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View Poll Results: Toradora! - Episode 24 Rating
Perfect 10 93 42.86%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 50 23.04%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 22 10.14%
7 out of 10 : Good 17 7.83%
6 out of 10 : Average 7 3.23%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 0.92%
4 out of 10 : Poor 5 2.30%
3 out of 10 : Bad 5 2.30%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 4 1.84%
1 out of 10 : Painful 12 5.53%
Voters: 217. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-03-18, 22:10   Link #121
apr
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On the issue of marriage

A lot of people seem to be raging about Ryuuji proposing to Taiga, when they're so young and still in school and it's so early in their relationship and so on.

I think there's a reasonable explanation for this. (Note that I don't know about Japanese laws, and this is just a personal impression.)

In the novels, there's a very palpable sense of urgency: Taiga's mother is actively chasing after Ryuuji/Taiga to grab her daughter and move far, far away. She drives her Porsche after them on the streets, and they run away, making sure to use narrow alleys where cars can't drive while keeping a lookout for black vehicles, and later they also hop on different trains to shake off pursuers (excessively, perhaps). Taiga's mother also visits Kitamura and asks him where she can find them.

Now, Ryuuji is a young man, a few days away from turning 18, and over the course of a year he's grown incredibly attached and fallen in love with Taiga. She's still a minor, and now her mother appears out of nowhere and wants to break them apart, ripping his loved one right out of his life. Inner monologues and various scenes with crying/screaming make it abundantly clear that Ryuuji is very upset about this.

His solution is simple: Run away for a few days until he turns 18, then marry Taiga and move in with her. "WHAT?!" go most people watching. Why get married so soon? I believe it's because at age 17, Taiga is still a minor, and under the custody of her mother, who can move her wherever she wants. However, if Ryuuji marries her (I think girls have to be 16 in Japan), he most likely becomes her "guardian" and thus gains the right to live with her, in practice freeing her from the evil mother's grasp. This allows him and Taiga to stay together, and gives Taiga the opportunity to live a life in contact with her very precious friends.

Of course it's insane, and rash, and surprising. Ami even comments on this in the book, calling it a childish plan. But remember that Ryuuji grew up with a single mother who did exactly that: she ran away from home and gave birth to her son and lived in exile from her parental home. To him it's not a crazy, impossible occurrence - instead it's exactly what he's living proof of. Taiga, on the other hand, hates her parents and has always felt utterly betrayed by them, so to her it's the only way to be close to the people she really cares about, her friends and Ryuuji.


Right, well, I guess this is where someone knowledgeable comes in and tells me I'm wrong about how marriage and custodian laws work in Japan, and then you can declare me mentally unstable.


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Type like what? A regular human?
A non-regular human, actually. I meant the usage of capital letters and punctuation, which is pretty rare in instant messaging.
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Old 2009-03-18, 22:23   Link #122
Peanutbutter
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Nice explanation.

Spoiler for to be safe:
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Old 2009-03-18, 22:26   Link #123
VRMN
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The problem is that this isn't the book, it's the anime. This sense of urgency is not there in the anime, with the threat of Taiga's mom being downplayed and thus it appears rash for the sake of being rash.

Now, I don't have that much of an issue with the plot taking this turn to be honest, it's more that they jammed in in with so much else. But, that said, "it was better in the original work" doesn't fly here any more than it flies with Clannad or Index or what have you. My opinion is that there's ultimately too much to digest (even if the episode is still really good despite this). Evidently, what they cut out here (the kiss, this stuff with Taiga's mom) really hurts the episode more than it helps it, because it could have helped solve some of my issues with the episode but didn't for whatever reason.
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Old 2009-03-18, 22:34   Link #124
Ryuou
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Quote:
Right, well, I guess this is where someone knowledgeable comes in and tells me I'm wrong about how marriage and custodian laws work in Japan, and then you can declare me mentally unstable.

You're right about being able to marry at 16, but if you're a minor you need permission from the parent/guardian.

