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Old 2009-03-17, 21:13   Link #401
kagato3
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Well we know the swords are literaly part of a shinigami's soul and they can be lent to others (Ichigo was useing Rukia's up untill he got his own powers), inherited (tousen is useing his dead friend's), and stolden (ok we have only seen this in fillers but both Renji and Ichigo have had theirs taken by the mod souls and Nel did steal Ichigo's)
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Old 2009-03-17, 21:36   Link #402
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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
Well we know the swords are literaly part of a shinigami's soul and they can be lent to others (Ichigo was useing Rukia's up untill he got his own powers)
Is he really? In episode 2 that sword look completely different from the small, white sword that Rukia uses in HM.
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Old 2009-03-17, 22:36   Link #403
kagato3
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Originally Posted by Meisterdieb View Post
Is he really? In episode 2 that sword look completely different from the small, white sword that Rukia uses in HM.
The small white sword is here released form. Ichigo never even knew about shaki untill part way through the SS arc. Compare the hilts on her unreleased sword and the frist sword he used. It was her sword just massively bloated do to the fact that he is both massively more powerful and realy had no way of controling it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
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Old 2009-03-17, 22:45   Link #404
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who knows he might of knight for yorichi or someone noble who know maybe just go sick of doing this work and left or might have been cast out or he simply left if so then when Stealth remote squad should of seen ichigo dad fighting against imperfect arrancar
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Old 2009-03-17, 23:51   Link #405
sakuraame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
The small white sword is here released form. Ichigo never even knew about shaki untill part way through the SS arc. Compare the hilts on her unreleased sword and the frist sword he used. It was her sword just massively bloated do to the fact that he is both massively more powerful and realy had no way of controling it.
Sorry for continuing an off topic question, but I was wondering if you knew how Zangetsu fits into the equation. The sword that he has when he gets out of the shattered shaft, before yelling out Zangetsu's name and thus changing the zanpakutou to look like what it does now, is the same one that he used when he first got Rukia's shinigami powers. The guard design is the same as his first sword and as Rukia's. (Ch. 66, Pg. 6)

It makes more sense if he was using Sode no Shirayuki in the beginning, but why does Zangetsu look like Sode no Shirayuki here when he doesn't have her powers anymore? I end up arguing myself into a loop when thinking about it. Any insights? I was always a little confused and it threw me for a loop when I realized all three swords (Rukia's sealed zanpakutou, Ichigo's first zanpakutou and Ichigo's zanpakutou coming out of the shattered shaft but before learning Zangetsu's name) all had the same guard design.
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Old 2009-03-18, 00:23   Link #406
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<EDIT>

Quote:


Terminology made simple
</EDIT>

There is a very logical explanation to this if you compare Ichigo's Zanapkuto from chapter Chapter 66 to the one cut in in two by Byakuya in Chapter 55, the cut is at the exact same place . When he emerges from shaft he has the same Zanapakuto its the reminiscent of that Zanapkuto NOT Zangestsu .

Zanegstu is more like a cleaver while ichigo's zanapkuto was more so like a butter knife . Urahara cut ONLY the blade and cross guard . But when Zangetsu is called out the new Zanapkuto that emerges has an entire different Hilt (Pommel and Grip)

Ichigo original sword's Pommel has ribbons and his Hilt had Cross Hatchings / Decorations . If it was the same zanapakuto it would have remained as Urahara didn't touch any of these two parts . Then there is also the different type of Blade

Before : (Pommel Ribbons) (Grip Cross-Hatching / Decoration)

After : (No Pommel) (Bare Grip)

Urahara only cut the blade and cross gaurd NEVER the Hilt (Pommel and Grip)
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Old 2009-03-18, 01:42   Link #407
sakuraame
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Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
There is a very logical explanation to this if you compare Ichigo's Zanapkuto from chapter Chapter 66 to the one cut in in two by Byakuya in Chapter 55, the cut is at the exact same place . When he emerges from shaft he has the same Zanapakuto its the reminiscent of that Zanapkuto NOT Zangestsu .

