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Old 2009-03-14, 11:37   Link #21
Kieli
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Honestly, Saorin is such a b**ch that I am having a real hard time sympathising with her as a character. Shuu's sister is even worse. They're the two characters that I cannot stand overall. I keep wishing they'd get over themselves and see that other people are suffering because of their behaviour (and not just them).

I'm only up to Chapter 54 at the moment but I'm looking forward to Chapter 58 just to see Yoshino's new look. Poor Mako-chan....the kid's going to have a real complex when he gets older. I'd love it if this manga kept going until they graduate high school. It would be interesting to see how Shuu and Yoshino deal with their chosen identities beyond the sphere of family and childhood friends.
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Old 2009-03-14, 23:21   Link #22
frubam
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Spoiler for chp 59:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieli View Post
Honestly, Saorin is such a b**ch that I am having a real hard time sympathising with her as a character. Shuu's sister is even worse. They're the two characters that I cannot stand overall. I keep wishing they'd get over themselves and see that other people are suffering because of their behaviour (and not just them).
I can see why you or anyone else would think that about Chiba, but I just LOVE her personality. She's just a complex girl to understand. She really just wants to be loved by Shuu and nothing else, which makes me just want to root for her all the way. Maho, on the other hand, I'm feeling ya. I don't hate her, but I don't like her either. Sometimes it's justified(like Shuu wearing her clothes), but generally, when she's not with Seya, she tends to be really bitchy >.>

Last edited by frubam; 2009-03-14 at 23:35.
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Old 2009-03-16, 21:43   Link #23
Kieli
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Gah, tell me about it She's so obsessed with being "normal" she doesn't realise how abnormal-seeming her own obsession with her brother's fluid sexuality is. I think she wants him to change because it bothers her how popular Shuu is. He's adorable and just himself.

What I think is really gut-busting hilarious is..
Spoiler:


Honestly, though, Saorin needs to get over herself. She's in this "If I can't have him, no one can" phase that I never found attractive in women. Or men either
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Old 2009-03-18, 14:39   Link #24
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieli View Post
Honestly, Saorin is such a b**ch that I am having a real hard time sympathising with her as a character. Shuu's sister is even worse. They're the two characters that I cannot stand overall. I keep wishing they'd get over themselves and see that other people are suffering because of their behaviour (and not just them).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieli View Post
Honestly, though, Saorin needs to get over herself. She's in this "If I can't have him, no one can" phase that I never found attractive in women. Or men either
Sorry, but I can hardly see this at all. There is basically one instance of Chiba making 'other people' (just Takatsuki, actually) feel bad with some sort of self-righteous behaviour. Furthermore, if you remember, Takatsuki later realized that Chiba was right and decided to apologize to Nitori-kun. Any other instances of Saorin 'being a bitch' were products of her entirely self-aware prioritization of her relationships with people she was actually interested in.

Your second indictment hardly holds water either. Although Saorin obviously exhibits feelings of envy, resentment, and standoffishness, she has never actively interfered in the relationships of other people. All Saorin has ever done is withhold her own feelings of friendliness, and that is hardly anything anyone is entitled to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frubam View Post
I can see why you or anyone else would think that about Chiba, but I just LOVE her personality. She's just a complex girl to understand. She really just wants to be loved by Shuu and nothing else, which makes me just want to root for her all the way. Maho, on the other hand, I'm feeling ya. I don't hate her, but I don't like her either. Sometimes it's justified(like Shuu wearing her clothes), but generally, when she's not with Seya, she tends to be really bitchy >.>
It's a good thing this manga is (at this point) relatively short, because aside from the attractive character designs, Chiba is pretty much the only thing keeping me reading. Even now, Shuuichi and Takatuski's consistent placement on the front covers of every volume is discourages me regarding her future aspects. I don't think Saorin's character is fully encapsulated by 'someone with a fixation on Shuu'. Given what's shown in the most recent chapters, clearly she has discarded any expectations for him and is attempting to move forward with her other relationships; arguably not a bad thing (I am currently fairly happy for her, actually). How I would personally describe Saorin's character is 'someone who loves deeply and powerfully, in a subtle and perceptive way'. I am still astonished over the ease with which she percieved Shuuichi's innermost longings, and her wholehearted acceptance/encouragement of their expression.

