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Old 2009-03-17, 13:30   Link #41
Ithekro
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Well, by Another Story, if Ushio and IW Ushio are one and the same...no one will mess with her. To take a different KyoAni god analogy, Ushio is now an extremely young and kind Haruhi. She is the Town and/or the World. If she wants to go visit other towns to see their happiness, she'll do it.
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Old 2009-03-17, 14:05   Link #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
Once again it was touched upon in the explanation by Ushio-IW and Kotomi in her Hidden World explanation. Ushio-IW said she was dreaming. She was learning about herself and the robot. It tells us that the Illusionary World made the Ushio-IW avatar by using lights from Ushio-RW. The lights are the projection of how people are seen in the Illusionary World. The lights are people's feelings.
I'm not exactly convinced because the IW got a winter, which is arguably strange for the world to disable its own avatar.
Furthermore, IW Ushio only understood her role after the "dream", so she was rather a distinct existence that was afterwards tied to the world without her knowing.
Tomoya-robot observed IW Ushio for a long time before being "invited" in the IW through the junk doll as a vessel.

Furthermore, I don't exactly see why IW Ushio would start saying the lights are "her feelings" if she was just the manifestation of a light orb of RW Ushio. That is like "feelings of a concept" instead of a "transcending being".

Quote:
If all those lights are indeed used to create the miracle, it doesn't mean more lights won't be transcending into the Illusionary World from there on. Hence, the existence of the Illusionary World is always a given. The need for its existence will be there as long as people's feeling are in constant flow. Surely, the need for miracle won't end with Tomoya's either. As a result, the Illusionary World continues with its barren existence.
Well there is no real proof that the IW will still exist or not, especially its purpose was only a folkloric tale.
I personally believe that this "alternate dimension" is indeed still existing, but Ushio's IW achieved its purpose after the miracles.

Well that is only a matter of perception so.
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Old 2009-03-17, 19:50   Link #43
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Spoiler-free Clannad diagram now in a more readable size.



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Old 2009-03-17, 19:58   Link #44
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wait wait wait, is 24 really tomoyo after?! or is that speculation?

edit: missed the thread... i can hope though. Tomoyo After is by far my favorite piece of Clannad.
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Old 2009-03-17, 20:02   Link #45
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Tomoyo After....being a game roughly the same length as After Story...I seriously doubt they can compress the story into a single episode...even if they skip all the side arcs and characters.
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Old 2009-03-17, 20:03   Link #46
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They can nevertheless try. By the way, I think I will copypasta my own supporting apologetics here to Kotomi's hunches.

*Disclaimer: by no mean am I trying to say that you just witnessed Quantum Mechanics the Animation. Don't blame me for the death of nekomata or whatnot since this is all for the sake of realism (TM) some are demanding.

My own leaning is towards the sum of all paths as well, but the origin of the world that has ended and the end of that period becomes the sore thumb in my mind. I suppose that here's where putting physics and anime together == god kills catgirl axiom applies, but if one can chronologically fit the world that has ended as a branch to the time constraint beginning from the reference point of the meeting over the bottom of the hill, perhaps a much less magical conclusion can be drawn to appease those that demand realism out of the "catch episode 22" question with all pun intended. This becomes an anomaly due also to potential causality problem with where this should go, and we actually even have an information paradox to contend with given that an explanation of where did all that energy and matter involved with the history to 'world that has ended' go when it literally collapsed?

