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Old 2009-03-16, 15:22   Link #21
Keroko
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Except that momentum doesn't work like that. Ever tried to stop in mid-swing? It's impossible to stop immediately, and you're even exerting counterforce in stopping.

That's why I'd like someone who reads the novel to shed light on this.
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Old 2009-03-16, 15:26   Link #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Except that momentum doesn't work like that. Ever tried to stop in mid-swing? It's impossible to stop immediately, and you're even exerting counterforce in stopping.
We have joints. A giant, heavy, solid block of rock (what the golem become when Touma touched it) does not. The main, stationary body was too heavy and too firmly attached to the arm (there's your counterforce) at that moment for the moving arm to effect significant motion once the golem was de-animinated.
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Old 2009-03-16, 15:49   Link #23
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Except that the stance of the golem (right hand punch, right leg behind, bending over) does not allow for proper balance, much less proper counterforce, and by all means the fist should have carried on and dragged the golem down with it. And this is excluding the fact that the fist Touma stopped was weighted down more then the rest of its body prior to the punch.

Personally, I prefer to explain it the other way around. Touma could cancel the 'vector change' in the steel bars being thrown at him, but that still wouldn't change the fact that... well... those would be steel bars heading towards him. Gravity is a powerful mistress, and Vector Change or not, having a steel bar fall on top of you is going to cause serious pain.
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Old 2009-03-16, 19:10   Link #24
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^ I believe what others are saying is that the monster is drastically supplied by magic.
It's too bulky to move, and therefore needs constant source of power.

Vector change, on the other hand, only needs to work once.
After an object changes direction, or goes at twice the speed from the collision hax, it's no longer due to esper power.
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Old 2009-03-17, 13:32   Link #25
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honestly does anyone have the actual novel version of what happened in that scene as it could easily be a production oversight.

i'm leaning towards that the golems foward motion should have still caused it to crumple forward killing touma in the angle displayed by the anime even if the magic source was cut off.
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Old 2009-03-17, 20:02   Link #26
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His right hand cancelled gravity! Which means gravity is magic too?
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Old 2009-03-17, 21:04   Link #27
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I think from a physic perspective that the golem could not move the way it did and still hold to geather magic must have been caceling a lot of the forces acting on it. By touching it Touma stoped it's motion and since magic had to cancel a lot of the momentum before it stoped moveing Newton's first law took over.
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Old 2009-04-15, 11:29   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
Oh god, not another one. Look, Toma cannot stop the coin fired from Mikoto's railgun NO MATTER WHAT! That part from the Railgun manga (which you should posting about at the Railgun board BTW.) is not canon. I would like explain the reasons but it will take 2 much of my time, just see the previous posts at the Railgun manga board why the Railgun will hurt Toma.
TAMNI manga, chapter 2, around page 15:
Touma: "This right hand... this is the "Imagine Breaker"! It has an ability to negate any attacks or effects such as railguns and God's work"

In anime he also confirmed that he can stop the railgun.

I think that the reason why Touma ain't stoping objects thrown by Accelerator is because they are much heavier then a coin so even tough they woudn't hit him since the force would be nullified, they might still fall on him if they are at a certain angle when they are touched.
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Old 2009-04-15, 11:34   Link #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayrael View Post
TAMNI manga, chapter 2, around page 15:
Touma: "This right hand... this is the "Imagine Breaker"! It has an ability to negate any attacks or effects such as railguns and God's work"

In anime he also confirmed that he can stop the railgun.

I think that the reason why Touma ain't stoping objects thrown by Accelerator is because they are much heavier then a coin so even tough they woudn't hit him, they might still fall on him if they are at a certain angle when they are touched.
Nope, the Railgun manga artist made a mistake. Also in the anime and light novels, Mikoto has never fired her Railgun directly on Toma. Furthermore he cannot stop the Railgun just like how he cannot stop any object Accelerator "throws" at him.
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Old 2009-04-15, 11:55   Link #30
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Quote:
Nope, the Railgun manga artist made a mistake. Also in the anime and light novels, Mikoto has never fired her Railgun directly on Toma. Furthermore he cannot stop the Railgun just like how he cannot stop any object Accelerator "throws" at him.
You didn't read my post entirely, did you?

