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Old 2009-03-16, 12:49   Link #21
Mirrinus
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You know, simply saying that it's similar to Higurashi makes it so much easier for me to understand, as I already have an elaborate personal analogy for Higurashi. Thanks.
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Old 2009-03-17, 05:30   Link #22
Kinny Riddle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity View Post
I swear that this series has become work just to understand.
Depending on the level of your enthusiasm, it could either be work or passion, or just plain boredom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrinus View Post
You know, simply saying that it's similar to Higurashi makes it so much easier for me to understand, as I already have an elaborate personal analogy for Higurashi. Thanks.
Why, thank you. A rather flattering compliment, considering I've not seen a single episode of Higurashi, and only learned of its involvement with multiple time-loops through hearsays from the internets.
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Old 2009-03-17, 09:04   Link #23
SaintessHeart
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Actually I thought of Clannad as better than Higuarshi. Maybe it is the humane factor involved in this series that make it easier for me to understand.

I, for one, is somebody who graduated from high school a couple of years ago, and being someone who spent an extra year as compared to my peers, I would say that although my grades are not so good and I can't make it into college or university, high school is truly an experience to be remembered. Definitely all the friends made are not forever, it is certainly the events that happened, and the things done with them (mostly stupid, but not as bad as my middle school in which I had a few legal issues) that makes it something that I want to keep going forever.

Unless you have been total goody-two-shoes the entire of your high school life, school days are always experiences worth remembering when you become a member of society. I may still be the same rude, uncouth, stubborn and insulting person I was in the past, but the experiences I have made in school have made me who I am.

In a certain South East Asian country with a rather screwed up education system rather similar to Japan, it is not the content learnt during the lessons that make the students effective and useful members of the society, but rather, it is the experiences they had that made them that (apparently the semi-useless Ministry Of Education and certain principals likes to take credit for something they made a mess of, and the teachers had to clean up for them). Each student will come out differently, but if society is willing to give them a chance to prove themselves in the tools of trade they excel in, everyone benefits, and in order to do that, empathy is probably the most important thing that is required.

Likewise for everything one sees in life, it is important to play on the strengths that one has rather than constantly criticising the weaknesses he/she/it possesses. It takes incredible perception to see from all points, but the amount of experience one harnesses adds to the empathy one is able to give. It is a pity that disillusioned self-declared "pragmatists" and "realists" continue to discredit the fact that everyone is useful to the society.

If one has a heart, let him love. If one has no heart, but has a brain, teach him how to love. If one has no brain, no heart, but has a spirit, teach him how to fight in order to protect.

After all, it is what life really is. A coconut. And Clannad really puts it in the most optimistic way one can see. Even Tomoya lost almost everything he had by Episode 21, he was given a chance of redemption, and he took it, and all that convinced him to do it is to tweak his pessimistic outlook a little, as evident of his actions throughout the story to change the experiences and memories he had in his life.
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Old 2009-03-17, 11:16   Link #24
Ascaloth
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This just popped up on Sankaku Complex:

Spoiler for Tomoyo After END spoilers, MAJOR:


Clannad's Storyline Explained

It'll help fans of the ending to explain their stance better, it probably won't change the minds of non-fans in any case, but either way, I think this should be put into the OP.

EDIT: As monir advised, I have uploaded the image to my own Photobucket account. I'll keep the spoiler tag for the time being while I try to figure out how to post it in thumbnail....or perhaps a mod can assist me on this?

EDIT 2: Ok....this is as best as I do. Sorry, alcohol in the system really kills my thinking process. Can some mod out there finish the job for me?