I guess to really go wild, my own guess is that Hawking's own way out of his own information paradox to form the theoretical basis of what happened I suppose with that world and how it correlates to the 'majority' of the paths. This is where the whole topic goes completely beyond me however. His idea was on the line that either the world that has ended is literally another self-contained alternate universe where information of Ushio and Tomoya just bleed into (preserving informational enthalpy overall) and I guess Tomoya and Ushio got hurled into some sort of a black hole(?) with the observer audience getting the Tomoya POV instead of a 3rd person view of the whole spectacle... *Lost at this point, mostly as the part where it seems that universe comes out of black hole singularities...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5
Tomoya's consciousness into 2 halves so it can simultaneously participate in 2 worlds.
This also adds to the headache due to consideration of Quantum Entanglement... is Tomoya and Robot Tomoya really communicating with each other or programmed to interact the same way or... EPR paradox, where looking at Tomoya is enough to predict all of what robot Tomoya is going to do? I don't quite comprehend how many world circumvents this thought experiment actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5
For me it's much more logical to believe that dimensional shifting is more a possibility than splitting a mind, when one considers the fact that time and space is a measurable phenomena as compared to the idea of consciousness which is already so abstract as it is.
This issue would go away I guess if a strong explanation can be given of how that we have locality preserved through the view of how we look at Tomoya's global state relative to the end of the world local state. Consciousness would open a can of worm and it would lead everyone off on a massive tangent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
If we were to strictly fit IW into some chronological relationship with everything else, even as a separate universe, it would most likely fall as a world postdating the death of Ushio. IIRC, IW girl mentioned before the IW got nuked into oblivion that the two of them existed as 2 different people prior to the IW, and spoke in a past tense. This suggests to me that the IW was the result of Ushio's death and possibly Tomoya's own, the exception perhaps being Key's choice to run it in parallel. Otherwise, evidence points to the IW being an eventual result of the bad end.

Bear in mind of course that this for me is a more likely scenario than the IW occurring after meeting on the hill because while it would require Tomoya to jump dimensions, it follows a more linear series of events. From a strict order:

Ushio's death -> Illusionary World -> Time Loop -> Hill meeting

rather than:

Hill meeting -> Clannad Events parallel to IW -> Time Loop

For the sole reason that if both IW and Clannad ran in parallel, it's assuming that you split Tomoya's consciousness into 2 halves so it can simultaneously participate in 2 worlds. This sort of idea if closely related to the "limited souls" problem that if the universe had a limited number of souls, how exactly can there be an infinite number of people, unless you split a soul into a infinitely smaller number of souls to have more people. THAT'S a metaphysical problem I'd rather not touch.

And looking on the bright side of things, at least the contradiction didn't cause the Clannadverse to asplode on itself.



Not necessarily because, for me anyway, I don't really believe that the consciousness is split. For me it was real Tomoya before Robot Tomoya, shifting towards the IW after Ushio dies. For me it's much more logical to believe that dimensional shifting is more a possibility than splitting a mind, when one considers the fact that time and space is a measurable phenomena as compared to the idea of consciousness which is already so abstract as it is.





Key managed to follow the idea of Many World Interpretation under the Hawking interpretation in the anime adoption, and that is the basis of my argument. Essentially, with the magical properties of quantum mechanics, this strange set of parallel 'paths' consisting of one central universe and a separate universe in the form of the 'world that has died' aren't totally dues ex machina. I think that this concept of fighting fire with fire can be off-putting to some people, but here be what I think a plausible defense based in human understanding of the physical world... maybe upsetting and offputing but someone has to be the heretic here.

*I think that a better explanation of this conjecture is that Clannad Afterstory follows Hawking's own doctoral thesis on how parallel universes work. This links the idea of the singularity in black hole to the creation of parallel universes and how that even with the main universe itself, our final outcome in episode 22 is really a summation of all the possible paths, and even factoring in the enigmatic timeline of that world that has ended. This is very abstract and I am going to assume that Clannad is what little human can actually comprehend of the history information of the whole system in question.

