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Old 2009-02-26, 17:16   Link #881
Seibee
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Originally Posted by nutype View Post
you dont have to dumb it down further, the smart people get what you are saying.
I think it was for KLAC's benefit, though I doubt it'll register.
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Old 2009-02-26, 17:18   Link #882
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Originally Posted by Garrod Ran View Post
yes the destiny plan was messed up , but that still doesn't change anything .
what im getting at is its still no different from Djibril killing all coordinators , or clyne faction enforcing their particular version of peace by using outlawed weaponry.
at BEST its the lesser of three evils , still doesn't mean its their place to decide for the entire human race.

ya it's pretty simple, everyone in destiny are the bad guys, there is no good guys.

this is one of many reasons why GSD is so messed up/horrible
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Old 2009-02-26, 19:07   Link #883
Sir Dearka
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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
I think experience part here is debatable. Forget about the real-life experience. Someone who works out thousands of simulations of the real-scenario to cover almost every possibility cannot be considered as a less experienced pilot. Kira was doing those on the run, but Shinn used those scenarios to help reach his goal. Could anyone else have achieved the same results with the same suit? I think, that is a possibility. Which may be enough to show not to pay too much attention to such results.
Of course there is a possibility... Though it was clearly implied by the creators that Shinn is a superace and he a couple of times has shown that he is a capable pilot, beating other Gundams being equally prepared for battle (three new druggies). Kira used the WTF factor to win on the battlefield several times so really, why not Shinn this time? To me, him being the one to finally bring down the ubercoordinator Yamato is as worth praising as it'd be if any other superace did the same thing. And he deserves being praised as without doubt he was the first one to really do it: Bring down the ridiculously overpowered megaboss.

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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
They are different type of shows, different types of settings. To me, Seed feels more like watching an anime, and 00 feels more like reading a manga. I don't need to ignore one for the other, as I can enjoy both at the same time. But, not under the title of Gundam.
Yeah, and I do accept variety but NOT IN MY COUNTRY. What is it, some Gundam apartheid?

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Originally Posted by Fishfood1 View Post
ya it's pretty simple, everyone in destiny are the bad guys, there is no good guys.

this is one of many reasons why GSD is so messed up/horrible
Well, if you call fighting "evil", then you are right. But I think pretty much everyone'd readily "become evil" to protect his friends and family. Unless you are a selfish bastard like Muruta Azrael or a ultramachiavellian ideologist like Durandal.

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Originally Posted by LelouchZeroFTW View Post
I just think 100 episodes for the Seed series was too much. It was just a stream of dragged out stories and recycled scenes. 50 would have been enough to tell both stories, crap as they were.
What was so "crap" about those stories, again?

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Originally Posted by LelouchZeroFTW View Post
>Well, your happy hour has come
Yeah talk about it! I expect quality though, so if this is a Seedized piece of crap, I will call BS on it!
Well, everyone has his own idea of quality. Your idea seems a tad too limited to me, though, seeing you not being so open-minded about the various faces og the franchise we all love here

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Originally Posted by kakakka View Post
No I mean, with Destiny plan.... Like it would plant seeds of hatred all over again. Meh, maybe its either that it's not really explained in the movie or I just missed it
Well, it was obvious why Archangel crew did not trust Dullindal, seeing how conveniently he put his Lacus puppet Meer. If anyone was to be suspected of trying to assasinate the pink princess, he is one of the main suspects. And their efforts were not focused on him solely but on all the fighting sides until he chose to show his true colors by usibng his supaweapon on all those who did not choose HIS option.
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Old 2009-02-26, 19:17   Link #884
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If my memory serves me right, Lacus responded after Durandal fired that doomsday weapon to other countries first

Now comes the irony part, had Durandal only proceeded that Destiny plan to Zaft's territory, then it bears no meaning at all..the whole point of the plan is to end the war, so you have to include everyone, and when you try to force other countries to comply, fight sure will happen...and it gives Lacus's excuse to fight back as soon as Durandal fired that doomesday weapon, it should have fired at Orb first

