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Old 2009-02-21, 15:45   Link #981
Vexx
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Hmm, been very quiet in this thread....

UNESCO reporting that 8 languages native to Japan are almost certainly going extinct, including the Ainu language.

http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-...902210050.html
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Old 2009-02-21, 16:51   Link #982
Ryuou
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Wow, that's the first I've heard of that volcano story. I wonder if some of my relatives and friends noticed it. I like how Tachikawa and Fussa were mentioned in the article.

And that's an interesting article about the endangered languages. I only thought there were two other distinct languages in Japan other than Japanese, Ainu and Okinawan. I'll definitely have to study up on those other languages some time.
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Old 2009-02-22, 08:23   Link #983
Nerroth
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It would be a sad day if the Ainu language were to die off...
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Old 2009-02-22, 09:09   Link #984
ZephyrLeanne
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Originally Posted by Nerroth View Post
It would be a sad day if the Ainu language were to die off...
And why would you say so...? It never had, and probably never will, have much impact on Japan.
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Old 2009-02-22, 16:28   Link #985
Ryuou
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No it hasn't, but I also think it would be sad to lose. Not because it's Ainu specifically, but because it would be a loss of culture.
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Old 2009-02-22, 19:49   Link #986
Nerroth
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Ainu is the oldest known language to exist in the archipelago - it's a lot more likely that the people of the Jomon era (a far longer period of time than the post-Yayoi period) including the inhabitants of places like Sannai-Maruyama, were speaking it than anything like modern Japanese.

Indeed, after the Yayoi era, and for a long time afterwards, large parts of what is now Japan remained under Ainu control - northern Honshu was only gradually occupied over the course of several centuries, and Hokkaido was (mostly) holding out until the 19th century.

(Ironically, most cities in Hokkaido, such as Sapporo, seem to echo the kind of colonial architecture and city layout used by the British and others in places like western Canada and Australia - which were colonised in the same era. Only Hakodate is much older, and even it was not much of anything before the colonial period.)


Ainu is a living link to a part of the islands' history (and pre-history) that has been discriminated against, ignored and sidelined by Yamato-centric policies for far, far too long - in an unfortunate echo of the treatment that indigenous peoples from the Aborigines of Australia to the First Nations of Canada and elsewhere have been forced to endure (but, thankfully, have been at least addressed more fairly in recent years in those countries)... and it's long past time that these issues were addressed.


But then, I suppose it's somewhat ironic that today, I find the kind of dismissive attitude by some towards Anew be echoed towards Ainu... sigh.
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Old 2009-02-23, 22:20   Link #987
Vexx
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Out with the "kogal" style, in with the "agejo" (bar hostess Yu-chan in Toradora!, Ryuuji's mom). The new style in Tokyo....

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-b...0090224f1.html
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Old 2009-02-23, 22:27   Link #988
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The agejo look does look better. The kogal look always makes me wonder what were they thinking to make themselves so ugly for.
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Old 2009-02-23, 23:16   Link #989
Vexx
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Originally Posted by FateAnomaly View Post
The agejo look does look better. The kogal look always makes me wonder what were they thinking to make themselves so ugly for.
Agreed... the 'kogal' look was just atrocious. If they must "pretend to be white" :P :P, this is less obnoxious a result.
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Old 2009-02-23, 23:17   Link #990
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerroth View Post
Ainu is the oldest known language to exist in the archipelago - it's a lot more likely that the people of the Jomon era (a far longer period of time than the post-Yayoi period) including the inhabitants of places like Sannai-Maruyama, were speaking it than anything like modern Japanese.

Indeed, after the Yayoi era, and for a long time afterwards, large parts of what is now Japan remained under Ainu control - northern Honshu was only gradually occupied over the course of several centuries, and Hokkaido was (mostly) holding out until the 19th century.

(Ironically, most cities in Hokkaido, such as Sapporo, seem to echo the kind of colonial architecture and city layout used by the British and others in places like western Canada and Australia - which were colonised in the same era. Only Hakodate is much older, and even it was not much of anything before the colonial period.)


Ainu is a living link to a part of the islands' history (and pre-history) that has been discriminated against, ignored and sidelined by Yamato-centric policies for far, far too long - in an unfortunate echo of the treatment that indigenous peoples from the Aborigines of Australia to the First Nations of Canada and elsewhere have been forced to endure (but, thankfully, have been at least addressed more fairly in recent years in those countries)... and it's long past time that these issues were addressed.


