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View Poll Results: Toradora! - Episode 19 Rating
Perfect 10 151 66.23%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 39 17.11%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 19 8.33%
7 out of 10 : Good 10 4.39%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 1.75%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.44%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 4 1.75%
Voters: 228. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-02-15, 03:17   Link #301
Vexx
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yeah, I'd have to label that *extra* harsh. o.O Everyone in this mess has made mistakes or acted on errant information ... not seeing how anyone in this mess deserves what is happening to them. Taiga is trying to help Minorin but is conflicted and Minorin is trying to help Taiga but is conflicted. Ami wishes she hadn't shown up to the parade so late, wants to help, wants Ryuuji... more conflictedness.
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Old 2009-02-15, 03:17   Link #302
Kafriel
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With the other two, you have a sense of the MinorixRyuuji or AmixRyuuji being more equal than that of TaigaxRyuuji.
When Ami said "I've had enough" does that mean she gave up on him?(because that would leave us with one girl less to worry about and not a bad ending if she's moving on).
As for TaigaxRyuuji, I think they will eventually stay friends, can't say anything about Minori yet.
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Old 2009-02-15, 03:36   Link #303
physics223
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
yeah, I'd have to label that *extra* harsh. o.O Everyone in this mess has made mistakes or acted on errant information ... not seeing how anyone in this mess deserves what is happening to them. Taiga is trying to help Minorin but is conflicted and Minorin is trying to help Taiga but is conflicted. Ami wishes she hadn't shown up to the parade so late, wants to help, wants Ryuuji... more conflictedness.
I'm not blaming anyone from the show, as I've said before. Let's analyze what mistakes Minori, Ami and Ryuuji did.

Minori became emotional when she realized Ryuuji liked her and conflicted because she believed that Taiga also liked Ryuuji. Throughout the series she has been the genki character, except during the latter part where the situation she was in called for gravity. I can't find anything to blame in her other than her (facade of) retardation at times to cope with reality.

Ami was a spoiled princess at the start. Ever since Ryuuji helped her simply be herself, however, she has continually changed for the better. What are her faults, then? She toys with Ryuuji at times yet no one gets harmed. Liking Ryuuji isn't a fault of hers, because liking an exemplary guy isn't a fault of any girl. Trying to be subtle about her feelings isn't a fault of hers: her only fault was that she was late to their friendship and so was relegated to something that couldn't go beyond a status of friendship.

Taiga, however, did a lot of bad, insulting things to Ryuuji and spoke a lot of insulting words towards him. Despite this, he cared for her deeply and tried his best to pair her up with Kitamura. What was her gratitude? It was to continue to abuse Ryuuji and disrespect even his humanity. Lesser men would have fallen, but luckily Ryuuji is a very kind guy. Sure, she did some kind things for him, but a few disparate and isolated incidents cannot merely efface the consistent abuse that he received from her. If he chooses Minori, and if he ends up with her, she can blame no one but herself. Ryuuji did everything he could to help her. Ryuuji was her pillar and he supported her in her bid for Kitamura. How does she repay what he did?

I ask you that. I blame the coincidence of Minori seeing her bawling in the road (I don't blame Taiga), but because of that outburst she practically destroyed a blooming relationship, despite being unintended. (Again, I don't blame her.)

Even if she was going to be alone, she fully deserved her solitude with her utter disrespect towards Ryuuji. Again, a few isolated situations of kindness CANNOT EFFACE the consistent abuse she imposed on Ryuuji. (Besides, if Minori and him went out, he wouldn't ignore her, but merely treat her as a friend and help her. She still wouldn't be alone, destroying that fallacy of hers.)

That was why I was arguing that Taiga pass through the eye of needle that she must find in a burning haystack, because otherwise I won't be convinced. Ami and Minori are clearly better 'people' than Taiga, and she must transcend her own selfishness and face an intense amount of sacrifice and suffering before I will approve. This is not fairy-tale anime; this is anime based on reality. She must redeem her bitchiness by becoming a transcendent friend, and it will be only then when I will approve.