Regarding the main issue with her character. I think one early scene with her mother (where she tries to give Shuuichi three dresses, then her mother advises her to start with just one) highlights it perfectly: Chiba might understand exactly what [the object of her love] desires, but she embraces it more fully then they themselves. To a degree it might be a matter of security (a return for her affections): if she can make Shuuchi accept three dresses, then he might necessarily feel bound to her by gratitude, right? Or, furthermore, in a more sinister manner: if she can encourage his inclinations towards crossdressing, to the point that he feels ostracized by society, then he might begin to turn to her as the only one who 'understands' and 'accepts' him. Saorin's actions (including her choice of Shuuichi in the first place, though I'm extrapolating here) basically all reflect the mentality of someone who feels deeply and wants to ensure she is felt deeply towards in return, to the point that her (early, at the least) actions are tinged with manipulation.

...Well. I feel like I could write two or three more large paragraphs analyzing Chiba's character/interactions as above today, but I'm gonna stop here in the interests of saving both your and my (primarily my) time.
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Old 2009-03-18, 17:47   Link #25
Kieli
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@Sol: Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Old 2009-03-19, 00:10   Link #26
frubam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
It's a good thing this manga is (at this point) relatively short, because aside from the attractive character designs, Chiba is pretty much the only thing keeping me reading. Even now, Shuuichi and Takatuski's consistent placement on the front covers of every volume is discourages me regarding her future aspects. I don't think Saorin's character is fully encapsulated by 'someone with a fixation on Shuu'. Given what's shown in the most recent chapters, clearly she has discarded any expectations for him and is attempting to move forward with her other relationships; arguably not a bad thing (I am currently fairly happy for her, actually). How I would personally describe Saorin's character is 'someone who loves deeply and powerfully, in a subtle and perceptive way'. I am still astonished over the ease with which she percieved Shuuichi's innermost longings, and her wholehearted acceptance/encouragement of their expression.
I don't really see a problem with Shuu and Yoshino being on the covers. It's all about the journey, not the destination. Despite the covers, the fact that Shuu and Yoshino hang out, converse, and cross-dress with each other far less than in their 5th grade year, not to mention that they've already passed the confession>rejection>moping faze and became 'normal' friends(just as much as anyone else) other than their cross-dressing excursions makes it easily quite tolerable. Shuu even has a diff partner(at least for now), and if that's so, it's not totally unbelievable Chiba will have a chance w/anyone, if that's within your line of thinking.

While I'll say that was an excellent analysis of Chiba's personality, i disagree with the "...clearly she has discarded any expectations for him and is attempting to move forward with her other relationships" part. It's hard to accept that when she was willing to not come to school after Yoshino told her Shuu was dating Anna. I feel that the fact that she was willing to skip school for any # of days with the intention of not going back for the rest of the year kinda points out how much value she had those other relationships. Perhaps that's changed in the latemost chapters; she seems to have accepted Yoshino as the next 'best' friend now(it was Sasa before she started hanging with Sarashina)but she still seems concerned about Shuu's actions; and by that, I'm specifically referring to how she acted in chp 59, when she stormed away when she overheard Shuu and Makoto talking. That doesn't seem like something someone who's forgotten, tossed away, or hidden her feelings(from the reader's perspective) would do, though I will agree that there's more to her char than just liking Shuu(though that's the aspect I like most about her).


Quote:
Regarding the main issue with her character. I think one early scene with her mother (where she tries to give Shuuichi three dresses, then her mother advises her to start with just one) highlights it perfectly: Chiba might understand exactly what [the object of her love] desires, but she embraces it more fully then they themselves. To a degree it might be a matter of security (a return for her affections): if she can make Shuuchi accept three dresses, then he might necessarily feel bound to her by gratitude, right? Or, furthermore, in a more sinister manner: if she can encourage his inclinations towards crossdressing, to the point that he feels ostracized by society, then he might begin to turn to her as the only one who 'understands' and 'accepts' him. Saorin's actions (including her choice of Shuuichi in the first place, though I'm extrapolating here) basically all reflect the mentality of someone who feels deeply and wants to ensure she is felt deeply towards in return, to the point that her (early, at the least) actions are tinged with manipulation.
Those are very interesting perspectives, but is that really in her character? She never seemed to be the type of person to use such subtle trickery and underhanded tactics and was more straightforward in that regard, though actually, I can't pretend to remember what happened before chapter 33; it's been too long since I read it . They DID work on that play though, and I recall her using that as an excuse to invite Shuu over and dress him up. But from the way she was acting, it's very hard for me to find any ill intent or unscrupulous motives in her doing that, other than wanting to make him happy by letting him do what he likes most, and being happy that her actions made him happy.

