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View Poll Results: Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 16 Rating
Perfect 10 180 70.59%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 38 14.90%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 20 7.84%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 1.57%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 0.78%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.39%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.39%
1 out of 10 : Painful 9 3.53%
Voters: 255. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-02-03, 23:30   Link #381
Kaisos Erranon
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I'm out. No point in arguing this anymore.
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Old 2009-02-03, 23:31   Link #382
Leo_Otaku
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Man oh man I could see these sorts of arguments coming

Anyone can have an opinion, if you state one have a damn good reason behind it/defense. As well do it in a way that won't make you look the a moron. Some age differences can also account too.

Nagisa would never get an abortion. She would never do anything like that. Regardless of anything diease or not she wanted to let her child to be born. As stated many, many times over the pregnancy was NOT planned.
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Old 2009-02-03, 23:37   Link #383
Sorrow-K
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I guess part of the problem in this argument between both sides is the lack of information about Nagisa's illness, what were her real chances and such. To me it seems like she still had a good chance of dieing, evne if she was in a hospital.
Well, that's the question, isn't it. There's a lot of doubt about just what Nagisa's chances were, most likely because the story saw it as a secondary issue and didn't really intend for the events that happened in the plot to be an exploration of the choice of abortion for a mother in a situation where childbirth puts her life at risk. The question then is, where does the benefit of the doubt lie? Do you give the benefit of the doubt to Nagisa, who's life is at risk, who's desire is to start a family, and who, we assume, has been exposed to a risk assessment from a doctor and advice from her family and husband and a trained, experience midwife, etc, etc, or do you not give it to Nagisa, because you assume that, independent of circumstances and the choices she made with her how she delivered, her life was still at significant risk. There aren't any obvious indicators, because, like you say, even though were were told her life was at risk, we weren't explicitly told just how big that risk was, so all we can really do is speculate based on what has been implied by the story. I just think Nagisa deserves the benefit of the doubt in this case. Considering what happened, it just seems to me that the story required the worst possible circumstances to happen for her to die... which I see as an indication that, had the worst circumstances not happened, she probably would have lived.
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Old 2009-02-03, 23:39   Link #384
RandomFlameStrike
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Meh well Reckoner is bashing the worth of an unborn child and insulting anyone who risks their lives to save another persons. I'm a little irked at that.

Hm Sorrow's point is pretty good. I for one defitantly gave Nagisa the benefit of the doubt. I assumed that she knew the full risks of what she was getting into and selflessly decided to try and save her child.
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Old 2009-02-03, 23:41   Link #385
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Gentlemen again, egos, tempers, PLEASE.
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Old 2009-02-03, 23:42   Link #386
Ithekro
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50%...in the worst case scenario...which is what she got in the end....she rolled...she died on the roll....she could have just as easily lived.

There are 8 more episodes....who can guess what might happen. Looking at it from a roll of the dice perspective...there could easily be other dice to roll. For Tomoya, Ushio...who knows what twists we may get. There is always a chance.
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Old 2009-02-03, 23:48   Link #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
Considering what happened, it just seems to me that the story required the worst possible circumstances to happen for her to die... which I see as an indication that, had the worst circumstances not happened, she probably would have lived.

EXACTLY. People are focusing too much on Nagisa, and how her decision seemed to be colored and selfish, and NOT focusing on the fact that the situation the Okazakis faced was NOT optimal. It's like facing a DM who's fudging his rolls behind the DM screen.

Also, 50%? I'd quip about the average Eldar armor save, but that's off-topic already.
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Old 2009-02-03, 23:50   Link #388
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Originally Posted by RandomFlameStrike View Post
Meh well Reckoner is bashing the worth of an unborn child and insulting anyone who risks their lives to save another persons. I'm a little irked at that.
Wrong, please reread my posts and clarify yourself. However, if you cannot see that still, I am not bashing the worth of an unborn child, and I am not insulting everyone who risks their life to save another person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
Well, that's the question, isn't it. There's a lot of doubt about just what Nagisa's chances were, most likely because the story saw it as a secondary issue and didn't really intend for the events that happened in the plot to be an exploration of the choice of abortion for a mother in a situation where childbirth puts her life at risk. The question then is, where does the benefit of the doubt lie? Do you give the benefit of the doubt to Nagisa, who's life is at risk, who's desire is to start a family, and who, we assume, has been exposed to a risk assessment from a doctor and advice from her family and husband and a trained, experience midwife, etc, etc, or do you not give it to Nagisa, because you assume that, independent of circumstances and the choices she made with her how she delivered, her life was still at significant risk. There aren't any obvious indicators, because, like you say, even though were were told her life was at risk, we weren't explicitly told just how big that risk was, so all we can really do is speculate based on what has been implied by the story. I just think Nagisa deserves the benefit of the doubt in this case. Considering what happened, it just seems to me that the story required the worst possible circumstances to happen for her to die... which I see as an indication that, had the worst circumstances not happened, she probably would have lived.
Ah, I see at last. I'd give you a cookie if I could, for explaining this side far better than others, who I will not name. Other people have faith in Nagisa's judgment, I do not, and perhaps this is my bias because I have never really liked Nagisa a lot as a character (Though her relationship with Tomoya was interesting). This is the discrepancy, and, well whatever. It does not matter that much to me, I did rate the episode a 9 and I am very excited to see how this series will turn out for the next 8 episodes with this interesting plot twist.
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Old 2009-02-03, 23:54   Link #389
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Other people have faith in Nagisa's judgment, I do not, and perhaps this is my bias because I have never really liked Nagisa a lot as a character (Though her relationship with Tomoya was interesting).
Now it makes sense. In the end it all boils down to bias. If this had happened to a character you DID like, would you have the same reaction? Not implying anything, hence my smiley. ^^;
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Old 2009-02-03, 23:55   Link #390
Kaisos Erranon
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Now it makes sense. In the end it all boils down to bias.
Doesn't it always?
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Old 2009-02-03, 23:57   Link #391
Master Chibi
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Pffft.