She must first feel the suffering she imposed on Ryuuji and realize the hurt she spread. It will only be then when the relationship will not be one of dependence, but of Taiga truly exhibiting love.

I hope you get my point.
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Old 2009-02-15, 03:45   Link #304
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by Fweakin View Post
I agree that there is definitely a bias towards Taiga, but that has been blindingly obvious from the get-go. And I certainly agree that the intention of the Taiga-crying scene was to illicit that response from the audience.

But I have to say that a character doesn't necessarily have to be breaking down in tears for their heartbreak to show through. I, for instance, found both Ami and Minorin to tug at my heartstrings more than Taiga. Ami's dropped speaking tones (props to Kitamura Eri) and Minorin pulling her beanie over her eyes spoke more to me that the outwardly blantant show of grief.
How can u tell what they do off screen? Minorin looked like she was going to blub, but not in front of Ryuji...

@ physics - what blooming relationship? It is more then just hooking up to have a relationship. Lets see how Minori dealt with Taiga and Ryuji being so close, she cut herself off from them, but at leasy she had ber baseball to hide away in. Now who put the boot in? Taiga? Ryuji? No it was Ami.

Both Taiga and Minori chose each other over themselves, now just as we can't tell how Minori acts she goes off screen, we can't tell how Taiga acted. She just suffered from a huge revelation of what she really wanted which is why is lost it and ran after Ryuji. Now who she chooses we have to wait and see next episode.

But my conclusion to my question is, imho for Taiga and Minori there can be no real relationship until they can find a way to keep their friendship after hooking up with Ryuji, or if Ryuji becomes the person most important to them and damn the rest of the world.
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Old 2009-02-15, 03:50   Link #305
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@physics223: Well... I think you're seriously overstating the persistence of Taiga's abuse of Ryuuji... it was fading to a mere ritual comedy bit between the two by episode 5 and basically vanishes after that. But that may be part of why we're seeing things a bit differently.

And to use your own words, this anime is more realistic.... such 'tit for tat' transcendence may never completely balance out just like in real life.

You seem to be going out of your way to assign "blame" even as you say you don't blame. "blame" has implications that "the cause of" doesn't. Word loading...
Minorin *chose* her path with the information she had. How she got that information appears to be pure chance. (actually the novel twists it a bit differently so it is less of a 'deux ex machina' but we'll stick to the anime). Why not blame Minorin for being unable to rough it on towards Ryuuji? Why are Taiga's feelings more important to Minorin than her own?

I'm going to assume your view and eventual grade of the series is what you mean by "I approve" because that phrase isn't really coming across the way you might think it is.
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Old 2009-02-15, 03:53   Link #306
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Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
How can u tell what they do off screen? Minorin looked like she was going to blub, but not in front of Ryuji...
Because he has imagination?

Without imagination reading books is nearly impossible. Maybe watching anime you need bit less of it but it still is there, and it is taking part in his Toradora, so how can you say if he is wrong or right?..
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Old 2009-02-15, 03:56   Link #307
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How can u tell what they do off screen? Minorin looked like she was going to blub, but not in front of Ryuji...
I agree........and that's exactly my point. It's not as blatant as an all-out sobbing fit, it's not right in your face but you can tell from the subtler clues that she's just as heartbroken as Taiga. Arguing what the characters do when not on screen is a little silly, and certainly not constructive nor productive.
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Old 2009-02-15, 03:57   Link #308
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I don't know, but I kept watching up to the more recent episodes thinking that 'damn, Ryuuji is a really nice guy.'
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Old 2009-02-15, 04:10   Link #309
physics223
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
@physics223: Well... I think you're seriously overstating the persistence of Taiga's abuse of Ryuuji... it was fading to a mere ritual comedy bit between the two by episode 5 and basically vanishes after that. But that may be part of why we're seeing things a bit differently.

