AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Macross

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-02-09, 02:28   Link #201
BetoJR
D-d-don't look!!!
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fortaleza-CE, Brazil
Age: 37
Thanks, Westlo, for taking the words right out of my... word processor?
That's quite how I feel about the two main females in Macross Plus, myself.

And Voices is one of my favorite pieces of music, ever. Even the english version...
__________________
It's always a great time to immerse yourself in Deculture love!
All hail the Empress!!!

BetoJR is offline  
Old 2009-02-09, 02:36   Link #202
Urei
Star Designer
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Europe
Age: 29
Yes, Voices fit the climate of the series well. I agree about Guld too. Plus is a great series. It's also the only one where I don't really care about any particular character.
__________________

AD 2314 Mobile Suit Gundam 00
~A wakening of the Trailblazer~

Urei is offline  
Old 2009-02-09, 02:47   Link #203
Westlo
Lets be reality
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
One of the reasons why I was never really impressed by Aimo (though I love the episode 10 remix version) is because it came off as Voices-lite and vastly inferior.

And yeah Plus is awesome, best fights, music (Information High!) and Isamu is my fav male lead in the franchise easily. Movie version superior, OVA version inferior! If the Frontier Movie can give me an fight to surpass the city fight between Isamu and Guld I won't care if Kawamori draws the triangle again.
Westlo is offline  
Old 2009-02-09, 02:56   Link #204
Urei
Star Designer
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Europe
Age: 29
Well, I thought so too at the start. Aimo was very similar to Voices although I changed my opinion with time. It's a good song although used way too many times. If only they added a Sheryl version to the equation I'd be more then happy.

The thing about Plus I never really managed to make myself like was the fact that the world seemed very cold and small. I always treated it as something not really Macross'ish. That's my opinion though.
__________________

AD 2314 Mobile Suit Gundam 00
~A wakening of the Trailblazer~

Urei is offline  
Old 2009-12-02, 18:39   Link #205
TwilightHack
~ Madoka = Win ~
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
*Do not read unless you wish to be spoiled about the Macross Frontier (TV)
*Do not click links unless you wish to read about the movie.


It's amazing how a simple set, or phrasing, of words can inspire such fervor amongst certain people who clearly could not see the context of my two posts. Yes I am an AxS supporter, but that has not clouded my ability to look at things from every angle and make inferences from facts, not opinions.

If you question my integrity and ability to not be blinded in bias, I suggest you look at my post history concerning Macross romance. It'll be quite enlightening.

In my first post here, you will see that the first half of my post is entirely how I support the idea of the new Ranka. I praise Kawamori as a genius by strengthening Ranka's background and giving her a solid base to work off of. I was always troubled by TV Ranka's personality and her need to insert herself into Alto's life.

Was my support for Ranka lost to the masses during translation?

Now in the second half of the first post I made the statement that brought AxR fans to arms, I said AxS was canon and included the ire raising phrase "we all".

To address the first issue, I stand by what I said. By all logic AxS was canon at the end and Sheryl did have the upper hand.

By all logic I mean the fact that AxS was developed far more than AxR had ever been. More emotional moments, more physical contact, more heart to heart conversations... Ranka had so little in comparison. In addition, there were many more homages paid to past Macross series through AxS as opposed to AxR. Even within the series itself, parallels were drawn to reflect AxS (Ozma x Kathy).

Thus, by logic, in a triangle that had no clear ending, canon goes to the girl who received the most development in relation to the main love interest. In this case, that girl is Sheryl and the love interest is Alto. And so we have AxS canon in the TV series.

Now I should also add that if one decides that the triangle should remain unresolved, by all means it is their right. But denial of the obvious facts from the TV show and refusing to believe that Sheryl did NOT have the upper hand at the end of the series is what it is, denial.

In reference of the movie, I do not believe it should affect the opinion on the TV show outcome because it is a retelling rather than a conclusion. It's in the same boat as regarding DYRL Minmei a class apart from TV Minmei, they're different.

Now in this I have already addressed the main point of my second post which also addresses the second issue in my first post, the wording "we all". My second post can be found here, it is an expansion of the idea of "we all".

