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View Poll Results: Toradora! - Episode 24 Rating
Perfect 10 93 42.86%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 50 23.04%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 22 10.14%
7 out of 10 : Good 17 7.83%
6 out of 10 : Average 7 3.23%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 0.92%
4 out of 10 : Poor 5 2.30%
3 out of 10 : Bad 5 2.30%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 4 1.84%
1 out of 10 : Painful 12 5.53%
Voters: 217. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-03-18, 17:16   Link #81
Janifuu
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Not to sound biased in anyway though I speculate that the majority of those who would complain about the outcome of the story consisted mainly kids/pre-teens (aka the more immature audience) who simply like to play shipping wars and not observe the story from more adult and insightful prospective. They won't know what development means when they themselves haven't developed nor lived enough life to know what its like. I see the majority who understand and support the logic in that Ryuuji and Taiga belong to eachother derives from a more mature, life-experienced audience, for a lack of a better way to put it. Forgive my rambling, just a thought I had >_>
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:19   Link #82
Kaisos Erranon
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I should really shut up until the subs come out so I can make valid judgments...
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:20   Link #83
danin8r44
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
1) I think relentlessflame is being far too gracious to the "no setup" crowd Really, they can't be troutslapped hard enough for simply failing to pay attention and frankly, I think there's a lot of subversive "shipping" still trolling around from those who never understood this was never a "harem choose the girl" adventure.
(yes, I think an equally interesting story could have been told with Ami but that is left to "alternative history doujinshi")

2) My assessment of the anime is that it has stood on its own quite successfully. Do I think the novels tell a deeper more content-rich story? well, duh. But this is an anime adaptation. Some things the visual medium does better than the novels and in other aspects it is handicapped compared to the novels. So it goes....
The problem isn't that there was "no setup". It is that the little set up that there is occurred primarily within this episode. It just felt unnatural for something so dramatic, almost to the point of it feeling unnatural, happened with only one episode supporting the drama out of a whole batch of 24. I don't think there is "no setup" just "hasty setup".
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:22   Link #84
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by danin8r44 View Post
The problem isn't that there was "no setup". It is that the little set up that there is occurred primarily within this episode. It just felt unnatural for something so dramatic, almost to the point of it feeling unnatural, happened with only one episode supporting the drama out of a whole batch of 24. I don't think there is "no setup" just "hasty setup".
In regards to the whole Yasuko thing, I have to agree.

It's just this episode and last episode where she actually became important. It's... sudden.

The Ryuuji/Taiga thing has had a hell of a lot of setup though.
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:26   Link #85
danin8r44
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
In regards to the whole Yasuko thing, I have to agree.

It's just this episode and last episode where she actually became important. It's... sudden.

The Ryuuji/Taiga thing has had a hell of a lot of setup though.
Yes but in one episode he gets confessed to by the too hyper girl, rejects, confesses about Taiga, AND runs away with her......... I think those events could have been better timed if not just spaced out a bit more. I know they had a strong relationship building the entire anime, but the pacing was just sorta POW outta nowhere.
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:26   Link #86
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Ultimately, I liked this episode, but the developments were too many and came too fast for my liking. For about the last third of it, I was in "o_O I must not have heard that right...what!?" mode, which I don't like to be in. They did too much in this episode, that's all there is to it. I don't know how the books handled it, but...yeah.

I mean, I read some poster commenting on the maturity of their relationship and all that, and while there's some of that (and the pairing makes a lot of sense), I have a hard time digesting the fact that the story went from Taiga running away from her feelings to "This is my wife!" in 24 minutes. There has to have been some way to make this feel more natural and less insane. Yeah, they're eloping, but the whole thing, from Taiga to Minorin to Ami to Yasuko to them running away...it just went too fast for my tastes. It feels like this should have been at least two episodes, just to space it out a little.

That said, all in all, the (HUGE) pacing issues put aside, I enjoyed the episode. I'm interested in seeing how this all wraps up next week, but this episode is only getting an eight out of me.
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:28   Link #87
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Originally Posted by danin8r44 View Post
The problem isn't that there was "no setup". It is that the little set up that there is occurred primarily within this episode. It just felt unnatural for something so dramatic, almost to the point of it feeling unnatural, happened with only one episode supporting the drama out of a whole batch of 24. I don't think there is "no setup" just "hasty setup".
Aye, I wasn't referring to your post (apologies if you thought so) because I have a similar regret about the series --- it has to cram a LOT of ideas into an absurdly tight time budget. These last 2 or 3 episodes deserve 6 episodes of time. So Ryuuji's explosion at Ya-chan wasn't telegraphed well (as in you wouldn't think it from the relatively mild discussion with the teacher and his afterthoughts).