Zanegstu is more like a cleaver while ichigo's zanapkuto was more so like a butter knife . Urahara cut ONLY the blade and cross guard . But when Zangetsu is called out the new Zanapkuto that emerges has an entire different Hilt (Pommel and Grip)

Ichigo original sword's Pommel has ribbons and his Hilt had Cross Hatchings / Decorations . If it was the same zanapakuto it would have remained as Urahara didn't touch any of these two parts . Then there is also the different type of Blade

Before : (Pommel Ribbons) (Grip Cross-Hatching / Decoration)

After : (No Pommel) (Bare Grip)

Urahara only cut the blade and cross gaurd NEVER the Hilt (Pommel and Grip)
Sorry to play devil's advocate, but I just want to make sure that I get everything.

I hadn't picked up on the fact that the blade that Ichigo emerged out of the shattered shaft with was in the same condition as the one from his encounter with Byakuya. They can't be the same blade because Ichigo was using Sode no Shirayuki before and Ichigo was relieved of her powers when Byakuya injured him. But why have Ichigo come out with a sword reminiscent of his days with Rukia's powers when he obviously doesn't have her powers anymore? Why not just have him come out with a normal katana? Visual impact? If it is solely for visual impact and to emphasize Urahara literally hacking away at his former self, it really threw my plot logic for a loop.

I was also under the impression that the hilt of a blade included the cross guard, that the cross guard + grip + pommel = hilt. Double checking on wikipedia, that's what it says too.

But even if that weren't the case, I'm not sure I follow your point on the fact that Urahara only cut the blade and guard and never the pommel and grip. Even if Urahara didn't cut these parts, I believe that they would have changed along with the pommel and grip when Ichigo called out Zangetsu. Many shinigami seem to only seal the blade, thus retaining the hilt when they release (Byakuya, Renji, Kira, Matsumoto, Hinamori etc.) but there are others whose entire sword changes when released, thus changing the hilt along with the blade (Rukia, Shunsui, Ukitake, Urahara, Soi Fon, Hitsugaya (addition of pommel), etc.) so the appearance of an entirely different hilt isn't unseen.

I'm almost positive that the blade that Ichigo comes out of the shattered shaft with is Zangetsu, it just doesn't look like a cleaver because Ichigo hadn't learned/fully heard/acknowledged (take your pick) Zangetsu's name yet. Plus, zanpakutou are tied to one's soul, and that was the blade that Ichigo pulled out of the box in his soul while in the shattered shaft (Ch. 63, Pg. 16). If shikai is level 1, then I see the butter knife as level 0. I'm sure Shinigami Academy students deal with their zanpakutou's at level 0 too, I wouldn't expect them to learn shikai right away.

Does that clarify my confusion? And if I go the other route and try to say that Ichigo was using Zangetsu at level 0 from the beginning and Rukia's powers were just the vehicle that allowed him to use Zangetsu before he developed his own shinigami powers, it doesn't explain why the cross guard looks the same as Rukia's.

AAAA... my brain hurts...
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Old 2009-03-18, 02:46   Link #408
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Per the captain of the 12th a Zanapakuto is easy to repair as long as the guard and grip remain intact.

What he came out of the shaft with was just the broken remains of Sode no Shirayuki and Urahara desroyed even the guard of it so only the grip remained. It was at that time that Zangetsu as why he hadn't called(summoned) him.
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Old 2009-03-18, 03:05   Link #409
sakuraame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
Per the captain of the 12th a Zanapakuto is easy to repair as long as the guard and grip remain intact.

What he came out of the shaft with was just the broken remains of Sode no Shirayuki and Urahara desroyed even the guard of it so only the grip remained. It was at that time that Zangetsu as why he hadn't called(summoned) him.
Did you hear that? That was the sound of things falling into place. Thanks for explaining things to me, especially in a thread not talking about either Ichigo or Rukia. Don't you love it when things make sense? Thank goodness for smart people like you who pay attention. Thanks again!

P.S. I did a big mental "OOOOOHHH!" of realization. And this is me right now because I'm happy.

EDIT:
Coupled with Geta Boshi's speculations in the "Rukia's Zanpakutou" thread, I actually have two theories on this topic, both of which I believe work.

1. Ichigo emerges with the remains of Sode no Shirayuki and Zangetsu doesn't come out until he is called. (thanks kagato3!)

