Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll [END]

[MeoTwister5]

I no longer find it exasperating when people conveniently ignore points to a counterargument either out of sheer realization that they're stance is screwed and just want a way out of it, or are simply trying to salvage what's left of their point. It's just a freaking BBS conversation. It's when you take this to real life when conversing with real people on really important issues that becomes the problem. Just saying.

And as someone who's been working and studying in the fields of science for 6 years, I can believe without a doubt that science is itself just as fallable as anything else.

[FTV]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

I no longer find it exasperating when people conveniently ignore points to a counterargument either out of sheer realization that they're stance is screwed and just want a way out of it, or are simply trying to salvage what's left of their point. It's just a freaking BBS conversation. It's when you take this to real life when conversing with real people on really important issues that becomes the problem. Just saying.

And as someone who's been working and studying in the fields of science for 6 years, I can believe without a doubt that science is itself just as fallable as anything else.

Whoa, I popped back into this thread and look at what Clannad's finale has done to it! Damn you japanese mad scientists! You've gone too far with our emotions this time!

[Ryuou]

As to the handling problem, I can merely point to that this conclusion under the clannadverse scientific backbone isn't out of the picture, and the (de)merits would have to be an argument of subjective nature.

I don't really care about whether it could or couldn't have happened (I'm on the glad it did side). I don't have a problem with the realism vs fantasy element. My problem is with how it was handled, presented, delivered. I felt it could've been a lot stronger. Like how I felt 16 (most won't agree) could've been stronger, and 21 (most will agree) could've been stronger. Again, my problem is with the "telling" half of storytelling.

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

I no longer find it exasperating when people conveniently ignore points to a counterargument either out of sheer realization that they're stance is screwed and just want a way out of it, or are simply trying to salvage what's left of their point. It's just a freaking BBS conversation. It's when you take this to real life when conversing with real people on really important issues that becomes the problem. Just saying.

And as someone who's been working and studying in the fields of science for 6 years, I can believe without a doubt that science is itself just as fallable as anything else.

Is this directed at what I posted? Because I don't see the connection to your frustration.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

I share the thought on how Ithekro, Proto and MeoTwister5 has had their literal defense being partly circumvented by some others out of perhaps inconvenience. Sheba raised this out in numerous instances, and I would say that this is the same position that dgreater1 has over this debate.

dgreater1 is not far off on invoking the theory of everything. I don't want to further alienate people by elaborating on this but essentially this forms the backbone physical science argument that I am trying to invoke due to relative perceived infallability in the faith of science. Personally I wish for a more vigorous apologetic but alas...

My props go out to their constructed defense. As to the handling problem, I can merely point to that this conclusion under the clannadverse scientific backbone isn't out of the picture, and the (de)merits would have to be an argument of subjective nature.


What you are referring to is known as the waveform collapse in a philosophical sense, which in itself is a contested issue on quantum mechanics, especially in IMV. The solution of this comes from the argument to solve dead-alive paradox within the Many World framework, where this possibility state collapse actually poses no real issue... detail of which is within the concept of decoherence that I am going to look into to get a better explanation on why is it that this is apparently a non-issue.

"Lieutenant La Forge, please report to the bridge.
We need you to fix this messed up situation where macho-male Klingon warriors are turning into baywatch babes and spawning ferengi offsprings, with whatever mumbo-jumbo things you do all the time."

That's about the understanding I have of whatever you just said.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by aohige

"Lieutenant La Forge, please report to the bridge.
We need you to fix this messed up situation where macho-male Klingon warriors are turning into baywatch babes and spawning ferengi offsprings, with whatever mumbo-jumbo things you do all the time."

That's about the understanding I have of whatever you just said.

You can put it simply in 3 words.

"That is jargon."

[MeoTwister5]

But we can all agree that the Clannad girls would make excellent Baywatch Babes amirite?

Is this directed at what I posted? Because I don't see the connection to your frustration.

Well I don't exactly see you circumnavigating people's points just to further your own stance so... no?

[panzerfan]

looks back at the blank 'what was that' face on people.

You know, cutting the technobabble is harder than it looks. Honestly, the metaphysics involved with talking about IMV feels alot like a philosophical argument almost to justify that 'yes Maeda Jun can technically do this'. I just find that I would be beating on a dead horse if I were to add onto the should or should not issue and that I'd be repeating myself with the Proto's named argument 2,3 and 4.

EDIT: Well, there is this one thing I can add. Kaioshin mentioning about entrapment does seem to lead to the thought of how that Maeda Jun seems to be doing the "let's screw Tomoya" game, but then again there's also the "let's stuff it down Tomoya's throat that you don't go and regret about the biggest decision of your life and play chicken" look at the rationale for the book of Tomoya, the Job. In a prior post in response to Myssa_rei, we talked about unrealistic expectations of the town inhabitants to the town and vice versa. In some sense I think that this duality applies with the Tomoya's tribulation issue too.