Wikipedia explained it well...
Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
In the many-worlds interpretation, both alive and dead states of the cat persist, but are decoherent from each other. In other words, when the box is opened, that part of the universe containing the observer and cat is split into two separate universes, one containing an observer looking at a box with a dead cat, one containing an observer looking at a box with a live cat.
In short, science is fine with a state of dead and alive in a localized system relative to a global system, so you can be too if you want to be~nano.
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Last edited by panzerfan; 2009-03-17 at 20:13.
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Old 2009-03-17, 20:14   Link #47
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NEKOMATAAAA!!!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Looking at the professional interests that Maeda Jun has, I think that we are reading too much into it. Sci fi styled multiverse interpretations are believable. Trying to put in even scientific divulgation styled quantum physics into the whole thing is just pushing it


OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOO


!!
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Old 2009-03-18, 01:49   Link #48
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For what it's worth, Higurashi is far more plausible in terms of MWI and maybe even String Theory compared to Clannad.
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Old 2009-03-18, 02:40   Link #49
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Well that is true. Higurashi is a fun example to look into over amplitude of various outcomes of several paths, although it seems that the outcomes are only summed up to Rika the observer ultimately. Without spoiling the story, the outcome rests heavily on achieving a very specific set of state that has questionable amplitude of occurrence as opposed to the rather typical sets which have much higher amplitude!
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Old 2009-03-18, 03:03   Link #50
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But in comparison, Clannad pretty much only needed a minor alteration in action to change the fates of the people involved, whereas Higurashi needed a gigantic amount of deviations in the set path in order to affect the ultimate outcome that Rika wanted to avoid.
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Old 2009-03-18, 03:14   Link #51
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Well and the Higurashi setup changes each arc rather than Clannad's more or less same starting point and setup.
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Old 2009-03-18, 08:03   Link #52
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I believe the whole show was actually a dream tomoya had because he is a loser, except Tomoya is actually his father, who is dreaming because he lost his wife before he had his supposed "son" I also believe if you sail far enough from the shore you will fall off the edge of the world and land into the netherworld, which is apparently supported by four giants, which are consequently standing on a giant tortoise that is drifting aimlessly in space that is beyond the comprehension of any high-powered microscope or clairvoyant being.

If you just read that and liked it then you will also like the last episode of Clannad.
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Old 2009-03-18, 08:08   Link #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
Well that is true. Higurashi is a fun example to look into over amplitude of various outcomes of several paths, although it seems that the outcomes are only summed up to Rika the observer ultimately. Without spoiling the story, the outcome rests heavily on achieving a very specific set of state that has questionable amplitude of occurrence as opposed to the rather typical sets which have much higher amplitude!
But... uh... doesn't that violate Copenhagen? I don't follow that interpretation myself, from a philosophical standpoint, but it could always have been considered that all possible present and future events were already superimposed?

For Clannad anyway, it's not as if the viewer or even Tomoya knew the probability of what could have been happening at that time and the eventual result of a coice made during said time. Like the propverbial cat, it was either life or death, and ujntil the exact moment of the event there was no way for Tomoya to really know which one would be which. Then again, it's limited by the assumption that since a conscious mind could only interact with an event once and only once due to temporal separation, all possible outcomes could happen with equal possibility if not all existing already at the same, until the moment of collapse and only one outcome could occur.

For Higurashi, MWI was the only way to escape the inevitable outcome. Unlike the Cat, it needed not just one but a multitude of altered events ascribing to even more multiple futures in order to find potentially least required alterations to achieve total deviation.

In Copenhagen terms, and I'm probably saying this out of context, the ability to experience all those possible wave functions in order systematically remove all these functions from the equation itself, so that the person observing and/or experiencing is left with but one function, with a 100% probability of occurring.

Which makes me beg the question: Was there really only two ways out of that fateful snowy day? Tomoya had experienced the effects of one wave function collapse, but how sure was it that he'd get the one he wanted after realizing the way out of the one he already chose?

Anyway, no way in hell Copenhagen would have probably allowed what he did. MWI is the only explanation.
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Old 2009-03-18, 08:13   Link #54
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@ MeoTwister5: And yes, that would've only worked under many world, Everett interpretation and sum of path too. As you said, Copenhagen is completely in odds with Higurashi due to largely collapse of each state by end of each arc.

Well, the waveform collapse is arguably that the physical process of decoherence, which causes an apparent collapse. So in this case we have a loss of information from the IW to another system (being the junction point at the foot of the hill), but Tomoya the observer will observe that as a waveform collapse... so the IW isn't actually gone at all really.

