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Old 2009-03-17, 19:08   Link #4081
azul120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantis_Lux View Post
I know, in fact I wrote that the order would have reached through fear. Because I do not believe in the inherently ability of human race to create their own, and peaceful future. Lelouch obviously does, I think. Still, I fear that the ending was like that because the plot required it. But from a realistic point of view, the sudden disappearance of the only power who granted (though fear) the world order would have been a disaster. As much as happened after the dissolving of the Soviet Union.

Yeah, Lelouch left the future also in Nunally and Schneizel's hands. But what was the Designated Heir before they appeared? Only Sukazu, I suppose, since Lulu didn't know that Nunally was alive, so she wasn't part of the plan from the start.

Uhmm...
Suzaku was heir to the role of Zero, nothing more. But his role as Zero, bodyguard of Nunnally, was the opposite of Lelouch's Zero, who was more a cunning strategist and charismatic figurehead.
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Old 2009-03-17, 19:15   Link #4082
bladeofdarkness
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zero is more then a man
he is a symbol or a concept that represents justice and freedom
suzaku's role would be to serve in that role forever as a "hero of justice" rather then a specific role that could be bolied down to "bodyguard" or "strategist"
personally i kinda wonder if he can handle it for long without support
suzaku may have accepted the "geass" from lelouch but lelouch was never ONLY zero
he always had his normal life to fall back to and had probably planned to retaire from that role later on after getting everything he wanted
suzaku by contrast can never have any normal life and will always be ONLY zero with no hope of ever being able to have a normal life (or even personal happiness)
and like C.C told kallen the man who wears the mask must carry the world on his shoulders...
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Old 2009-03-17, 19:28   Link #4083
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
The very short timeskip between "World, obey me" and "Zero Zero Zero!" cheers by a no longer oppressed populace.
But wasn't that the point that proves it does work? I mean the whole use of Zero to strike down the tyrant Lelouch and as a symbol of justice for people to rally behind.
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Old 2009-03-18, 05:03   Link #4084
Levy
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Originally Posted by yvj View Post
I understand that but being on the short side of firepower didn't cause Lelouch or Schniezel to flinch that much especially if they had free time to think. For all we know Schneizel was completely focused on Lelouch and vice versa maybe Li could have done some behind the scenes work. Or maybe he was too noble to try anything beside face to face confrontations.
yes, I think that this is the main problem. The burden of morals is higher on him than on his oppositors, he forecasted the Mt. Fuji's plan but showed to despise



Quote:
It is kind of interesting that Li could have had the stuff to compete with Lelouch and Schniezel yet unlike them he doesn't feel like "He could do better" than the rulers around him nor did he have as much interest in changing the world.
On this we totally agree. It's not that I don't like him, I like Li actually, but he someway doesn't fit into the story, or at least, I don't feel like he does...

@Frost: Lelouch hates you because you do not get what he did get about Nunna-chan being on his same wavelenght! *_*!!!

Jokes aside, Nunnaly has no power but that of being able to get some from Schneizel showing herself in being ready to do anything in bringing Lelouch down. She probably understood (unlike Cornelia, that was never that brilliant...) that Schneizel would have let her room because the advantage of having her facing Lelouch directly. What she said shows that she understood the function of Damocles system, and elaborate a way for destroying Schneizel's plan from the inside. Schneizel wanted to keep the world frozen in terror, Nunnaly wants the world to unite against a common enemy.
Why she did not fix the world? You say she didn't get that part, but how if she never had a chance to do that? How could she anyway?
For a crippled girl of fifteen that has been held in a bubble of glass for half of her existence, it doesn't seems this less to me, but we all know by now how high are your standards............*sigh*