I was focused on the utterly lame noises I'm reading on randomc and other forums where people are acting like they just got blindsided by everything. Seriously about half or better of the anime fans do get it (much better than the 90% humans-are-idiots rule). But you just have to stand in awe of those who basically proclaim they don't actually follow the relatively straightforward plot.
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:33   Link #88
SageGaiGar
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Setup's always been there, they've just been too stubborn to state their actual feelings.
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:33   Link #89
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I have a hard time digesting the fact that the story went from Taiga running away from her feelings to "This is my wife!" in 24 minutes.
I can totally see Ryuuji doing this though.

He's the sort of person to just accept this kind of development and go along with it.

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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I was focused on the utterly lame noises I'm reading on randomc and other forums where people are acting like they just got blindsided by everything. Seriously about half or better of the anime fans do get it (much better than the 90% humans-are-idiots rule). But you just have to stand in awe of those who basically proclaim they don't actually follow the relatively straightforward plot.
People only see what they want to, right?

A lot of people on RC only pay attention to the scenes with Ami in them, it seems.
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:37   Link #90
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Hey, I get it, and I never said I didn't like the show.

Actually, I love it.

I just think it could have been done a lot better, is all.
And I'm not saying that because I want you to like or not like the show. That's totally up to you! My only point is that, even though you may have a valid argument re: things missing from the anime (I don't know), that doesn't mean the show is incomprehensible, hard to follow, or otherwise lacking in relevant detail. Because otherwise, there'd be no way for anyone who hasn't read the novels to "get it", and I don't think the evidence supports that assumption. That's really all I'm saying.

Totally get what you're saying about "it could have been done better" -- everyone has an opinion about these sorts of things. But, from my vantage point, I'd say that even so, the writers did a fine job given the time available (maybe that last part is the operative part of the phrase). So in the end, in my ignorance, I can tentatively agree. Heck, I think many of us would agree that it would already be better if next week weren't already the end!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Janifuu View Post
Not to sound biased in anyway though I speculate that the majority of those who would complain about the outcome of the story consisted mainly kids/pre-teens (aka the more immature audience) who simply like to play shipping wars and not observe the story from more adult and insightful prospective. They won't know what development means when they themselves haven't developed nor lived enough life to know what its like. I see the majority who understand and support the logic in that Ryuuji and Taiga belong to eachother derives from a more mature, life-experienced audience, for a lack of a better way to put it. Forgive my rambling, just a thought I had >_>
I hesitate on the one hand, because I definitely think that anyone, regardless of age, can be reflective and insightful. And, likewise, I know many people who should have more "life experience" that seem to demonstrate absolutely no need to evidence that online. (As Vexx said, I'm probably being a bit too gracious here... )

What annoys me is the whole culture that seems to encourage this sort of speak-before-thinking attitude, and acts like because they have an opinion about something there must absolutely be a flaw in whatever they're criticizing simply because they don't like it. That's nonsense. No blogger or forum poster is going to convince me, just by the virtue of their having an opinion, that they know more about good writing than the actual people who wrote the show. I guess it's sort of the old "everyone's a critic" bit, except that it doesn't help when those people are also both arrogant and ignorant. In general, I would love to see less outrage and more reasoned analysis, but clearly this isn't the way to feed one's ego online. People just want to be told "you're right, that was so totally stupid and wrong, and it's the show's fault for being poor!" rather than "the show may be just fine; maybe you should watch it again to pick up on all the things you missed the first time and think about it". More often than not, the problem is the latter and not the former. Anyway, pipe dreams...
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:45   Link #91
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One thing I actually was surprised by though is how strongly Minori apparently liked Ryuuji, and how she acted surprised when he decided to go with her and how hurt she acted when he said he wanted to be with Taiga. Up until this point I saw no signs that she wasn't satisfied with her decision and I thought she was fully prepared for everything it entailed.
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:46   Link #92
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I hesitate on the one hand, because I definitely think that anyone, regardless of age, can be reflective and insightful. And, likewise, I know many people who should have more "life experience" that seem to demonstrate absolutely no need to evidence that online. (As Vexx said, I'm probably being a bit too gracious here... )

