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Old 2009-02-10, 16:44   Link #1261
cerrian
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And here I would like to clear something up, because I've actually been asked in private msgs.

Crusader and Tak are two different individuals. He is a cool person and might even be my long lost relative, although he must share my loathing for Bavarians, and must know a dog named Prince William.

That is all.

- Tak
LIES! You can't fool us you war mongering rabid Sheryl-shipper you!

Actually, I think Crusader gives way too much credit to Kawamori + gang regarding Ranka's character development and their "social commentary". I'm of the position that the production team simply screwed up by boxing themselves in with a loli moe-blob character in a fairly mature storyline environment and then dropping the ball by not developing said character sufficiently enough. You can only shake your head in wonderment at how much screen time was devoted to Ranka throughout the show and how the scriptwriters squandered it leaving us with a stagnant character.
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Old 2009-02-10, 16:54   Link #1262
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LIES! You can't fool us you war mongering rabid Sheryl-shipper you!

Actually, I think Crusader gives way too much credit to Kawamori + gang regarding Ranka's character development and their "social commentary". I'm of the position that the production team simply screwed up by boxing themselves in with a loli moe-blob character in a fairly mature storyline environment and then dropping the ball by not developing said character sufficiently enough. You can only shake your head in wonderment at how much screen time was devoted to Ranka throughout the show and how the scriptwriters squandered it leaving us with a stagnant character.
Even if you are of this opinion, the fact stands that Ranka is a wonderful deconstruction of how a certain type moe, innocent character would find it nearly impossible to cope with so much responsibility.

It would be pretty ironic if Kawamori and crew didnīt even intend it and would still manage to produce such an impressive result.

In this case Iīd have more ammunition for my case that we have gotten a Sheryl X Alto ending, because if Kawamori can screw up such an important character arc as Rankas, it is pretty clear that he easily could have screwed up his wonderful polygamic triangle dream ending, too.
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Old 2009-02-10, 17:54   Link #1263
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Just rewached some scene at ep 20...tough she didn't speak Ranka was worried about Nanase when she got injured...It was not a simple daze of terror she hesitated and tought about how to help her...perhaps it's an anime(tough an exellent one) so the character's facial expressions maybe misleading but i think that's the case.
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Old 2009-02-10, 18:10   Link #1264
magnuskn
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Just rewached some scene at ep 20...tough she didn't speak Ranka was worried about Nanase when she got injured...It was not a simple daze of terror she hesitated and tought about how to help her...perhaps it's an anime(tough an exellent one) so the character's facial expressions maybe misleading but i think that's the case.
I disagree. Rankas reaction was terrible. Yeah, she looked at the scene in horror. But it was not visible at all that her concern was about Nanase.

She didnīt call out her name, Luca did.

She didnīt say one word about her.

When she was pulled away from the scene by Alto, all she could think about was how warm Altos hand was and about Brera.

And she did not mention Nanase by name even one more time. During the whole four episodes left after ep 21.

If that isnīt a complete failure of empathy, then I donīt know what else constitutes it.
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Old 2009-02-10, 18:20   Link #1265
DeX-kun
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I disagree. Rankas reaction was terrible. Yeah, she looked at the scene in horror. But it was not visible at all that her concern was about Nanase.

She didnīt call out her name, Luca did.

She didnīt say one word about her.

When she was pulled away from the scene by Alto, all she could think about was how warm Altos hand was and about Brera.

And she did not mention Nanase by name even one more time. During the whole four episodes left after ep 21.

If that isnīt a complete failure of empathy, then I donīt know what else constitutes it.
Honestly it could be a state of shock, take into consideration her Dissociative Amnesia and watching the destruction of Frontier while being forced to remember her past that was pretty much the same thing. She was thinking about Alto's warm hand because Brera was the person pulling Ranka to save her, so that scene had a lot to do with Ranka's past and how at that moment she was in shock while remembering her past.
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Old 2009-02-10, 18:29   Link #1266
magnuskn
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Honestly it could be a state of shock, take into consideration her Dissociative Amnesia and watching the destruction of Frontier while being forced to remember her past that was pretty much the same thing. She was thinking about Alto's warm hand because Brera was the person pulling Ranka to save her, so that scene had a lot to do with Ranka's past and how at that moment she was in shock while remembering her past.
So, youīre telling me that she forgot Nanase existed? Well, that must have made for an awkward reunion when she returned to Frontier and Nanase woke up...