1. At no point did I mention Railgun manga
2. In both TAMNI manga and anime, Touma tells Index that he CAN stop railguns. I even gave you the chapter and page numbers.
Obviously, he has stoped the railgun before the bridge scene in anime and manga(which, as novels confirmed, was NOT their first meeting). Hopefuly, BT will translate novel #1, chapter 1 soon so we will be able to confirm if what he said to Index is canon.
3. If the scene with Index was translated well, then Touma doesn't nulify the ability, but the effect of the ability. Thus, he can nulify the acceleration created by psychic abilities. The difference betewen a coin and the objects that Accelerator threw at him is the fact that even if he stops those objects, some of them might fall on him.
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Old 2009-04-15, 11:59   Link #31
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not_this_shit_again.jpg

Maybe we should have a separate thread, just for this argument.

EDIT: Now we do!
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Old 2009-04-15, 12:07   Link #32
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I kinda agree... especialy since the same thing is discussed EVERYWHERE where TAMNI is concerned.
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Old 2009-04-15, 12:22   Link #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayrael View Post
You didn't read my post entirely, did you?

1. At no point did I mention Railgun manga
2. In both TAMNI manga and anime, Touma tells Index that he CAN stop railguns. I even gave you the chapter and page numbers.
Obviously, he has stoped the railgun before the bridge scene in anime and manga(which, as novels confirmed, was NOT their first meeting). Hopefuly, BT will translate novel #1, chapter 1 soon so we will be able to confirm if what he said to Index is canon.
3. If the scene with Index was translated well, then Touma doesn't nulify the ability, but the effect of the ability. Thus, he can nulify the acceleration created by psychic abilities. The difference betewen a coin and the objects that Accelerator threw at him is the fact that even if he stops those objects, some of them might fall on him.
Watch the 1st episode one more time. The coin fired by her Railgun never hit Toma, it just pass him. The manga quote was a mistake made by Hidoi translations. Also i confirmed this with other people who have read light novels in other forums and read the prologue chapter in the 1st novel myself, so let make this clear, I not gonna repeat this again, what i say is final and what most of us in this forum who read and watch To Aru Majustu no Index and it's sides stories agree.

Toma can never block Mikoto's Railgun. He will either get injured or die from it. Your sources are incorrect and your just assuming by your own conclusions. THIS THE FINAL TIME I GONNA SAY IT LIKE EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS BOARD HAS SAID BEFORE:

Toma. Cannot. Block. Mikoto's. Railgun.


No more questions. That's it. Over. Zip it.
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Old 2009-04-15, 12:51   Link #34
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I wanted to reply about how I never mentioned the bridge scene and that I mentioned the dialogue betewen Index and Touma in anime and mangawhen I, out of curiosity, checked the translated prologue and...

Quote:
As for my understanding, you used the spear-torpedo attack that sprang from your forehead and attacked at a speed that broke the sound barrier. But the instant it crashed into Kamijo's right hand, it scattered. To a degree, it was like punching a water balloon.

Imagine Breaker.

Like the laughing stock on television, in Academy City, those with superpowers are calculated with numbers. This strange power stops even God's miracles. The same goes for that girl's railgun attack. However, Kamijo's Imagine Breaker only operates on those strange talents. Simply put, it can stop the fireball itself, but not the concrete the fireball shattered. Also, the effect only works from the wrist up. if the fireball were to hit any other place, it would definitely burn me.

(Death. It's truly death. It'll truly be death. Kyaaaa!) Kamijo Touma's cool and composed face started contorting.

It was a complete accident that his right hand blocked that spear-tornado attack.

With his heart pounding, Kamijo acted like an adult and temporized.
In other words, are you telling me that Baka-Tsuki, anime producers and Hidoi made similiar error?

As for the Railgun manga canonnes, the author of TAMNI himself is part of the To Aru Kagaku no Railgun staff as he himself mentioned in the manga, probably the storymaker but I am not sure.

