scientifically have one speed - lightspeed. I guess it would admittedly solve the "instant" problem, but I don't thing you can even imagine MGLN with all the beam attacks moving at lightspeed.

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and combined with the large variety of effects it has shown to be able to achieve, (cloaking, healing, damaging, solidifying, flying, shielding, transforming, telepathic communication, jamming, teleporting, changing into a variety of ellements and what have you) it has already shown not to apply to the regular laws that apply to most common forms energy.

In short: It's magic.
Let's see. Cloaking (which is really blocking of LOS - go hide behind something), Healing (look at your body), damaging (your rifle), solidifying (your fridge), flying (plane trip), shielding (which is forcefields, remember we are mostly forcefield anyway), communicating (what is your radio for), transforming (look at your kid, he changes shape every day), jamming (look up EA-6B Prowler) and teleporting (there is such a thing as quantum tunneling and the like ) are all things possible with things made of massive fermions, as long as you aren't greedy about it. Doesn't that make you feel more hopeful?

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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Different principles of acelleration between the typical 'pump'. In this case, packing more fluid in to force fluid on the other end out. Where as a particle accellerator uses magnetic fields to draw the 'magic particle whatevers' in a loop until they reach intended velocity, and are then held there until the loop is opened and they fly clear on their own velcotiy.
Different mechanisms, but similar end effect, moving of particles - given that we don't have real clues about a magical accelerator's mechanisms, only the desired effect, nitpicking about mechanisms seem cheap.

Acceleration itself is a pretty meaningless concept for massless energy, because acceleration implies a change of speed, and energy only has C.

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So if she can fire the energy continuously, what does she need to charge it for? What would she need cartridges to decrease the 'charge cycle' if she can provide a continuous conversion stream for the duration of the shot?
Read about pressurization as mentioned previously. And I don't necessarily think she can fire the beam continuously - certainly she won't fire it all day. but for the 5-6 seconds until beam termination, she can, and the cartridges can easily help her do that.

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Not relevant. With a computer doing the work, the incantation pattern would be near instantanious. The computer on RH is fast enough to have real time active semi-sentience. Mathematical manipulation formulae wouldn't even register as processor loading.
You have real time active full sentience. I'm sure this means that means you are fast enough to handle this simple formulae:

183473790413413704374374032147204^2

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It is clearly a charge cycle as the introduction of cartridges shortens her time to fire. And we are told explicitly that cartridges are compressed magical energy. So we KNOW they provide explicitly an energy boost that cuts the charge time out.
See above.

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Considering my point about cartridges neutralizes your point about beam O war...
Theories are not about "neutralizing". My theory easily accomodates cartridges. Yours choke, which is why you think about neutralizing.

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It really does seem more efficient to throw the ball, which is what I suggest anyway by turning the beam into a bolt. (A bolt's really just a fancy name for a fast moving ball in this case.) The ball is the buster energy, delivered all at once, in a small nasty package.
And the fact that they 1) have small bolts, 2) Divine Buster is not a bolt suggests engineering reasons for why not.

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The point remains to take the energy she wastes delivering to a two meter wide surface over six seconds, and pack it down to a nice bundle of energy and smack the target with it all at once rather than drawn out and very inefficient beam.
That's if you assume that there are no engineering limitations to how much you can compress an attack in time and space, despite problems in containment, maximum energy flows ... etc.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2009-02-03 at 08:49.
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Old 2009-02-03, 08:34   Link #1920
LoweGear
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So basically, Nanoha's magic particles are... GN Particles?

*is shot*
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