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View Poll Results: Toradora! - Episode 19 Rating
Perfect 10 151 66.23%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 39 17.11%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 19 8.33%
7 out of 10 : Good 10 4.39%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 1.75%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.44%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 4 1.75%
Voters: 228. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-02-13, 16:22   Link #201
Nosauz
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Even if this was more like honey and clover, honey and clover made sense, it was good whereas the comparisons from novel to anime seems that the anime has lost a lot of finese from the novel. Seinen is great, take a look at solanin, my point is the scene could have been executed better especially from what has been discussed from the novels. Atleast from what I have gleaned from what people are talking about in the novels, ryuuji has an actually shift in philosphy which makes sense for him to rethink his position in the world and how thinks about the people close to him.
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Old 2009-02-13, 16:34   Link #202
Maciste
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Thanks Kaisos Erranon
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Old 2009-02-13, 16:41   Link #203
typhonsentra
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Sometimes they needlessly make him less perceptive too. Like in the original he was looking for Taiga at the party and couldn't find her, he realized she wasn't around. before Ami told him she went home. As a matter of fact that entire scene was completely different.
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Old 2009-02-13, 16:43   Link #204
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The anime will inevitably suffer in comparison with the mental imagery of the novels simply because a decision was made up front to do this series in only 25 episodes to cover 10 volumes. The compression alone means a lot of subtlety or nuance will get lost.

So there are two ways of looking at it:
1) did the adaptation capture the flavor of the story (even if it is an executive summary)? Given the way the arcs have flowed, its generally a mistake to judge too early.
2) as a stand-alone storytelling effort, does the series tell an interesting and compelling story, in which the characters develop believably and make decisions based on the information they have? Or do they jerk along to some invisible force that shoves them from point to point (a sign of amateurish writing).

I imagine if you compare H&C to its written roots, you might think "a lot of finesse" was lost there also.

Since there really isn't an internal narrative - we have to work with what the characters say (or mutter) - we don't hear thoughts ... that is a major difference from the novels.
It may be that the shift and rethink Nosauz and others are referring to might be written into the next episode or even later -- they have reworked the timeline slightly already a few times in the series to deal with the needs of compression or the demands of the visual medium. If it is never portrayed in any way or form, then yes, that would be a failure of adaptation. Whether that weakens the anime itself on its own depends on how the rest of the series plays out.

My own minor complaint so far is Ryuuji got smudged in the leap from print to the screen. He's even more interesting and hilarious and realistic in the novels. Perhaps the manga will capture that better.
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Old 2009-02-13, 16:46   Link #205
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So, the lesson here: Try not to fall in love with the same person as your best friend. It'll just cause pain on both sides :P
Mankind is failing at this from the very start though....

epic episode... 11/10
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Old 2009-02-13, 17:01   Link #206
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My own minor complaint so far is Ryuuji got smudged in the leap from print to the screen. He's even more interesting and hilarious and realistic in the novels. Perhaps the manga will capture that better.
He still gets very little development as a character up until this arc though, really.

Only other time I can think of is the Vol. 5 arc...


You tend to swing one way or the other, in anime-based mediums. Either the protagonist gets the most development or the other characters (usually all female) do.
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Old 2009-02-13, 17:07   Link #207
crystalalien87
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yes i must agree i adored this episode...it was very surprising to see how things turned out and now the real heart ache start...
i want to say first of all i had always thought that ryuuji would realize he liked taiga before she did. cuz from what i hear from the novel...
Spoiler for Novel:

but this episode flipped the entire scene... I honestly think she loves him at this point and now he is about to make a difficult decision. especially after being rejected by minorin... i always had this feeling that ryuuji was the rebound but im starting to think taiga is... I think Taiga and kitamura's relationship was more of a huge crush and taiga's/ryuuji relationship was a love being built from the bottom up...without either of them actually noticing it...
i actually watched the crying scene twice just to make sure my eyes were not playing tricks on me lol...
but overall im starting to really enjoy this series even more and not i cant wait to see how taiga reacts towards ryuuji now...and vise versa especially since he is going to mad/depressed for a few episodes. also how will minorin act towards them both...since she now knows the truth that taiga loves ryuuji
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Old 2009-02-13, 17:12   Link #208
stormy001_M1A2
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You know what, people?

3 main girls of this series are the loneliest girls. The scene of Taiga and Santa supposed to be happy but one look further and realized just how lonely she is. Ami is on her own, hanging on and Minorin revealed to be just as lonely as the other 2.
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Old 2009-02-13, 18:05   Link #209
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yeah, there's quite a streak of loneliness that runs through this tale despite the close friendships. I often wonder if its a bit of a critique of modern japanese society.
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Old 2009-02-13, 18:09   Link #210
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Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2 View Post
You know what, people?

3 main girls of this series are the loneliest girls. The scene of Taiga and Santa supposed to be happy but one look further and realized just how lonely she is. Ami is on her own, hanging on and Minorin revealed to be just as lonely as the other 2.

Hmmm, yes, but you could think that Ami and Minori has their family, Ami has her job, Minori her club, Taiga really is tje loneliest and for that reason Ryuuji cant helped but stay close to her, feed her, care her and such...

