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Old 2009-03-17, 11:58   Link #4061
Frostfire
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I always thought justifications for things connected to fictional characters were overrated anyway. xD
You need some of it, or we get to what started this whole mess to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I agree that R2 was far from perfect, but I'll clinge to my hope that the staff at least had some idea of what they were doing and just didn't bother to make it all that believable.
I am not that believing. The last arc was just handled far to poorly for me to believe that they actually tried. I think they did it to just finish off the god-awful mess they started, even though it would have made more sense to just end it with Charles' death. The show lost any real reason after that because Charles was the driving build up in the show. Lelouch dying could have, and was, handled well in one episode. There was no reason to even introduce the Damocles (out of nowhere) or the entire ending arc barring the very ending of that arc.

Guilford's sacrifice loses all meaning, Cornelia becomes a "wtf" character. Nunally gets derailed into the oblivion of idiocy. Characters stop making sense in general. The last arc was undoubtedly the worst part of the show.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Which is why we could talk about this forever and ever without getting anywhere. xD
I only require a character not to be boring in order to like them at least somewhat. If a chacracter is simply "evil", however, that's not given, and I'll move on.
/shrug

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Originally Posted by FruitsPunchSamurai View Post
I would think that the people involve would at least know what he was trying to do especially Jeremiah, also thanks for adding C.C.
I am going by what Okouchi confirmed. That amounts to Nunally, Kallen, Suzaku, C.C., though Jeremiah isn't listed, I assumed he was just a minor character to include. The rest are left with "figured some stuff out but not all of it".
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Old 2009-03-17, 12:04   Link #4062
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
You need some of it, or we get to what started this whole mess to begin with.
I thought the whole mess was started by people trying to justify the unjustifiable?
Oh well. xD

Quote:
I am not that believing. The last arc was just handled far to poorly for me to believe that they actually tried. I think they did it to just finish off the god-awful mess they started, even though it would have made more sense to just end it with Charles' death. The show lost any real reason after that because Charles was the driving build up in the show. Lelouch dying could have, and was, handled well in one episode. There was no reason to even introduce the Damocles (out of nowhere) or the entire ending arc barring the very ending of that arc.

Guilford's sacrifice loses all meaning, Cornelia becomes a "wtf" character. Nunally gets derailed into the oblivion of idiocy. Characters stop making sense in general. The last arc was undoubtedly the worst part of the show.
*shrugs*
I didn't think it was all that bad, but I can at least understand why some people are frustrated.
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Old 2009-03-17, 12:19   Link #4063
Frostfire
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I thought the whole mess was started by people trying to justify the unjustifiable?
Oh well. xD
Isn't that the same thing?

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
*shrugs*
I didn't think it was all that bad, but I can at least understand why some people are frustrated.
I think one of my friends said it best when they were watching the last arc of CG, "Where did CG go?"
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Old 2009-03-17, 12:22   Link #4064
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
Isn't that the same thing?
Trying to justify something that can't be justified and not trying to justify anything at all?
Nope, I'd say there's a difference.


Quote:
I think one of my friends said it best when they were watching the last arc of CG, "Where did CG go?"
lol. xD
My friends were more like: "You know, Damocles is actually an awesome name for that thing... even though the epic ending was kind of predictable..."
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Old 2009-03-17, 12:34   Link #4065
Levy
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@Frosty-chan: In wait of a Gino thread, just one little thing.... Lelouch went to war for a viable reason in ep.24? Not really.
He intendedly provoked the war reoccupying Japan with force and helding the representatives of the UNF as hostages.
He wanted to be wrong, to be considered a threaten to the world, sicne that was his plan to lure Schneizel out and push everyone against him.

Nice to see you aknowledging significant (positive?) changes in Villetta anyway =P

About Nunnaly we disagree again - also about the last arc in generall, it was not that bad, but oh well, personal tastes... - her dialogue with Lelouch in the last episode was a very nice development also for her character, not only for Lelouch: she get rid of her passivity and kicked her brother where he need to be kicked - aka, using her as an alibi for his own desires and wishes.
She was the character better portrayed in the last arc, together with Lelouch, IMO.