I ended up saying saying IMW is overrated to illustrate a point on how some people hold that Kyoani narrative is overrated . I think I am a fan of IMW actually.

EDIT: I think that Tomoya could've gotten out of the snowy day, by having realized that he shouldn't have denied his decision of being with Nagisa and start a family and allow the town and Ushio to persevere, albeit without Nagisa. He should have had more than enough in the ways of cumulative sums of various paths to have come to that realization and to affect the IW in this way. I don't know however if he can bypass the junction point of the foot of the hill directly.

At Fishman, can't deny that Giant tortoise view is one of the *best* at its time, even if you are pulling a strawman over this the whole exercise to give apologetic to what's technically possible in the show's world view. Sure, the prime time of our tortoise world view would be 1927 or 1988~ or ask if the Hindu thinks that they got the idea down earlier. Hawking would know, he made a book featuring that analogy.

Well, you did illustrate the fallacy of second-guessing and interpretation by having presented the turtle worldview to try and support the snarky comment of how Tomoya's having a dream.

Why, making the claim that I would've the liked the last episode of Clannad sounds like fox crying on grape it can't eat as sour. O wait, I am making a judgmental and biased conclusion based on inferring to what you're getting at, my bad.

@Texas84. lol, so cheating by not giving the cat poison vial.
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Old 2009-03-18, 12:01   Link #55
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From someone who took P-Chem three times, awesome thread!

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Old 2009-03-18, 20:51   Link #56
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I'm not exactly convinced because the IW got a winter, which is arguably strange for the world to disable its own avatar.
Furthermore, IW Ushio only understood her role after the "dream", so she was rather a distinct existence that was afterwards tied to the world without her knowing.
Tomoya-robot observed IW Ushio for a long time before being "invited" in the IW through the junk doll as a vessel.
I thought the manifestation of weather such as the snow, or other aesthetic such as the sky, the grass, the sunflowers, and the shape of the world itself is created from what Ushio-RW experienced and how she perceived her surrounding during her brief existence. The very act helped IW to communicate with the Robot. We know Ushio's emotions are copied when Ushio-IW states that they need to get away from this place before the snow comes. Otherwise, she will go to sleep even though she doesn't seem to know why. That, to me, corresponds with the event which took place where Ushio dies (falls asleep) outside in the snow. These events were recreated so IW can better understand Ushio's lights/feelings which, in turn, helps communicate with the Robot who shared direct connection with Ushio once... and in turn, IW comes to understand the particular kind of miracle the robot desires.

Quote:
Furthermore, I don't exactly see why IW Ushio would start saying the lights are "her feelings" if she was just the manifestation of a light orb of RW Ushio. That is like "feelings of a concept" instead of a "transcending being".
That is a very good point, and I agree. My theory is that, relying slightly on Quantum Mechanics ( ), IW is attempting to justify the miracle by using terms Robot/Tomoya will "understand." I'm putting "understand" behind quotation mark because I'm sure Tomoya doesn't care if he understood how the miracle occurred. He is happy that his wife didn't die and Ushio would have a mother.

Quote:
Well there is no real proof that the IW will still exist or not, especially its purpose was only a folkloric tale.
Wait just a cotton pickin' minute... so what was the purpose of the lingering effect shown about IW from the very first episode of Clannad and persisting with the illustration of the IW till the very end?

Quote:
I personally believe that this "alternate dimension" is indeed still existing, but Ushio's IW achieved its purpose after the miracles.
I agree. The only disagreement we have here is that I think IW still persist with its primary task which is never over as long as people are capable of projecting their feelings. To interject with a bit of Quantum Mechanics once again, "feelings" are said to be the very nature of Wave Functions.

By the way, has anyone noticed how Panzerfan has the nag for saying the most simplest of things in the most complicated of manners? I was less confused when I first read about Wave Function compared to a typical Panzerfan-post.
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Old 2009-03-18, 21:37   Link #57
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Monir: you're right. Guilty as charged and know of it I really didn't want to be blatantly explicit either given how some people will choose to induce personal arguments with your words, so it always end up convoluted and indirect to the actual point at times. I am terrible at literacy level balance and it actually puts people off by sounding condescended. Subsequently, I've had alot of strawman pulled on me for things I wanted to get due to this attempt to avoid bashing.