Last edited by frubam; 2009-03-19 at 09:30.
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Old 2009-03-19, 21:57   Link #27
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frubam View Post
I don't really see a problem with Shuu and Yoshino being on the covers. It's all about the journey, not the destination. Despite the covers, the fact that Shuu and Yoshino hang out, converse, and cross-dress with each other far less than in their 5th grade year, not to mention that they've already passed the confession>rejection>moping faze and became 'normal' friends(just as much as anyone else) other than their cross-dressing excursions makes it easily quite tolerable. Shuu even has a diff partner(at least for now), and if that's so, it's not totally unbelievable Chiba will have a chance w/anyone, if that's within your line of thinking.
Although Shuu and Yoshino don't see all that much of each other, I still wouldn't call their relationship 'normal friendship'. They have a fairly involved history with each other (as well as mutual acquaintances) and I think Takatsuki's calling off of that definately highlights some tensions. Again, given their prominent placement on the covers, I'm pretty certain their relationship is one of the central themes of this manga and will be revisited in the future. As for how that reflects on Chiba's role in the story, I suppose what I meant is that I'm discouraged because they aren't who I'm interested in and Chiba's ultimate status as a supporting character doesn't leave me confident I will be satisfied with the ending. It's not really that important though; that's just the way stories work, so I deal with it as I've done with others.

Quote:
While I'll say that was an excellent analysis of Chiba's personality, i disagree with the "...clearly she has discarded any expectations for him and is attempting to move forward with her other relationships" part. It's hard to accept that when she was willing to not come to school after Yoshino told her Shuu was dating Anna. I feel that the fact that she was willing to skip school for any # of days with the intention of not going back for the rest of the year kinda points out how much value she had those other relationships. Perhaps that's changed in the latemost chapters; she seems to have accepted Yoshino as the next 'best' friend now(it was Sasa before she started hanging with Sarashina)but she still seems concerned about Shuu's actions; and by that, I'm specifically referring to how she acted in chp 59, when she stormed away when she overheard Shuu and Makoto talking. That doesn't seem like something someone who's forgotten, tossed away, or hidden her feelings(from the reader's perspective) would do, though I will agree that there's more to her char than just liking Shuu(though that's the aspect I like most about her).
Well, I agree that Saorin hasn't abandoned her feelings or anything but that's why I chose the word 'expectations'. Basically what Chiba's most recent interactions with Shuuichi indicate to me is that she's recognized that her romantic feelings don't really mean anything to him (as he seemed to explicitly demonstrate by his dating Anna while keeping it a secret from her). As a result, she's decided to abandon the futile effort of showing them to him. Her genuine interest in Takatsuki (and Sasa, now, too: before Saorin would say things like how she didn't want to be 'responsible' for Sasa and that it was okay if she left her alone, but now she freely offers compliments about how cute she is and is actually engaged when they spend time together) reflects this shift in priorities: because she no longer expects anything from Shuuichi-kun, because she can no longer spend all her time being in love with him, she is taking a closer, more honest look at the other things around her.

With regards to that scene you mentioned in chapter 59, taking a closer look at it, I suppose it's pretty suggestive that she does still care what Nitori-kun does. But it's also pretty clear that she's holding her feelings back in response to the 'rejection' I mentioned in the above paragraph. I guess I must admit to having fallen in love with that page I linked above; she looked so grim and resigned, but I suppose even Saorin's 'you've broken me' face must falter when she discovers that Shuu's been talking about her.