On to this episode, hmm...there are times during this series where it's good enough that I forget JC Staff is making it. Then there are times during Toradora! where it feels really average and/or really reminds me that JC Staff is the one making it.

The episode was interesting, but it had its problems. There were some parts in this episode that I thought were pretty good though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Storks bring Japanese babies instead of sex

This is actually true and I've seen the company building.
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Old 2009-03-18, 22:40   Link #125
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
[random]

It now begs the question of whether or not Ryuuji will have to bend down or Taiga will have to stand on a box, because the height difference is too large to solve with high heels.

[/random]
I can verify it is easily possible to kiss someone without extra help even if one party is 4'10" and the other is 6'0" --- not an issue (especially if you just pick them up).
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Old 2009-03-18, 23:09   Link #126
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Watched the Chinese subs.

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Old 2009-03-18, 23:12   Link #127
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuou View Post
On to this episode, hmm...there are times during this series where it's good enough that I forget JC Staff is making it. Then there are times during Toradora! where it feels really average and/or really reminds me that JC Staff is the one making it.
J.C.Staff is not some sort of giant monolith that somehow forces all of its shows down some sort of single creative pipeline called "suck". What they are is a relatively large production company that can coordinate multiple large-scale productions with a relatively reliable level of animation quality. Every show has different directors, writers, producers, and other key staff. If anything, I'd say they're a "workhorse" studio; their animation work is consistently decent, like a well-oiled machine. The actual quality of the *adaptation* depends on the directing and of the writing staff, and a lot of those people don't even work for J.C.Staff (or might even have been assigned by the producers without J.C.Staff's input). So... it's really not that simple. If a show's animation production values are good, then you should credit the animation director and the production studio. But if the story adaptation quality is good, then you should credit the director, planner, writers, and storyboard artists. If you want to predict whether a show will be good or bad, you have to look beyond just which studio is working on it and consider all the key players (producers, publishers, key staff, etc.)

It's like people like to have like the one face they can blame if they don't like something. With the Haruhi 2 stuff, at first it was Kyoto Animation and everyone was "grrrr Kyoto Animation", and then finally someone convinced them that it wasn't Kyoto Animation, it's Kadokawa, and so then everyone was "grrrr Kadokawa". Business politics aren't so clean-cut. There's not one single bad guy or one single person to whom all decisions must flow, really (even if there is on paper, it doesn't work that way in real life). It's a mess of contracts, and committees, and boardroom meetings, and stupid requirements imposed by people who don't know anything but somehow got into positions of power due to be related to the boss's cousin's friend. I suppose, at the end of the day, if you have to have a single person to blame, you could point to the director, but even then who knows what circumstances there were surrounding the production that were beyond his or her control. Life just isn't so simple.

And in other news...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I can verify it is easily possible to kiss someone without extra help even if one party is 4'10" and the other is 6'0" --- not an issue (especially if you just pick them up).
Awwww....
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Old 2009-03-18, 23:15   Link #128
apr
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Originally Posted by Ryuou View Post
You're right about being able to marry at 16, but if you're a minor you need permission from the parent/guardian.
Seems you're right. This website states: "A person who is under 20 years of age cannot get married in Japan without a parent's approval."

I wonder if this means the author was unaware of the law, or if we're to interpret it as Ryuuji being unaware. Or me being an idiot.
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Old 2009-03-18, 23:16   Link #129
wistfulloner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuou View Post
You're right about being able to marry at 16, but if you're a minor you need permission from the parent/guardian.

On to this episode, hmm...there are times during this series where it's good enough that I forget JC Staff is making it. Then there are times during Toradora! where it feels really average and/or really reminds me that JC Staff is the one making it.

The episode was interesting, but it had its problems. There were some parts in this episode that I thought were pretty good though.
Story-wise I always forget, but then when I see the animation it reminds me.