But then, I suppose it's somewhat ironic that today, I find the kind of dismissive attitude by some towards Anew be echoed towards Ainu... sigh.
In some NHK documentaries on the Ainu, there are laudable efforts by the local aborigines to preserve their culture, language and heritage, to survive the onslaught of modern media. So they set up museums, documented their language, passed on tribal traditions to younger generations, performed native Ainu music as a form of world music, and wore their native costumes to show that they're proud of their heritage.
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Old 2009-02-24, 07:02   Link #991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa547 View Post
In some NHK documentaries on the Ainu, there are laudable efforts by the local aborigines to preserve their culture, language and heritage, to survive the onslaught of modern media. So they set up museums, documented their language, passed on tribal traditions to younger generations, performed native Ainu music as a form of world music, and wore their native costumes to show that they're proud of their heritage.
True.

But as someone who's been from the Kansai/Chubu area, I think that what really needs preserving is the traditional Japanese way of life, like in Kyoto and Nara, I mean nowadays, Salaryman/OL is like the norm now, and there is very little focus on the past traditions on today's society. Foreigners respect our traditional heritage for its subtleties and its attention to detail.

Also, the culture of zanichi Koreans/Chinese/Taiwanese also need to be protected. They are the people Japan bullied and took advantage of in the past - we should at least make up for it.

I think that the Ainu question, like the Ryukyu question is rather problematic. Because if the central government [referred from here as Tokyo] takes steps to preserve these culture, independence movements that were lying low will spring into action and take advantage of Tokyo. That's why I think that Tokyo is not doing as UNESCO suggests.

But when you take care of the zainichi people, you are also fostering ties with other nations [PRC, ROK, ROC], and that is a good thing.

Quote:
(Ironically, most cities in Hokkaido, such as Sapporo, seem to echo the kind of colonial architecture and city layout used by the British and others in places like western Canada and Australia - which were colonised in the same era. Only Hakodate is much older, and even it was not much of anything before the colonial period.)
This is a Meiji thing, in the Meiji period, there was a trend to learn from the British [although textbooks here say Tokyo was pressured to - I think that's very hawkish] and that's why you see this kind of things.

Quote:
Ainu is a living link to a part of the islands' history (and pre-history) that has been discriminated against, ignored and sidelined by Yamato-centric policies for far, far too long - in an unfortunate echo of the treatment that indigenous peoples from the Aborigines of Australia to the First Nations of Canada and elsewhere have been forced to endure (but, thankfully, have been at least addressed more fairly in recent years in those countries)... and it's long past time that these issues were addressed.
Remember, the Australia and Canadian problems are different, their indigenous people did not have a strong desire to break away. In Japan, there were Ainu and Ryukyu independence movements, and were very strong, this explains the fear of Tokyo when it comes to preservation of Ainu/Ryukyu culture.
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Old 2009-02-24, 08:30   Link #992
Tri-ring
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Originally Posted by ShimatheKat View Post
True.

But as someone who's been from the Kansai/Chubu area, I think that what really needs preserving is the traditional Japanese way of life, like in Kyoto and Nara, I mean nowadays, Salaryman/OL is like the norm now, and there is very little focus on the past traditions on today's society. Foreigners respect our traditional heritage for its subtleties and its attention to detail.
Also, the culture of zanichi Koreans/Chinese/Taiwanese also need to be protected
. They are the people Japan bullied and took advantage of in the past - we should at least make up for it.

I think that the Ainu question, like the Ryukyu question is rather problematic. Because if the central government [referred from here as Tokyo] takes steps to preserve these culture, independence movements that were lying low will spring into action and take advantage of Tokyo. That's why I think that Tokyo is not doing as UNESCO suggests.

But when you take care of the zainichi people, you are also fostering ties with other nations [PRC, ROK, ROC], and that is a good thing.



This is a Meiji thing, in the Meiji period, there was a trend to learn from the British [although textbooks here say Tokyo was pressured to - I think that's very hawkish] and that's why you see this kind of things.



Remember, the Australia and Canadian problems are different, their indigenous people did not have a strong desire to break away. In Japan, there were Ainu and Ryukyu independence movements, and were very strong, this explains the fear of Tokyo when it comes to preservation of Ainu/Ryukyu culture.
I wonder what you have been smoking?
Try hyping down the whole independence movement thing since there has been none for the last 100 years.

I also wonder why the culture of zanichi Koreans/Chinese/Taiwanese needs to be protected?
First of all, most of them are immigrants of their own wishes, the minor Koreans(alot of them came to Japan on their own which is documented) that were forced were able to leave after the war but decided to stay.
The Taiwaniese and mainland Chinese were not forced in anyways.
They can protect their own culture by themselves and I see no reason why public aid is needed in anyways. China town in Yokohama, Kobe and/or Nagasaki is thriving and Kanteibyo in Yokohama was errected through private donations.

Neither the Ainu nor the Ryukuans were hurdled into reservation camps to rot unlike Canadians or Australian aboriginies.