EDIT 3: Bah, Proto pointed out the Tomoyo After spoiler, so I put it back in spoiler tag....please, someone, anyone, finish the job for me. -_-

Last edited by Klashikari; 2009-03-17 at 13:03. Reason: more accurate spoiler tag
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Old 2009-03-17, 11:48   Link #25
monir
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Asacloth, I can't see the image for whatever reason. Are you hotlinking? Upload it to any image hosting site (my favorite) and then post it in thumbnail form so dial-uppers don't curse and your children for the injustice.
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Old 2009-03-17, 12:10   Link #26
monir
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With all the episodes at hand, I resumed Clannad once again from episode 10 and marathon through the ending. I want to quote the brief talk Kotomi had in episode 16 about the "hidden world" by using SS-Eclipse's translation. I'll also omit the dialogues by other characters to keep her statement as whole:
"It's another world that exists right next to this one, but can't be seen or felt. But we are starting to find out that's not entirely true. It's probably akin to a warped extra dimension. The current theory states that what we perceive as objects are stuck firm to high dimension planes and they cannot remove themselves from their maximum existence. For example, energy due to gravity is said to transcend through dimensions. Time, space, and people's minds echo in a strange way to recreate both worlds or create whole new ones. They might be affecting each other like that."
And now Ushio's explanation in episode 22 about the Illusionary World/Hidden World to the robot (aka Tomoya). Once again, I'll forego most of the robot's dialogue and some of Ushio's response to keep things simple and straight to the point:
Ushio: I can finally hear your voice. I soon won't be a human so I can hear your voice. I was having a dream. I learned a lot of things in it. About myself. About you.... You and I used to be in the same world. We were very close, too. Long ago, though. Actually, we might still be.

Robot: So we weren't supposed to be in this world, after all! Let's go back together.

Ushio: In this world, I am the world. If I leave this world, this world will disappear. Then many lights would meet misery. Those are feelings from people in the other world. You were one of the lights too. The world that is the furthest, yet the world that is the closest. We've always been there. Yes, we came from the same place. We only see things differently.

Robot: Another world? Is an alternate me there?

Ushio: You should be able to tell, since you exist in both worlds. We were able to meet despite the differences in the world. You will soon fall asleep in the world and wake up in the other world. You will meet many people, and many things will happen. Then you'll eventually meet me. Like we can see people's feelings from the other world as light in this world, my feeling will become many lights in that world and shimmer. Each light may be very faint, but gathered together they should become a strong force.

*Ushio hums the Dango song.*

Robot: I know that song.
And finally, the little portion of the dialogues that goes along with the blurry background imagery of the town right after Tomoya hugs Nagisa in episode 22. Those portion of dialogues should fill in the blank for what is about to transpire and how the happy ending comes forth:
Nagisa: "Would you like me to take you to a place in this city where wishes come true?"

Tomoya in a deep voice that I think suppose to project a much older self to signify the flow of time in the other world: "It's coming to an end... the long, long journey..."

*Ushio cries after her birth. Tomoya wakes up with a start as if from a trance.*



When I put these three pieces of dialogue together, the ending starts to make sense.

- Everything that has happened up until episode 21 took place quite sometime in the past (or to quote Ushio from IW, "Long ago"). All those events are also from Tomoya's point of view. As we come to see, he has been pretty miserable through out his life. His mother died. His father has been pretty rotten to Tomoya as he wallowed himself in self pity, but was determined to take care of his son because Tomoya was his obligation. As a result, he drifted apart from Tomoya which adds to Tomoya's misery because he pretty much raised himself where he probably couldn't brag to his dad about that he took a dump all by himself. Tomoya meets his future wife and has lost her after giving birth to her. Then the daughter also dies eventually. The grief stricken Tomoya asks for a miracle as he holds her daughter's life-less body. He also specifically states, "No... I don't want this." As he lies down on the snow along with Ushio still in his arms, the screen starts to fade into whiteness. This is where Kotomi's explanation about the hidden world comes into play. To quote her:
"Time, space, and people's minds echo in a strange way to recreate both worlds or create whole new ones. They might be affecting each other like that."
The Illusionary World is a given premesis for this show. We need to accept it as fact to understand the rest of the ending. The creation of the world comes into play when Tomoya refuses to accept how his life has transpired thus far with the death of Ushio. His desire was so strong that he was able to transcend into the Illusionary world and attract Ushio's (aka Hidden World's) attention. Ushio helps him to change the direction of the event from the point where Nagisa gives birth to Ushio. And to do that, a new world needed to be created. In this new world Nagisa doesn't die at child birth. And Tomoya finally find happiness after a long, long journey through misery.