Actually, I just remembered that she left a letter for Nanase before leaving. So that exonerates her a bit, although I would have expected a bit more for her best friend over the next four episodes.

Oh, well... I guess when they let go Nanases voice actor, she kinda fell off the board for the creators of the series, too. Still not the best portrayal of best friends for Rankas side. Although from Nanases side it was maybe a bit unhealthily yuri.
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Old 2009-02-10, 18:54   Link #1267
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Even if you are of this opinion, the fact stands that Ranka is a wonderful deconstruction of how a certain type moe, innocent character would find it nearly impossible to cope with so much responsibility.
This is sad, because even most moe-blobs assume responsibility at some point. Before Ranka, I've actually not encountered another character who is so pivotal to the storyline to be called a hero/heroine, yet done so little to actually deserve the title.

Then I think of Ruri Hoshino of Nadesico. She been through a lot more shit than Ranka probably ever will, but she coped with it because she knew hardship and reality won't go away just because you ignore them!

- Tak
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Old 2009-02-10, 18:57   Link #1268
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This is sad, because even most moe-blobs assume responsibility at some point. Before Ranka, I've actually not encounter another character who is so pivotal to the storyline to be called a hero/heroine, yet done so little to actually deserve the title.

Then I think of Ruri Hoshino of Nadesico. She been through a lot more shit than Ranka probably ever will, but she coped with it because she knew hardship and reality won't go away just because you ignore them!

- Tak
Well, I would say to that, that Ruri is completely another character type.

Yeah, yeah, loli, moe, etc. ... but she never had the "ZOMG, SAVE ME!" type of uselessness Ranka never got rid of. Permanent damsel in distress was not her type of character.
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Old 2009-02-10, 19:13   Link #1269
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So, youīre telling me that she forgot Nanase existed? Well, that must have made for an awkward reunion when she returned to Frontier and Nanase woke up...


Actually, I just remembered that she left a letter for Nanase before leaving. So that exonerates her a bit, although I would have expected a bit more for her best friend over the next four episodes.

Oh, well... I guess when they let go Nanases voice actor, she kinda fell off the board for the creators of the series, too. Still not the best portrayal of best friends for Rankas side. Although from Nanases side it was maybe a bit unhealthily yuri.
Man...Nanase is a whole other issue. If I could I would have voted her as one of the worst character of '08.

One of the great ironies of Frontier is that Nanase was suppose to be Ranka's best friend and her greatest supporter. In truth, Nanase actions are overshadowed by those of GARby, Alto, and Beara. As a support charcter, Nanase failed to bring depth to Ranka's character by association and most definintly made no contributions to Ranka's growth and development. The irony of it all is that Sheryl ends up being Ranka's most significant supporter and is one of the two catalysts that forces Ranka's growth.

Nanase's only significant role in Frontier was to become a vegetable which caused our little shota Luca to grow into something of a man. Other than that Nanase really served no purpose in Frontier.
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Old 2009-02-10, 19:26   Link #1270
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Hey, she took care of Ai-kun while Ranka went to Gallia IV :P

Btw. Nanase > Sheryl > Ranka in terms of "boob" factor
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Old 2009-02-10, 19:32   Link #1271
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Gah, I hated Nanase. In fact, I disliked her way more than Ranka. I was very glad she became a vegetable for those last couple of episodes. I can't blame Ranka for forgetting her. lol.