Anyway does anyone have a good explanation as to where Yasuko went? She seems to have just disappeared into thin air. It's pretty sweet she trusts Ryuji with the house like that, but that 's not the point.
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Old 2009-03-18, 23:18   Link #130
Vexx
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Best guess is Ryuuji isn't clear on the legal details ... we'll hope grandparents have mellowed and rethought what is more important to them.

Odd how they're adapting/handling Taiga's mom so far....
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Old 2009-03-18, 23:50   Link #131
Ryuou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
J.C.Staff is not some sort of giant monolith that somehow forces all of its shows down some sort of single creative pipeline called "suck". What they are is a relatively large production company that can coordinate multiple large-scale productions with a relatively reliable level of animation quality. Every show has different directors, writers, producers, and other key staff. If anything, I'd say they're a "workhorse" studio; their animation work is consistently decent, like a well-oiled machine. The actual quality of the *adaptation* depends on the directing and of the writing staff, and a lot of those people don't even work for J.C.Staff (or might even have been assigned by the producers without J.C.Staff's input). So... it's really not that simple. If a show's animation production values are good, then you should credit the animation director and the production studio. But if the story adaptation quality is good, then you should credit the director, planner, writers, and storyboard artists. If you want to predict whether a show will be good or bad, you have to look beyond just which studio is working on it and consider all the key players (producers, publishers, key staff, etc.)

It's like people like to have like the one face they can blame if they don't like something. With the Haruhi 2 stuff, at first it was Kyoto Animation and everyone was "grrrr Kyoto Animation", and then finally someone convinced them that it wasn't Kyoto Animation, it's Kadokawa, and so then everyone was "grrrr Kadokawa". Business politics aren't so clean-cut. There's not one single bad guy or one single person to whom all decisions must flow, really (even if there is on paper, it doesn't work that way in real life). It's a mess of contracts, and committees, and boardroom meetings, and stupid requirements imposed by people who don't know anything but somehow got into positions of power due to be related to the boss's cousin's friend. I suppose, at the end of the day, if you have to have a single person to blame, you could point to the director, but even then who knows what circumstances there were surrounding the production that were beyond his or her control. Life just isn't so simple.
Haha, must you make my simple gripe so complicated. JC Staff is the production studio in charge of making the anime so I will place my blame on them for my issues with their anime. They are an entity that's image will reflect their good and bad productions. The politics of it donít matter. The entity is not void of blame. If it wants its image and consistency to improve, then maybe certain people should be replaced.

They are the production studio, they are responsible for who works on what, and are thus responsible for the quality of the product. And just like a certain level of quality can be expected from Kyoto Animation, there is a certain level of disaster that can be expected from JC Staff. They've built up their own reputation like KyoAni has. I usually donít get too concerned over animation. It would be the writers and directors that I have problems with.

For the case you mentioned where directors and writers are put in charge from the people above (funders), and it ends up turning out bad. Well, that would just kind of suck. But if itís not specified in the credits that thatís the case, and only names are there, then Iíll assume they work for JC Staff, or were hired for this job by them. If this were to happen on a consistent basis, then maybe they should make better decisions with who they deal with for an animation production.

I realize how crazy the industry can get at times, but thatís not a real excuse when quality anime is being produced elsewhere within the same industry. This isnít to say that JC Staff doesnít produce any quality anime; Iím just saying they produce a lot of bad. And then what really angers people, is their trouble with sequels.

So since itís easier this way, Iíll just blame JC Staff and their reputation, instead of looking up each director and writer for each episode that I thought the quality dipped.

Edit: Onto Toradora! - My guess would be that Ryuji and Taiga aren't thinking about it or are just unaware of the law. There's the law that minors can't have sex but they do it anyway. Maybe a bad example, but the law doesn't always factor into one's thought process.

What I find a little odd is the focus on Ryuji turning 18. Unlike the States where you become an adult at 18 except for a few things, as far as I know turning 18 means nothing in Japan. Turning 20 is when you become an adult. I could understand the 18 bit as it correlates with him graduating High School, but that's not really factoring into his plan at all. This seems really odd to me. Maybe the author's had too much contact with the States, or maybe the rules got changed since I've been away.