The last part where Fuko meets Ushio... now this is where I face roadblock to understand the last puzzle. Fuko is meeting Ushio for the first time after the creation of the world. My confusion is this world is Tomoya's or another world created by Fuko's desire to meet Ushio. If it is Tomoya's world, then Fuko is just taking a nap under the tree, and Tomoya-Nagisa are somewhere nearby. If it is Fuko's world, Ushio has made her appearance in this world just for Fuko.
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Last edited by monir; 2009-03-17 at 12:24.
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Old 2009-03-17, 12:17   Link #27
Proto
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Here is a thumbnail of an edited timeline without the spoiler


Feel free to replace it
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Old 2009-03-17, 12:18   Link #28
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Actually I thought of Clannad as better than Higuarshi. Maybe it is the humane factor involved in this series that make it easier for me to understand.
Spoiler for heavy spoiler regarding higurashi loops:


Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
The last part where Fuko meets Ushio... now this is where I face roadblock to understand the last puzzle. Fuko is meeting Ushio for the first time after the creation of the world. My confusion is this world is Tomoya's or another world created by Fuko's desire to meet Ushio. If it is Tomoya's world, then Fuko is just taking a nap under the tree, and Tomoya-Nagisa are somewhere nearby. If it is Fuko's world, Ushio has made her appearance in this world just for Fuko.
The last part has absolutely no explanation even in the game. Actually the game only shows IW Ushio, not the "normal" Ushio in her sailor uniform.

The general and usual theory is that, the miracle was powerful enough that it manages to bring back "Original Ushio" who is the last piece that should be drifting into nothingness after her job done.
It is unclear why she was appearing there, but it is very likely that Fuuko is somewhat related to this phenomenon due to her astral experience "remotely" similar to "original Ushio" existence.
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Old 2009-03-17, 12:22   Link #29
Proto
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That part is briefly touched upon on the CLANNAD Another story chapter, memories of a town. I encourage people to read it as it kind of explains how things fared out after the story ending for the Okazaki family.
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Old 2009-03-17, 12:33   Link #30
monir
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The last part has absolutely no explanation even in the game. Actually the game only shows IW Ushio, not the "normal" Ushio in her sailor uniform.

The general and usual theory is that, the miracle was powerful enough that it manages to bring back "Original Ushio" who is the last piece that should be drifting into nothingness after her job done.
It is unclear why she was appearing there, but it is very likely that Fuuko is somewhat related to this phenomenon due to her astral experience "remotely" similar to "original Ushio" existence.
We know the Hidden World's version of Ushio needs to stay there because as she said, she is the world. And if she leaves, the world disappears. So that can't be the Ushio from the Hidden World.

By the way, she did drift into "nothingness" as shown outside the window when Tomoya held the newly born Ushio. Those blue lights were drifting upward. As the Ushio from the Hidden World said, her feelings became many lights and were shimmering.

Ascaloth: Thumbnail has been added to your post. You and your children are saved! *cough - Ascaloth*
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Old 2009-03-17, 12:36   Link #31
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
We know the Hidden World's version of Ushio needs to stay there because as she said, she is the world. And if she leaves, the world disappears. So that can't be the Ushio from the Hidden World.

By the way, she did drift into "nothingness" as shown outside the window when Tomoya held the newly born Ushio. Those blue lights were drifting upward. As the Ushio from the Hidden World said, her feelings became many lights and were shimmering.

Asacloth: Thumbnail has been added to your post. You and your children are saved!
Thanks.

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Old 2009-03-17, 12:39   Link #32
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Actually, considering how the last scene was executed, it is showing the IW crumbling to send back Tomoya in the normal world. As far as I can see, the lights were gathered in the IW so far, until the journey was finally over.
Then only afterwards, the lights appeared back in the normal world, creating the miracle (synchronization with the town?).