And to use your own words, this anime is more realistic.... such 'tit for tat' transcendence may never completely balance out just like in real life.

You seem to be going out of your way to assign "blame" even as you say you don't blame. "blame" has implications that "the cause of" doesn't. Word loading...
Minorin *chose* her path with the information she had. How she got that information appears to be pure chance. (actually the novel twists it a bit differently so it is less of a 'deux ex machina' but we'll stick to the anime). Why not blame Minorin for being unable to rough it on towards Ryuuji? Why are Taiga's feelings more important to Minorin than her own?

I'm going to assume your view and eventual grade of the series is what you mean by "I approve" because that phrase isn't really coming across the way you might think it is.
I was just re-watching some episodes and her insults really got to me. I'm certain they would get to any other person as well. 'Basically vanishes ... '

Being called dog hasn't really 'vanished.' While I'm sure you take that merely jokingly, I also don't think it 'basically vanished.'

I blame the circumstance, and I blame the author if she couldn't show me Taiga deserves being there. But I don't blame the accidents that led to this current situation.

Why are Taiga's feelings more important to Minorin than her own?

Because she's Taiga's friend. It's been hinted at since the Christmas festival but she always tried putting Taiga first before herself. Friendships can be like that at times.

Don't mistake me, this is currently my no. 2 anime of all time. At the worst it will be number 3. But I hope that Taiga earns my fondness as a viewer, because at this point she's not even my second choice for a happy ending.
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Old 2009-02-15, 04:20   Link #310
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Heh, I'm not attempting to change your view, just want to make sure I understand it. For some, couples that have noisy relationships are annoying or one thinks 'why the hell are they together'. Others find a sense of, hell, not sure how to say it.... it just seems to work for them. I personally have a bit of self-identification with couples like Hazuki+Kouhei or Taiga+Ryuuji(later stage) ... my wife and I can get a bit noisy, rag on each other, and she's oft-heard to call me "buddha-head" (empty headed) but we certainly stand by each other.

And yes, if the author (or the anime writers) fail to demonstrate for you why the plot and the ending should be as it is - then for you they've failed. I know I've certainly raked a few series across the coals for insufficiently connecting the dots to my liking.

I actually understand Minorin least of all the characters.... and its not that I don't follow her motivations, they just don't ring as true to me as, say, Ami or Taiga.
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Old 2009-02-15, 04:22   Link #311
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I didn't think that! I respect you, Vexx. My point was that the author has a lot to do to at least convince me that Taiga should be with Ryuuji, because there are two better choices around, at least, from what I see.
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Old 2009-02-15, 04:41   Link #312
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Originally Posted by physics223 View Post
I'm not blaming anyone from the show, as I've said before. Let's analyze what mistakes Minori, Ami and Ryuuji did.

... (whole quote omitted due to length)

I hope you get my point.
I know your post wasn't directed at me, but I wanted to comment anyway.

I understand your reasoning, and taking their actions at face value, it is hard to see the good Taiga was (or was trying) to do in a lot of her actions. Yes, when they first met she was fairly abusive to Ryuuji - in general not treating him very nicely or fairly. However, as early as the end of episode 2 she started doing things (even if not very frequently) that placed his feelings on a matter that was important to both of them above her own.

In my opinion, she has not done anything that I would consider treating Ryuuji badly since before the summer at Ami's villa arc, yet she has shown on more than a few occasions (again, even if it's not a constant showing) that she's willing to put his feelings above her own.

I don't feel that Ami's originally two faced "princess" personality is as justifiable as a lot of people that watch the show seem to feel. She was completely self centered and didn't even bother giving anybody a chance to get to know her, it had to be forced upon her. Yes, she has changed for the better in a lot of ways, but even for a while after the arc introducing her (I'd say up until school festival arc) she maintained a bad attitude in a lot of situations. I'd also like to point out that at the end of episode 8, Taiga was the one that went back to help Ryuuji who could have drowned after getting hit despite not even really knowing how to swim herself, whilst Ami just finished the race.