Though in all seriousness I do think people are being a bit harsh with Ranka as far as the Nanase thing goes.
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Old 2009-02-10, 19:43   Link #1272
Father Hentai
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I don' t think that Ranka has forgotten her but more her memories of her past and her gaga emotions for Alto are planned to overshade the last episodes. The evidence that she still entrusts to Nanase is the letter she left behind.
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Old 2009-02-10, 19:46   Link #1273
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Gah, I hated Nanase. In fact, I disliked her way more than Ranka. I was very glad she became a vegetable for those last couple of episodes. I can't blame Ranka for forgetting her. lol.

Though in all seriousness I do think people are being a bit harsh with Ranka as far as the Nanase thing goes.
As I said, they didnīt even use her voice actress after she got into her coma. So she clearly wasnīt important for anything at that point.


As far as being harsh on Ranka... if this had been an isolated incident, I could also go with her being in shock, etc. But the problem we got with that, is that this was only one sympton of a larger pattern of callous behaviour on part of Ranka.

In her myopic focus on Alto, she tossed aside her adoptive brother, Nanase, Sheryl, and the people of Frontier who were counting on her.

When Ranka didnīt got what she wanted, her inability to overcome her hurt feelings resulted in thousands of deaths.

And when the time came to (wo)man up to what had happened and at least try to bring some solace to the survivors of the Vajra attack, she chose to run away as far as possible from it.

Not to forget that she actually tried to get Alto to run off with her, weakening Frontiers defense even further, knowing fully well that Brera already was waiting to help her. And let us not fail to acknowledge that a confession at knife point isnīt exactly the height of romance.


Some people will say that she was only a teenager, how could she be expected to cope with all this pressure, etc.

Well, laa dee da, teenager, shmeenager. Alto, Sheryl, Luca and Michael are more or less one year older than her, they cope perfectly fine. This excuse therefore is dismissed and lacks merit.
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Old 2009-02-10, 19:46   Link #1274
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I actually don't care for Nanase, or her relations to Ranka. I will say however, that it was a smart directing move to turn Nanase into a veggie. That must be Ohnogi, kudos to him.

- Tak
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Old 2009-02-10, 19:55   Link #1275
Father Hentai
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In her myopic focus on Alto, she tossed aside her adoptive brother, Nanase, Sheryl, and the people of Frontier who were counting on her.
her adoptive brother? Oh wait. Didn't he go into piracy with 7/10th the original Macross Quarter Crew and therefore made also a defense breach? Funny that we are all looking to the right not knowing what happened on the left.

At this point I can only shake my head that we are all viewing characters from an adult view not accepting all different types of teenage / childs behaviors.
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Old 2009-02-10, 20:02   Link #1276
Tak
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At this point I can only shake my head that we are all viewing characters from an adult view not accepting all different types of teenage behaviors.
Except this is also a work of fiction. A good character development in fiction is one who grows. This is where Ranka failed.

I see uncooperative teenagers on a daily basis, I don't feel like enduring the existence another one in a fictional show that I love.

- Tak
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Old 2009-02-10, 20:03   Link #1277
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her adoptive brother? Oh wait. Didn't he go into piracy with 7/10th the original Macross Quarter Crew and therefore made also a defense breach? Funny that we are all looking to the right not knowing what happened on the left.

At this point I can only shake my head that we are all viewing characters from an adult view not accepting all different types of teenage behaviors.
What you say is completely irrelevant to my argument. If you want to excoriate Ozma, knock yourself silly, he and the SMS crew kind of deserve it, too. His decisions have no bearing on what Ranka did, however.

The crucial difference, though, is that the SMS crew went off on a fact-finding mission to collect information on Grace and her plans.

They had a plan beyond "I will bring Ai-kun back on a complete suicide mission, in the hopes that my singing will pacify the Vajra enough to not kill me". Iīm not saying that the plan of the SMS crew was super-good, but much better than Rankas.
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Old 2009-02-10, 20:32   Link #1278
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What you say is completely irrelevant to my argument. If you want to excoriate Ozma, knock yourself silly, he and the SMS crew kind of deserve it, too. His decisions have no bearing on what Ranka did, however.
I just want to mention it that while we are discussing about Ranka nobody has compared her actions with those of the Macross Crew who went on Piracy. Both left Frontier fleet with their own reasons.