That being said, it is annoying that Kira not fight with blue comso at least once...that was the bigger evil before Durandal took over
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Old 2009-02-26, 19:49   Link #885
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From what I remembered in the movie (I have blurry memory of this, I'll admit) Lacus and co. considered Durandal's Destiny plan evil before he even fired the doomsday weapon against a nation. That's why I find it weird. Maybe, it's the whole genetic issue that bothered them about the plan. I need to rewatch it or watch the actual episode myself. Thanks for some input.
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Old 2009-02-26, 19:53   Link #886
Sir Dearka
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Originally Posted by kakakka View Post
From what I remembered in the movie (I have blurry memory of this, I'll admit) Lacus and co. considered Durandal's Destiny plan evil before he even fired the doomsday weapon against a nation. That's why I find it weird. Maybe, it's the whole genetic issue that bothered them about the plan. I need to rewatch it or watch the actual episode myself. Thanks for some input.
I think that the sole concept of "programming" humans was disturbing to them. Coordinators are one thing... But even coordinators have the chance to shape their destinies, ulike automates that Durandal tried to turn the whole human race into. I am really not that surprised that people whose main machine is called "Freedom" would never bend to the plan.
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Old 2009-02-26, 20:35   Link #887
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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
Now comes the irony part, had Durandal only proceeded that Destiny plan to Zaft's territory, then it bears no meaning at all..the whole point of the plan is to end the war, so you have to include everyone, and when you try to force other countries to comply, fight sure will happen...and it gives Lacus's excuse to fight back as soon as Durandal fired that doomesday weapon, it should have fired at Orb first
That's why Dullindal tried to eliminate his main enemies early, including Kira, Lacus and Orb. He knew they would resist his plan.

Quote:
That being said, it is annoying that Kira not fight with blue comso at least once...that was the bigger evil before Durandal took over
It was mentioned in one of the episodes that they knew LOGOS would be no match for Dullindal... And they were right. That's why they weren't worried about them.
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Old 2009-02-27, 02:53   Link #888
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Ok don't kill me for this, but.....if you think about it, Lacus/Kira and Djibril (Logos)are among the first ones who broke the treaty in GSD. I believe the treaty signed at the end of the GS is that no side is allowed to use the Nuclear/Colloid technology. Freedom is the only nuclear-powered suit in GSD before the ZAFT's was rolled out while the Phantom Pain used the Girty Lue.

and when they lost the Freedom, Lacus was ready with possibly two full-hax MSes. Dullindal surely picked the wrong enemy
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Old 2009-02-27, 03:23   Link #889
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What caused GSD to fail? I have 3 answers for that:
1. Plot HAX
2. Plot Shield
3. Plot Armor

For me, SEED was okay but GSD, would be a nothing but a failure.
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Old 2009-02-27, 03:45   Link #890
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Originally Posted by coba View Post
Ok don't kill me for this, but.....if you think about it, Lacus/Kira and Djibril (Logos)are among the first ones who broke the treaty in GSD. I believe the treaty signed at the end of the GS is that no side is allowed to use the Nuclear/Colloid technology. Freedom is the only nuclear-powered suit in GSD before the ZAFT's was rolled out while the Phantom Pain used the Girty Lue.
<sigh> How many times do I have to mow it down. This is how I believed Lacus never broke any treaty: She signed to none as she seemed to want to break out of politics after the first war. So she retreated along with Kira and sealed their Nuclear-powered suit in the only country with possibly enough independence from EF - ORB.

Spoiler for Junius Treaty from official Gundam site:

Notice that it is not mentioned whether they are forbidden to be maintained without using or developing new N-jammer Cancellers. Additionally, we never now just how far ORB's independence on this matter is specified. It is just written that they are forbidden to be used. Freedom's Nuclear Reactor and core is a remnant of the previous war. And I don't think keeping it hidden in ORB with the hope of never using it is that bad. Especially that we all know ORB "The Orb Union is forbidden to transfer any military technology (either in weapon shipments or aid) to either the Earth Alliance or ZAFT, though either side can apparently use any Orb technology acquired before the treaty." (this taken from Wikipedia, but as we see above it is also clarified in the excerpt from page above). More than that, not that they'd even care about the laws and treaties if they perceived them as bad, Lacus and Kira are so Mary Sue they would never use it with evil intentions but protecting. The "evil" of waging war and getting their hands dirty... well, they probably know it as they choose to fight instead of staying there getting brainwashed, "totalitarized" or slaughtered like pigs without defense. Dullindal, on the other hand is a different history. He does reperesent one of the sides that signed the treaty, leading the prominent political role in his country. Still, he was among the first one scheming, attacking and killing thousands of thousands to fulfil his goals.