Quote:
Those are very interesting perspectives, but is that really in her character? She never seemed to be the type of person to use such subtle trickery and underhanded tactics and was more straightforward in that regard, though actually, I can't pretend to remember what happened before chapter 33; it's been too long since I read it . They DID work on that play though, and I recall her using that as an excuse to invite Shuu over and dress him up. But from the way she was acting, it's very hard for me to find any ill intent or unscrupulous motives in her doing that, other than wanting to make him happy by letting him do what he likes most, and being happy that her actions made him happy.
I wouldn't really call Chiba's actions, at least regarding the three dresses, underhanded trickery (my other interpretation was, admittedly, a somewhat unsubstantiated extrapolation). I think it's just something natural to her, to want to deeply involved with someone. What I was sort of getting at was that, even intuitively, Saorin understood that the kind of personal investment she was making in Shuu just wasn't feasible if it wasn't reciprocated. As a result, a lot of her (early) interaction with Shuuichi is tinged with the desire to bind him to her. Of course, someone asking too much of you is also something one can feel intuitively, so this lead to Shuu being more comfortable in his more 'natural' relationships with Takatsuki and eventually Anna. I think it was only really this factor that might have held back Shuuichi's interest in Chiba. Interestingly though, Shuuichi makes the very same mistake in confessing to Yoshino (asking too much, not being natural). Heh, I dunno. It's rather tragic, I suppose.
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Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Sailor Moon Crystal 20/5 :: Hanayamata 28/5 :: Locodol 50/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Sabagebu 28/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
Fall: Sora no Method 21/5 :: Karen Senki 6/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5 :: Shirobako 22/5 :: Yuuki Yuuna 23/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Sonohana twitter follow campaign: mikajyo_info :: rewards (anime adaptation if they reach 50000!!)
Exceptional shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Solace; 2009-03-27 at 04:25. Reason: Removed link to licensed content.
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Old 2009-03-20, 19:29   Link #28
frubam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Basically what Chiba's most recent interactions with Shuuichi indicate to me is that she's recognized that her romantic feelings don't really mean anything to him (as he seemed to explicitly demonstrate by his dating Anna while keeping it a secret from her). As a result, she's decided to abandon the futile effort of showing them to him.
Wouldn't that mean the opposite? I mean, if Shuu didn't care, he wouldn't have been so adamant in trying to keep the truth from her. He even talked about it in front of Yoshino. I'm not trying to insinuate that he harbors hidden feelings of love for Saorin or anything as that'd be how I think in stereotypical terms of manga, but he must have felt some anxiety about telling her.

Last edited by Solace; 2009-03-27 at 04:25. Reason: Removed quoted link
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Old 2009-03-21, 17:28   Link #29
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Spoiler for chp 60 ~ 62:
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Old 2009-03-22, 20:50   Link #30
Kieli
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Spoiler for chp 60 ~ 62:
I'm not surprised either. Her insecurity kind of showed a bit when she:
Spoiler:
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Last edited by Kieli; 2009-03-22 at 21:54. Reason: added a couple observations
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Old 2009-03-23, 07:16   Link #31
Sol Falling
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Heh. It's just you guys here, seems like. A bit quiet (I don't want to stand out), but then again I also don't know if that makes spoiler tags really necessary (correct me if you want).

I'm a bit concerned about how Maho's been treated lately. A while back her character's focus seemed to be about how she was learning not to be judgemental and to stand up for her brother, but her two latest issues (ignoring Shuu because she had made friends, being jealous of Shuu because she feels threatened by his prettiness) seem strictly negative. I don't want to think badly about Maho, as she's impressed me as a person on more than one occassion, but it seems like that's the way the story is pushing her.

I also loved the karaoke with all the girls. When Anna told Takatsuki to join her agency, it really highlighted my feeling of "wow, this is a bit of a fated meeting of hot girls". Anna's character has always been attractive to me in a way similar to Chiba's (they're both rather...straightforward, somehow; without regard for superficial displays of friendliness) but I find Chiba more interesting because while Anna's bluntness seems to be founded in self-confidence I'd say Chiba's stems from her desire for deep (non-superficial) relations with others. Anyways, damn, Chiba really knows how to put down others. That line about "I suppose some men are indecisive like that" had me rolling.
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Old 2009-03-23, 23:06   Link #32
Kieli
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Heh. It's just you guys here, seems like. A bit quiet (I don't want to stand out), but then again I also don't know if that makes spoiler tags really necessary (correct me if you want).
Heh heh, it's a bit of a habit, I guess. Didn't want to spoil anything just in case there were people lurking.

Quote:
I'm a bit concerned about how Maho's been treated lately. A while back her character's focus seemed to be about how she was learning not to be judgemental and to stand up for her brother, but her two latest issues (ignoring Shuu because she had made friends, being jealous of Shuu because she feels threatened by his prettiness) seem strictly negative. I don't want to think badly about Maho, as she's impressed me as a person on more than one occassion, but it seems like that's the way the story is pushing her.
Interestingly enough, I agree with your assessment. I'm not a big Maho fan but this seems a bit much, even for her. For a little while, I thought she was making at least some strides towards maturing and understanding perhaps a little of what Shuu might be going through. The last couple of chapters seem to be unraveling her progress.