But we can all agree that the Clannad girls would make excellent Baywatch Babes amirite?

as long as the definition of girl is specific enough that Okazaki Shino and Ms.Isogai can opt out of this one.

Originally Posted by Tran225

what happened to Nagisa/Ushio's death, Was it all a dream for Tomoya?

I say that it's power of science(TM) and Nagisa and Ushio both did die and then both lived. Spent about a page talking of why that's the case too.

[andy7641]

For Fuuko's last scene:

Just think its Maeda Jun himself making a "Tsukomi" after he finished True Ending

which doesnt exist in the first Clannad version before releasing

and try to remind us how close to us the "Theme" is


By the way I found a great remix of Dango and The palm of tiny hand in youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcK4rp2At4M

Enjoy it


p.s ..sorry for my poor English

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by dgreater1

By the way, in episode 16, where Nagisa is about to fade away, that is a pivot of the story in which if you doubt yourself that you shouldn't have met Nagisa, Tomoya's happiness, you go straight to the BAD END. That's the KEY point, Tomoya himself is doubting his happiness that's why he couldn't achieve his true happiness. When he decided to call out to her, he accepted the fact that Nagisa is his happiness no matter what the outcome and that led him able to support Nagisa's existence.

So because Nagisa is his happiness regardless of what happens ("To love and to cherish, in sickness and in health") and he finally acknowledges this he gets to have a happier ending that involves her in his life again? I'm sorry but something seems weird about this. In order to end up on the path for him to learn this "lesson" the story ends up having to take her away from him, but in recognizing this "lesson" he is allowed to have her back? What is the point then of going through this and why does it have to happen in such a manner?

There's a contradiction in this somewhere that I really have a hard time putting into words, but I think this idea works better if he acknowledges her in his interactions with Ushio and taking on the father/daughter role, while letting go of but recognizing his time with Nagisa as precious then if she is ripped away from him and all of this happens in order to bring her back, because the "lesson" seems moot at that point.

Also if what you say was the case then was it even necessary for him to go through all of this in the first place only to end up back where he started given that it was essentially Nagisa dying that caused him to come to the conclusion that he'd have been better off without her in his life in the first place, for which according to you he was apparently punished in being denied her ressurection, which.....caused him to come to the conclusion for which he was punished and so on in a loop?

I must say that life lessons are best learned in having to live with the consequences of ones own mentality and actions (character building), not in the idea that suffering brings reward and restoration in the end, which comes across more like the writer jerking him around and toying with his and our emotions as a means to an end. After all it was this seemingly predetermined fate that pushed him down the path of denying his attachment to Nagisa in the first place such that I would I'd almost call it entrapment.

This idea you've mentioned (and that I disagree with) gets me a little closer to rationalizing what bothers me so much about the nature of this happy ending compared to if his bonding with Ushio had been used a way for him to acknowledge Nagisa's importance to him and to come to terms with her death, and what I call the convolution of themes. It also gets me wondering again what the purpose of taking Ushio away from his was as he seemed to be doing just that, learning his lesson through his interactions with her and getting on with his life.

[Tran225]

what happened to Nagisa/Ushio's death, Was it all a dream for Tomoya?

[radioIzzy]

^.^ This series has been enjoyable from start to end. I think the last episode did the series right.
I'm saddened that this series had to come to an end. But I'm happy everything worked out. What a wonderful series. ^^;

[Daniel E.]

To be perfectly honest, I am still not sure about liking the ending or not.

It was great to see Nagisa back as a happy mother; At the same time however, I was sorta expecting something else to happen at the end.

[dgreater1]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Snip.

I'll make this short

Choice 1: Call out to her (Cling to Hope that she survives)
Choice 2: Don't Call out to her (Doubt yourself that you shouldn't have met her)

Two choice different path. That's the whole idea.

Choice 1 path gives you a happy story.
Choice 2 path gives you a sad story.

IW is that reset button everyone is thinking about which is for me, not really a reset.

For me, there's no such thing as curse, punishment or anything similar. No one is denying Tomoya of his happiness. It's like Yin and Yang are one. 50% 50% of everything. Balanced happiness and sadness. Like I said, you've just witnessed different world (stories) of the Tomoya, the sad one and the bad one. If you picked up something from bad end one, then good, because hard experiences makes people stronger. You wouldn't find much lesson in a perfectly happy story if you know what I mean.

============

As for people complaining about the pacing, if you think the pacing could have been better then that's your problem not mine because for me (and probably most others), the pacing was fine.

============

I'll make a simple script on my thoughts.