What annoys me is the whole culture that seems to encourage this sort of speak-before-thinking attitude, and acts like because they have an opinion about something there must absolutely be a flaw in whatever they're criticizing simply because they don't like it. That's nonsense. No blogger or forum poster is going to convince me, just by the virtue of their having an opinion, that they know more about good writing than the actual people who wrote the show. I guess it's sort of the old "everyone's a critic" bit, except that it doesn't help when those people are also both arrogant and ignorant. In general, I would love to see less outrage and more reasoned analysis, but clearly this isn't the way to feed one's ego online. People just want to be told "you're right, that was so totally stupid and wrong, and it's the show's fault for being poor!" rather than "the show may be just fine; maybe you should watch it again to pick up on all the things you missed the first time and think about it". More often than not, the problem is the latter and not the former. Anyway, pipe dreams...
I agree with everything you said, especially on people who insists (and tries to convince others) that they know so much about "good writing" and "bad writing". Oh I hate that phrase...
And unfortunately, this is internet. The place where we argue about stupid crap. Therefore, it's mandatory to have e-peens the size of Eiffel Tower, and thus, must convince others of our superior knowledge of how to write or direct a story.

Well, I agree about everything other than age part.
I hate kids. I eat babies, and use teenagers as slaves.

But don't tell anyone.
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:47   Link #93
Janifuu
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Oh I should explain - dependent on the individual, certainly anyone of any age can be reflective and insightful, just as you say relentlessflame. I tend to sometimes over analyze things; due to that though, from what I've picked up, the majority of shippers complaining about the series' outcome deem to be that of a younger audience given their "forum age" and what not. It's not a very plausible assumption to make I know, but judging by the context of their posts and their thoughtless declarations of which pairing should "win" simply due to their preference, its hard personally for me to not interpret it in any other way than that they come across as an immature audience.
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:53   Link #94
danin8r44
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I agree with everything you said, especially on people who insists (and tries to convince others) that they know so much about "good writing". Oh I hate that phrase...
And unfortunately, this is internet. The place where we argue about stupid crap. Therefore, we have e-peens the size of Eiffel Tower, and thus, must convince others of our superior knowledge of how to write or direct a story.

Well, I agree about everything other than age part.
I hate kids. I eat babies, and use teenagers as slaves.

But don't tell anyone.
My opinion is that good writing is entirely subjective. The point of a forum is to trade opinions and ideas as well as facts, so I think its fine to say what is or isn't good writing as long as you don't say the other person is wrong as well. For instance I thought Moby Dick was horrible writing but apparently its a classic, in the same way some people say this Tora Dora episode was written well and I think it didn't flow well with the other episodes. I am glad it didn't end with too hyper girl being the heroine though...

EDIT: Don't worry I eat babies too. XD
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Old 2009-03-18, 18:10   Link #95
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Originally Posted by Janifuu View Post
Oh I should explain - dependent on the individual, certainly anyone of any age can be reflective and insightful, just as you say relentlessflame. I tend to sometimes over analyze things; due to that though, from what I've picked up, the majority of shippers complaining about the series' outcome deem to be that of a younger audience given their "forum age" and what not. It's not a very plausible assumption to make I know, but judging by the context of their posts and their thoughtless declarations of which pairing should "win" simply due to their preference, its hard personally for me to not interpret it in any other way than that they come across as an immature audience.
No, don't worry -- I knew what you meant, and I actually think that you're probably right. As an illustration, an astute commenter on one of those famous blogs pointed out today that they appreciated Toradora's theme of the difference between a crush and the various forms of love. But how can one recognize and appreciate this theme if you're at a point in life where you can't really tell the difference yourself? This is definitely a story (and adaptation) written by an adult reflecting back on high school. If you're not at a stage in life where you can similarly look back and recognize everything for what it is, I can see how it'd be harder to understand.

This episode is actually a perfect example. All the people who are like "this is so sudden", "it makes no sense", and "where did this come from"... this is so what being a teenager is like. Maybe it's because I'm the oldest with two younger siblings, so got to witness this same phenomenon? To Taiga and Ryuuji, this so makes sense and is all the world to them in this moment -- they're going to do this, and they're going to prove to everyone that they don't need anyone to tell them how to live their lives! They're going to be free from everything that holds them back! Because, mom, (dad,) just accept that I'm an adult already! But they're not. Obviously not. Painfully not. And this is absolutely going to dawn on them sooner or later. But for right now -- in this one single moment -- they've found each other, and that's all they need! World be damned! The fact that it makes no sense, is sudden, etc. is exactly the point because this is what it is to be a teenager. It only makes sense at the time and, in retrospect, was totally stupid. And it's only later on that you actually figure that out (and you spend the whole rest of your life "getting that" more and more).