@FruitsPunchSamurai&Blade - I agree with the Vizard, it's not required that Jeremiah'd tell Anya something about ZR.
For the man Jeremiah is, and aswer like "I served my master till the end. Period" ia quite a predictable answer, and Anya was never curious.
hell, she has a photo of little Lelouch and never asked anyone about that... ^^;

Also, I don't think Tohdoh got anything more than the fact that the new Zero is Suzaku. Unless someone provides him further details, he might even think that Suzaku acted on his initiative, and Lelouch was really evil, a vision that I think is more fitting to his own perception of both the boys.
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Old 2009-03-17, 12:37   Link #4066
bladeofdarkness
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For the man Jeremiah is, and aswer like "I served my master till the end. Period" ia quite a predictable answer,
there is a reason why the "i just followed orders" defense doesnt work you know
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Old 2009-03-17, 12:41   Link #4067
Frostfire
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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
@Frosty-chan: In wait of a Gino thread, just one little thing.... Lelouch went to war for a viable reason in ep.24? Not really.
He intendedly provoked the war reoccupying Japan with force and helding the representatives of the UNF as hostages.
He wanted to be wrong, to be considered a threaten to the world, sicne that was his plan to lure Schneizel out and push everyone against him.
They refused to treat Britannia fairly, that's usually a very valid reason to start a war. Schneizel, as the man said himself, was lured out when Lelouch took power. He would have come out on his own, and did. But for the pretenses of the war, they are very valid for Britannia because they were being treated unfairly by the diplomats that put Lelouch in a cage when talking to him.

Further, I said that Lelouch's public evil does not start until after he takes over the world. It is not until after that that he becomes the demon Emperor. Prior to that he is the Emperor of Justice, and on that pretense, he can easily be said to have been fighting for the justice of Britannia that would have been oppressed had the deal gone through.

So like I said, Gino opposes the "good britannia" both times on his own ideology of what should be Britannia.

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About Nunnaly we disagree again - also about the last arc in generall, it was not that bad, but oh well, personal tastes... - her dialogue with Lelouch in the last episode was a very nice development also for her character, not only for Lelouch: she get rid of her passivity and kicked her brother where he need to be kicked - aka, using her as an alibi for his own desires and wishes.
She was the character better portrayed in the last arc, together with Lelouch, IMO.
Its not her chat at the end that's retarded, its her willingly killing millions of people to stop her brother. Her brother didn't even kill thousands of people, she killed millions. That's pure retardation unless her plan was to stop Lelouch by killing everyone before he got the chance to.

Not to mention that her super-power was the most contrived plot device ever.
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Old 2009-03-17, 12:51   Link #4068
Frostfire
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Originally Posted by Gebs- View Post
Her plan was the same as Lelouch's. As he is talking with her in the Damocles, she tells him that the Damocles will become a symbol of hatred. It was only then that Lelouch was able to justify geassing her to give him the key. So based on that, if her plan was founded upon retardation, then so was Lelouch's (I'm not saying it wasn't).
But Lelouch's plan also included fixing the world first by dissolving the areas system and Britannia. he actually laid out ground work for making the world fix itself after he did his evil crap after taking over all of it.

Nunally just blew up shit to become hated, her plan is missing a key base, and is fundamentally retarded.
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Old 2009-03-17, 12:53   Link #4069
Levy
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You think it won't work also with someone as apathetic as Anya...?

I can see her getting bored with Jeremiah's speeches - he's a bit ... energetic and overdramatic, you know.. the PD with Villetta XD; - and I don't know why she would want to know that badly.

But yeah, Anya is one of the biggest point unanswered in the epilogue... does she changed in the moment she get back her memories? From her apathetic look also in the orange farms, probably not, but who knows..? it's hard to tell...

anyway, she's one of the few people I can se reacting with a "ah.. *shrug*" either if she's told the whole ZR in detail, or she's not told anything at all ^^;


@Frost: 1) Lelouch is the founder of the system in the UNF. He did on purpose an unacceptable request and reacted with violence to the refusal of the UNF - Suzaku rushing with the Albion inside the hall is not the best tool of diplomacy - and there he started to threaten them helding the represantative hostages.
He wanted the UNF to engage a war against him, and he did his best in order to accomplish that. His reasons were not valid because he, in first place, did want to look as dangerous as he could on purpose, and acted accordingly...

Before that stage, his tiranny was more ambiguos, since he did something that can be considered an improvement of the older system, like cancelling nobility and freeing areas, but he also eliminated with murder all of his oppositors inside Britannia, and that's not something I will find reassuring.... XD;

2 )That's not the only reason why Nunnaly accepted to press the button of the Damocles key. Nunnaly wants to do the same thing Lelouch wants: conveying all the hate of the world on the Damocles so that the the world would have united against it. It's what she said and what Lelouch understood before geassing her in the last episode.
Edit: you can't expect her to have the same level of planning of that smartass of her brother, but at least she did not do that only to punch Lelouch, as you said in your previous post.