DG1: I'll tell you a sad story
DG1 tells a kid of a sad story then after he finished he asks the kid...
DG1: Did you like the story?
KID: Yes, though it was kind of sad...
DG1: Did you learn anything from the story?
KID: Yes, I learned a bit.
DG1: Good, but, did you know that the story I told also dwells about having a Multiverse and that there's a story where they ended up living happily?
KID: Really?! I wanna hear that!
DG1: Okay, here it is.

Okay, I sound like a frigging father telling his son a story.

[Ascaloth]

@panzerfan,

"Any sufficiently advanced technology science is indistinguishable from magic." - The Ascaloth Paraphrase of Arthur C. Clarke's Third Law.

[Yukinokesshou]

Originally Posted by Ryuou

I don't really care about whether it could or couldn't have happened (I'm on the glad it did side). I don't have a problem with the realism vs fantasy element. My problem is with how it was handled, presented, delivered. I felt it could've been a lot stronger. Like how I felt 16 (most won't agree) could've been stronger, and 21 (most will agree) could've been stronger. Again, my problem is with the "telling" half of storytelling.

Is this directed at what I posted? Because I don't see the connection to your frustration.

In defence of Ryuou, I believe he has read and understood what Proto and the others have written. As he clearly mentioned, his does not have a problem with the ending itself. I think he does wish, however, that everything Proto, panzerfan and dgreater1 wrote was presented more clearly in the anime instead of requiring him to read their explanations on AnimeSuki for a better understanding

In that respect, I can sympathise with Ryuou even though I gave this episode a 10/10 rating. After all, I had the same sort of feeling as his after finishing Air (TV). The difference with Clannad is that I have actually played the VN (which is even more of a mystery, but having followed the story in two media, I think I understand it quite well now).

So please give the detractors some slack, people ^^

[Double_Edge]

Alright first off, I'm happy that they had a happy ending, really happy! But come on! In the words of Family Guy: "They totally just gave all of us the finger by making it a dream." What the hell was that?

So what, Tomoya still doesn't make peace with his father? He doesn;t come to terms with Ushio? He just bonds with her from the start? What the hell, everything was so beautiful, now it's....it's meaningless.

First time I watched the Ushio arc, it was sad, and I admit, some parts made me actually drop some tears. But when the American DVD's come out,.... I'll just watch it knowing it was all fake and instead of crying I will be like "Maaan...this some ol' boosh17!"

I'm happy knowing that things end happily for Tomoya's family but to be frank..... aside from the happy ending this episode was a total kick in the balls for me.

[Vegard Aune]

Originally Posted by Double_Edge

So what, Tomoya still doesn't make peace with his father?

Uh, yes, he does. He still went on that exact same trip where he eventually came to forgive Naoyuki, and if that doesn't make it clear enough, he's clearly shown visiting Shino afterwards... Also, the Chiisana Tenohira sequence ended by showing Tomoya and Naoyuki walking hand in hand through the fields.

[Yukinokesshou]

Originally Posted by Double_Edge

Alright first off, I'm happy that they had a happy ending, really happy! But come on! In the words of Family Guy: "They totally just gave all of us the finger by making it a dream." What the hell was that? [...] What the hell, everything was so beautiful, now it's....it's meaningless.

You, on the other hand... here's a bit of reading for you to do, all written by Proto:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=288
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=327
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=371
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=303

And to put everything into perspective, here's Ascaloth's summary:
http://www.riuva.com/?p=1388

Summary: It was not a dream and it was not meaningless -_____-
Everything had to happen in order to achieve this end.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

The ending gets kudos for tying pretty much everything up. Except for the stuff about just why the city had cursed Nagisa and Ushio and what anyone had done to change the city's mind on the matter, I can't think of any loose ends.

Just to add some details as it is often people's misconception: the town didn't "curse" Nagisa and Ushio.
Again, Nagisa was about to die years ago, and because of Akio frantic and desperate attempt, the town granted his wish and allowed Nagisa to leave, though afflicted by a weak state.
Because this is a literal "borrowed time", Nagisa died at the end of the delivery and the borrowed time "switched" to Ushio.

We can speculate that Ushio could live fine before because her existence is much smaller than Nagisa, but over time, she couldn't keep on and it is heavily implied that the changes on the city worsened its "magic".
What changed everything was the light orbs gathered from everyone else's happiness, and it was enough to grant that single wish which was unconsciously crippling Tomoya's mind, but got exposed completely as soon as Ushio died.


Of course, the anime series got more obscure about the "quest of the light orbs" as the true end shows up directly afterwards, while it is impossible in the visual novel. (It became natural in the Vn for the player to gather all orbs to finally create the miracle, however many times Tomoya had to went through hardship). The series seems to show there is only 1 "time loop", but originally speaking, Tomoya had to go several times, which is obviously impossible to realize that with the anime series.

[Tiberium Wolf]

For the ppl claiming that all that hardship time was just a dream. Care to explain when was Tomoya dreaming and how in the hell does a dream translate into experience? Well it doesn't... that is inconsistent.