All that said, I want to say again that I think Ami has changed for the better, and the advice she's been giving Ryuuji shows her concern for the well being of her group of friends, even if he (unfortunately) doesn't always understand it right away...or at all.

As far as Minori goes, I don't think we've really seen enough development of her to determine what her true feelings are. However, from the start she seemed to accept Taiga and Ryuuji as a couple (even though they weren't one) without any hesitation. It is obvious that she likes Ryuuji as well now to come extent, but she also isn't nearly as attached to him as Taiga is. All the moments and time Ryuuji and Minori have shared can't be enough even now to call what they feel for each other more than a crush, whereas Taiga's feelings for Ryuuji are clearly beyond that.

I'm not saying I think it wasn't hard for Minori to do what she did, but I think she would feel even worse if she took Ryuuji away from Taiga. Why is this, then, if she knows that Ryuuji likes her as well? The only logical explanation I can come up with is that she cares about Taiga and her friendship that much more. By prioritizing Taiga like that, it shows that while her other actions in the recent episodes have indicated that she likes Ryuuji too, it's not to the point where it will upset her for a long term (keywords: long term). At the very least, it wouldn't upset her more than her alternatives would anyway, which all points to her feelings for Ryuuji not being as strong. Again, this makes sense to me because they (Ryuuji and Minori) haven't shared nearly as much to have such real feelings for each other at this point. The fact that Minori also answered Ryuuji the way she during the first "UFO" scene makes makes it seem that her feelings for him aren't very strong at all, at least not at that point. I do realize that it could also be argued that she already thought Taiga liked Ryuuji at that point, so she was hiding her feelings, I just have the opinion that this was not the case.

Lastly, I'd just like to say that I think out of the three of them, Taiga has done a lot more for Ryuuji than the others. In the beginning, she took the fall for both of them when they were stereotyped as "delinquents" at the same time as informing everybody that her and Ryuuji were not a couple. She also took the time especially to make sure that Minori understood it for his sake (even though she apparently didn't believe it). She's helped Ryuuji attempt to get closer to Minori in more instances than he has helped her with Kitamura. She gave up winning the race against Ami to help Ryuuji who had been knocked unconcious when she really wanted to win (for numerous reasons, but it was implied her largest motivation for winning at that point was to stay with Ryuuji rather than him going with Ami). She gave her father another chance even though she didn't want to because Ryuuji wanted her to, knowing that it would likely end in herself getting hurt again, and the list goes on.

Because of all this, I feel like Taiga has more than made up for how badly she treated Ryuuji when they first met. I don't think the amount of abuse she gave him is nearly as much as you make it out to be, and I also think you aren't giving her enough credit for the incredible selflessness she has shown. Even though it wasn't a consistant selflessness, it showed on more than a few occasions, and most of them were involving things that mattered deeply to her. One phrase that I think about a lot when watching Taiga is "Your actions speak louder than your words." When you think about what Taiga says to Ryuuji (things that could be considered abusive), and the way she actually acts towards him, you see two VERY different things, especially earlier on in the show.

So to conclude, I understand your points, and I know I probably won't be able to change your opinion (or the opinions of anybody that happen to share yours or have similar opinions of their own), but this is how I view the feelings and actions of the three main females of the show up to this point. I really like all the characters, but I think that Taiga and Ryuuji have a connection that the others just don't have. One could be formed, sure, but as of now this is not the case. Both Ryuuji and Taiga have shown more self-sacrificial moments for the other throughout the entire course of the show than any of the other characters have shown for each other (or Ryuuji and Taiga). Granted they've all done it on more than one occasion (except maybe Kitamura, I'd have to think harder about that), it's just that Taiga and Ryuuji have shown it in the greatest amounts, and also when it comes to things that are on a higher level of importance to them.