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Originally Posted by coba View Post
and when they lost the Freedom, Lacus was ready with possibly two full-hax MSes. Dullindal surely picked the wrong enemy
Well, as it turned out, Kira and Lacus were right in their lack of faith in history not repeating itself someday as this lack of faith was represented exactly by the fact they kept a Nuclear-powered Mobile Suit in their basement.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiu_fan View Post
What caused GSD to fail? I have 3 answers for that:
1. Plot HAX
2. Plot Shield
3. Plot Armor

For me, SEED was okay but GSD, would be a nothing but a failure.
thanks for another original opinion on Animesuki <claps his hands>
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Old 2009-02-27, 04:33   Link #891
coba
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Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post
<sigh> How many times do I have to mow it down. This is how I believed Lacus never broke any treaty: She signed to none as she seemed to want to break out of politics after the first war. So she retreated along with Kira and sealed their Nuclear-powered suit in the only country with possibly enough independence from EF - ORB.

[SPOILER="Junius Treaty from official Gundam site"]The Junius Treaty prohibits the use of N-Jammer Cancelers in mobile suits and military weapons, and all use of Mirage Colloid is banned outright. As a result, both sides are prohibited from developing or deploying mobile suits equipped with nuclear engines or Mirage Colloid stealth systems. The treaty also places strict limits on the number of ships, mobile suits, and mobile armors that each side can maintain, as per the proposals of the Lindemann Plan.


Freedom's Nuclear Reactor and core is a remnant of the previous war. And I don't think keeping it hidden in ORB with the hope of never using it is that bad. Especially that we all know ORB "The Orb Union is forbidden to transfer any military technology (either in weapon shipments or aid) to either the Earth Alliance or ZAFT

More than that, not that they'd even care about the laws and treaties if they perceived them as bad, Lacus and Kira are so Mary Sue they would never use it with evil intentions but protecting.

Well, as it turned out, Kira and Lacus were right in their lack of faith in history not repeating itself someday as this lack of faith was represented exactly by the fact they kept a Nuclear-powered Mobile Suit in their basement.

Eh... I don't know where you get the logic from, the word "both" in The Junius Treaty which prohibits the use of N-Jammer Cancelers in mobile suits and military weapons, and all use of Mirage Colloid clearly refers to ZAFT and the earth as whole. As far as I know, both Lacus and Kira are technically a citizen of Orb (unless they create their own space colony with a brand new nation) so they will have to abide the traty. As long as they are both citizens of either a nation in earth or ZAFT, they are not suppose to have any nuclear-powered MS. They clearly broke two different things in the treaty: the use of NJC in the MS as well as deploying a nuclear MS after ep 13.

I don't care whatever the reason is, the rule/treaty is there so that everyone follows it. The treaty to ban the nuclear use is there because they want to prevent the catastrophic effect of the nuclear which they experience before. I can't really accept the idea that because Lacus is a queen of the universe while Kira is her poster boy, they are allowed to possess Freedom (they should scrap it after the battle in GS) . Just because of different reason, it does not make them better compared to what the Phantom Pain did. After all, both of them clearly breaks the treaty for their own personal gain.

Just take a real world example in gun ownership in a prohibited country. Are you saying that a person who own the gun with the purpose of protecting his family is less guilty than other who uses the gun to do crimes ? I do believe when the police stops their car and finds the gun, both parties will be charged for the posession of the illegal gun. It is simple, you are not allow to poseess the gun by the law, then you aren't suppose to have one.