And the lame superpowahhh.. she has it from before the last arc.
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Old 2009-03-17, 12:58   Link #4070
Frostfire
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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
@Frost: 1) Lelouch is the founder of the system in the UNF. He did on purpose an unacceptable request and reacted with violence to the refusal of the UNF - Suzaku rushing with the Albion inside the hall is not the best tool of diplomacy - and there he started to threaten them helding the represantative hostages.
He wanted the UNF to engage a war against him, and he did his best in order to accomplish that. His reasons were not valid because he, in first place, did want to look as dangerous as he could on purpose, and acted accordingly...
1.) They put him in a cage which was greeted with dismay from the other diplomats. They treated Lelouch like shit.
2.) It doesn't matter if he was playing the system or not, but he had justifiable reason for his war because they were intending to treat Britannia as a minority. In fact, the system that he designed was based on representation based on population, but the diplomats refused it because Britannia would have a majority. The system was actually on Lelouch's side in that diplomacy, they turned it down. Hence, they threw out diplomacy before he did.

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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
Before that stage, his tiranny was more ambiguos, since he did something that can be considered an improvement of the older system, like cancelling nobility and freeing areas, but he also eliminated with murder all of his oppositors inside Britannia, and that's not something I will find reassuring.... XD;
He didn't even have any tyranny prior to it. None. EVERYONE LOVED HIM. You don't get the title of Emperor of Justice by being a tyrant, you're argument has a massive hole in it. What he did behind the scenes was never out in the public. NO ONE KNEW ABOUT IT. Least of all Gino who was god-knows where.

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2 )That's not the only reason why Nunnaly accepted to press the button of the Damocles key. Nunnaly wants to do the same thing Lelouch wants: conveying all the hate of the world on the Damocles so that the the world would have united against it. It's what she said and what Lelouch understood before geassing her in the last episode.
And again, she's missing the whole fixing the world part. She was just blowing it up. Don't compare her idiocy to Lelouch's actual plan.
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Old 2009-03-17, 13:19   Link #4071
rave
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Is this the Gino thread? Why people try to have a debate with clearly biased Gino anti fans? It is obvious what the result of this will be. Gino was not a moral character but he was not the ultimate evil with no redeeming qualities at all. For a very shallow character as people label him, you give too much attention. I am gonna have a debate with a hardcore CluClu (lol) fan about how Kalulu got more romantic scenes. Will they ever listen to me? No. Levy stop trying to prove that Gino is not the satan to Frost. No point.
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Old 2009-03-17, 15:08   Link #4072
yvj
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Boredom question of the week

If Li Xingke is supposedly equal to Lelouch in strategy why couldn't he wade through most of Schneizel's bull.

Who knows maybe he could have gotten Schneizel to talk to a slide show of an oil paining instead of a video


Or maybe he could have gotten some insight on Emperor Lelouch or something.

IDK just throwing out there. I know the illness nerfed his godlike abilities but for someone said to equal Lelouch in strategy and Suzaku in strength. He could/should have been more of a major player than what he was.
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Old 2009-03-17, 15:47   Link #4073
Levy
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Sure thing, but it seems Xingke knew that the warpower of Schneizel is something they need to fight on par with Lelouch's Britannia and that they have no other option than ac cept Schneizel help if they want to stand a chance against Lelouch.

it's a problem they had already in the battle of Tokyo, before Karen was freed, and moerove in the ending, the BK army is not strong enough, not now that the Albion can counterbalance the Guren Seiten.

anyway, I agree with you that Xingke did not show a lot of his supposed abilities out of the China arc XD;


@rave: now this is a constructive advice, I'll keep that in mind XD
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Old 2009-03-17, 16:03   Link #4074
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Sure thing, but it seems Xingke knew that the warpower of Schneizel is something they need to fight on par with Lelouch's Britannia and that they have no other option than ac cept Schneizel help if they want to stand a chance against Lelouch.
I understand that but being on the short side of firepower didn't cause Lelouch or Schniezel to flinch that much especially if they had free time to think. For all we know Schneizel was completely focused on Lelouch and vice versa maybe Li could have done some behind the scenes work. Or maybe he was too noble to try anything beside face to face confrontations.

Lelouch vs Schniezel was very much a case of choosing what you believed to be the lesser of two evils. You would think Li wouldn't stand just stand for that. Maybe he could have had a plan to try and let them destroy each other than throw his weight around.

It is kind of interesting that Li could have had the stuff to compete with Lelouch and Schniezel yet unlike them he doesn't feel like "He could do better" than the rulers around him nor did he have as much interest in changing the world.