Sorry for the rather large amount of text, but I didn't feel like my opinions on this were something I could convey in just a few paragraphs. I enjoy reading the insight everybody else has on this series so far, even those who have opinions that differ largely from mine.
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Old 2009-02-15, 06:34   Link #313
physics223
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Mangz:

I rewrote and attempted to improve my argument in my blog here. Please feel free to write long statements there, as I also enjoy entertaining opinions different from mine. I thought that was pertinent so as to prevent clutter; besides, it's only going to be ourselves who'll read each other's posts.

By the way, I read your reply: point taken. But I expanded my argument and I hope you add to yours. Let's converse in my blog: there's even lesser limitations for words in there. Thank you.
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Old 2009-02-15, 08:34   Link #314
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So I watched this episode after Clannad AS episode 18, as I usually pair up both shows since I follow both like a religious zealot. However, rather than perk me up, it just pushed me further down the road of personal introspection.

Anyway, my take on this discussion.

----------------

What makes Taiga for me for me stand at amongst a whole slew of characters of a similar character build (Tsundere, but not really so much of that) is that unlike the others, we are given some insight and backstory that givs some weight as to why her personality is as such and why she acts that way to Yuuji to some degree. Now I personally don't think she's Tsundere as most people seem to say she is, but she does share some similar traits, but as a whole she's more different than that.

Taiga is a very, very, very, really really flawed character. Even if her traits are similar to many other characters of the same archetype, she isn't like that for some default reason of by some completely sadistic personality disorder. She has a bit more backstory from what I've seen in the series (and purely the series, never read the original material), and backs it up with consistent action and language. Granted the past 2 episodes are a bit of a deviation, but she does state some plausible reasons for suddenly being nice which is a polar opposite expectation to how she would be acting even though it's Xmas, again pointing out her own inner conflicts in terms of how she "genuinely" treats other people. She's already selective enough as it is.

Her violent and anti-social attitude is perhaps deeply rooted in her anger towards her father and towards a feeling of betrayel she gets from people she'd have thought really cared about her. Even if people truly cared, with the exception on Minorin, she still acts the way she is.

From a Psychiatric POV this is a typical defensive technique to shield oneself from hurt and harm by being unapproachable and eccentric. At the same time these people are also the ones crying out loud for someone to love them, but their defensive stanced prevent them from reaching this.

Taiga is almost a classic example of this. I would know, I used to be like her.

@physics223

I think one of the reasons why she acts like a bitch towards Yuuji is that Yuuji, to some extent, acts like sort of a "father figure" type to Taiga. Yuuji is genuinely a caring and loving person, one of the very few genuinely real anime characters of that type I've seen in recent years. That said, we all know of Taiga's history with her father. She hates the bastard for understandable reasons. I doubt she truly understands to have a caring male figure, most likely having had an absent or irresponsible father most of her life. She treats him like crap, rightfully so, and doesn't perhaps truly understand what it means to have someone "caring" over her.

I'd think she had spent most of her life looking out for herself. Besides Minorin anyway, she's never had a an adult figure and someone to truly rely on. Remember how she laments that she fears she'll never have someone care over her, thinking that the men in her life never gave a damn about her. She has some probably dislike for men, or at least some fear, which extends towards her crushes. Towards that she is suddenly all hesitant, shy and reserved, a far cry from her violent and aggressive self. The only man to have really cared for her was Ryuuji.

Which is why about at around the end of the father arc I think I finally understood why she treats Yuuji as she does:

She sees Yuuji as an extension of her father, thus a father figure, and as such treats him like crap. And yet, as the conflict in herself manifests to us, she is unable to respond and integrate well to the fact that Yuuji is indeed, very much different than her father is. That Yuuji is unlike any caring man that she seen before, she simply does not know how to act. She would simply treat him as she treats her father, but he is obviously a person far from him.