(and anyway, I would not call what Lelouch did to Britannia a 'fix', rather shattering it to piece so that it could never get back to its original form.
About this 'Emperor of Justice' thing, keep in mind that, like any tyrant, Lelouch massively used propaganda- and in an intelligent way, since he's brilliant. His reign is disquieting from the very start, even from outside, even not knowing what Geass is, this kind of absolute dictatorship, altought leading some improvements, always has a dark side of the medal everyone'd be able to figure...)
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Old 2009-03-18, 08:31   Link #4085
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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
Jokes aside, Nunnaly has no power but that of being able to get some from Schneizel showing herself in being ready to do anything in bringing Lelouch down. She probably understood (unlike Cornelia, that was never that brilliant...) that Schneizel would have let her room because the advantage of having her facing Lelouch directly. What she said shows that she understood the function of Damocles system, and elaborate a way for destroying Schneizel's plan from the inside. Schneizel wanted to keep the world frozen in terror, Nunnaly wants the world to unite against a common enemy.
Its pretty clear in the show that Nunally had no idea what Schneizel was doing and that she was doing her own thing but all the while playing into Schneizel's hands. To Schneizel fear and hatred of the Damocles fits perfectly into his plan, which means that even Nunally's own plan was just a step of the ladder for Schneizel. She was his more than willing puppet.

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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
Why she did not fix the world? You say she didn't get that part, but how if she never had a chance to do that? How could she anyway?
For a crippled girl of fifteen that has been held in a bubble of glass for half of her existence, it doesn't seems this less to me, but we all know by now how high are your standards............*sigh*
She didn't care about fixing the world. She thought she was blowing up a city that had been emptied out on nothing more than the nice words of her brother. She was Schneizel's puppet through the entire thing, the stupid thing being that she willingly accepted pushing a button that would kill millions to stop her brother. Stop him from doing what, though? All that she has are the things fed to her by Cornelia and Schneizel, she never actually saw him do anything evil.

I would except nothing less of a 15 year old girl that had been held in a bubble. What I expect and what she is, however, are very different things. I expected her to act like an idiot, and she did act like an idiot. The inherent problem, however, is that she never did in the past. She did not blindly trust people prior to the final arc.

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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
About this 'Emperor of Justice' thing, keep in mind that, like any tyrant, Lelouch massively used propaganda- and in an intelligent way, since he's brilliant. His reign is disquieting from the very start, even from outside, even not knowing what Geass is, this kind of absolute dictatorship, altought leading some improvements, always has a dark side of the medal everyone'd be able to figure...)
What are you talking about? In the show it is clearly shown that everyone loves him for what he did, even the Japanese. The only people who did not trust the Emperor were those who knew about Geass. None of the none-BK diplomats had any problems with Lelouch and were appalled by how he was treated in the meeting.

You can't just call him a tyrant because you want to, he did nothing tyranical until during the 2 month skip where we don't know what happened. Prior to that the people considered him the greatest Emperor. It is people who define a tyrant, not you. There was a reason the KoR were publicly feared by everyone, and there was a reason that Lelouch was loved.

Especially since it wasn't even an absolute dictatorship which is entirely debunked by what is said about him in the show itself. He desolved the Areas system and gave the people back their countries. He liberated everyone, that is why everyone loved him, even the people of the former Areas and even the Japanese. That is not a dictatorship. Especially not even remotely close to an absolute one.

Please, stop making stuff up.
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Old 2009-03-18, 08:56   Link #4086
bladeofdarkness
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i dont think nunnaly knew about the full extent of shnizel's CB plan
she didnt know he really destroyed pendragon becouse he didnt tell her the truth
do you really think he would tell her (nunnaly, the 2nd euphie) about his plan to kill millions ?
she knew that the damocles would be used as a looming threat, but i doubt she knew how far he would go to achive such a threat (and he wouldnt tell her since she was just bait anyway)

and her willingness to fire the freya during the actual battle basiclly is made up of
1)one part intense desire to stop her brother, which she took to seeing as her personal resposibility, which was so intense that she was able to despell her geass in order to achive it
2)and one part character derailment that was so widespread during the last arc
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Old 2009-03-18, 12:15   Link #4087
yvj
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and her willingness to fire the freya during the actual battle basiclly is made up of
1)one part intense desire to stop her brother, which she took to seeing as her personal resposibility, which was so intense that she was able to despell her geass in order to achive it
2)and one part character derailment that was so widespread during the last arc
Lol yeah there really wasn't much "let me take a step back, think and weigh my actions" in the last few episodes of the show.