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The crucial difference, though, is that the SMS crew went off on a fact-finding mission to collect information on Grace and her plans.
Not quite completely correct. Grace is part of the puzzle to unravel the puzzle of Leons plot.

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They had a plan beyond "I will bring Ai-kun back on a complete suicide mission, in the hopes that my singing will pacify the Vajra enough to not kill me". Iīm not saying that the plan of the SMS crew was super-good, but much better than Rankas.
Just give you my view of Rankas reasons to leave the fleet:
- Unravel her past which came up through the situations with the Vajra while singing in front of them
- "Hope" to end war between human and vajra in her own way as she has the power to influence them

If you want to have a quote which is more important than reason one moreover reason two. That she brings Ai kun back is a best decision as she already has a connection to the Vajra homeplanet.
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Old 2009-02-10, 20:33   Link #1279
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As I said, they didnīt even use her voice actress after she got into her coma. So she clearly wasnīt important for anything at that point.


As far as being harsh on Ranka... if this had been an isolated incident, I could also go with her being in shock, etc. But the problem we got with that, is that this was only one sympton of a larger pattern of callous behaviour on part of Ranka.

In her myopic focus on Alto, she tossed aside her adoptive brother, Nanase, Sheryl, and the people of Frontier who were counting on her.

When Ranka didnīt got what she wanted, her inability to overcome her hurt feelings resulted in thousands of deaths.

And when the time came to (wo)man up to what had happened and at least try to bring some solace to the survivors of the Vajra attack, she chose to run away as far as possible from it.

Not to forget that she actually tried to get Alto to run off with her, weakening Frontiers defense even further, knowing fully well that Brera already was waiting to help her. And let us not fail to acknowledge that a confession at knife point isnīt exactly the height of romance.


Some people will say that she was only a teenager, how could she be expected to cope with all this pressure, etc.

Well, laa dee da, teenager, shmeenager. Alto, Sheryl, Luca and Michael are more or less one year older than her, they cope perfectly fine. This excuse therefore is dismissed and lacks merit.
The deaths were not her fault, remember that the Vajra came out from Frontier itself and began to kill civilians, so before her song angered the Vajra there were already people dying and although her song angered the Vajra, it's not something she could control.

To be honest, I don't see how you can blame Ranka for not being able to overcome her emotions. After Sheryl slapped her, Ranka tried to get a hold of herself and did try to tame the Vajra, but how can you blame her for the song having the opposite affect? Seriously, you know that emotions wouldn't be emotions if we could control them. Emotions are based off reactions to situations, so Ranka was unable to tame the Vajra because of the emotions she felt at that moment. For example, when you get angry what do you do? You either go blow off some steam or you wait to calm down, well Ranka had no time to calm herself down and was swayed by the present situation. It's not like she intended to anger the Vajra.

Ranka's running away is the result of fear because she had no idea what her singing would do this time around, she sings and then another hoard of Vajra come attacking Frontier. She was afraid of her own power, hence her phrase of "Why me?" Another thing that should be cleared up is that Ranka did not know that Brera would show up, or why would Brera ask her "What is it you desire?" (somewhere along those lines.) Brera was proven to be a stalker and he's constantly stalking Ranka to protect her if need be, and that's why he showed up. Oh but Brera was already in the VF when Ranka confessed so it wasn't at knife point

Ranka's character isn't the greatest and I agree it could have been portrayed a hell of a lot better but it's not as bad as some make it out to be.
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Old 2009-02-10, 20:37   Link #1280
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Dex-kun, the point magnus and the other are arguing is they they defend the point that Ranka could have reduced the casualties because she has the power and therefore the responsibilities for the complete fleet. A point which I really don't share as she is not "mature" enough to that time of the series. But this is where I am talking against walls here.
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