I see her conflict enough as it is. Many scenes were shown of her being dumbfounded enough as it is that Yuuji is nice to her despite her abuse. She clearly isn't well adjusted to this, and like a maladjusted person reponds typically with disdain. But as the series progresses, despite her usual violence, I can see some appreciation in her eyes.

She's slowly warming up to him. She is, in short, slowly learning.

The years of neglect and potential man/father hate is slowly disappearing. She has never appreciated what it meant to have someone care for her, despite her longing for one, because she never grew up with it. She never truly understood, because she was not given the chance. The first time she felt what it was like to have someone care for her almost without recompense was Yuuji. She didn't understand, she didn't know, she could not notice, and thus couldn't appreciate. But she found herself on that street, crying out his name, because she finally realized what it was to truly have someone watch over her.

This, I think, is what makes her the penultimate example of her character type.

And with that, with her heartfelt realization, tells me no other person deserved Yuuji more than her.
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Old 2009-02-15, 08:42   Link #315
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... snip ...
Is there any chance you went to Ateneo de Manila University and are known as Jorge?
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Old 2009-02-15, 08:44   Link #316
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Is there any chance you went to Ateneo de Manila University and are known as Jorge?
And if by some chance I know who you are, this is a creepy coincidence.

Edit - At marami akong kilalang Michael.
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Old 2009-02-15, 08:48   Link #317
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Well said MeoTwister, finally someone with approximately the proper knowledge has come out to describe Taiga's psychological profile.

And oh LOLOL a mini-reunion XD
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Old 2009-02-15, 08:49   Link #318
physics223
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Of all places I didn't expect you to pop up here. I never expected you to watch anime.

Anyway, let's play DotA someday, when you're free once again.

That was a good reply by the way. I never expected you to be fluent in English!

Bano ka pa rin mag-DotA ano. hahahahaha
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Old 2009-02-15, 08:53   Link #319
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I'm going to refrain from posting on your blog as I never really intended to debate the moralities, feelings, and actions of the characters, rather just state my opinions once. I know doing that in the first place in this forum opens up discussion on whatever opinions I stated, but as far as my input goes, I wanted to just leave it at that. So really my goal isn't to get anybody to see the story from my viewpoint, just to express it since I'm really enjoying this series, and this episode in particular.

The only way anybody could have a "wrong" viewpoint is if they thought something that contradicts a fact, like saying Ryuuji is bipolar crack addict and everything in the show is just his delusions...something that clearly isn't true. You have reasons to feel like Taiga's undeserving compared to Minori and Ami, and I have reasons to believe that she is moreso, among other differences in our opinions. Hopefully we'll get an ending that satisfies both of us, which could easily happen.

I'm hoping that the next few episodes gives us a little more insight into Ryuuji's thoughts as well, since the only deep actual interesting insight we've gotten from him recently (in my opinion) is his thoughts when the others were trying to pair up Taiga and Kitamura. Everything else he has thought recently were already established parts of his character.

Anyway, that's about all I have to say. I'm looking forward to reading what everybody else thinks of the last few arcs on these forums, even if I don't feel inclined to post myself.

Edit to respond to MeoTwister5: That is some interesting insight into Taiga's character that I never really thought about myself. I'm not sure I necessarily believe that's exactly what is going on with her character, but it is impossible to deny that what you describe fits her without any glaring faults. Either way, it is definitely an interesting way to view her character, and one I hadn't considered until viewing your post.

Last edited by Mangz; 2009-02-15 at 09:01. Reason: Responding to another poster
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Old 2009-02-15, 08:55   Link #320
MeoTwister5
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Of all places I didn't expect you to pop up here. I never expected you to watch anime.

Anyway, let's play DotA someday, when you're free once again.

That was a good reply by the way. I never expected you to be fluent in English!
Holy crap I think I know who you are.

Wait... teka... ok nawawala ako ulit. But you're only one of 2 Mike's I know who play there haha.

Edit - Pweh. You can't be an Atenista and not at least type good English.

Oo bano pa rin ako magDota haha. Left4Dead for a while.
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