I guess you can argue that people don't do much thinking during war. But Nunnaly firing weapons of mass destruction is just a tad off.
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Old 2009-03-18, 12:25   Link #4088
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@Frost: 1) I think Nunnaly was mostly faking to not understand what Schneizel was doing for the aforementioned reasons: she needed Schneizel to give her part of the power to do something herself. This is not even hinted untill the moment she came to face Lelouch for a suspence effect, but she understand perfectly what she was doing, otherwise what she said to him would not make any sense.
And she knew about Geass. Everything... once you know about Geass, it won't be that hard to understand what Lelouch has done so far.

2) If you'd read my posts instead of disagree with them by default, you'll maybe see what I'm really talking about. I nevere said that all he did was wrong, on the contrary, but there are obscure elements in his management of power from the start, and it is a dictatorship/absolute monarchy/ whatever you want to call it, since there's only one man taking decisions on his own for a whole nation. It might be the best decision possible, but it will still be a form of dictatorship. If you have a better word to teach me to call this form of governement, be my guest.

He did some good things that allowed him to be taken into consideration by the UNF, but he took power in a minute, declared he killed his father to get the throne and got immediate consensus out of the blue and in global broadcasting, he crushed his opposition with brute force. Lelouch put his court and thousands of soldiers under Geass (those people were brainwahsed and probably never returned to their family, so someone will know..)
He's the head of the most powerfull Empire of the world - if you find him not even slightly dangerous, then you are being naive at least.

On the propaganda thing, Lelouch used it intelligently, since he did also a lot of demostrative acts to show that the old Britannia is gone forever, and this, together with the freeing Areas policy earned him some consideration among the UNF, but he also broadcasted the battle between the KoR and Suzaku.
What's the purpose of that? Both showing old Britannia has been defeated and the fact that his Knight alone could take care of a whole small army.
He wanted to be feared, not only loved. See, I'm not making up anything.

And.. are you insinuating I want Lelouch to be worst than he is....?
How the hell you know ? Are you still inside my head?
It doesn't seems the case, because I do not.
*thinks again of Kallen the spouse of Satan just in case* =P
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Old 2009-03-18, 12:50   Link #4089
morbosfist
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1.) There's no indication she was faking to any great extent. Quite the contrary in fact. She was launching those nukes for pretty much the sole purpose of ending her brother's sins. That later conversation about hatred seems to jive more with Schenizel's plan than what Lelouch intended, not that the two plans are all that dissimilar. She recognized that Damocles was a weapon of unrivaled power, and that people would come to hate it, but this is not really her plan.

2.) Even a dictatorship is not necessarily bad, and the only difference in rule between Charles and Lelouch is a bit more transparency. Charles did the same thing, and didn't really have to answer to the lesser government positions. Lelouch merely made his decisions publicly.

What he did to gain his power is of little consequence in light of what he uses it for. By all accounts, he did nothing but good in the eyes of the common man and even the people who knew how he obtained that power, yet they treat him like crap at the ceremony regardless. I'm not saying they were entirely wrong in their requests, it is reasonable to prevent total vote control by a single nation, but 20%? That's not being cautious, that's being petty, and the pop-up barrier is a slap in the face at surface value. For all the good he did, he got no respect for it (I expected it from Ohgi and the others, but I honestly thought Kaguya and Xingke would at least give him the benefit of the doubt). Frankly, they did nothing but give him the excuse he needed with their actions.