IW Ushio had to remain as "the world" so that these lights wouldn't turn into despair, but since the lights were now used for the miracle, IW Ushio existence becomes rather moot as the "IW".
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Old 2009-03-17, 12:52   Link #33
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Is Tomoya going back to the hill really considered time travel? In the science fiction sense of the word I really don't consider it time travel and more of a wish being granted via metaphysical means? Especially when you consider time travel in the sense that say "back to the future" the time machine propose it as.
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Old 2009-03-17, 12:55   Link #34
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Is Tomoya going back to the hill really considered time travel? In the science fiction sense of the word I really don't consider it time travel and more of a wish being granted via metaphysical means? Especially when you consider time travel in the sense that say "back to the future" the time machine propose it as.
You can also count the "mental" time travel like shown in the movies "Butterfly Effect" or "Donnie Darko".
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Old 2009-03-17, 12:57   Link #35
Ithekro
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Or perhaps what is left of her and the IW become the Town in the remaining world. Thus the IW "ends" and IW Ushio is "reborn" into the world as Ushio. Thus she may or may not have some of those memories (Ushio has always seemed a little too good of a kid and always wondering off without anyone really bothering her). Add to this the scene with Fuuko...perhaps that is meant to mean that even IW Ushio found happiness and is within Ushio still, and thus why Fuuko can "smell" her and fleetingly sees the IW Ushio.

This would, by some definitions, mean that Ushio still is the world.
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Old 2009-03-17, 13:06   Link #36
Proto
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Quote:
(Ushio has always seemed a little too good of a kid and always wondering off without anyone really bothering her).
Huh? you think that is a big deal? On the Another story novel I linked...

Spoiler for CLANNAD Another story:
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Old 2009-03-17, 13:15   Link #37
Sheba
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Huh? you think that is a big deal? On the Another story novel I linked...

Spoiler for CLANNAD Another story:

Japanese must have a very romantic view of some countries. Because...


Spoiler:
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Old 2009-03-17, 13:17   Link #38
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Your sarcasm doesn't work well proto
Well honestly, I never considered that side story seriously, even if it is "canon". As you say, even 15-16 years old kids would have hard time to travel alone sometimes, so a grade schooler is basically suicide (as she isn't even sent to an acquaintance whatsoever).

Edit, Sheba: oh yeah, big time. It would be scary if she was sent to Paris. Somehow, Japanese are really too daydreaming about France, despite even the language has nothing that charming (spare me the usual crappy "langue de banlieu" and the rest..OTZ)
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Old 2009-03-17, 13:19   Link #39
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I'm going to give my interpretation as when I played the game. This may be right, it may be wrong, but it's what I thought until reading other interpretations.

Spoiler for Possible Game Spoilers?:


That is just how I interpreted it on my first playthrough. Though the explanations here make more sense. XD
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Old 2009-03-17, 13:24   Link #40
monir
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For reference purpose:

Ushio-IW: Ushio from Illusionary World
Ushio-RW: Ushio from Real World

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Actually, considering how the last scene was executed, it is showing the IW crumbling to send back Tomoya in the normal world. As far as I can see, the lights were gathered in the IW so far, until the journey was finally over.
Then only afterwards, the lights appeared back in the normal world, creating the miracle (synchronization with the town?).
I don't think the scene was meant to show IW's crumbling. The reason for that is when Ushio-IW said that she was starting to hear the robot's thought because she wouldn't remain in her human form much longer. Ushio was more of an avatar of the Illusionary World so the Illusionary World could better interact with the Robot-Tomoya. As Tomoya was being sent to the Real World, the job for the Ushio-IW's avatar came to an end. When Ushio crumbled, that's when the miracle started to happen. The lights' seen in the Real World after Ushio's birth is Ushio-IW's feelings which is also the sign of the miracle has successfully taken into effect.

Quote:
IW Ushio had to remain as "the world" so that these lights wouldn't turn into despair, but since the lights were now used for the miracle, IW Ushio existence becomes rather moot as the "IW".
Don't hurt me, but I think that's not correct either. Once again it was touched upon in the explanation by Ushio-IW and Kotomi in her Hidden World explanation. Ushio-IW said she was dreaming. She was learning about herself and the robot. It tells us that the Illusionary World made the Ushio-IW avatar by using lights from Ushio-RW. The lights are the projection of how people are seen in the Illusionary World. The lights are people's feelings.

If all those lights are indeed used to create the miracle, it doesn't mean more lights won't be transcending into the Illusionary World from there on. Hence, the existence of the Illusionary World is always a given. The need for its existence will be there as long as people's feeling are in constant flow. Surely, the need for miracle won't end with Tomoya's either. As a result, the Illusionary World continues with its barren existence.
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