As I said there, "we all" watched the same show. And so the word "we all" was properly used within my first post. To justify my usage of "we all", I draw my findings not from within myself, but from what is laid out before me, the facts, the truth. We cannot escape the truth.

Do not try to slight my choice of wording because of your own inability to see things the way they are.
__________________

in the shadows i lurk... but nevertheless there i am...

Last edited by TwilightHack; 2009-12-02 at 18:52.
TwilightHack is offline  
Old 2009-12-02, 18:50   Link #206
Foreshadow
Nyaa~
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Age: 26
"We all" Generally refers to the majority because it's pretty hard to get everybody .

Now it's time to sit back and wait for the second Movie to come out.
Foreshadow is offline  
Old 2009-12-02, 18:57   Link #207
TwilightHack
~ Madoka = Win ~
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
"We all" Generally refers to the majority because it's pretty hard to get everybody .

Now it's time to sit back and wait for the second Movie to come out.
"We all" in this sense refers to all who have watched Macross Frontier. Those who don't agree with most of what I stated above probably haven't watched the same show, or just missed a lot of important points concerning the triangle.

But I agree entirely, it's definitely time to sit back and wait for the next movie.

And oh, I'm having a blast right now. Don't mistake me for being over serious because I enjoy reading how people respond.
__________________

in the shadows i lurk... but nevertheless there i am...
TwilightHack is offline  
Old 2009-12-02, 19:24   Link #208
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
<dusts off venerable thread>

You know, I personally totally agree with your assessment of the ending of the series and I even go a step further and say that there is no way in hell that Macross TV Ranka has a shot at ending up with Alto, barring completely OOC actions by all three protagonists.

However, I put qualifiers on your "we all" statement, because there clearly are people who still cling to their beliefs that Ranka had the same chances as Sheryl at the end ( although nobody ever managed to rebut the point that Ranka, as per her own personality, would not be able to interpose herself between Sheryl and Alto ).

Also, there are some people from our camp who view the ending as pretty open. Therefore "we all" is, sadly, not accurate from a 100% factual point of view.

Although your overall point, that S x A is pretty much canon from everything which happened up to the end, is absolutely correct. There was no magic reset button at the end, Ranka was away for most of the last episodes and left without ever having firmed up the tenuos romantic connection she was developing with Alto in the middle of the series. At the contrary, that very connection was petering out before she went away.
__________________
magnuskn is online now  
Old 2009-12-02, 20:26   Link #209
raile
<3
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Lala rainbow land~
But Alto and Ranka were pining for each other while she was away~! *bats eyelashes* (It's a common statement I've heard over the course of the months btw).

Sorry, magnus, I could not resist.
To make it up:
__________________
raile is offline  
Old 2009-12-02, 21:00   Link #210
DeX-kun
Alto x Ranka :)
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York City
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwilightHack View Post
Spoiler for Long Post:
Say what you will, I still see it as being inconsiderate of others. I'm not trying to be offensive in any way just in case you're taking my posts in that sense, but you're forgetting one important factor. And that's interpretation. What we see in the series might be fact but it won't make another person's interpretation any less truer than yours (i.e - Unless the subtleties are obvious in the way they were intended.) In my case, I've argued otherwise with some pretty plausible scenarios which I still won't agree with what you seem to be calling the "truth" or "fact." So unless Kawamori states outright how each controversial scene was intended, I'll have to disagree with what you seem to be calling the truth.

That's the beauty of a story for writers, they'll lay out scenes where it's obvious in what way they were meant to be interpreted but there are always cases where they purposely leave certain moments ambiguous. Macross Frontier contains exactly that, an ambiguous ending which leaves the audience with different ways of interpreting it.

Me and Magnus actually had a pretty interesting conversation (a calm one at that.) Of course we didn't reach a consensus but we were very open-minded with one another and let our opinions be heard (well seen in this case ) Either way, if you're interested in reading this conversation then be my guest. It all started with this post:

Conversation with Magnus

Quote:
Originally Posted by raile View Post
But Alto and Ranka were pining for each other while she was away~! *bats eyelashes* (It's a common statement I've heard over the course of the months btw).
But...but, they were *looks at raile with wide shiny eyes*
__________________

"Aishiteru ~ I Love You"
DeX-kun is offline  
Old 2009-12-02, 22:14   Link #211
Foreshadow
Nyaa~
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
That's the beauty of a story for writers, they'll lay out scenes where it's obvious in what way they were meant to be interpreted but there are always cases where they purposely leave certain moments ambiguous. Macross Frontier contains exactly that, an ambiguous ending which leaves the audience with different ways of interpreting it.
Now, saying it is canon may be pushing it alittle bit, but Sheryl did have the advantage at the end of the series.