Now... it's really unavoidable stay aside from being really attached one for another, Ryuuji was aware of this a couple of episodes ago and now Taiga realized it now.

What's the bottom line here?... to me is clear... If Taiga doesn't feel "love", she can be happy for her friends, but, when you really think in that you will never be the closest to that person... that hurts a lot... Taiga realized how much she loves Ryuuji, in her own way.

Minori OTOH, she knows better than anyone how lonely is Taiga and how much Ryuuji helps Taiga's heart. So, she thinks in the better outcome, she isn't lonely as Taiga and if Taiga is happy, she could be happy too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
yeah, there's quite a streak of loneliness that runs through this tale despite the close friendships. I often wonder if its a bit of a critique of modern japanese society.
Honestly?, i think that is a critique for the whole world... you can be with a lot of people but feel totally alone.
That's the case of Ami, she could be surrounded by a lot of people, but she is alone. Minori is the same case...
Even Yuri-chan... that's sad, because the people who actually make this kind of novel, manga or anime are in that age... so you can see Yuri-chan, even Ya-chan as projections of the authors.
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Old 2009-02-13, 18:18   Link #211
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The song at the end was...wow.
And ahh. I teared up after Tiaga started crying. so sad...
Really, really, really, really, good episode, I think it was well executed.

Ah I'm still misty-eyed~ D:
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Old 2009-02-13, 18:25   Link #212
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Even Yuri-chan... that's sad, because the people who actually make this kind of novel, manga or anime are in that age... so you can see Yuri-chan, even Ya-chan as projections of the authors.
Yuri-sensei is an self-insert parody of the author herself, IIRC.

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The song at the end was...wow.
I really hated that song for some reason. Probably because I was expecting Orange...
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Old 2009-02-13, 18:33   Link #213
Fran~
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Yuri-sensei is an self-insert parody of the author herself, IIRC.
Some friend who actually lived in Japan told me something like this once: "Japan is the better place to be really alone in the world". You can read author's insert in the book and imagine Yuri-sensei eating that fish that she mentioned as her only worry... sad, really...
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Old 2009-02-13, 18:54   Link #214
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Eh I guess I didn't get that UFO and ghost part. Anyone caring to explain?
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Old 2009-02-13, 19:02   Link #215
Kaisos Erranon
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Eh I guess I didn't get that UFO and ghost part. Anyone caring to explain?
Forget already?

Back at episode 9, the two of them had a conversation where they used UFOs/ghosts as an extended metaphor for love and falling in love.

And now Minori rejects him in the most indirect fashion possible.
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Old 2009-02-13, 19:07   Link #216
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A reference back to the metaphorical way Minorin and Ryuuji approached the idea of a relationship during the beach trip at the villa. She's decided she doesn't want to "see UFOs and ghosts" (with him) because she simply can't stand what would do to Taiga.

Rewatched this episode after reading some of the comments...
1) Taiga was absolutely precious in her "audrey hepburn" homage (see REC eyecatches).
2) Took a minute to recognize Ami with her hair up... Smashing as well.
3) Kihara was "hot" .... a lot happens (or doesn't happen) at the party that is described in the novels (another reason to read them after the series I guess).
4) Kitamura retains his 'batshit crazy' spirit that probably attracts Kihara to him.
5) Some great voice acting here - e.g. Minorin working hard to stay neutral while rejecting Ryuuji. Taiga's strained happyface talk when pushing Ryuuji out the door.
6) The christmas song fits.... if you realize how 'false' is it is right that moment -- at least four of the characters are having a *terrible* christmas at the moment.
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Old 2009-02-13, 19:13   Link #217
Freya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Forget already?

Back at episode 9, the two of them had a conversation where they used UFOs/ghosts as an extended metaphor for love and falling in love.

And now Minori rejects him in the most indirect fashion possible.
Oh.....I get it.

Gayest way of rejecting someone......but really subtle in a way. -_-


Awesome Christmas song!!! But sucks for the characters.
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Old 2009-02-13, 19:15   Link #218
Vexx
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Actually its a very Japanese way..... non-confrontational and oblique.

On other notes... I'll wager the anime adaptation will portray Ryuuji's recalculation of the world around him a bit later perhaps in the next episode while he has time to think about things.
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Old 2009-02-13, 19:16   Link #219
Kaisos Erranon
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6) The christmas song fits.... if you realize how 'false' is it is right that moment -- at least four of the characters are having a *terrible* christmas at the moment.
I just hate the song. And musical irony doesn't work that well for me, especially if there's lyrics involved. Just my problem.

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Actually its a very Japanese way..... non-confrontational and oblique.
And this is why watching Japanese programming is difficult for many western viewers.
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Old 2009-02-13, 19:17   Link #220
Freya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I just hate the song. And musical irony doesn't work that well for me, especially if there's lyrics involved.
Aww I thought the song itself was pretty good.

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Actually its a very Japanese way..... non-confrontational and oblique.
Wha?! Are you serious...? Dang....
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