Quote:
Foreigners respect our traditional heritage for its subtleties and its attention to detail.
And please be more specific to who's tradition you talking about.
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Old 2009-02-24, 08:39   Link #993
ZephyrLeanne
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
I wonder what you have been smoking?
Try hyping down the whole independence movement thing since there has been none for the last 100 years.
Whoa, you're not attentive enough to these issues, no?
Kariyushi Club
Although this is for Ryukyu, what's stopping Ainu from doing the same??

Quote:
I also wonder why the culture of zanichi Koreans/Chinese/Taiwanese needs to be protected?
First of all, most of them are immigrants of their own wishes, the minor Koreans(alot of them came to Japan on their own which is documented) that were forced were able to leave after the war but decided to stay.
The Taiwaniese and mainland Chinese were not forced in anyways.
They can protect their own culture by themselves and I see no reason why public aid is needed in anyways. China town in Yokohama, Kobe and/or Nagasaki is thriving and Kanteibyo in Yokohama was errected through private donations.
What goes into your texts these days?? Seriously, the zainichi are descendants of the POWs during Japan's militaristic period. And they are usually too poor to return to their homelands, or it's not even there anymore. So they're stuck, really.

True, there are man Chinatowns/Koreantowns, but still, this is all private efforts. Tokyo should first understand these people are victims of their circumstances.

Quote:
Neither the Ainu nor the Ryukuans were hurdled into reservation camps to rot unlike Canadians or Australian aboriginies.
Right, that's new. I'll look on that.

Quote:
And please be more specific to who's tradition you talking about.
Japanese. Specifically, YAMATO.
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Old 2009-02-24, 09:14   Link #994
Tri-ring
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Originally Posted by ShimatheKat View Post
Whoa, you're not attentive enough to these issues, no?
Kariyushi Club
Although this is for Ryukyu, what's stopping Ainu from doing the same??
Quote:
Critics believed this is because the vast majority of Okinawans think the independence is unrealistic[citation needed]. On the other hand, the party was under adverse conditions, as it completely lacked name recognition or an electoral turf, and Yara resided in Tokyo, not in Okinawa.
I hardly call that a movement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShimatheKat View Post
What goes into your texts these days?? Seriously, the zainichi are descendants of the POWs during Japan's militaristic period. And they are usually too poor to return to their homelands, or it's not even there anymore. So they're stuck, really.
True, there are man Chinatowns/Koreantowns, but still, this is all private efforts. Tokyo should first understand these people are victims of their circumstances.
POW??
Taiwan and Korea was PART of JAPAN during 1895/1910 to 1945 how could they be POWs?
Korean immigrants were flocking to Japan by the millions before the war and immigration had to limit the number of Koreans coming to Japan.
Mainland chinese immigrants were coming over to Japan from the end of Edo period to flee from war and/or proverty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShimatheKat View Post
Japanese. Specifically, YAMATO.
The Japanese culture has adopted and adapted through time with a strong center core. Whather it be haiku, sado, kado, or any other heritage still thrives strong and is not some "Oriental" mythtical teaching that is handed orally since there are plenty of private schools that is willing to teach you.
By the way I thought your tradition was other than Japanese.
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Old 2009-02-24, 09:57   Link #995
ZephyrLeanne
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
I hardly call that a movement.
Well, it's up to you to think whatever - but at least you know something has been done.


Quote:
POW??
Taiwan and Korea was PART of JAPAN during 1895/1910 to 1945 how could they be POWs?
Still, slavery in any case.

Quote:
Korean immigrants were flocking to Japan by the millions before the war and immigration had to limit the number of Koreans coming to Japan.
Mainland chinese immigrants were coming over to Japan from the end of Edo period to flee from war and/or proverty.
Now? Situation is that Japanese look down on them.


Quote:
The Japanese culture has adopted and adapted through time with a strong center core. Whather it be haiku, sado, kado, or any other heritage still thrives strong and is not some "Oriental" mythtical teaching that is handed orally since there are plenty of private schools that is willing to teach you.
By the way I thought your tradition was other than Japanese.
True, the adaption. But that's also why Japanese culture is so special. Isn't it? M tradition is half Chinese, half Japanese.
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Old 2009-02-24, 10:20   Link #996
Tri-ring
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Originally Posted by ShimatheKat View Post
Still, slavery in any case.
Slavery??
How can it be slavery when most of them came at their own free will?
As again Taiwan and Korea was part of Japan from 1895/1910.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShimatheKat View Post
Now? Situation is that Japanese look down on them.
I had a friend in China town and he even invited me to his coming of ages ceremony, giving me the claws of of the bear paw that was served at the party.
We have mutual respect to one another.
I also have a friend being a Korean Nisei.
We debate alot concerning the difference of the past BUT he never complained being DISCRIMINATED in the present Japanese society.
Nor have I heard any nisei nor sansei complain concerning discrimination except for maybe from North Korean follower who worship Kim JonIl.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShimatheKat View Post
True, the adaption. But that's also why Japanese culture is so special. Isn't it? M tradition is half Chinese, half Japanese.
I really do not care.
Adaptation and transition has always been Japan's strong point. Whether it be Kanji,religion, potery or what not Japan have always been able to diegest and localize to create something unique from the original.
Sorry but Japan is an ongoing culture which does not tolerate nostagia, always looking for ways to refine the original content.
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Old 2009-02-24, 10:25   Link #997
ZephyrLeanne
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Slavery??
How can it be slavery when most of them came at their own free will?
As again Taiwan and Korea was part of Japan from 1895/1910.
Oh well. Whatever's in your textbooks.