I hated her more then anyone (go ahead and try me), but even I'm not happy that she kicked the bucket.

But then I hate the way they go about in bringing things to the table in this show so maybe I just found out where Key is located so I can start sending lots of angry letters.

lol
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Old 2009-02-03, 23:58   Link #392
RandomFlameStrike
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Hm well in the case my anger is misplaced, I apologize for that. But anyway I'll try to clarify my position too.

From my point of view Nagisa's decisions was a good one, and here's why.
1. To Nagisa Ushio is a LIFE to be saved.
2. Naigsa doesn't want to hold Ushio at fault for any of her weaknesses
3. Naigsa knew the risks of what she was getting into. She knew about the power of the bad guys and still wanted to save her.
4. The bad guys unexpectly landed a critical hit and she died.
5. The chance of a safe birth was higher then the chance of her dieing
6. It's not stupid or foolish to try your best and risk your life to save another person.
7. I see Nagisa's decsion to go on with the birth as equivlent to her trying to risk her life to save anothers (Which is why I was so annoyed when you called her stupid)
Bah I'm just repeating the same arguments over and over, but I don't see Reckoner giving me a clear answer either. Well I think I pretty much missed his point too and I'm not sure if he got mine >< Anyway the bottem line is, can you really call Nagisa, or anyone, stupid/foolish for risking their life to save someone they love? And with good odds too?
Hm I think part of your point is that she wasn't risking her life to save another ones(?). But part of what I'm trying to convience you of is that to her it WAS like that, and you can't really say "No it wasn't". Well forgive me if I am wrong.
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Old 2009-02-03, 23:59   Link #393
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Pffft.

I hated her more then anyone (go ahead and try me), but even I'm not happy that she kicked the bucket.

But then I hate the way they go about in bringing things to the table in this show so maybe I just found out where Key is located so I can start sending lots of angry letters.

lol
Play the game. It's loads better. Probably because the pacing is about 117% slower.
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Old 2009-02-04, 00:02   Link #394
Ithekro
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Bias leads to Shipping. Shipping leads to Disappointment. Disappointment leads to RAGE. RAGE, leads to Banning.
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Old 2009-02-04, 00:04   Link #395
Kaisos Erranon
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Bias leads to Shipping. Shipping leads to Disappointment. Disappointment leads to RAGE. RAGE, leads to Banning.
The Gospel Truth of Anime. Right here.
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Old 2009-02-04, 00:04   Link #396
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Well in this case it would be more like Shipping leading to conflict, which leads to RAGE, which leads to banning. XD
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Old 2009-02-04, 00:06   Link #397
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The Cheating DM analogy still holds in the situation in the second half, I say. There are just situations where you just can't get any break. You can be an epic-level character, and still be screwed if your DM strangely keeps on rolling 20s for his Vorpal Weapons...

The DM, in this case, is Key.
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Old 2009-02-04, 00:06   Link #398
Ithekro
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Originally I had anger...but all I could think of was disappointment in its place. Conflict works I suppose.
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Old 2009-02-04, 00:06   Link #399
Kaisos Erranon
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Well in this case it would be more like Shipping leading to conflict, which leads to RAGE, which leads to banning. XD
I'm honestly scared at the possible reaction for the ending of Toradora right now... but that's off topic.


...


So, I wonder what's going to happen to Tomoya now?
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Old 2009-02-04, 00:09   Link #400
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From the looks of the preview, he's going to end up a stupid emo bumb that needs to get punched, but hey considering what happend I can't really blame him. I hope he gets his act together sooner rather then later though.
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