Quote:
I find Chiba more interesting because while Anna's bluntness seems to be founded in self-confidence I'd say Chiba's stems from her desire for deep (non-superficial) relations with others. Anyways, damn, Chiba really knows how to put down others. That line about "I suppose some men are indecisive like that" had me rolling.
This I find puzzling. How can one have deep, non-superficial relations with someone when it seems like they're constantly putting people down with every word they utter? I honestly can't see Chiba as something more than rude. But that's just my personal obseravtion. Takatsuki, OTOH, is starting to worry me with her recent tendency to just blurt out other people's secrets under pressure. This unintentional reflex may have severe consequences once other characters are introduced (such as Doi).
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Old 2009-03-25, 01:04   Link #33
Sol Falling
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This I find puzzling. How can one have deep, non-superficial relations with someone when it seems like they're constantly putting people down with every word they utter? I honestly can't see Chiba as something more than rude. But that's just my personal obseravtion. Takatsuki, OTOH, is starting to worry me with her recent tendency to just blurt out other people's secrets under pressure. This unintentional reflex may have severe consequences once other characters are introduced (such as Doi).
Heh, it's hardly constant :P. Saorin's reaction towards Takatsuki in that specific instance was based on her cluelessness/insensitivity in agreeing to hang out with Shuu and his girlfriend. That's the same cluelessness, btw, that led her to blurt out what she imagined to be a pacifier in order to 'explain' Chiba's confrontational behaviour. Chiba's just a lot more perceptive than others, and correspondingly quite a bit less forgiving. She may seem like she's rude, sometimes, but she's just trying to live by a higher standard.

As for Takatsuki blurting out secrets, I thought you were just talking about at the karaoke bar, but you're actually also referring to when she told Chiba about Anna, right? Hm, you do have a point that that makes it twice now...on the other hand, the circumstances are a bit different in that for the first one I think she told Chiba out of selfishness, in some minor sort of attempt to hurt her (or Shuu indirectly) while in the more recent case that was more of her attempt to stop (what she saw as) a pending catfight. We'll have to see if those kinds of situations come up again.
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Fall: Sora no Method 21/5 :: Karen Senki 6/5 :: Cross Ange 1/5 :: Shirobako 22/5 :: Yuuki Yuuna 23/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Sonohana twitter follow campaign: mikajyo_info :: rewards (anime adaptation if they reach 50000!!)
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Old 2009-03-25, 03:38   Link #34
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Wow, chapter 65 was....amazing. Now I'm depressed that we won't be seeing any chapters for a while.
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Old 2009-03-25, 04:18   Link #35
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Wow, chapter 65 was....amazing. Now I'm depressed that we won't be seeing any chapters for a while.
It's possible that chapter 66 to 70 will be released shortly, probably starting at the end of the week.
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Old 2009-03-25, 04:29   Link #36
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It's possible that chapter 66 to 70 will be released shortly, probably starting at the end of the week.
Really? That's great! The message at the end of the chapter indicated the translator was having difficulty getting scans for volume 9, sounds like that was worked out. ^^
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Old 2009-03-25, 04:36   Link #37
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Really? That's great! The message at the end of the chapter indicated the translator was having difficulty getting scans for volume 9, sounds like that was worked out. ^^
On /a/ when chapter 65 has been released, a kind anon has uploaded the raw for chapter 66 to 70. Problem resolved in less than 10 minutes
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Old 2009-03-25, 04:37   Link #38
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On /a/ when chapter 65 has been released, a kind anon has uploaded the raw for chapter 66 to 70. Problem resolved in less than 10 minutes
Lmao, chan has an answer for everything.
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Old 2009-03-26, 14:55   Link #39
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Spoiler for chp ~ 65:
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Originally Posted by Miles Teg View Post
It's possible that chapter 66 to 70 will be released shortly, probably starting at the end of the week.
That's good to hear. This cliffhanger reminds me of 6 months ago . Hopefully it won't be TOO long before we get to see the next chapter.

Last edited by Solace; 2009-03-27 at 04:01. Reason: Don't link to sites with licensed content.
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Old 2009-03-27, 04:23   Link #40
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Join Date: Mar 2006
The conversation between Shuu and Saorin is just her being herself, using a random comment to get a reaction. Her comment to Takatsuki in the bathroom is similar, a vague and random statement that only Saorin really gets and causes others to go "what the hell was that?".

It's just part of her personality, which is why she gets so flustered when Takatsuki blurts out that Saorin likes Shuu later in the chapter. She usually keeps most of her emotions to herself, except for her random outbursts of "irrational" behavior, so she was taken off guard by someone saying out loud how she felt about someone else. Usually she's the one making the bold (if sometimes head scratching) statements.
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