2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geta Boshi
SPECULATION: There is a high possibility of Ichigo Shinigami powers coming in contact with Rukia's Shinigami power via reatsu as he was unleashing his reatsu . And reatus is soul power / spirit power

So Ichigo emerged carrying a reminiscent of Rukia zanapakuto .
Quote:
Originally Posted by sakuraame
Actually, coupled with your speculation I could still make an argument that Ichigo emerges with Zangetsu: because of Rukia's influence on his reiatsu, Zangetsu first takes the form of Rukia's zanpakutou because Ichigo still hasn't called him yet. After Ichigo calls him, Zangetsu drops Sode no Shirayuki's appearance and presents his own.

For me those are both satisfactory answers and I have no qualms about either. I find that they are both logically sound and doesn't really change anything plot wise if I pick one over the other.
After continuing to think it over, I actually lean more towards explanation 2 because it helps support the fact that Rukia's powers have left him, and that the only thing that remains is an appearance, and not even let overs of Sode no Shirayuki. I also think explanation 2 might be stronger because that would mean Ichigo regained his shinigami powers by pulling out Zangetsu and not by pulling out remains of Sode no Shirayuki.
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Last edited by sakuraame; 2009-03-18 at 05:33.
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Old 2009-03-25, 16:25   Link #410
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I didn't want to read through 13 pages of posts. So, has anyone posted that he might have been the captain of squad 0?
Only reason I think that is because the top 3 Captains would have recognized the last name Kurosaki. Also you are not allowed to retire from the 13 squads as we saw with the den of maggots. Also the soul reapers watch the quincy and I'm sure they would have seen Isshin associating with Ryūken.

Last edited by FanFan; 2009-03-25 at 19:52.
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Old 2009-03-27, 01:56   Link #411
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In response to the topic of who is Isshin Kurosaki I would have to believe that he is
possibly a branch member of the Shiba clan, albiet obvious the physical resembelance.
But also his personality ressembles Kukaku Shiba very closely he may have been a brother
by marriage or something. As for the Isshin to Kaien thing its possible but unlikely.
For his rank as a captain and no one in the current Gotei 13 knows him brings about
only two scenarios, one he only knew a few other captains like Urahara before leaving the SS. Or he was something like a Ichigo an exception to the SS rules but instead of being just an ordinary captain was place directly into Squad Zero similiar to how Hitsuguya is a child prodigy.
Another possiblity comes to mind he may have be involved with Aizen's research of hollowfication / Orb of distortion from the beginning and after learning of it's extent tried to distance himself from Aizen. For whatever reason it then prompts him to leave SS for good and takes his wife's name as a means of concealing he left in the first place. As for the timing of this it had to happen prior to the Visored Incident because Shinji did not recognize
his presence.
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Old 2009-03-27, 06:17   Link #412
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Originally Posted by TakumiFuji View Post
For his rank as a captain and no one in the current Gotei 13 knows him brings about
only two scenarios
We dont know this is true. None of the shinigami in the SS arc really related themselves to Urahara. Mayuri is fairly close to Urahara if you think about it (Urahara letting him out of jail to persue his hobby, ergo giving him his purpose back, even for someone as wierd as Mayuri that would mean alot). No one once spoke about it, maybe for fear of death. So if Isshin did indeed break Soul Society law I guess it would be brushed under the carpet like everything else that happened. In the pedulum arc Urahara got punished for forbidden research along with Tessai for using forbidden techniques.

My point being that the bad things are brushed aside and no one ever speaks of them. My guess is that Yamma knows the name Kurosaki along maybe a few other people and they wont speak of it because he really pissed off central 46. For all we know discussing past offenses that have resulted in banishment could result in more punishment for the people discussing it.

OR Kurosaki may be an assumed name, and Isshin could may well have been the captain that got promoted to the zero squad at the beginning of the pendulum arc.
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Old 2009-03-27, 07:12   Link #413
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OR Kurosaki may be an assumed name, and Isshin could may well have been the captain that got promoted to the zero squad at the beginning of the pendulum arc.