Last edited by coba; 2009-02-27 at 04:46.
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Old 2009-02-27, 04:59   Link #892
Sir Dearka
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Originally Posted by coba View Post
Just take a real world example in gun ownership in a prohibited country. Are you saying that a person who own the gun with the purpose of protecting his family is less guilty than other who uses the gun to do crimes ? I do believe when the police stops their car and finds the gun, both parties will be charged for the posession of the illegal gun. It is simple, you are not allow to poseess the gun by the law, then you aren't suppose to have one.
Isn't my logic obvious? It's simple as the construction of a stick. If this person has a morally justified reason, I really don't see anything wrong with it (as a person of the same morality). But still, let him/her be charged, whatever, if the current system is not ready to forgive them and overlook it like it did with Lacus and Kira (why it did so is undersdtandable, of course as Lacus pretty much became loved and pretty influential by the end of the series) Besides, as I said, they are clearly keeping the nuclear from the previous war. I don't see it written anywhere that keeping is forbidden. Just "developing" or "using", but still I am aware of that clinging to exact meaning of words is not that strong an argument.
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Old 2009-02-27, 05:18   Link #893
coba
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Isn't my logic obvious? It's simple as the construction of a stick. If this person has a morally justified reason, I really don't see anything wrong with it (as a person of the same morality). But still, let him/her be charged, whatever, if the current system is not ready to forgive them and overlook it like it did with Lacus and Kira (why it did so is undersdtandable, of course as Lacus pretty much became loved and pretty influential by the end of the series) .
So based on your logic, are you implying that a person can steal in the supermarket if he/she has a good reason ? So if a poor person who hasn't eat for two days steals food from a supermarket, you think that his action is justified and the police should not charge him at all ?

This is a good example on how people is still liable to the law, even though their reasoning is good. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/odd_good_...NESXbe_5wazJV4

Quote:
Besides, as I said, they are clearly keeping the nuclear from the previous war. I don't see it written anywhere that keeping is forbidden. Just "developing" or "using", but still I am aware of that clinging to exact meaning of words is not that strong an argument
I believe you were the one who posted the Junius treaty right? It was clearly state and I quote" The Junius Treaty prohibits the use of N-Jammer Cancelers in mobile suits and military weapons". Freedom has the NJC so it definitely break the treaty. In addition, "both sides are prohibited from ....deploying mobile suits equipped with nuclear engines". Kira deploys his Freedom after ep 12 in GSD and this is clearly a violation of the treaty.
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Old 2009-02-27, 05:21   Link #894
Sir Dearka
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So based on your logic, are you implying that a person can steal in the supermarket if he/she has a good reason ? So if a poor person who hasn't eat for two days steals food from a supermarket, you think that his action is justified and the police should not charge him at all ?.
They should be charged, as I said. But still, if they did it cause there was no other way to feed their family, I'd have no hard feelings about it.

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I believe you were the one who posted the Junius treaty right? It was clearly state and I quote" The Junius Treaty prohibits the use of N-Jammer Cancelers in mobile suits and military weapons". Freedom has the NJC so it definitely break the treaty. In addition, "both sides are prohibited from ....deploying mobile suits equipped with nuclear engines". Kira deploys his Freedom after ep 12 in GSD and this is clearly a violation of the treaty.
Prohibits USE. But by the time Kira deployed it, the war was already on. Thus he "broke" the Unius Treaty but so what if the sides were already fighting and preparing/waging war full scale.
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Old 2009-02-27, 05:31   Link #895
coba
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They should be charged, as I said. But still, if they did it cause there was no other way to feed their family, I'd have no hard feelings about it.
Well I guess people tend not to care as long as they are not the one who get the consequence.

Quote:
Prohibits USE. But by the time Kira deployed it, the war was already on. Thus he "broke" the Unius Treaty but so what if the sides were already fighting and preparing/waging war full scale
You do realize that the only side that broke the treaty at that point is the Phantom Pain (Logos) who practically can be considered as truly "evil" in GSD. The treaty is there because they want to avoid a bloody war like the Bloodt Valentine incident.