The Suzaku/KoR battle served to cement his rule. Ever heard the phrase "speak softly, but carry a big stick"? Fear is just as important as respect to a good ruler. You want to come across as a nice guy, but also one that could thoroughly kick ass if called to task. Not only was that battle something any leader, intentionally evil or not, would benefit from broadcasting worldwide, it was a perfectly natural move.
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Old 2009-03-18, 13:14   Link #4090
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Well, morbos said pretty much everything I would have, so I will let you reply to him, and I'll jump in if he doesn't reply before I do again. (I am at work and I can only sporadically type up a post so it takes me a while to post.)
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Old 2009-03-18, 15:02   Link #4091
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Since when was Nunally emotionally and psychologically stable?
Compared to Lelouch, maybe...
But it's still not surprising that she kind of lost it in the end. People kept lying to her, including Suzaku and the brother who was her world as much as she was his.
Her plan wasn't even retarded. Just not logical enough to make her appear as sane as people might have expected.
It didn't surprise me, and after reading Stage 0, it makes even more sense that she more or less cracked eventually.
Not to mention that it's her birth right to be a bit psycho... xD
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Old 2009-03-18, 16:29   Link #4092
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Since when was Nunally emotionally and psychologically stable?
Compared to Lelouch, maybe...
But it's still not surprising that she kind of lost it in the end. People kept lying to her, including Suzaku and the brother who was her world as much as she was his.
Her plan wasn't even retarded. Just not logical enough to make her appear as sane as people might have expected.
It didn't surprise me, and after reading Stage 0, it makes even more sense that she more or less cracked eventually.
Not to mention that it's her birth right to be a bit psycho... xD
Your argument would work if it wasn't for the fact that she was able to withstand Charles's geass with the power of her own will for so long, so I'll say she's anything but unstable in the psychological/emotional departmart. She knew what she was doing from the get go that's why she asked Schienzel if she would be the one to push the button that's why her confrontation with Lelouch was about them atoning for their sins because she knew what she was doing was wrong and as Lelouch had clearly demonstrated with he's act as an evil tyrant Schienzel was the only person she could turn to. So saying that she cracked can't be proven nor is it legit since she clearly believed in Schienzel's method because at the time he was the only one she could trust. Also I wouldn't dive too deeply into the novel's interpretation either....
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Old 2009-03-18, 16:48   Link #4093
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Your argument would work if it wasn't for the fact that she was able to withstand Charles's geass with the power of her own will for so long, so I'll say she's anything but unstable in the psychological/emotional departmart. She knew what she was doing from the get go that's why she asked Schienzel if she would be the one to push the button that's why her confrontation with Lelouch was about them atoning for their sins because she knew what she was doing was wrong and as Lelouch had clearly demonstrated with he's act as an evil tyrant Schienzel was the only person she could turn to. So saying that she cracked can't be proven nor is it legit since she clearly believed in Schienzel's method because at the time he was the only one she could trust.
There's a difference between not being completely psychologically stable and having lost all ability to reason/will-power.
But since Nunally isn't Clovis, I can't bring myself to go very deep into this. My mind is in fangirl land already. xD

Quote:
Also I wouldn't dive too deeply into the novel's interpretation either....
As far as I know, Stage 0 is the novel closest to being canon - and since it makes perfect sense to me, I'll view it as such.
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Old 2009-03-18, 16:57   Link #4094
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There's a difference between not being completely psychologically stable and having lost all ability to reason/will-power.
But since Nunally isn't Clovis, I can't bring myself to go very deep into this. My mind is in fangirl land already. xD
Not really an psychologically unstable person wouldn't have been able to withstand the effects for so long and since Nunnally before then seem contempt with her surroundings she obviously has more will power than the majority of the cast.