Well, wave functions are fed information, which in turn is an energy, and that energy in an alternate form is... mass that form matter/antimatter. In some sense, the crazy idea that you can take information and put together just about anything if you can understand the said information is kinda far out but a reality in the Quantum realm. Almost is magic isn't it... now whether or not if the feelings that Ushio/Tomoya has over Nagisa and his recollection of all the people they had helped would be those informations needed to glue all that 'stuff' together in the IW and all.
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Old 2009-03-19, 11:44   Link #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
Well, wave functions are fed information, which in turn is an energy, and that energy in an alternate form is... mass that form matter/antimatter. In some sense, the crazy idea that you can take information and put together just about anything if you can understand the said information is kinda far out but a reality in the Quantum realm. Almost is magic isn't it... now whether or not if the feelings that Ushio/Tomoya has over Nagisa and his recollection of all the people they had helped would be those informations needed to glue all that 'stuff' together in the IW and all.
I know that the significance of the IW and the very existence of it can't be explained away without relying on the theoretical realm of Quantum Mechanics as soon as the word was uttered "dimension" in Clannad. There is also a chronological order that seems pretty apparent to explain how the miracle took shape.

Ushio is born. Nagisa dies. Tomoya forms a bond with Ushio. Tomoya tells Ushio about Nagisa. Ushio observes the emotion Tomoya wears every time he tells her about her mother. Ushio forms an impression by interpreting those emotions displayed by Tomoya. Ushio wants to give her father happiness. Her father's happiness is Nagisa.

Ushio dies.

IW comes to take interest at Ushio-RW's lights/feelings. An avatar is created that is Ushio-IW. The world and the other aesthetic are also replicated by interpreting whatever Ushio-RW perceived during her brief existence in the Other World. IW has yet to interpret what Ushio-RW wants.

IW comes in contact with Tomoya's light/feelings. IW correctly surmise to put Tomoya in the same world that is created after Ushio-RW. These two meet. IW has a complete picture of what the miracle needs to be about.

Nagisa cannot die at child birth.

And the eventual conclusion is as we see it.

Quote:
Monir: you're right. Guilty as charged and know of it I really didn't want to be blatantly explicit either given how some people will choose to induce personal arguments with your words, so it always end up convoluted and indirect to the actual point at times. I am terrible at literacy level balance and it actually puts people off by sounding condescended. Subsequently, I've had alot of strawman pulled on me for things I wanted to get due to this attempt to avoid bashing.
Meh! A good poster always knows when not to give a damn about what others are saying negatively if the post itself explain things without becoming personal. You are more than a good poster.
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Old 2009-03-20, 15:02   Link #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
Spoiler-free Clannad diagram now in a more readable size.



If you subscribe to this graph then it causes problems for the whole story because it makes it seem like Tomoya still crossed timelines from timeline 2 to timeline 1 at the end of After Story episode 16, which wouldn’t make sense. If he’s already at the point where he can collect the light orbs at the beginning of the series (and indeed we see him bonding with all of the girls and helping them) then why does he go through all of those bad end events shown in Timeline 1 starting at episode 17? Theoretically he already helped all of the girls to get the light orbs so he should just jump straight to the good ending. In this manner it looks like the graph doesn’t really work…..or am I missing something?
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Old 2009-03-20, 15:03   Link #60
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Yes, he already did. The one who switched contexts wasn't Tomoya himself, but us, as in the viewer when we reached the dimensional crossroad.

Or you could say that prior to his decision both timelines existed simultaneously, in a Schrodinger cat kind of way. It wasn't till he took his decision that both timelines collapsed into timeline 2. In any case we were shown those episodes so we could come to understand:

- The existance of the IW
- The existance of Timeline 2 itself
- The significance of the crossroad were timeline 1 and 2 radically diverge.
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