Last edited by Ryuou; 2009-03-19 at 00:01.
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Old 2009-03-19, 00:00   Link #132
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuou View Post
They are the production studio, they are responsible for who works on what, and are thus responsible for the quality of the product. And just like a certain level of quality can be expected from Kyoto Animation, there is a certain level of disaster that can be expected from JC Staff. They've built up their own reputation like KyoAni has. I usually don’t get too concerned over animation. It would be the writers and directors that I have problems with.
They're the animation production studio, but not always among the show's producers. And they're not always the one that do the series planning either -- for example, on a show like ZnT that they're often blamed for, Genco is specifically credited with production. How many other "bad sequels" have they done where, actually, they had nothing to do with the story? Has anyone checked? So, basically, that's why I'm saying it's not that simple. They get blamed even when they don't do the part of the job that people dislike, and hence I think their bad reputation is somewhat unjustified due to the oversimplification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuou View Post
But if it’s not specified in the credits that that’s the case, and only names are there, then I’ll assume they work for JC Staff, or were hired for this job by them. If this were to happen on a consistent basis, then maybe they should make better decisions with who they deal with for an animation production.
But the animation production company is not the top of the totem pole here. The production committee is. That's why they're the last name in the credits, because they're the ones ultimately funding the project and responsible for everything. Sometimes the animation production company is in the production committee, but sometimes they're just a contractor doing the job they're being paid to do. It's just convenient to blame them because they're the easiest name to remember.

Anyway... it's not that I'm really trying to single you out in particular, it's just that this argument comes up all the time, and it never really makes much sense when you dig deeper into the facts, that's all. Call it a pet peeve, I guess.
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Old 2009-03-19, 00:15   Link #133
Ryuou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
They're the animation production studio, but not always among the show's producers. And they're not always the one that do the series planning either -- for example, on a show like ZnT that they're often blamed for, Genco is specifically credited with production. So, basically, that's why I'm saying it's not that simple. They get blamed even when they don't do that part of the job.
I was going to bring up Genco as they do a lot of work with JC Staff. But since I don't know exactly how much the producing group has to do with the directing and writing (I separate production from directing and writing because I view it as more of the technical and business side of things. Incorrect?), I didn't know if I should blame them too. If you say they have a lot to do with it, then I'll drag them along as well from now on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
But the animation production company is not the top of the totem pole here. The production committee is. That's why they're the last name in the credits, because they're the ones ultimately funding the project and responsible for everything. Sometimes the animation production company is in the production committee, but sometimes they're just a contractor doing the job they're being paid to do. It's just convenient to blame them because they're the easiest name to remember.

Anyway... it's not that I'm really trying to single you out in particular, it's just that this argument comes up all the time, and it never really makes much sense when you dig deeper into the facts, that's all. Call it a pet peeve, I guess.
I know how the system works for the most part and in the cases were JC Staff is charged with solely animation and I still blame them, then I'll apologize to it in those cases. But these production committees come and go, and the only thing that remains fixed is JC Staff (and Genco). If there was a bad production infrequently here and there, then we could look outside of JC Staff for who to blame. But when we have consistent problems, then regardless of whether they are tasked with anything above animation, they can take blame for their poor business decisions. If all they care about is getting paid, then they shouldn't care about how the image of their studio is viewed. (Which may very well be the case.)
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Old 2009-03-19, 00:30   Link #134
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I realize how crazy the industry can get at times, but thatís not a real excuse when quality anime is being produced elsewhere within the same industry. This isnít to say that JC Staff doesnít produce any quality anime; Iím just saying they produce a lot of bad.
I don't think their track record is any worse than other studios following a similar production model. When you get right down to it, J.C. Staff is primarily a more reputable, larger-scale version of a typical contract studio.