Last edited by Nayrael; 2009-04-15 at 13:03.
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Old 2009-04-15, 14:44   Link #35
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... Is it safe for me to assume that Touma can block the electricity current that accelerates the coin Mikoto used as a projectile but not the speeding coin itself?
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Old 2009-04-15, 14:49   Link #36
Keroko
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Until recently, yes. But now that we've discovered that all sources say that Touma can block Mikoto's Railgun blast? No. According to this interesting news (why we hadn't discovered this until now is beyond me ) Touma can block a Railgun blast, meaning that the moment he touches the coin, the entire acceleration process created by her powers is halted, and the coin is stopped.

The reason why he couldn't do the same with the steel bars being dropped on top of him was because... well... they were steel bars. Even if he did cancel their vector change, they were still steel bars. Steel bar + gravity = squishy Touma.

Since words don't seem to punch through, here are the screens/pages in question:

To Aru Kagaku no Railgun manga chapter 07 page 09:



To Aru Majutsu no Index manga chapter 02 page 15:



To Aru Majutsu no Index anime episode 01, 11:20 mark:



So it's final. All three sub-sources and the original novel have confirmed that Touma can block a Railgun blast from Mikoto.
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Old 2009-04-15, 14:50   Link #37
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Like many people here, I thought a lot about Touma's power and the way it works and the conclusion I came with is following: Touma can negate that what author wants him to negate and can't negate what author doesn't want him to negate. Also, all laws of physics, magic, Chuck Norris, etc. are nullified with the Imagine Breaker.

The other theory I have is that he can nulify any effect created by any ability, be it magical or psychic. Like fire and electricity, acceleration is just another effect created by an ability so acceleration is negated and the accelerated object is stoped and returned to the state it was before the ability affected it.
In other words, even if Touma can't stop a physicial attack, he can stop physical attacks created by an ability.
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Old 2009-04-15, 15:28   Link #38
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... So, let's put it like this:

Quote:
The other theory I have is that he can nulify any effect created by any ability, be it magical or psychic. Like fire and electricity, acceleration is just another effect created by an ability so acceleration is negated and the accelerated object is stoped and returned to the state it was before the ability affected it.
In other words, even if Touma can't stop a physicial attack, he can stop physical attacks created by an ability.
A pebble is being thrown at Touma's head without using any ability, just the normal physics laws of thrown projectiles. Touma stops it with his right hand (but didn't manage to catch it) ant the next thing we know of would be; Touma says "ouch." Because the pebble wasn't powered by any means of ability (be it magic or psychic) to be thrown at him, he gets affected by it.

Compare:

Misaka fires a railgun using a coin as a projectile at Touma. Touma's right hand goes up to attempt to block the projectile, and as soon as the projectile touches Touma his right hand instantly reduces the velocity of the coin to zero and thus preventing damage to Touma himself. Velocity reduction of the coin to zero was caused by it being launched towards him with an ability (Misaka's Railgun ability in this case).

OR:

The stone golem courtesy of Sherry Cromwell hurls a fist at Touma. Touma's right hand goes up to attempt to block the attack, and as soon as the golem's and Touma's hands make contact, the force of the golem's fist is instantly reduced to zero because the Golem itself was made of magic. And further goes the case of the Golem being possibly disintegrated into pebbles because of the magic used to bind its body parts together to form itself is being cancelled.

Would that be acceptable examples of cases?
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Old 2009-04-15, 15:43   Link #39
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I'd say it is.
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Old 2009-04-15, 15:47   Link #40
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Yes, it would.

The same would be with Misaka's lightning attacks:
When she creates lightning, it becomes lightning thus it is not magical or anything. Only its creation is supernatural. Thus, it is nullified because it was created by an supernatural ability.

If the theory is right, it would mean that he doesn't negate magic and abilities. He nulifies the effect created by anything supernatural.

If he ain't able to stop a railgun, then he shoudn't be able to stop Misaka's eletricity, Styl's fire and Accelerator's deflection because they are all one same thing: an effect created by ability, not magic itself. Like accelerated object, deflection, lightning and fire are all physicial once created.
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