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As far as I know, Stage 0 is the novel closest to being canon - and since it makes perfect sense to me, I'll view it as such.
"sigh" Whatever, do as you wish.
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:01   Link #4095
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Not really an psychologically unstable person wouldn't have been able to withstand the effects for so long and since Nunnally before then seem contempt with her surroundings she obviously has more will power than the majority of the cast.
I still don't see how some psychological issues mean that someone can't have a strong will.
Hell, Lelouch has a lot of will power, and he is not exactly the most sane person around.

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"sigh" Whatever, do as you wish.
Thanks, I will. ;P
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:08   Link #4096
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I still don't see how some psychological issues mean that someone can't have a strong will.
Hell, Lelouch has a lot of will power, and he is not exactly the most sane person around.
What "some psychological issues" are you talking about concerning Nunnally?
Also Lelouch is a poor example since he has seen to crack under pressure when the situation doesn't go as planned (Mao, Xingke, etc.). Try choosing a better character to support your argument.
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:12   Link #4097
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I still don't see how some psychological issues mean that someone can't have a strong will.
Hell, Lelouch has a lot of will power, and he is not exactly the most sane person around.



Thanks, I will. ;P

Lelouch is a sane person.{strictly with the definition of this word} He just has extreme reactions, only when the situation requires that {for example, when he found out Nunally is "dead"} but that does not mean, he is not having a normal healthy mind.
Quite the opposite actually, he seems to be able to maintain his ability to be reasonable through lot of "difficult" circumstances.
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:17   Link #4098
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What "some psychological issues" are you talking about concerning Nunnally?
Let's see... she was put under her mother's corpse as a child, was totally focused on her brother for most of the time, and apparently felt like a burden to him.
Nunally may be strong, but those things are bound to leave emotional scars.

Quote:
Also Lelouch is a poor example since he has seen to crack under pressure when the situation doesn't go as planned (Mao, Xingke, etc.). Try choosing a better character to support your argument.
Why? Lelouch does have some huge psychological issues.
Hell, you need to have them if you can order a bunch of soldiers to kill themselves and smile, or to shoot someone you grew up with in the head without flinching (even if you throw up the next day in school).
Not that he didn't have his reasons, but there are a lot of things about Lelouch that make it difficult for me to even consider him being "sane", beginning with what he tells Suzaku in one of the Sound Dramas as a child.

Then again, it probably depends on how you define "sanity".
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:37   Link #4099
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Let's see... she was put under her mother's corpse as a child, was totally focused on her brother for most of the time, and apparently felt like a burden to him.
Nunally may be strong, but those things are bound to leave emotional scars.
And how the hell do those count for her having psychological issues, all you've done is list events which doesn't even explain how they effected her character. If the only clear reason why she's clingy to her brother is the fact that HE'S THE ONLY PERSON SHE CARES FOR IN THE WORLD and the fact that they both had been there for one another since the beginning, she needed him as much as he needed her, but from your interpretation you think that's a bad thing.....

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Why? Lelouch does have some huge psychological issues.
Hell, you need to have them if you can order a bunch of soldiers to kill themselves and smile, or to shoot someone you grew up with in the head without flinching (even if you throw up the next day in school).
Not that he didn't have his reasons, but there are a lot of things about Lelouch that make it difficult for me to even consider him being "sane", beginning with what he tells Suzaku in one of the Sound Dramas as a child.

Then again, it probably depends on how you define "sanity".
Lelouch is quite sane if you've been paying attention to his actions (and not just Clovis) he seems very much contempt for what he's done and realize as a result the lost he will experience which is most prominent in R2 any insane person wouldn't have moved on but he continued to strive for a cause he considered just and after his revelation that his whole cause was a sham any insane person would have killed themselves right then and there but he decided to fix the distortion he caused in the first place before sealing the deal with his own life in the end. Also I think your confusing morality with insanity which Lelouch doesn't have alot of the former.
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:46   Link #4100
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Morality isn't exactly a quantifiable trait. Lelouch has his morals, he simply lacks qualms about killing, manipulation, etc.
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