They invest little of their own money in a show, reap little of the profit (quite possibly none in the case of GENCO-produced shows like Toradora!, Zero no Tsukaima, and Nodame Cantabile), and are strongly bound to the whims of the contractors/financiers.

That's a sharp contrast from more creation/studio-oriented productions like those of BONES, Gainax, Gonzo, etc.

Quote:
But when we have consistent problems, then regardless of whether they are tasked with anything above animation, they can take blame for their poor business decisions. If all they care about is getting paid, then they shouldn't care about how the image of their studio is viewed. (Which may very well be the case.)
It's the model they work under. One industry complaint is that with decreased profits, contractors are commissioning larger quantities of projects for less money and time. That has obvious effects on the quality of a product.

Now this isn't a good excuse, but the hit-or-miss track record (which characterizes the vast majority of these animation studios) shouldn't be unexpected.
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Old 2009-03-19, 00:35   Link #135
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Just because their engaged though doesn't necessarily mean they will immediately get married. If there really ARE laws in Japan stating anyone under 20 can't marry without parent permission, maybe their actual marriage plans were meant to happen later than sooner.
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Old 2009-03-19, 00:35   Link #136
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Well, regarding the production topic, we could go on and on about it, and actually I should probably create a separate thread in General if I could just come up with the right way of phrasing it -- I'll think about it. In any event, apologies for the slight tangent (though not totally unrelated to the show), and back to the main topic at hand (though I expect the main topic will remain somewhat quiet until the subs are released).
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Old 2009-03-19, 01:03   Link #137
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I was watching the bridge scene in HD on youtube and the snow effect is really cool. i think its the best animated snow I have seen. I also never realized just how compressed youtube audio was until I switched in the middle of the theme song over to HD.
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Old 2009-03-19, 01:13   Link #138
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considering that ruuji's mom is 33, and ruuji is 17, this put his mom being a minor when she is having ruuji. About being underage parents in anime/manga, there are actually a few example, solid example like Cardcaptor, sakura's mother, i think in maria holic, kanako mention that her mom was underaged too when she is married.
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Old 2009-03-19, 01:22   Link #139
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The director/series comp for Zero no Tsukaima, Shana, ToraDora are all different, yeah ZnT 2 and 3 were bad, but that doesn't mean you can lump everything onto JC Staff.

The director for ToraDora! doesn't even work for JC Staff, he's a freelancer and the last thing he did w/ them was Honey and Clover 2

Series comp was done by the same lady that did Kodomo no Jikan/Vampire Knight (both shows are pretty well adapted from their source).

Light novels are not always easy to adapt and especially ones that rely on inner monologue as much as Toradora does - but I think they did a pretty good job with Toradora and Toaru Majutsu no Index this season, much better adaptions than ZnT and Shana atleast, but that falls squarely on the director and series composition not on JC Staff.
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Old 2009-03-19, 01:26   Link #140
Ryuou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Well, regarding the production topic, we could go on and on about it, and actually I should probably create a separate thread in General if I could just come up with the right way of phrasing it -- I'll think about it. In any event, apologies for the slight tangent (though not totally unrelated to the show), and back to the main topic at hand (though I expect the main topic will remain somewhat quiet until the subs are released).
True and I'm sorry about my part in the tangent. I'll wait until you create something before I reply.

Edit: One last thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Man0warr View Post
but I think they did a pretty good job with Toradora and Toaru Majutsu no Index this season, much better adaptions than ZnT and Shana atleast
I can agree with Toradora!. But really? Granted I don't know the source material for Toaru at all, it's got some real problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kk2extreme View Post
About being underage parents in anime/manga, there are actually a few example, solid example like Cardcaptor, sakura's mother, i think in maria holic, kanako mention that her mom was underaged too when she is married.
There are also some extreme examples as well. I don't remember the name but there's one about an elementary school student mom. This kind of disturbs me.

For back on topic, what do you guys think about the issue of the age 18 that I brought up?
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