Why? it's as simple as the scene in Ep 24. I didn't see anything that could rival the scene in terms of intimacy with Ranka in the final episode (and if anybody did... well thats stretching it a little bit). As a matter of fact, neither of the relationships were developed in 25. Leaving 24 as the latest development.

Remember- What comes first isn't that important. What comes last is the most important.

I will add this though: neither of the pairings are in concrete.

We have the movie as the closest thing (if they do solidly end it).

Last edited by Foreshadow; 2009-12-02 at 22:25.
Foreshadow is offline  
Old 2009-12-02, 22:39   Link #212
DeX-kun
Alto x Ranka :)
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York City
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
Now, saying it is canon may be pushing it alittle bit, but Sheryl did have the advantage at the end of the series.

Why? it's as simple as the scene in Ep 24. I didn't see anything that could rival the scene in terms of intimacy with Ranka in the final episode (and if anybody did... well thats stretching it a little bit). As a matter of fact, neither of the relationships were developed in 25. Leaving 24 as the latest development.

Remember- What comes first isn't that important. What comes last is the most important.

I will add this though: neither of the pairings are in concrete.

We have the movie as the closest thing (if they do solidly end it).
What I put in bold is the point that I was trying to get across, that's all
__________________

"Aishiteru ~ I Love You"
DeX-kun is offline  
Old 2009-12-02, 23:33   Link #213
raile
<3
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Lala rainbow land~
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
But...but, they were *looks at raile with wide shiny eyes*
*smacks DeX* That same look on my friends, family, bf and pet doesn't even tug one heart string of mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
Why? it's as simple as the scene in Ep 24. I didn't see anything that could rival the scene in terms of intimacy with Ranka in the final episode (and if anybody did... well thats stretching it a little bit). As a matter of fact, neither of the relationships were developed in 25. Leaving 24 as the latest development.
Yeah, I gotta agree with this. 24 was where we really got some development (the last if I should say so) because the final episode, as awesome as it was....
__________________
raile is offline  
Old 2009-12-03, 04:23   Link #214
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Could anyone point me to a scene where Alto is pining for Ranka during her absence? Vowing to bomb her in the face if necessary does not count. And the one in Nanases sick room neither, because that was the lead up to Alto declaring his intention to bomb Ranka in the face.

And although 24 is, of course, the culmination of the romantic development ( although the salute in 25 is a pretty direct homage to DYRL, as we all know ), it is not alone what made me sure that Sheryl X Alto is canon. It is the development both of them got since series start, which was consistent and moved forward constantly up until the very end.

Alto x Ranka was really developed in about 20% of the series, when both sides seemed to have an interest. The other 80% it was a one-sided crush by Ranka, and the 20% were not at the end of the show.

And, as said before, there was no reset button at the end. "You are both my wings" doesn't mean that he wants to romance them both, but that they are both his inspirations. Sheryl for his determination to take his fate in his own hands and Ranka for his motivation what to do with his life ( be a protector ). Or at least his excuse to join SMS.

Very importantly, while Ranka was his initial motivation to be a "protector", in the end he grew beyond her, to encompass his whole home, and therefore everyone on Frontier.
__________________

Last edited by magnuskn; 2009-12-03 at 05:24. Reason: "to be", not "tobe"
magnuskn is online now  
Old 2009-12-03, 16:27   Link #215
TwilightHack
~ Madoka = Win ~
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
It may seem like I'm being inconsiderate. But...

Truth Hurts.

Concrete or not, at the end (or lack thereof) AxS had the upper hand and thus AxS.

--

To be sure, I've never been opposed to AxR. In addition, on several different occasions I've done my best to ship AxR by donning my best AxR goggles and arguing against AxS within sound reason (I don't do rapid ships and delusion). Unfortunately on each occasion to ship and pioneer the AxR idea, I lost.