Shinji would've noticed his reiatsu then cos he was a captain back then. And that captain was Hiyori's so loved captain, Hiyori for sure would've noticed him in the same town.
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Old 2009-03-27, 08:05   Link #414
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Quote:
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OR Kurosaki may be an assumed name, and Isshin could may well have been the captain that got promoted to the zero squad at the beginning of the pendulum arc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashda2k6 View Post
Shinji would've noticed his reiatsu then cos he was a captain back then. And that captain was Hiyori's so loved captain, Hiyori for sure would've noticed him in the same town.
The major hole in that theory is that the captain promoted to zero squad was a woman
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Old 2009-03-27, 08:16   Link #415
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-.- oops... that was just a spur of the moment theory, didn't really think it thru. Thanks for making it all make sense. The part about Shinji sensing his rieatsu wouln't make sense since he didnt have a rieatsu for Shinji to sense (re-cooperating powers), back when he downed the Grand Fisher Shinji was with Ichigo so theres a good chance Ichigo was masking senses since he has poor control over releasing his rieatsu during combat.

But I'm pretty sure that Isshin has some sort of bad history with SS whether hes been framed or not. The captain garb maybe the way the royal guard have to wear it (you would think a kings guard would have strict rules on uniform just look at society all through the ages). His powers had to re-cooperate, and Urahara was sentenced to his powers getting drained and banished to the real world. This probably mirrors Isshin's former circumstances/sentence to get him into the real world in the first place.

Last edited by Skyring; 2009-03-27 at 08:18. Reason: added info ^^
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Old 2009-04-01, 20:41   Link #416
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It's all fine and great guessing blindly what Isshin may have been, but that's not really helpful and if you're just going to make stuff up without any basis in what we have seen then you might as well propose that Isshin is actually Aizen's master who put Aizen on that job because he's angry that Yamamoto kicked him out of SS those centuries ago.

Back to reality:
I think that TK has given us hints as to Isshin real identity. And I'm gonna try to use only scenes or events or items that we have actually seen.
What do we know? What have we seen?

1) Isshin appears with captain's hadori
2) Quite knowledgeable about SS/vaizards etc
3) He and Urahara know each other and -this is important- show respect for each other (i.e. Urahara is not his usual silly/mischievious self)

A) In the TBTP arc we never see all the captains. Every time they come together 2 captains are missing.
B) Someone here said Shinji didn't recognize Isshin's reiatsu. That's true, but then again when they were fighting Kensei and co, they didn't recognize their reiatsu either.
C) Urahara has the knowledge to mask or erase reiatsu (with the cloak or the special gigai)


So the question is, why would TK show us Isshin in a captain's hadori - and acting the way, if he would then simpl,y turn around and go "Ha! Fooled ya, Isshin is actual Santa Claus" (or something equally absurd).
If you look back through the episodes, if TK has dropped similar hints then they were followed through (otherwise they wouldn't have been hints - more like red herrings)
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Old 2009-04-01, 21:04   Link #417
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I would say I'd believe in the SS King Theory. Kubo's just been like that with Ichigo the whole plot, by showing that Ichigo's not ordinarry and that fact that he has been rapidly gaining in ability and power the whole series. Isshin is not only unknown to Soul Society as a missing person, but Isshin must've either apart of SS and left before Rukia became a shinigami over a hundred ago or ruled them. I'd say the latter, because since Renji and Byakua found Rukia in the gigai she had that gave off no reiatsu, why didn't they find Isshin, especially since Isshin would've been gone at least since around the time that Urahara became a captain and thus had barely begun the DRT in his captain's quarters. A unknown king would never show up on records, so they would never go to find him in the first place.

The only thing bothering me is if Ishhin is the King of Soul Society and Ichigo is the prince, why aren't they in the King's dimension, where the King's Key is supposedly supposed to lead to, unless it just leads to the human world where Isshin lives, which is unlikely. If he is the unknown king, maybe there was a coup de ta and Isshin was thrown out of power, which explains for the second Bleach movie where the Royal Family was suppoedly in the carriage when it got attacked, but I forget what happened but Ichigo eventually got them off).
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Old 2009-04-02, 06:35   Link #418
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If Isshin was the king of Soul Society don't you think SOMEONE would notice their freakin king is missing?! Unless the Zero division is hiding under his bed, protecting him all the time.
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Old 2009-04-02, 11:43   Link #419
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Maybe the old man Yamamoto knows something about Isshin and just didn't say anything when he hears Ichigo's name.
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Old 2009-04-02, 15:39   Link #420
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Well, not that I belive he is the king, Azien did claim the throne of hevaen was empty.
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