Also, this still doesn't make erase the fact that Lacus/Kira violates the treaty of using NJC in the MS (Freedom uses NJC which allow it to operate under the nuclear power). Like I mentioned before, I can still argue that Kira can simply destroy the Freedom after the war and preserve other MSes that doesn't have the NTC. But no....he decided to preserve the storngest MS for his own purpose.
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Old 2009-02-27, 05:40   Link #896
Sir Dearka
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Well I guess people tend not to care as long as they are not the one who get the consequence.
Well, I don't know what you really mean by that. The law is on. Those who commit a crime are (hopefully) punished. If one'd steal from my shop one day and then saved my life and make me know he had no other choice when he was stealing, I'd not really feel like punishing him.

Then again, maybe I understand you. Yeah, nobody cares as long as they not the one who get the consequence. In Destiny Kira used Freedom to defeat the attacking mobile suits. I really don't care about the assasins nor the person who sent them.

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You do realize that the only side that broke the treaty at that point is the Phantom Pain (Logos) who practically can be considered as truly "evil" in GSD. The treaty is there because they want to avoid a bloody war like the Bloodt Valentine incident.

Also, this still doesn't make erase the fact that Lacus/Kira violates the treaty of using NTC in the MS. Like I mentioned before, I can still argue that Kira can simply destroy the Freedom after the war and preserve other MSes that doesn't have the NTC. But no....he decided to preserve the storngest MS for his own purpose.
And I still argue that he did more good by keeping it than he'd do by destroying it. And still, I'd have nothing against him really destroying the thing. It's just ultimately it turned out he and Lacus are predictable people instead of "blindly idealistic". Anyways, in both case, I personally have no complaints against their intentions and decisions.
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Old 2009-02-27, 05:46   Link #897
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Err...EA who are the first one to broke the treaty first when they use Girty Lue MC.So the treaty is useless from that point.

IF the creative team or Director of GSD want Freedom in that show,it will be in it.Beside the Japanese fans want Kira back & the toys company are worrying about the down sale for GSD kit.SO the director hand are tied down.

At least the mecha & soundtrack are awesome.
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Old 2009-02-27, 07:47   Link #898
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Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post

@elindir - Well, he basically made some research with a great help of Rey. Still, he pulled out the plan decently despite being less experienced and skilled than Kira. He was the only character in Destiny to ever destroy Kira's suit and survive it. No other person in CE managed to do that except Athrun in season one when he self-destructed Aegis.
Yeah, that's true, but don't forget that he didn't defeat a "full-powered" Kira, because the aforementioned's aim was to make the opponent's MS immobile, and not killing the enemy pilot. That's a big difference, basically Shinn's task was to defend the places which Kira always attacks.
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Old 2009-02-27, 09:00   Link #899
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Originally Posted by Fishfood1 View Post
ya it's pretty simple, everyone in destiny are the bad guys, there is no good guys.
This is essentially true of the real world as well. That's why it's foolish to divide the world into good/evil dichotomies. Especially when a more nuanced examination of "to what degree" should be applied.

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If my memory serves me right, Lacus responded after Durandal fired that doomsday weapon to other countries first
Not quite. Her repudiation of Durandal came right after they repulsed the attack on Orb - as Meer tried to present Durandal's justification for the attack. By that time, she already had a good idea about what he was up to, so the timing makes sense.

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I don't care whatever the reason is, the rule/treaty is there so that everyone follows it. The treaty to ban the nuclear use is there because they want to prevent the catastrophic effect of the nuclear which they experience before.
Correction: treaties are in place for the treaty signatories to follow. Everyone else is exempt from its stipulations. For now, it is still unclear whether Orb was a signatory to the ban on deploying Neutron Jammer Cancelers in the first place. Moreover, weapons limitation treaties aren't the kind of moral absolutes that you think they are. The idea behind them is that abiding by the stipulations, tensions will ease between countries in those specific areas, and reduce the likelihood of a war. Once a war breaks out, the treaty itself becomes void.

You're free to dislike Destiny for other reasons, but your reasoning here is in error.
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Old 2009-02-27, 10:35   Link #900
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i wish gundam fans would ask that why gundam seed's sequel is called 'gundam seed DESTINY' as the DESTINY gundam was the 'bad guy' of the show!? man,it should be called gundam seed JUSTICE!!
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