Ah why give him so much and have him do little?
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Old 2009-03-17, 16:58   Link #4075
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
And again, she's missing the whole fixing the world part. She was just blowing it up. Don't compare her idiocy to Lelouch's actual plan.

Actually, Leouch's plan to fix the world through mass murdering doesn't seem that bright to me either. Also, to dissolve the status quo and the only superpower existent was likely to bring only chaos to the world. And to die after that leaving that mess to... who? Suzaku? That's even more idiotic.
While a giant floating castle able to hit enemies everywhere is actually a more effective way to reach the world's order and peace with an unilateral balance of terror.
Theoretically speaking, her and Schnizel plan was way more intelligent than Lelouch's plan. Morally... well, the death toll would have been enormous in both cases. Still, theoretically, her plan had an higher probability of success. So, it was perfectly acceptable.
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Old 2009-03-17, 17:10   Link #4076
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But Schneizel's plan involved keeping Damocles in place in order to maintain peace through fear, which would deny people the ability to create their own future. It was essentially a less malevolent version of Kefka's Light of Judgment, for those of you familiar with Final Fantasy VI.

Not to mention that Lelouch wasn't simply leaving the future in Zerozaku's (and Nunnally's) hands. He left an obedience Geassed Schneizel behind as the brain trust.
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Old 2009-03-17, 17:14   Link #4077
Frostfire
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Originally Posted by Atlantis_Lux View Post
Actually, Leouch's plan to fix the world through mass murdering doesn't seem that bright to me either. Also, to dissolve the status quo and the only superpower existent was likely to bring only chaos to the world. And to die after that leaving that mess to... who? Suzaku? That's even more idiotic.
Except that by the point where he is shown as effectively being the Emperor he had already destroyed the status quo, balanced the power in Britannia, erradicated the Area system. How did he do this? By making the royalty and nobility all obey him, he changed the system without upheaval because only a handful of people opposed him and he disposed of them. That is why he is loved as the Emperor of Justice until he takes over the world and turns into a public douche bag.

The retardation in his plan is that it is stupidly short term and that it won't work TWO MONTHS after a global war, but the manner in which it was carried out was actually effective, though entirely unneccessary.

Quote:
While a giant floating castle able to hit enemies everywhere is actually a more effective way to reach the world's order and peace with an unilateral balance of terror.
Theoretically speaking, her and Schnizel plan was way more intelligent than Lelouch's plan. Morally... well, the death toll would have been enormous in both cases. Still, theoretically, her plan had an higher probability of success. So, it was perfectly acceptable.
Except that that was not her plan, that was Schneizel's plan. Cornelia and Nunally were both under the impression that they were going to stop Lelouch from destroying the world, not destroy it themselves. That was why Cornelia got shot. That is why blowing up the captial and killing god knows how many people makes no sense to me. Neither of them were part of Schneizel's plan but they more than willingly blew up a city with millions in it.

Nunally's plan was just to get bloodied and more hated than Lelouch. She had no world reform in mind.
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Old 2009-03-17, 17:23   Link #4078
Atlantis_Lux
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But Schneizel's plan involved keeping Damocles in place in order to maintain peace through fear, which would deny people the ability to create their own future. It was essentially a less malevolent version of Kefka's Light of Judgment, for those of you familiar with Final Fantasy VI.

Not to mention that Lelouch wasn't simply leaving the future in Zerozaku's (and Nunnally's) hands. He left an obedience Geassed Schneizel behind as the brain trust.

I know, in fact I wrote that the order would have reached through fear. Because I do not believe in the inherently ability of human race to create their own, and peaceful future. Lelouch obviously does, I think. Still, I fear that the ending was like that because the plot required it. But from a realistic point of view, the sudden disappearance of the only power who granted (though fear) the world order would have been a disaster. As much as happened after the dissolving of the Soviet Union.

Yeah, Lelouch left the future also in Nunally and Schneizel's hands. But what was the Designated Heir before they appeared? Only Sukazu, I suppose, since Lulu didn't know that Nunally was alive, so she wasn't part of the plan from the start.

Uhmm...
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Old 2009-03-17, 18:00   Link #4079
Kaioshin Sama
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Okay I have to ask, what is this very specific "two months" thing that some people keep bringing up about Zero's Requiem?
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Old 2009-03-17, 18:11   Link #4080
morbosfist
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Okay I have to ask, what is this very specific "two months" thing that some people keep bringing up about Zero's Requiem?
The very short timeskip between "World, obey me" and "Zero Zero Zero!" cheers by a no longer oppressed populace.
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