Quote:
I had a friend in China town and he even invited me to his coming of ages ceremony, giving me the claws of of the bear paw that was served at the party.
We have mutual respect to one another.
I also have a friend being a Korean Nisei.
We debate alot concerning the difference of the past BUT he never complained being DISCRIMINATED in the present Japanese society.
Nor have I heard any nisei nor sansei complain concerning discrimination except for maybe from North Korean follower who worship Kim Jong Il.
Well, that's one side, I always see the other. We see it from different sides of the question, neither is more correct.


Quote:
I really do not care.
Adaptation and transition has always been Japan's strong point. Whether it be Kanji,religion, potery or what not Japan have always been able to diegest and localize to create something unique from the original.
It's a good thing, really.

Quote:
Sorry but Japan is an ongoing culture which does not tolerate nostagia, always looking for ways to refine the original content.
I meant to slow down and smell the roses, you know? Not everyone goes back in time or whatever.
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Old 2009-02-27, 05:24   Link #998
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Yakuza are feeling the pain of recession in Japan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Economist
the yakuza—Japan’s organised-crime groups that date from the 17th century—are getting squeezed. For most of the post-war period they operated openly: tolerated by the public, used by politicians and protected by police. Crime will happen anyway, went the argument, so better to know whom to call when it crosses the line. In the 1950s ministers and industrialists relied on the mobsters and nationalist groups to quash unions and socialists. The gangs upheld classic Japanese virtues of manliness and loyalty—and paid for mistakes by slicing off one of their fingers in atonement.

But this orderly way of life is fraying. The floundering economy has eaten into revenue from traditional activities that required muscle, such as gambling, prostitution and loan-sharking. To compensate, the groups have ploughed into financial fraud, stock manipulation and cybercrime, giving rise to a new generation of gangster-nerds, more interested in business than blackmail. Still, the yakuza boasts 84,000 members (of whom half are “part-timers”) and is estimated to haul in as much as ¥2 trillion (around $21 billion) annually.
http://www.economist.com/world/asia/...ry_id=13184963
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Old 2009-02-27, 09:37   Link #999
ZephyrLeanne
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Originally Posted by Autumn Demon View Post
Yakuza are feeling the pain of recession in Japan.


http://www.economist.com/world/asia/...ry_id=13184963
How sad. You know, where other nations had Special Operations Command, we have Yakuza. LOLZ.

You know, it's time for some of those politicians who used them to repay.
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Old 2009-03-15, 07:14   Link #1000
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I have a somewhat strange request. I've been always intrigued by the blurred difference between the words "destiny" and "fate" in the english language (and many other western languages).

These two words are similars in many ways, they both involve the concept of an unavoidable future. So sometimes they are seen as synonymous'. However in the western culture there is a difference between them. "Fate" usually involves a sort of fickle will that dominates our lives, no matter what a person does the fate will always reach its goal in a way or another. "Final Destination" is a good example of movie that deals with the concept of "fate".
"Destiny" differs as it is seen more like a straight path, it's like a railroad, so it's not like it has a will of its own. Another notable difference is that persons's actions and wills are not necessarily considered unrelevant as for determining the destiny.
Basically destiny is the incarnation of absolute determinism, fate is the incarnation of chaos.

For that reason destiny is usually seen as something positive while fate is usually seen as something negative. The word "fatality" comes from "fate". When someone talks about an inevitable sad future he says "this is my fate", when someone talks about his own future objective whom he really strives for he says: "this is my destiny".
When two people love each other they often say: "it's destiny that brought us together" they do not say that it was "fate". Even those that refuse the concept of predetermined future they often say: "i'll make my own destiny" they do not say "i'll make my own fate".

So this big introduction is to ask if such distinction can also be applied to japanese culture.
I know of the word "unmei" which should mean "fate" and the word "shukumei" which should be more similar to the concept of "destiny"

But does that distinction actually exist? Are there words that actually reflect the difference between "fate" and "destiny" or are there completely different words who differs for another completely different reason?
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