If you question where I really did ship AxR or not, ask Natsu. She didn't believe I could do it, but I did and did it well before I was beat down.

It was through my shipping of AxR that I was able to understand its strengths, but also its weaknesses when compared to AxS.
__________________

in the shadows i lurk... but nevertheless there i am...

Last edited by TwilightHack; 2009-12-03 at 16:52.
TwilightHack is offline  
Old 2009-12-03, 17:04   Link #216
Bri
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
I think it's closer to the truth to say that ALto had no real romantic interest in either girl, he is way to preoccupied with feeling sorry for himself.

He pretty much uses them as an excuse to stay out of the family bussiness while pining for his dead mum. In fairness the only time he seemed really worked up about Sheryl was when she was sick and dressed up in his dead mom's kimono. Making me think he has a rather unhealthy mommy complex...

So my guess it's going to be AltoxValkyrie and we should check the damned thing if there if there is no "made by NERV" written on it somewhere.
Bri is offline  
Old 2009-12-03, 17:42   Link #217
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
I think it's closer to the truth to say that ALto had no real romantic interest in either girl, he is way to preoccupied with feeling sorry for himself.

He pretty much uses them as an excuse to stay out of the family bussiness while pining for his dead mum. In fairness the only time he seemed really worked up about Sheryl was when she was sick and dressed up in his dead mom's kimono. Making me think he has a rather unhealthy mommy complex...

So my guess it's going to be AltoxValkyrie and we should check the damned thing if there if there is no "made by NERV" written on it somewhere.
Um, what? Alto is one of the protagonists with the least hang-ups in the history of well-characterized mecha protagonists. His time agonizing about his "painful past" is kept to the bare minimum to convey to the viewers that he had legitimate reasons for running out on his father.

Alto actually is one of those people who actually does something about his problems and the problems of others. He cares about his friends and his home.

And how you can see no romantic interest in Sheryl is beyond me. Ranka... well, he cares a lot about her, but in a platonic way.
__________________
magnuskn is online now  
Old 2009-12-03, 18:43   Link #218
Bri
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Alto actually is one of those people who actually does something about his problems and the problems of others. He cares about his friends and his home.

And how you can see no romantic interest in Sheryl is beyond me. Ranka... well, he cares a lot about her, but in a platonic way.
I see that differently, to me Alto is a pure narcissistic character. When he is in "protector mode" he is just acting and his brother sees straight through that facade. I think there is much truth in his final statement that the girls are his inspiration, his muse as an artist. But I don't see any romantic motives in there.

For me the Ozma Lee and Cathy Glass relationship was better developed and more intergrated in the main plotline. The main triangle was often just a separate high school anime romance story. Nakamura had a better character in Tomoya to explore that angle. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy Frontier, but when I see the main trio I feel it's a step backward from the original SDFM triangle.
Bri is offline  
Old 2009-12-03, 18:57   Link #219
DeX-kun
Alto x Ranka :)
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York City
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
For me the Ozma Lee and Cathy Glass relationship was better developed and more intergrated in the main plotline. The main triangle was often just a separate high school anime romance story. Nakamura had a better character in Tomoya to explore that angle. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy Frontier, but when I see the main trio I feel it's a step backward from the original SDFM triangle.
Or even the Michael and Klan relationship. As tragic as this pairing was, I felt it was a very endearing story between these 2.
__________________

"Aishiteru ~ I Love You"
DeX-kun is offline  
Old 2009-12-03, 19:05   Link #220
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
I see that differently, to me Alto is a pure narcissistic character.
WHAT? This is an absurd statement. Did you miss that part where he gets deeply upset at not being able to help others? Which happened multiple times in the show?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
When he is in "protector mode" he is just acting and his brother sees straight through that facade.
Oh, please. Yasaburo is about the most biased guy in the whole show, who sees everything through "must-get-Alto-back-on-stage" colored glasses. He was even pwned by Altos father, who himself in the end comprehended and accepted that for Alto flying was his destiny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
I think there is much truth in his final statement that the girls are his inspiration, his muse as an artist. But I don't see any romantic motives in there.
Well, there obviously is a perception problem somewhere, then. Because I can't agree even 1% with your opinion.
__________________
magnuskn is online now  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 17:17.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.