So anyway, all that to say, I don't think you've over-analyzed at all -- I was just trying to give people the benefit of the doubt. In the end, it really is that sort of show that makes more sense upon reflection. And, in truth, maybe it does help if you have something to reflect about in your own life first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Well, I agree about everything other than age part.
I hate kids. I eat babies, and use teenagers as slaves.

But don't tell anyone.
Ah, crap. "Honey? Better take the kids down to the cellar. We've got trolls..."

(Speaking of which, have you noticed that forum trolling has changed over the last few years? It used to be that people would come into forums and post negative opinions only to get people riled up. Nowadays, you get the same sort of negative opinions, and the person seems to really mean it! )
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Old 2009-03-18, 18:13   Link #96
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
(Speaking of which, have you noticed that forum trolling has changed over the last few years? It used to be that people would come into forums and post negative opinions only to get people riled up. Nowadays, you get the same sort of negative opinions, and the person seems to really mean it! )
It really isn't trolling, in which case. It's just people illustrating the GIFT theory.
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Old 2009-03-18, 18:15   Link #97
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But seriously, like relentlessflame and others been saying about people complaining about being blindsided because of the fast moving context, You have to remember that they have been doing that since first episode, there is alot of context(10 Volumes) they have to put into 25 episodes in less than 30 min each. Besides I think J.C. Staff did a excellent job on doing that, and I believe that this is the best series that J.C. Staff ever did.

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
No, don't worry -- I knew what you meant, and I actually think that you're probably right. As an illustration, an astute commenter on one of those famous blogs pointed out today that they appreciated Toradora's theme of the difference between a crush and the various forms of love. But how can one recognize and appreciate this theme if you're at a point in life where you can't really tell the difference yourself? This is definitely a story (and adaptation) written by an adult reflecting back on high school. If you're not at a stage in life where you can similarly look back and recognize everything for what it is, I can see how it'd be harder to understand.

This episode is actually a perfect example. All the people who are like "this is so sudden", "it makes no sense", and "where did this come from"... this is so what being a teenager is like. Maybe it's because I'm the oldest with two younger siblings, so got to witness this same phenomenon? To Taiga and Ryuuji, this so makes sense and is all the world to them in this moment -- they're going to do this, and they're going to prove to everyone that they don't need anyone to tell them how to live their lives! They're going to be free from everything that holds them back! Because, mom, (dad,) just accept that I'm an adult already! But they're not. Obviously not. Painfully not. And this is absolutely going to dawn on them sooner or later. But for right now -- in this one single moment -- they've found each other, and that's all they need! World be damned! The fact that it makes no sense, is sudden, etc. is exactly the point because this is what it is to be a teenager. It only makes sense at the time and, in retrospect, was totally stupid. And it's only later on that you actually figure that out (and you spend the whole rest of your life "getting that" more and more).

So anyway, all that to say, I don't think you've over-analyzed at all -- I was just trying to give people the benefit of the doubt. In the end, it really is that sort of show that makes more sense upon reflection. And, in truth, maybe it does help if you have something to reflect about in your own life first.
I totally agree with you on that one, sometimes when we forget that we was once teenagers ourselves. For this series, you will have to read outsides the lines and reflect about it.
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Old 2009-03-18, 18:27   Link #98
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Oooh, I am looking forward to this episode. I don't have a problem with the Yasuko thing. It seems plausible to me from what we've seen so far. Like one of those bottle bottle bottle bottle EXPLODE kind of deals.

What I'm curious to see is how they work out these Ryuuji x Taiga developments. I never doubted from the start it would wind up Ryuuji x Taiga, but WOW what a long way to come in a single episode. I know it won't be 100% rational...I'm guessing that's kind of the point. Shooouuuld be interesting.
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Old 2009-03-18, 18:27   Link #99
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If you can enjoying watching Spice and Wolf, I think you should love this ones as fast-pacing version. Tatsuyuki Nagai did very good job in putting all pieces altogether in anime without trainwrecking it like other famous animes. However, his point of view in serializing this story doesn't work well with non-adult audiences.
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Old 2009-03-18, 18:37   Link #100
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Whoa!! Ryuuji introduces Taiga as his bride/fiancée???
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